<BJKlein> Topic: "Advances in Cryonics"
<BJKlein> Members will discuss some of the procedural advancements being made in cryonics. How successful were the methods of the past and how far have we come today? Members will talk about information preservation within the brain and what are the thresholds beyond which an identity is irrevocably lost.
<MRAmes> Welcome OcsRazor.
<BJKlein> (if you're here, bravo! to hell with football
<OcsRazor> Hello all
<BJKlein> Welcome Back OcsRazor
<OcsRazor> not much of football fan
<OcsRazor> the neurolab is empty tonight though!
<BJKlein> excellent
<MichaelA> You work there on Sundays usually?
<OcsRazor> Sunday nights is usually crunch time around here
<MRAmes> For all students.
<OcsRazor> before the proffs get back on monday
<MRAmes> And demand the results.
<OcsRazor> exactly!
<BJKlein> OcsRazor, do you know Charles Platt?
<OcsRazor> I don't think so
<BJKlein> Alcor pres I believe
<Eliezer> no, SF author
<BJKlein> I hope John_Venturville will make it tonight.. he's seen a actual suspension
<Eliezer> hm, apparently one of the founders of CryoCare too
<BJKlein> Eliezer: that too
<OcsRazor> I went on standby for a susp, but never actually did it, trained though
<MRAmes> On Subject: Even with the (somewhat slow) progress that is being made with freezing techniques, it still doesn't seem like a good bet yet.
<Eliezer> Charles Platt is Director of Suspension Services
<OcsRazor> I met Lemler just as he was starting
<OcsRazor> as Pres
<Eliezer> Ames, I think jumping into a vat of liquid nitrogen would be a good bet when you consider the likely revivification technology
<MRAmes> There have been very, very few successful 'thawings' to my knowledge, and those have been with very low-order creatures.
<BJKlein> MRAmes: well, point is Cryonics is the only option to death now
<MRAmes> Eliezer: Its better than dying, for sure, but it liek a choice between bad and worse right now.
<OcsRazor> I'm pretty pessimistic right now
<OcsRazor> but it is the only option
<MRAmes> With that I would agree... if death is imminent.
<Eliezer> Ames: I'm not as sure of that, I have a feeling that if you read out the entire frozen brain atom by atom, you could get complete personality preservation of a severed head that just got tossed into a vat of liquid nitrogen, to say nothing of a vitrification suspension
<OcsRazor> did anybody read the recent Kurzweil/Drexler talk
<BJKlein> OcsRazor, so you're take the risk of death.. and measuring the cost of cryonics membership vs the benefits?
<MichaelA> OcsRazor: yep
<MRAmes> E: I have that intuition also... but: intuition isn't always correct.
<BJKlein> Eliezer: I agree, if you save all the information, if you get to it before the cells degenerate, you can save identity
<OcsRazor> If I could completely trust a cryo organization, I would continue
<Eliezer> the fact that vitrification is an enormous improvement over tossing a head into liquid nitrogen, or that there will be enormous improvements in the future, should not blind us to the amount of computing power that could be thrown at the problem at the other end
<MichaelA> OcsRazor: didn't they continue the exchange with Robert Bradbury, I believe it was? I didn't read the second article (I believe there was one), just the first one.
<OcsRazor> I completely agree that vitrification is a vast improvement
<MRAmes> I guess my reluctance (with cryonics) is a money *thing*. The question: "where is the best place to put my hard earned cash" looms large.
<Eliezer> depends whether you have a selfish bone in your body
<MRAmes> Would it be better to try to a) bring on the singularity or b) preserve myself via freezing.
<OcsRazor> Not sure I trust anyone out there right now
<BJKlein> MichaelA do you have that link?
<MichaelA> Getting now
<MRAmes> If I only have enough money for one or the other, which do I pick?
<OcsRazor> alcor is still the best as far as tech
<Eliezer> you shouldn't think of it as an alternative to Singularity spending; that's "altruistic" spending. Cryonics life insurance is an alternative to, I don't know, beer
<MichaelA> http://www.kurzweila......html?m=5#533
<OcsRazor> cryo isn't that expensive
<MRAmes> heh
<OcsRazor> ~400 a year + insurance
<MRAmes> Eliezer: But that is said by someone living in the US. In Canada right now, there are no facilities.
<Eliezer> BJKlein: how much do cells have to degenerate before it's no longer possible to throw an enormous amount of computing power at the problem and extrapolate back the high-level ordering of the original brain that degenerated?
<BJKlein> and those our age can get insurance for <$15month
<Eliezer> Ames: good point
<BJKlein> Eliezer: if you ask Tipler, there is no threshold.. that's one extreme
<MRAmes> OcsRazor: It is a *lot* more than $400/year. Try $150/month (Cdn).
<OcsRazor> EL not very much, thats why I'm pessimistic
<OcsRazor> Whose service MRA
<MichaelA> I would think the damage threshold is considerably high
<BJKlein> the other extreme is proably something like the deathist idea that you die and are gone after your last breath...
<MRAmes> Ocs: It was with Standard Life life insurance...
<OcsRazor> Michael it is not very high at all
<OcsRazor> MRA, guess it depends on age and location
<MRAmes> Ocs: Not connected with a specific Cryonics company right now.
<MichaelA> But any guesses we make would be based on our own previous experience with reconstructive technology
<BJKlein> but I would guess.. something like 2hrs?
<OcsRazor> I pay $9 US a month
<BJKlein> that's when the cells start to break down
<MRAmes> Ocs: That's low
<OcsRazor> about right BJ
<OcsRazor> the reason I brought up the Kurzweil talk...
<MRAmes> Ocs: I was talking with Ettinger, and booked a visit with his organization... nice place.
<BJKlein> the cellular walls start to break down and the neurons start to disform
<OcsRazor> is because neither of those guys seem to be reading the neuro literature
<MichaelA> Example?
<MRAmes> Ocs: But it was still a very small organisation, much smaller than Alcor.
<MichaelA> They probably read the relatively popular stuff
<OcsRazor> the critical structure for long term memory formation is dendritic spines
<OcsRazor> this is only coming out very recently
<BJKlein> therefore, I believe that for cryonics to really work.. you need a degenerative illness, so that a standby team could be in place
<OcsRazor> spines are not very stable without a blood supply
<OcsRazor> that is why I'm pessimistic
<OcsRazor> agreed BJ
<BJKlein> yes, so.. that's why you see many people moving to AZ
<Eliezer> ocs: the question is whether the spines degenerate in such a way that it is no longer possible to extrapolate back their original connections given the final degenerative state
<Eliezer> and given effectively infinite computing power
<OcsRazor> from what we have seen spines don't equal dendrites necessarily
<MRAmes> When I looked into the logistics of 'getting frozen' I figured that the Cryonics Institute was the closest (Detroit). But the logistics in transporting a freshly dead body over the border were rather problematic to pre-arrange.
<MRAmes> You really need a team helping you.
<OcsRazor> dendrites can have many many spines
<OcsRazor> Ettinger is a great guy, they just aren't as well organized and tech capable as alcor
<OcsRazor> more momentum
<MRAmes> yeah
<MRAmes> But its a 6 hour flight.
<BJKlein> thus for those who are young, like us, and who don't live in AZ, one should be extra careful not to drive without a seatbelt, or do anything silly
<MRAmes> BJ: Thus, I'm selling my motorcycle this year.
<MichaelA> Ocs: so what structures were Kurzweil and Drexler postulating as the memory-holders, then? The interconnective map itself, or something knowably more stable after death?
* BJKlein claps
* MRAmes sighes
* BJKlein group hug
* BJKlein fans the flams
<OcsRazor> Mike: dendritic strucutre
* MRAmes says thanks.
<OcsRazor> I keep going back and forth on whether to get a bike
* BJKlein had a bike in college
<BJKlein> silly me
* MRAmes tell BJ that he's been riding for 23 years, and is bound to miss it terribly...
<BJKlein> There is an art to living a thrilling life without risking your life
<OcsRazor> I'm trying to find my insurance agents web page
<Eliezer> Ocs: how would details of memories be carried in spinal structure?
<OcsRazor> for MRA and others
<BJKlein> or without unwarrented risk.. i'm having a thrill right now in this chat..
<BJKlein> with little risk of death
<MRAmes> Question: Do cryo-protectants destroy important information in the brain? Is there proof that they don't?
<OcsRazor> Dendritic spines are very tiny structures on dendrites
<OcsRazor> MRA, vitrification, probably not
<MRAmes> Probably?
<MRAmes> I want something better than that.
<OcsRazor> research currnetly being conducted at www.21cm.com
<OcsRazor> Greg Fahy is worlds expert
<MRAmes> hmm... thanks for the link.
<MRAmes> I guess my point would be, would freezing *without* protectants make it easier or more difficult to reconstruct the brain?
<OcsRazor> and Brian Wowk
<OcsRazor> much more difficult MRA
<OcsRazor> straight freeze causes huge amounts of damage
<MRAmes> Sure the 'gross structure' is preserved with protectants, but what about the subtler chemical details?
<OcsRazor> not clear yet
<MRAmes> Aren't those obliterated?
<MRAmes> yeah... not clear... that's what I thought.
<MRAmes> drat.
<BJKlein> it seems to me there's a measure of chaos in a freezing process, thus there may be problems there in nanotech reforming the information
<OcsRazor> 21cm is doing electron micrographs of rabbit brains after vit and n2 freeze
<OcsRazor> not sure what the results are
<BJKlein> this same chaos would prevent a Tipler type 'resurection'
<MRAmes> I guess the answer to my question depends upon how much of a 'person' is stored in the transitory chemical states, and how much in the grosser structure... any ideas?
<MichaelA> Depends on how precise your definition of "self" is
<OcsRazor> yep, thats what I was talking about with Eliezer
* BJKlein thinks more in the structure like say 90%
<MichaelA> Some individuals might tolerate a looser approximation of themselves
<MRAmes> Still, BJ, I want 100% back, not 90%!!!!
<BJKlein> all or none?
<BJKlein> heh
<OcsRazor> Kurz and Drex were talking about this issue, but they don't understand the fine details
<MRAmes> They haven't focussed on his area of reasearch.
<MRAmes> yet.
<BJKlein> i'd rather come back with an alzheimers like memory than not come back at all
<OcsRazor> dendritic structure is the large scale wiring diagram
<MichaelA> Since one might say that context also contributes a lot to an individual, and context is likely to be changed when these individuals are revived, some people wouldn't even consider their revived self to be "them" at all, regardless on how well their brain is reconstructed
<MichaelA> OcsRazor: but the dendritic spines are where the memories actually are?
<MRAmes> BJ: yeah... but might as well shoot for 140% and get only 100%, eh?
<BJKlein> man, I just heard a Canadian accent on chat, eh?
<MRAmes> MichaelA: Hmmm... I would wish to deal with contextual problem *after* surviving...
<OcsRazor> you are defintiely not going to recover short term memory after freeze
<MRAmes> BJ: Well, of course.
<OcsRazor> ~12 hours
<MRAmes> Ocs: yeah... that's not too bad.
<OcsRazor> but that is probably acceptable
<OcsRazor> 21cm is shooting for perfect structural preservation
<BJKlein> did you say you've met Fahy?
<OcsRazor> Good friend, he wrote one of my reccs to grad school
<MichaelA> MRA: Yep, but if your philosophy didn't even consider you to "really" be you, even after "surviving", then the effort would be considered moot, right?
<MichaelA> Sort of the problem people have with uploading, but a milder version
<OcsRazor> I should drop him an email to see how things are going BJ
<Eliezer> the thing to remember about cryonics is that humans are very poor problem solvers, extremely inefficient in their cognition, such that they always demand enormously more information than is necessary to solve a problem
<BJKlein> yeh.. tell him he has a fan in Alabama
<Eliezer> the question is not whether a frozen brain contains enough information to be solved by humanlike thinking
<Eliezer> but whether a frozen brain contains enough information in an information-theoretical sense
<MRAmes> MichaelA: yeah... for some that might be a big problem. I don't have that problem.
<OcsRazor> I agree eliezer, and that critical info is going to be these spines I keep going on about
<OcsRazor> they are the point connections between axons and dendrites in the brain
<OcsRazor> preserving them is critical to getting a full wiring diagram
<Eliezer> well, first, let's take a look at what a single element of information in a frozen brain consists of
<Eliezer> it does not consist of a preserved physical connection
<OcsRazor> no?
<MRAmes> what then?
<Eliezer> a physical connection which degenerates in a predictable way, in such a way that there is an N-to-N mapping between original states and degenerative states, preserves all information if the degeneration process can be reversed
<MRAmes> Ah... so, as long as there is enough info to back-track... your saying, we've got it made?
<Eliezer> a physical connection which degenerates entropically from one of, say, 65,536 possible original states, to one of 128 states, in such a way that around 512 originals map to any one degenerative state, has lost 9 bits of information and preserved 7 bits of information
<Eliezer> now, the next thing to remember is that these bits of information are not like bits in a file
<Eliezer> they are bits in an information-theoretical sense
<Eliezer> for example, we can imagine a case where a superintelligence has already deduced that your brain can only have had one of 128 alternate histories given its final state
<Eliezer> then the superintelligence reads off that degenerated physical connection we were just talking about
<Eliezer> and each of the alternate histories maps to a different one of the 65,536 original states which maps to a different one of the 128 degenerative states
<Eliezer> then that one degenerated connection
<Eliezer> can be enough to tell the SI which of the 128 possible histories was really yours
<Eliezer> moreover, absolutely any property which is stable under freezing, can be a hint, regardless of whether it is a property that would ordinarily be used in neural information-processing
<Eliezer> if state A of a neuron predictably leads to atom X being in position Y after freezing, while state B leads to atom X being in position Z after freezing, then that atom can be used to distinguish the two possible states
<BJKlein> so basically, if you preserve it with a certain degree of exactness.. you'll see success on the reanimation end.
<Eliezer> now... how many hints are there in a *whole frozen brain*?
<BJKlein> but if you mess things up to far, you wont?
<MRAmes> Well... *that* is the big question in'it.
<OcsRazor> but if you wipe out all spines, which may be likely with current tech, you have very little info to work with
<OcsRazor> just ultrastructure
<Eliezer> BJK: I'm saying something much more complicated than that... I'm saying that whether cryonic revivification is massively overdetermined (successful) will depend on how much all those hints are correlated to each other (bad) or independent of each other (good)
* BJKlein has a thick skull
<MichaelA> "Wipe out" for humans in 2002 might be considered "slightly perturbed" when you throw more processing power at the problem, but most folks probably wouldn't buy that
<MichaelA> As long as reconstructing the original state from the degenerative state doesn't require a combinatorially large quantity of computing power, that is
<Eliezer> whether that happens depends on very tricky information-theoretical properties of the brain and of the degeneration process
<Eliezer> the amount by which hints tend to correlate closely with each other, locally, but be independent of each other globally; if that happens it's bad
<Eliezer> if all the hints in the brain are information about each other globally, then cryonic revival is almost guaranteed given enough computing power
<BJKlein> connecting the dots
<OcsRazor> alot of information structure is coming out now
<Eliezer> well, let's take OcsRazor's problem with spinal structure
<Eliezer> let's say there are two alternate equally plausible memories a human might have
<Eliezer> if the difference between those two memories is expressed *only* in a difference between two spinal structures that degenerate into exactly the same physical state
<Eliezer> you're toast
<OcsRazor> which they would ;^)
<Eliezer> if the difference between those two memories makes billions of little differences all over the brain, or rather the final degenerative state of the brain, then you can get it back
<Eliezer> memories intertwined with other memories
<Eliezer> differences in positioning of dendrites, whether or not used in information-processing, and so on
<OcsRazor> dendrites without stimulation revert back to smooth state very quickly
<OcsRazor> and you lose all info about how they were connected to neighboring cells
<Eliezer> you're looking at it from the perspective of remaining properties relevant to information-processing, not the perspective of being able to count individual atoms on the surface and try to extrapolate back what the spinal structure was based on what the surface reverted to
<Eliezer> neural information is not Information Theory "information"
<Eliezer> any distinguishable difference at the atomic level remaining after degeneration is information
<OcsRazor> there are probably four different physical basis for memory...
<OcsRazor> I would say 2 are easily recoverable
<OcsRazor> the third, difficult, the fourth impossible
<Eliezer> list 'em
<OcsRazor> #1 is very long term
<OcsRazor> that is absolutely hard wired
<OcsRazor> in the dendritic structure
<OcsRazor> easy to get back as long as you don't slice things up
<Eliezer> you mean, the large-scale synaptic pattern of axon-dendrite connections? ok
<OcsRazor> yep
<OcsRazor> that is why old people remember stuff from their youth
<OcsRazor> but not from today
<Eliezer> Ocs, in keeping with the information-theory perspective I'm taking, it's easy to get back even *if* you slice things up, providing that after the slices there are still enough physical differences remaining to distinguish among possible prior states, which seems like a near certainty
<OcsRazor> exactly, no problem here
<OcsRazor> so basic personality, and very old memories are most likely recoverable
<Eliezer> furthermore, as long as there's information-theoretical entanglement in the elements of the synaptic pattern, especially entanglement which is relevant to the higher-level properties you're trying to read out, losing information in one place may not be a problem as long as there is any distinguishable correlation elsewhere
<Eliezer> we're not talking about the net's ability to repair itself but the ability of an SI to distinguish between plausible prior states given the final state as evidence
<Eliezer> it's like looking at your shoelace to determine whether it's tied or untied
<MRAmes> So, Eliezer, you are saying that it is not the "preserved physical connection" that is absolutely necessary, just that you have a good enough hint about the original connection so that it could be fabricated... right?
<OcsRazor> Ok lets take the other end #4
<MRAmes> Ocs: #2?
<Eliezer> Ames: roughly
<Eliezer> eh, let's go to #4
<OcsRazor> working memory, that is gone
<Eliezer> massively inefficient human information-processing will take in an entire retinal input, reconstruct an entire 3D picture of the shoelace pixel by pixel and voxel by voxel
<OcsRazor> I don't see anyway to recover that
<MRAmes> Working memory is not a big loss...
<OcsRazor> it is in the electrical activity
<Eliezer> but how many photons would you need to read if each and every photon were treated as Bayesian information about the plausible space of prior shoelace configurations?
<OcsRazor> that structure is not preserved
<OcsRazor> the photons are gone, aren't they?
*** Retrieving #immortal info...
<Eliezer> you would not need an entire retinal input, you could probably make do with 5 randomly selected photons from the retinal input
<OcsRazor> as soon as you shut off blood supply, no more activity ~2 min
<Eliezer> Ocs: the question is whether *any* photons are left, any distinguishable hint whatsoever, any difference in the prior state that still makes a difference in the final physical state considered on an atom-by-atom basis
<PD> So what are we talking about? SI recovering frozen memory?
<Eliezer> yes, you've lost the entire retinal input that a *human* would need to tell whether the shoelace is untied
<Eliezer> but a human requires *massively more information* than an efficient reasoner would need
<OcsRazor> where are the photons you are talking about though?
<Eliezer> you don't need an entire retinal input; 5 randomly selected photons might be enough
<OcsRazor> I would say that info is completely wiped out, no photons at all
<Eliezer> for working memory, you mean?
<OcsRazor> yep
<Eliezer> possibly, possibly
<Eliezer> as Ames points out, it's not all that important
<BJKlein> PD, sup?
<OcsRazor> not bad a few hours
<OcsRazor> OK system 2 and 3, here are the problems
<PD> Not much; reading a book
<Eliezer> but working memory might easily leave a difference of a half-nanometer in the position of some neurotransmitters, a 1% difference in the filling of some vesicle
<BJKlein> PD, you know much about Cryonics?
<Eliezer> ok, 2 and 3
<PD> Not really
<OcsRazor> system 2 is relatively long term memory
<OcsRazor> system 3 is memory in the process of being written from short to long
<Eliezer> wait, so this whole time, the most you've been worried about is waking up with two weeks amnesia?
<OcsRazor> system 2 could be years
<OcsRazor> not clear yet
<Eliezer> but you think system 2 is retrievable
<OcsRazor> probably depending on the age of memory
<OcsRazor> the dendritic spines become more stable with age
<OcsRazor> develop firmer connections
<OcsRazor> a lot of rodent evidence that every time you learn something you form more spines
<MRAmes> Hmm... didn't know that.
<MRAmes> Got a URL?
<OcsRazor> dendrite-axon connections get more robust
<BJKlein> Pic of dendritic spines: http://www.riken.go....tic/result.html
<MRAmes> thx
<OcsRazor> I've got a few good refs
<OcsRazor> OK in that pic the little bulbs on the "wires" are spines
<OcsRazor> spines are constantly changing
<BJKlein> ahh, and there's the timelaps video .
<Eliezer> sorry, I need to ask a beginner's question; do these spines correspond to synaptic connections, or do they affect dendritic information processing?
<OcsRazor> they are synapses
<Eliezer> okay
<OcsRazor> I think we might have some pics on our site too, let me look
*MRAmes* url for time lapse?
<Eliezer> so there are three critical questions for cryonics here
<Eliezer> one, if you freeze a dog at the typical preservation time of a cryonics patient, are the spines still there, or are they totally gone?
<Eliezer> two, what about if you use vitrification?
<Eliezer> three, and this is the life-or-death question
<Eliezer> can you look at a frozen neuron with an electron microscope or STP and tell where a spine was?
<OcsRazor> yes, yes and yes!
<BJKlein> Kurz says: "With regard to cryonics reanimation, I fully agree with you that preserving structure (i.e., information) is the key requirement, that it is not necessary to preserve cellular functionality." FALSE?
<OcsRazor> that is what Fahy is currently doing
<OcsRazor> Kurz is correct up to a point
<Eliezer> though... actually, I sorta suspect that even with the spines totally gone, there'd still be enough Information (Bayesian hints) embedded in the gross position of major dendritic trunks to reconstruct a complete personality
<OcsRazor> BJ you need to preserve it long enough so the cells don't suck their spines back in
<OcsRazor> El for long term memory yes
<BJKlein> ahh.. so that's what happens after death?
<BJKlein> the spines get sucked in with structural failure?
<Eliezer> Ocs, are you sure that even if the cells suck their spines in, you can't read them out atom by atom and be able to tell that there *used* to be a deformation in cell structure at this location?
<Eliezer> loss of neural information is not the same as loss of Information
<OcsRazor> thats what worries, neurons will sometimes retract whole axons, quick
<Eliezer> hm... I agree that does sound troublesome
<BJKlein> and that happens with what timeframe?
<Eliezer> what's the timescale?
<BJKlein> heh
<OcsRazor> ~30 min
<BJKlein> yikes
<MRAmes> ooo..bad
<OcsRazor> quick freeze is critical
<OcsRazor> loss of O2 and glucose to brain is extremely dangerous
<OcsRazor> cells go into survival mode
<Eliezer> so you might actually *be* better off chopping off your head into a vat of liquid nitrogen right away
<MRAmes> Swish - plonk!
<OcsRazor> maybe el, except for the large scae damage
<Eliezer> has anyone looked at the brain of a dog preserved under the typical conditions of a cryonics patient to determine whether synaptic structure survives?
<BJKlein> a standby team is essential or i've heard about one idea..that may grant more time. a case to go aroud the head while still attached to the body.. lower the core temp
<Eliezer> Ocs: what large scale damage? freezing? I don't think that's dangerous
<BJKlein> would lowering the temp grant more time?
<OcsRazor> lots of destruction of whole cells in quick N2 freeze
<OcsRazor> yes BJ...
<Eliezer> Ocs: there is *no such thing* as damage, there is only *irrecoverable information loss*
<MRAmes> What we really need is a cryoprotectant that can be absorbed by a *living* brain.
<Eliezer> it doesn't matter if the cells burst open as long as they burst open in such a way that it is computationally feasible to determine what the original cell looked like
<MRAmes> Any sign of that yet?
<OcsRazor> exactly El, as long as most of the cell is still there
<Eliezer> it sounds to me like the crystal freezing process, even if it tears a cell to shreds, might leave more recoverable hints than a cell retracting a whole axon or dendrite
<OcsRazor> I think what Greg was worried about is that large sections of tissue were being displaced
<Eliezer> it doesn't matter if the spines are embedded in a jigsaw puzzle as long as they're there
<Eliezer> large sections?
<Eliezer> large sections are as easy to match up as the continents and Pangaea
<OcsRazor> my opinion too El, that the biological reaction to death might be more dangerous that "cracking"
<MRAmes> Is displacement really a problem though? I wouldn't have thought so.
<OcsRazor> than cracking
<OcsRazor> I'm not sure, we need to Greg Fahy or Brian Wowk in here to answer questions on damage
<Eliezer> so what we have is the alternative hypothesis: "Forget vitrification, just chop off your head and drop it into liquid nitrogen *the instant* you die."
<BJKlein> so, it may be better, as you say OcsRazor, to just deep freeze.. flash freeze is that what 21cm is doing?
<MRAmes> Eliezer: Or some time before natural death would be better.
<OcsRazor> 21cm does both, they try everything out
<Eliezer> 21cm is working on biological preservation of organs, not cryonic preservation of information, right?
<OcsRazor> 21cm supplies all of Alcors tech and advisement
<BJKlein> it's funny to see similar questions being asked at the same time
<MRAmes> Another path might be: if we can figure out the chemical signals that cause the spines to retract, we may be able to inject a protectant that inhibits this.
<BJKlein> makes OcsRazor's job a bit easier
<OcsRazor> Yes MRA!
* BJKlein tosses another log
<OcsRazor> there is some examples from research that if you anesthetize an animal you can stop its spines from moving
<OcsRazor> I need to make this suggestion to greg
<BJKlein> anesthesia.. lol
<MRAmes> Yet another path: We may be able to position non-nanotech MEMS throughout the cortex that release concentrated protectant on command.
<OcsRazor> if you could do that...
<MRAmes> I don't know how close this capability is yet, though.
<BJKlein> it'd be better to go ahead and 'kill' a dying a patient before all this happens with a freeze
<MRAmes> I suspect it will com before 'true' drex-tech.
<MRAmes> BJ. yeah
<Eliezer> eh, cryonics, of all the transhumanist disciplines, should focus on things that can be done with today's technology
<Eliezer> they only sell you half the ticket
<OcsRazor> many people have argued for that
<BJKlein> you know, that's what i'm seeing.. a delivery method for genetics and this nanoteh stuff, that's our main barrier now
<OcsRazor> what do you mean by delivery method, BJ?
<MRAmes> Eliezer: Actually, doesn't Alcor suggest that most of the 'investment' will be used for storage and re-animation later?
<BJKlein> for instance, cancer...
<BJKlein> getting the genetic material to the tumor
<BJKlein> that's the main problem now
<OcsRazor> yep, I'm still suprised at how slow gene transfer is going
<BJKlein> a delivery mech
<BJKlein> or a way of specifically targeting the cells
<MRAmes> BJ. I have read lots of development there.
<OcsRazor> lots of interesting genetic self defense mechanisms our cells have
<OcsRazor> for preventing introduction of foreign DNA
<OcsRazor> that is slowing things up
<OcsRazor> and the FDA!
<MRAmes> Does the FDA influence even basic research a low-level as yours?
<MRAmes> s/a/as/
<OcsRazor> Not mine
<BJKlein> Potter does not take funding from Darpa hahe
<MRAmes> heh
<OcsRazor> somatic gene engineering, yes though
<OcsRazor> FDA only gets involved with humans
<MRAmes> hmm... how invasive is the oversight?
<OcsRazor> for animals it is department of Ag
<OcsRazor> for humans, extremely
<MRAmes> oh. I guess a lot gets done with non-human tissue then, eh?
<OcsRazor> yep
<MRAmes> Maaan that's weird.
<OcsRazor> nobody screams about mice
<MRAmes> Seems so counter-productive.
<OcsRazor> well, almost nobody
<BJKlein> that's an argument that Kurz makes often...
<BJKlein> peolpe are more horrified by biotech than nanotech
<MRAmes> It would be like studying Macintosh computers by working with IBM PCs.
<OcsRazor> FDA needs to be eliminated, and replaced with private Nonprofit group
<OcsRazor> like Underwriters Laboratory
<BJKlein> interesting..
<BJKlein> do many feel this way?
<OcsRazor> but drug companies will never let it happen...
<MRAmes> I can see the need for FDA for marketed goods... but research? Doesn't make much sense.
<OcsRazor> small biotechs would love to see that happen BJ
<OcsRazor> big pharma uses FDA to stomp all over little biotechs
<BJKlein> mostly with patents?
<OcsRazor> can't do anything in humans w/o FDA approval
<OcsRazor> no BJ, costs so much for small company to do research....
<BJKlein> yeh the extreme cost of getting a product through FDA is amazing
<OcsRazor> on humans that they wind up selling out to big pharma
<BJKlein> ahh I see
<OcsRazor> disgusting, FDA is incredibly corrupt
<BJKlein> yeh, and the most innovation is in the smaller labs
<BJKlein> so it's like the mother eating her young
<BJKlein> so UL is the solution?
<MRAmes> I've sometimes heard that progress could be better served by smaller companies relocating offshore... I wonder how much of that really happens?
<OcsRazor> it is an excellent model
<OcsRazor> the same function is done by gov in europe
<OcsRazor> but not nearly as well as UL
<OcsRazor> I would like to see many gov functions go to private nonprofits
<BJKlein> I agree
<BJKlein> education being the the biggie
<MRAmes> Competition would inevitably lower the cost.
<OcsRazor> power/responsibility ratio is way off in goc
<OcsRazor> Gov
<John_Ventureville> Go Buccaneers!!!
<John_Ventureville> *sorry*
<BJKlein> John_Ventureville, welcome
<John_Ventureville> thank you
<BJKlein> so they won?
<John_Ventureville> I'm not even sure if the game is over yet...
<MRAmes> No... they are obviously playing Go.
* BJKlein wife likes football
<John_Ventureville> but I don't see the Raiders possibly catching up
<OcsRazor> brb, got an experiment running
<MRAmes> He's going to prod the brain.
<BJKlein> heh
<BJKlein> electro shock treatment on his group leader S. Potter
<BJKlein> "Strap him down!
<John_Ventureville> What's going on here?
<BJKlein> anyway.. John_Ventureville, pray tell about your experience?
<John_Ventureville> *very concerned*
<MRAmes> umm... discussion of cryonics, and how it might practically work.
<John_Ventureville> No, I mean what have people in the chat REALLY been talking about??
<John_Ventureville> lol
<MRAmes> no, really!
<John_Ventureville> Wow!
<MRAmes> We just got side-tract carping about FDA oversight/corruption/etc.
<MRAmes> s/act/acked/
<BJKlein> OcsRazor, has been filling us in on the importance of denedritic spines and axioms
<MRAmes> And how the spines withdraw if the o2 is cut off.
<BJKlein> and that the current methods in cryonics may not be saving enough info to reanimate..
<John_Ventureville> very interesting
<BJKlein> suggestions may be flash freeze
<MRAmes> Tell us what you know, John!
<John_Ventureville> I like the flash freezing idea if it can ever be made to work
<BJKlein> You've met Charles Platt?
<John_Ventureville> yes, he is a friend
<BJKlein> he's the current Alcor Pres? no?
<John_Ventureville> no!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<BJKlein> whoops
<John_Ventureville> But he is the director of suspensions for Alcor.
<OcsRazor> back
<MRAmes> Ahh he's a techie then?
<John_Ventureville> lol
*MichaelA* I'm heading afk for a bit
<John_Ventureville> *sort of*
<BJKlein> a sci-fi writer also..
<OcsRazor> jerry lemler is current pres
<OcsRazor> of alcor
<John_Ventureville> Charles is a very self-educated man.
*MichaelA* This chat let me learn a lot about cryonics I never knew, heh
<BJKlein> Charles: http://imminst.org/g...l.php?siteid=95
<John_Ventureville> In fact, he has derived much of his income writing computer manuals.
<MRAmes> Nought wrong with that.
<OcsRazor> John do you know what happened to the old pres and ops manager, husband and wife team
<John_Ventureville> yes
<OcsRazor> are they still around?
<John_Ventureville> It is a sad story.
<OcsRazor> Uhoh
<John_Ventureville> They are no longer within the Alcor circle, I guess you could say.
<MRAmes> Does it involve flash freezing?
<John_Ventureville> I wish it did!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<BJKlein> heh
*MRAmes* is John the guy who participated in some freezes?
<John_Ventureville> It was decided by the board of directors that they should no longer be in charge.
<BJKlein> john, you mind if I add ya to Gilgamesh?
<John_Ventureville> I would be honored.
<BJKlein> do you have a pic online?
<John_Ventureville> I will send you one tonight.
<BJKlein> Ahh, Thank You.
<BJKlein> was the suspension a full body?
<John_Ventureville> The suspension I witnessed over Thanksgiving weekend was a vitrification neuro.
<John_Ventureville> It was my first one!
<BJKlein> cool, how did you help>
<MRAmes> Serious business.
<John_Ventureville> yes
<BJKlein> can someone explain vitrification to me?
<BJKlein> is that just turning into a freeze?
<John_Ventureville> My limited understanding is that it is an improved form of cryoprotectant which greatly limits the amount of cell damage when the freezing process occurs.
<John_Ventureville> The molecular level slicing/dicing is vastly less when vitrification is done.
<OcsRazor> vitrification makes a much more perfect freeze
<BJKlein> did you see decapitation?
<John_Ventureville> yes
<OcsRazor> perfect crystalization in vitrification
<BJKlein> it's done with a saw I guess before anything else?
<MRAmes> Was it accomplished before or after freezing?
<BJKlein> how is vitrification different, is it just different chemicals or different freezing technique?
<John_Ventureville> It's different chemicals and a freezing done at a higher temp.
<OcsRazor> different chemicals, actually uses a higher temperature freeze
<BJKlein> ahh, cryoprotectant... a different chemical I guess
<OcsRazor> jinx
<BJKlein> that's been happening quite a few times tonight, heh
<John_Ventureville> The head was first removed and then the carotids were connected with perfusion tubes.
<BJKlein> carotids are the main arterys?
<John_Ventureville> yes
<BJKlein> how many?
<John_Ventureville> two
<BJKlein> with exiting tubes?
<John_Ventureville> yes
<BJKlein> so two in and two out?
<MRAmes> Was there one infusion of cryoprotectant, or several?
* BJKlein poors a little gas on the flame
<John_Ventureville> lol
* MRAmes hears a hooshing sound!
<John_Ventureville> One infusion
<BJKlein> pours
<John_Ventureville> He had only one good cartotid due to the cancer
<BJKlein> brain cancer?
<John_Ventureville> The poor man was wracked with tumors
<BJKlein> ahh man
<John_Ventureville> throughout his body
<MRAmes> Was there noticeable skin-discolouration with this new mixture, or is it clear?
<John_Ventureville> noticeable skin discoloration
<BJKlein> reddening?
<John_Ventureville> a pale yellowing
<BJKlein> and that's basically it right?
<John_Ventureville> what do you mean?
<BJKlein> pump in the chem. and the wrap and freeze?
<John_Ventureville> It was a very time consuming procedure
<BJKlein> ahh really?
<John_Ventureville> yes
<MRAmes> I, for one, appreciate you sharing your experiences with us. Thank you. One of us may be next... you never know! How long were you working on the fellow?
<BJKlein> even being a neuro.. i'd imagine the full body take all day
<John_Ventureville> I stood there uneasily as the time went by wondering about the condition of the brain
<John_Ventureville> the procedure took about two hours
<BJKlein> yes, John_Ventureville, we greatly appreciate you sharing.
<John_Ventureville> my pleasure
<MRAmes> Hmm... that doesn't sound too, too long... was the temp quite low?
<MRAmes> Temp of the head I mean.
<John_Ventureville> The blood was pumped out and cryoprotectant was pumped in
<BJKlein> I don't want visitors to think we're asking these question for evil enjoyment..
<BJKlein> it's a learning process
<John_Ventureville> I understand
<John_Ventureville> yes
<MRAmes> Err... no... education.
<BJKlein> well, right.. we simply wish to know what happens
<John_Ventureville> I don't know the exact temps, but toward the end they used a fluids to really bring down the temp
<BJKlein> we're not going to try this at home or anything
<John_Ventureville> I hope not
<OcsRazor> the DIY cryostorage kit
<John_Ventureville> It was my first time and I was mostly a bystander so I am definitely not an expert.
<OcsRazor> do they sell that on late night TV
<BJKlein> so the pumping took hrs .. mins ?
<John_Ventureville> hours
<John_Ventureville> no, I would say about one hour
<MRAmes> I guess the flow is quite slow then.
<John_Ventureville> yes
<BJKlein> and there were how many there helping?
<MRAmes> Sounds like that MEMS cryo-release idea could help with that.
<John_Ventureville> It takes time for the blood to be removed and the cryoprotectant to be fully absorbed.
<John_Ventureville> I would say about eight people were there.
<BJKlein> who did most of the work or directed the team?
<John_Ventureville> We had a surgeon who had been contracted out by Alcor to do most of the work.
<BJKlein> interesting
<BJKlein> had he done this before?
<John_Ventureville> He was to an extent directed by an Alcor employee.
<John_Ventureville> he had done it many times before
<BJKlein> I wonder if his name is released to the public
<John_Ventureville> It has not been.
<MRAmes> I guess there isn't any difference between a surgeon working on a live patient and one working on a cryo patient... the skills would be almost identical.
<John_Ventureville> This poor man was only in his early forties.
<BJKlein> wow, AZ native?
<John_Ventureville> I don't know
<BJKlein> or I shouldn't ask that
<John_Ventureville> he does live there now
<BJKlein> sorry
<John_Ventureville> The doctor turned out to be quite a character...
<BJKlein> I was talking about the patient.. there is a patient privacy right with Alcor
<John_Ventureville> lol
<John_Ventureville> Yes
<BJKlein> jerry lemler was there too I would guess?
<John_Ventureville> yes
<John_Ventureville> This man was fortunate to get a very good suspension.
<MRAmes> Well, I guess it was a pretty straightforward job for the Doc... its not like the guy could die on him
<John_Ventureville> Information loss could be a second form of death for him....
<MRAmes> "good suspension" -- good to hear.
<BJKlein> For my birthday I got a humidifier and a de-humidifier...I put them in the same room and let them fight it out...
<BJKlein> comic interlude
<John_Ventureville> and that is why a speedy and well done suspension is so important.
<MRAmes> Stephen Wright.
<BJKlein> yes.. love mr wright
<MRAmes> heh
<John_Ventureville> I saw him perform in Alaska.
<MRAmes> Got the Album.... vinyl
<OcsRazor> John see earlier discussion about info loss after the chat is posted
<John_Ventureville> I will have to check that out.
<BJKlein> yes.. i'll post to Chat Archive.. we had a good discussion on this earlier
<John_Ventureville> I thought viewing a suspension would disturb me on some level, but I found it truly fascinating and educational.
<BJKlein> "Winny and I lived in a house that ran on static electricity... If you wanted to run the blender, you had to rub balloons on your head."
<BJKlein> yes, I was going to ask you about the psychological aspect..
<John_Ventureville> I remember a tv commercial with that theme.
<MRAmes> Time for me to retire L&G, good night all, and thanks again John.
<John_Ventureville> thank you!
<BJKlein> seya MichaelA
<BJKlein> oppo MRAmes
<BJKlein> so what's new in cryoland these days..?
<John_Ventureville> We are getting busier!
<BJKlein> what's that anti-aging research facility out there AZ...
<BJKlein> hmm,
<John_Ventureville> Kronos
<BJKlein> ahh yehh
<John_Ventureville> My employer prefers the Mayo clinic
<BJKlein> Kronos.. you know much about those guys.. the Phoenix Univ guy Sperling..
<BJKlein> really?
<OcsRazor> Kronos would deny that they are an anti-aging clinic ;^)
<John_Ventureville> I have read over their website.
<John_Ventureville> *Age Management Clinic!*
<John_Ventureville> lol
<OcsRazor> I know them personally, esp the VP of R&D
<OcsRazor> Chris Heward
<John_Ventureville> good!
<John_Ventureville> What can you tell us?
<OcsRazor> research component and clinical testing lab is very strong
<John_Ventureville> great
<OcsRazor> best I've seen for aging
<OcsRazor> There marketing is deliberately conservative
<John_Ventureville> Five or ten years from now I may just pay them a visit.
<OcsRazor> but they are extremely gung ho
<OcsRazor> how old are you Jonh?
<John_Ventureville> ancient!
<John_Ventureville> 35
<BJKlein> [Age][28.79461 Years]
<John_Ventureville> BJ, death is coming for you!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<OcsRazor> 31
<BJKlein> yippie.. I have a message for death..
<John_Ventureville> ?
<OcsRazor> things start falling apart about right now
<BJKlein> "Your Dead Buddy!"
<OcsRazor> ~28 for men BJ
<BJKlein> yeh.. we'll I dont plan to have this biobag much longer
<John_Ventureville> The body does begin to steadily decline in the thirties.
<OcsRazor> my best estimate ~20 years to robust bioengineered parts
<John_Ventureville> I don't recommend any of you go see the film "Final Destination 2."
<John_Ventureville> heehee
<BJKlein> is that the animated movie?
<OcsRazor> faster for neuro implants, which may speed the whole process along
<John_Ventureville> But will they also be affordable parts??
<BJKlein> after a time everything will be dirt cheep me thinkgs
<John_Ventureville> But maybe not in time for some of us.
<BJKlein> after hopefully a short time..
<OcsRazor> supply demand, keep in touch, hopefully I will have something to say about pricing
<John_Ventureville> cool
<John_Ventureville> Medtech tends to not be so inexpensive.
<John_Ventureville> lol
<OcsRazor> want to start a device company, 10 year plan on my mind
<BJKlein> yeh.. I have in mind starting a consulting company for augmentation help.
<John_Ventureville> How exactly would you consult?
<OcsRazor> it is going to be a whole new medical industry, good to start thinking about it now
<OcsRazor> become an expert before the rest of the market
<BJKlein> let's say you want a neural upgrade.. who's the best?
<BJKlein> yes.. being first will be key
<BJKlein> and noone else is doing this
<John_Ventureville> You should hook people up with who the best is based on their budget!
<John_Ventureville> *now that is being practical*
<OcsRazor> did you check Anders Sandeberg's consulting firm?
<BJKlein> of course..
<John_Ventureville> Eudora?
<OcsRazor> Sandberg
<BJKlein> yes... I looked over the site
<John_Ventureville> I forget it's name...
<OcsRazor> Eudoxa
<John_Ventureville> Eudoxa!
<John_Ventureville> thanks
<John_Ventureville> How is it doing?
<John_Ventureville> I hope well.
<BJKlein> there're publishing stuff, I believe
<OcsRazor> he is doing good, two government reports
<John_Ventureville> I have heard Anders and his partner have given a number of presentations to business groups.
<OcsRazor> I just sent him mail today asking if I could get one in english
<BJKlein> that's very interesting... let me know what happens there
<John_Ventureville> NEWS FLASH
<OcsRazor> II'm thinking along the same lines
<BJKlein> yes.. our generation will be the ones helping the babyboomers transhumanize
<John_Ventureville> The Alcor week-long standby training session will be held right here at Creekside Preserve/Ventureville!
<BJKlein> when is that?
<John_Ventureville> It will happen late February.
<BJKlein> http://www.eudoxa.se/usa/index.html
<John_Ventureville> thanks
<OcsRazor> I asked for Humanity 2.0, but I don't know if he has an english version
<John_Ventureville> I hope Yavapai county can survive having so many cryonicists descending upon it.
<John_Ventureville> lol
<BJKlein> is that AZ?
<John_Ventureville> yes
<BJKlein> ahh venturville
<OcsRazor> John, how far away is Santa Fe, NM?
<John_Ventureville> I would have to consult a map.
<BJKlein> what's the estimate for number of people?
<John_Ventureville> About twenty-five.
<BJKlein> is venturville a town? or
<John_Ventureville> lol
<BJKlein> what is the nearest town?
<John_Ventureville> It is really at this point a concept which has yet to really take form, but the first phase of it is the very real and upscale Creekside Preserve Lodge and cabins.
<John_Ventureville> Mayer
<John_Ventureville> pop. 1,500
<John_Ventureville> It has been around about 120 years.
<BJKlein> ouch .. distance from Santa Fe is 470 miles
<John_Ventureville> a nice drive
<OcsRazor> I'll hopefully be in Santa Fe for the summer
<John_Ventureville> ok
<OcsRazor> but maybe a little too far to visit
<John_Ventureville> It is a long drive.
<John_Ventureville> I got a disturbing email last week.
<BJKlein> only 1,384 miles from Birmingham to Mayer, AZ
<John_Ventureville> lol!
<John_Ventureville> Come on down!
<BJKlein> Everyone is withing walking distance if you have enough time.
<John_Ventureville> An immortal could simply walk all the way around a ringworld.
<BJKlein> yep.. what was the email?
<Eliezer> congratulations, BJ, you got into my quotesfile
<BJKlein> ehh, sorry..
<BJKlein> that was stolen from Steven Wright
<Eliezer> ok, I'll just change the attribution
<John_Ventureville> BJ would never plagiarize
<BJKlein>
<John_Ventureville> : )
<John_Ventureville> I received an email from an unknown person (at least to me) who seemed to have accidentally sent a copy of their email my way.
<John_Ventureville> They said to a friend how they had done a search about the Creekside and the people who owned/managed it and they had found out we were into "cryogenics and cloning!"
<John_Ventureville> I realized all the information was out there, but I was still very disturbed.
<BJKlein> hmm
<BJKlein> so you got my email eh?
<John_Ventureville> I'm not quite sure what to make of it.
<John_Ventureville> was that you?
<BJKlein>
kidding<John_Ventureville> ; (
<John_Ventureville> I am very concerned about the local people getting the wrong idea and turning against us.
<BJKlein> was the email defacing ventureville?
<OcsRazor> I'm finished up in the lab for tonight, so I'm heading home, yall have a good night
<BJKlein> thanks OcsRazor.. seya
<John_Ventureville> Ocs, good night
<nrv8> night
<John_Ventureville> I could imagine David and I being chased by a crowd of townspeople with lit torches and pitchforks!
<BJKlein> ehh, you think?
<BJKlein> hmm, they don't do that the Ralians.. heh
<John_Ventureville> Ok, maybe it would not be quite like a scene out of Frankenstein!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<John_Ventureville> One reason the Raelians bug me is that I could see some folks considering us to be just like them.
<John_Ventureville> Hello Utnap!
<John_Ventureville> good to see you
<Utnapishtim> Nice to be here
<BJKlein> wow.. Utnapishtim.. pretty late for ya.
<Utnapishtim> Yup!
<BJKlein> i'm posting the chat now...(2mins)
<Utnapishtim> Just finished watching the superbowl so I figured I'd check if there was any more conversation left on here
<John_Ventureville> Word of our cryonics interest has already leaked out, but it has yet to hit the mass media.
