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Defining, understanding selfishness...

christianity selfishness right and wrong

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#1 Valor5

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Posted 23 June 2015 - 11:09 AM


Christ died because of sin, a sin, in the beginning of human existence, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Sin, the transgression of the law has since that time increased immeasurably at least to us. So, one angel, Lucifer, the covering cherub was jealous of the Son of God, the Son of God received worship, honor and a special place with the Father that Lucifer, the highest created being did not have or receive. He became jealous, envious, covetous. This is the mystery of iniquity. This being wanted to rearrange the order and dignity of heaven.

 

Defining Selfishness...

 

What are all the colors and shades of selfishness...when we look at Jesus we see the King of kings, the Lord of lords, condescending to give His life that others might live. He lived a life of unselfishness...

 

To be continued...

 


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#2 old_school

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Posted 23 June 2015 - 02:47 PM

Fist of all, thank you for starting this thread. Jesus suffered for all of our sins. Lucifer, a Cherubim angel was favored by the Father but was not the highest created being. The Seraphim angels are were. It is selfish to think merely of oneself in one's lifetime and not others, including one's Creator.


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#3 Valor5

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 02:24 PM

Lack of equity

 

Example: If a person is hard pressed for money and the person owns land then the buyer is tempted to offer him far below the value of the piece of property due to the fact that the person is in a tough situation. This is selfish.

 

 


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#4 Valor5

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 05:41 PM

In word, in spirit, in action, be true representatives of Christ. Then YOU WILL BE RICH FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!


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#5 Valor5

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Posted 27 June 2015 - 01:12 PM

Hey old_school, thank you for your contribution/comment. Sorry for the late response. I don't see where you get the idea that Seraphims are higher than the Cherubims. As far as I can tell from Scripture Lucifer/Devil/Satan is the key and head adversary and the others that followed are what we refer to as demons.

 

Lucifer was in the direct presence of God, he was the highest. He is referred to as "son of the morning" , Lucifer means light bearer. He was in the immediate presence of God, The Creator, The Monarch of the Universe. The people who stand near or next to kings are the highly gifted. Clearly the bible bears this out. He convinced a third of the angels to follow him. A lower angel would not have been able to do this anymore than a mentally challenged person could convince someone that he is a genius. Please read your Bible again.

 

"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth...And there was war in Heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and the dragon fought and his angels and prevailed not neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:4 partly, and 12:7-9)

 

This verse clearly bears truth to the facts of the origin and position of the great rebel force.

 

"In my distress I called to the Lord; I cried to my God for help.

from His temple he heard my voice

 

 

Fist of all, thank you for starting this thread. Jesus suffered for all of our sins. Lucifer, a Cherubim angel was favored by the Father but was not the highest created being. The Seraphim angels are were. It is selfish to think merely of oneself in one's lifetime and not others, including one's Creator.

 


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#6 Valor5

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 10:40 AM

  • Taking advantage of people on account of their circumstances when you offer whatever they are selling for a price below its true value.

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#7 Dakman

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 11:18 PM

Churches just got a new way to figure out who is sleeping in on Sunday morning: facial recognition software that scans the congregation and records who showed up. Churchix is a product of Skakash LLC, which sells Face-Six for law enforcement, border control, and commercial applications. According to CEO Moshe Greenshpan, in the 4 months since the technology launched, 30 churches have already deployed the software and service, which could be used to target members who need a nudge or to identify potential major donors among those who attend faithfully.

Make Disciples of Every Creature

Evangelical churches often center their theology on a New Testament verse called theGreat Commission: Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel every creature. They do so with good reason. Almost 40 years ago, with the publication of Richard Dawkins’s book The Selfish Gene, the broad public realized that ideas can be viral self-replicators, just like genes are. A “copy-me command” is a powerful thing, whether it prompts its host to replicate a computer virus, chain mail, species or a set of religious beliefs.

Churches that grow fastest and biggest are those that put the “copy me” directive at the center of their priorities. They actively invest in recruiting, whether that means designing high quality print materials and websites, training “friendship missionaries,” launching social media campaigns, or conducting professional market analysis. By contrast with Europe, where religion often exists as a fading church-state monopoly, American churches are particularly entrepreneurial and many keep eyes open for business tools that can be applied to the business of expanding membership, offerings, and market share.

In churches that are on top of their growth game, greeters stand in the lobby to make sure everyone feels welcome. Guests are asked to fill out contact cards for follow up. High-production-value materials promote both theological benefits like salvation and concrete perks like childcare. Websites and social media advertise programs for young people. As in any business, good marketing is critical to sales and fiscal health, and that means keeping up with the state of the art.

High Touch, Soft Sell

Since the time of Billy Graham’s fire-and-brimstone tent revivals, many churches have moved tactically toward a more soft-sell social marketing approach. A form of evangelism called “relational apologetics” trains Christians to win converts via a slowcultivation process rather than the more traditional door-to-door witnessing or Sunday morning altar call.

One 2014 training for pastors in Seattle included a handout, “30 Ways to Create a High Touch Environment,” that included tips more commonly given to fundraising professionals or sales teams:

  • Put energy into being likeable.
  • Smile a lot.
  • Make all the friends you can.
  • Focus on their interests. Ask them questions.
  • Follow the 101% Principle.
  • Find the 1% that you agree on and give it 100% of your effort. Find common ground.
  • Walk slowly through the crowd.
  • Return all emails and phone calls within 24 hours.
  • Remember names.

For churches investing in this kind of courtship, technology tools including customer relations management software (like Salesforce), and social media are common practice. Software that scans attendee faces during the Sunday morning service and enters them in a database is just one in a long line of innovations that churches have adopted from the sales, marketing, and fundraising sectors.

Powerful Persuasion, Questionable Product

But will it backfire? Facial recognition software is creepy, even when it’s just a matter of Facebook tagging us in pictures; and if early web response is any indication,Churchix strikes some people as particularly creepy. Why? Because the whole goal of Churchix is to help power-seeking, member-seeking, communities manipulate people more effectively.

 

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#8 Valor5

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 11:36 AM

When you see something that needs attention that needs to be done something that is brought to your attention in your field of observation that you feel and know something should be done and you say to yourself that does not pertain to me to care for that then you are being selfish.

 

Example: What if someone is crying for help and you ignore them because you say to yourself I am not a doctor or a paramedic so I don't need to care about that. That is selfish in the sense that perhaps you are the only one there and you have a phone so that you can call a paramedic etc. and you don't even do that. This is selfish.

 

Example: Perhaps you notice something on the floor that does not belong there and you say to yourself I am not going to pick that up and leave it there. This is selfish.

 

Example: What if someone left their car lights on and you know this person and where they are but you fail to warn them about their light issue. This is selfish.

 

 


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#9 Duchykins

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 10:26 PM

I have a better example:  You proselytize your religion and make charitable efforts because it's part of being a member in good standing in your religion, and you believe it will earn you a place in an eternal paradise (and/or avoid eternal torment).  That is selfish.

 

Christianity is all about exploiting our basic instincts for self-preservation.


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#10 Duchykins

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 10:43 PM

 

 

Powerful Persuasion, Questionable Product

But will it backfire? Facial recognition software is creepy, even when it’s just a matter of Facebook tagging us in pictures; and if early web response is any indication,Churchix strikes some people as particularly creepy. Why? Because the whole goal of Churchix is to help power-seeking, member-seeking, communities manipulate people more effectively.

 

 

 

Holy Batman, that is nuts.

 

If enough people find out about it, I'm sure it will backfire.  I actually hope this happens.

 

Christianity already tried to rule in Great Britain and other European countries, and Canada, and Australia.  They do not have secular constitutions.  And yet, the Church has now lost a huge amount of its old power among the masses.  Why?  Because in countries that experienced the Enlightenment, the more the Church tried to manipulate, control and insert itself into people's lives, the more they pulled away from it.  

 

Same with antihomosexuality nonsense from Christianity.  Since 2001, Christianity took on a more and more public antihomosexual face.  Christians all over the place were seeing gays in their families, their gay neighbor, gay peers at school, gay friends, etc being demonized by Christian doctrine, so the more conservative Christian leaders pushed this in politics, the more Christians were alienated from their own denominations, the more Christians pulled completely away and stopped saying they were Christian, or even stopped being Christian altogether.   The Catholics had a small panic over this and made the new Pope a "cool" Pope.  Much needed PR to get people to come back to church.  The Protestants, however, since they were never that well-organized to begin with, haven't seem to come up with a plan of their own just yet.

 

These kinds of things are the result of a toxic religion trying to keep power in cultures (but failing to change quickly enough to keep people interested in it) that are becoming increasingly educated, tolerant, and freethinking.


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#11 Valor5

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 06:59 PM

It is written, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life". Titus 3v5-7

 

God is not revengeful or implacable and does not delight in the suffering of His creatures. Degenerate man is this way. The doctrine of eternal torment is one which originated with the great apostate, Satan. This doctrine leads men to rebellion and infidelity. It is a distraction and hurts reason.

 

Satan and evil men place truths in a framework of error to give luster to their own human sentiments, to make attractive the utterances inspired by the prince of evil. Infidels and pagans can write nice things which are attractive to the mind but only because they are getting it from one who was next to God in power. "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering...Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.... Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness; I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:13-15, 17-19.

 

There is nothing selfish in the truth.

 

What are your basic instincts? I bet I know. And are they compatible with self-preservation. Short answer, no. It is written, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest which are these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Galatians 5:19-24

 

Christ sacrificed himself the just for the unjust that you may live, have eternal life. What sacrifices are you making?

 

 

I have a better example:  You proselytize your religion and make charitable efforts because it's part of being a member in good standing in your religion, and you believe it will earn you a place in an eternal paradise (and/or avoid eternal torment).  That is selfish.

 

Christianity is all about exploiting our basic instincts for self-preservation.

 



#12 Duchykins

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 01:44 AM

 

It is written, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life". Titus 3v5-7

 

 

 

 

 

 

You just proved my point for me.

 

Anything you do is about saving your own ass in the afterlife.

 

Additionally, since works have no merit in the matter of salvation, only belief that Jesus exists is what matters, any manner of abjectly inhuman acts are  excusable, permissible and forgivable in your religion.

 

Your religion preaches self-degradation.  It dehumanizes everyone on the planet.  It is absolutely disgusting.  It makes it so much easier to bring harm to your fellow human beings, and not feel guilty when you do hurt someone.  

 

Its only saving grace are the individuals who retain enough of their dignity and empathy for others to rationalize away some of the uglier teachings, to use their own moral compass to navigate the wasteland that is traditional JudeoChristian doctrine, and alter it to align with their own gentler personalities.

 

They maintain their humanity in spite of Christian doctrine.  I only wish there were more of them in your religion.

 

 

 

Also, I didn't know you believed in witchcraft!  Wow!

 

Witches are real?

 

You know what other Christians believe witches are real?  African ones.  Do you know what Christians do to witches in many regions of Africa?  They burn them, they beat them, they cut them, or abandon them to starve.  CHILDREN.  They also do it if they suspect the child is possessed by the devil, if exorcism doesn't "work."  They do it because they think these children have evil powers and use them to do things like cause crop failure, drought, famine, stillborn, all kinds of unlearned silliness.

 

Congratulations on encouraging people to believe this heinous trash.


Edited by Duchykins, 14 July 2015 - 01:47 AM.

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#13 Valor5

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 02:17 PM

How is my religion about saving myself in this life or the afterlife? It is written, "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, He says, it abideth alone, but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit". John 12:24. To give is to live. It is written, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20

 

How is my religion degrading? It is written, "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10. It is written, "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over...all the earth...so God created man in his own image,... male and female created He them."

 

Christians DO NOT burn, cut, abandon, starve, beat people. It is written, "When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemmed thee? She said no man Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemm thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:10,11

 

 

 

It is written, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; That being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life". Titus 3v5-7

 

 

 

 

 

 

You just proved my point for me.

 

Anything you do is about saving your own ass in the afterlife.

 

Additionally, since works have no merit in the matter of salvation, only belief that Jesus exists is what matters, any manner of abjectly inhuman acts are  excusable, permissible and forgivable in your religion.

 

Your religion preaches self-degradation.  It dehumanizes everyone on the planet.  It is absolutely disgusting.  It makes it so much easier to bring harm to your fellow human beings, and not feel guilty when you do hurt someone.  

 

Its only saving grace are the individuals who retain enough of their dignity and empathy for others to rationalize away some of the uglier teachings, to use their own moral compass to navigate the wasteland that is traditional JudeoChristian doctrine, and alter it to align with their own gentler personalities.

 

They maintain their humanity in spite of Christian doctrine.  I only wish there were more of them in your religion.

 

 

 

Also, I didn't know you believed in witchcraft!  Wow!

 

Witches are real?

 

You know what other Christians believe witches are real?  African ones.  Do you know what Christians do to witches in many regions of Africa?  They burn them, they beat them, they cut them, or abandon them to starve.  CHILDREN.  They also do it if they suspect the child is possessed by the devil, if exorcism doesn't "work."  They do it because they think these children have evil powers and use them to do things like cause crop failure, drought, famine, stillborn, all kinds of unlearned silliness.

 

Congratulations on encouraging people to believe this heinous trash.

 

 



#14 Duchykins

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 03:00 PM

 

How is my religion about saving myself in this life or the afterlife? It is written, "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, He says, it abideth alone, but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit". John 12:24. To give is to live. It is written, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20

 

How is my religion degrading? It is written, "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10. It is written, "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over...all the earth...so God created man in his own image,... male and female created He them."

 

Christians DO NOT burn, cut, abandon, starve, beat people. It is written, "When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemmed thee? She said no man Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemm thee: go, and sin no more." John 8:10,11

 

 

 

 

 

With respect, that quote has nothing to do with telling Christians not to kill witches.  There are Christians in less developed nations who 1) believe witchcraft is real  2) believe the Old Testament is correct & that it's perfectly moral to kill witches.

 

Christianity does not make people moral.  It doesn't always necessarily make people immoral either due to the reasons I mentioned earlier; their own sense of morality causes them to alter some of the traditional Christian teachings to make it more palatable to them.  But culture is a strong influence on religions.

 

I did not lie about Christians burning witches in Africa.  It's been going on for years.  I have even seen video of a hysterical village of Christians screaming "witch" and "agent of Satan" and all that beat someone and them set fire to them.  It's a very very ugly thing.  I later saw a video where another village did the same but with a small group of people instead of just one person.     That is raw Christianity, when it has not been tempered by a culture like ours.

 

Christians in Kenya:   http://www.liveleak....=cfd_1367882372

Christians in Nigeria:  http://www.cnn.com/2....child.witches/

Niger Delta:  http://www.theguardi...07/dec/09/video

 

 

But maybe you meant to say that they aren't true Christians?    Sometimes people say that.  I always am curious how they believe themselves authoritative in such matters, like their own little Pope of their own flavor of Christianity.

 

I'm sure you're aware of the Muslims who say that the Muslims out bombing people, beheading and all that aren't Muslims.  These kinds of statements never come off as credible or reasonable.  Nobody but other Muslims believe that.  We all know they're Muslims.  We also know the Qur'an at times says not to kill and at other times points out times when killing is okay. 

 

The Bible is the same in that manner.  You don't look reasonable trying to pretend that there aren't some really nasty Christians out there who take some parts of the Bible very seriously.


Edited by Duchykins, 14 July 2015 - 03:08 PM.


#15 addx

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 03:07 PM

If Jesus really was the son of god then it is meaningless to say he lived an unselfish life.

1) He did not give anything to mankind. He knew he was the son of god and so he knew nothing bad would really happen to him. If you really knew that death is not final but in fact you will sit next to god when you die, then your sacrifice meant nothing. People who do not think they have more than this life on earth and yet still sacrifice themselves to really save someone - are the real heroes.

2) He had all the powers of god and yet he only used them a few times, some of which are more useless magician tricks than anything like turning water into wine. So many people died at the time, why would he resurrect one and not the others. Also, having all the powers of god makes posession quite useless as you can manifest whatever you like, this also defeats the idea that he, as a son of god, demonstrated selflessness.

He could be deemed to demonstrate extremely high selflessness if he was actually just a human with no relation to god. I like to think of him like that because that is truly inspiring. As for the son of god idea, it's really disappointing in so many ways.
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#16 Valor5

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 01:46 PM

1. God Has given the gift of ETERNAL LIFE to man what more do you want? A home in heaven with Him, a new body, an earth made new, where no sickness, suffering, death, sin or any trace of any kind of evil will NEVER be found. "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him." 1 Corinthians 2:9

 

Many bad things happened to Jesus, people thought of Him as a coward because He put up with abuse, He was betrayed by friends, He was tortured by the Romans, He fasted 40 days, He walked long distances and slept outside, He had to work, He lived in the "Ghetto."  

 

His sacrifice if you understand the sanctuary system has a great deal of meaning. You should learn.

 

You do not understand salvation or the great controversy that's why you come to wrong conclusions.

 

2. Again all you say is based on incredible ignorance.

 

He DID NOT HAVE TO CONDESCEND TO SAVE YOU!!! HE OWES YOU NOTHING!!! How ungrateful are you? You are the sinner. You need a savior. You need an advocate. You need grace and forgiveness otherwise you have to die.

 

YOU ARE SO, SO, SO, IGNORANT OF THE MISSION AND PURPOSE THAT YOU HAVE LITTLE TO NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE. The intelligence and wisdom of God is unfathomable. "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God how unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out for who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to Him and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be glory forever. Amen."

 

 

 

Jesus was a man as man should have been. He came to triumph were Adam the first man had failed. He lived a sinless life so that we may have an opportunity to go back to paradise. HE DID NOT HAVE TO DO THIS!!! "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." He felt like he was eternally separated from God at the cross. The divine favor was removed from Him because of the hatred God the Father has for sin. ALL SIN WAS PLACED UPON HIM, FOR US. He was a man exercising faith and obedience. What He did we also can do.

 

You have no righteousness, goodness apart from God. All your good works do not originate with you. You are dependent on God for your heart beat and breathing. He has given you probationary time to prove your renewed loyalty to Him. To pledge allegiance to Him and not to the prince of darkness and selfishness, Satan the Devil.

 

We have a part to play. we must demonstrate through the grace of God that we are worthy of eternal life. How selfish is it to just live for yourself, even for others in this life and fail of eternal life where you can help and be a blessing eternally?

 

 

If Jesus really was the son of god then it is meaningless to say he lived an unselfish life.

1) He did not give anything to mankind. He knew he was the son of god and so he knew nothing bad would really happen to him. If you really knew that death is not final but in fact you will sit next to god when you die, then your sacrifice meant nothing. People who do not think they have more than this life on earth and yet still sacrifice themselves to really save someone - are the real heroes.

2) He had all the powers of god and yet he only used them a few times, some of which are more useless magician tricks than anything like turning water into wine. So many people died at the time, why would he resurrect one and not the others. Also, having all the powers of god makes posession quite useless as you can manifest whatever you like, this also defeats the idea that he, as a son of god, demonstrated selflessness.

He could be deemed to demonstrate extremely high selflessness if he was actually just a human with no relation to god. I like to think of him like that because that is truly inspiring. As for the son of god idea, it's really disappointing in so many ways.

 


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#17 Duchykins

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 04:23 PM

 

1. God Has given the gift of ETERNAL LIFE to man what more do you want? A home in heaven with Him, a new body, an earth made new, where no sickness, suffering, death, sin or any trace of any kind of evil will NEVER be found. "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him." 1 Corinthians 2:9

 

Many bad things happened to Jesus, people thought of Him as a coward because He put up with abuse, He was betrayed by friends, He was tortured by the Romans, He fasted 40 days, He walked long distances and slept outside, He had to work, He lived in the "Ghetto."  

 

His sacrifice if you understand the sanctuary system has a great deal of meaning. You should learn.

 

You do not understand salvation or the great controversy that's why you come to wrong conclusions.

 

2. Again all you say is based on incredible ignorance.

 

He DID NOT HAVE TO CONDESCEND TO SAVE YOU!!! HE OWES YOU NOTHING!!! How ungrateful are you? You are the sinner. You need a savior. You need an advocate. You need grace and forgiveness otherwise you have to die.

 

YOU ARE SO, SO, SO, IGNORANT OF THE MISSION AND PURPOSE THAT YOU HAVE LITTLE TO NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE. The intelligence and wisdom of God is unfathomable. "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God how unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out for who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to Him and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be glory forever. Amen."

 

 

 

Jesus was a man as man should have been. He came to triumph were Adam the first man had failed. He lived a sinless life so that we may have an opportunity to go back to paradise. HE DID NOT HAVE TO DO THIS!!! "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." He felt like he was eternally separated from God at the cross. The divine favor was removed from Him because of the hatred God the Father has for sin. ALL SIN WAS PLACED UPON HIM, FOR US. He was a man exercising faith and obedience. What He did we also can do.

 

You have no righteousness, goodness apart from God. All your good works do not originate with you. You are dependent on God for your heart beat and breathing. He has given you probationary time to prove your renewed loyalty to Him. To pledge allegiance to Him and not to the prince of darkness and selfishness, Satan the Devil.

 

We have a part to play. we must demonstrate through the grace of God that we are worthy of eternal life. How selfish is it to just live for yourself, even for others in this life and fail of eternal life where you can help and be a blessing eternally?

 

 

 

 

 

Proving my point:  Christianity preaches self-degradation and is utterly dehumanizing.  It revels in abasing everyone; children, women, men.   It is completely unrelenting and undiscriminating in this manner.  Christianity is perfectly divorced from morality.


This doctrine insists that humans cannot be moral agents.  

 

Is it any wonder that secular morality blows their mind?


Is it any wonder that Christians have trouble figuring out why people could be moral without religion?  About why they are confused at what motivations irreligious people have to be moral?



#18 Duchykins

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 05:05 PM

I rarely bother to do this, but I'll make an exception in this case:

 

Jesus was actually quite a despicable person, certainly not to be admired by anyone for any reason.

 

Jesus was only in it for the Jews.  He didn't give a shit about anyone else.

 

"I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Isreal"  Matt 15:24

 

The story of a gentile mother bringing her daughter to Jesus for healing, which he twice refused, saying "It is not right to take the children's bread, and cast it to dogs." [Matt 15:26]

 

Meaning he was only come to help God's chosen people: Jews.  Sometimes he makes exceptions for gentile converts if they really make themselves low, destitute, abandon their families and crawl to him perfectly demoralized, with less dignity than the most abused of animals -- he prefers humanity this way -- but make no mistake, most of the time he is talking to Jews about Jews.  

 

It wasn't until the woman debased herself for her daughter's sake, saying "Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table,"  [Matt 15:28] that Jesus was pleased and agreed to help the child. 

 

 

 

 

More fun times with the hot-tempered and destructive Prince of Peace:

 

Luke 12: 41

 

"Peter said, “Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?” 42And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43“Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44“Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45“But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47“And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."

 

I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50“But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! 51“Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division52for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53“They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

     

     

 


Edited by Duchykins, 18 July 2015 - 05:26 PM.


#19 Valor5

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 05:25 PM

It is no disgrace to us if you cannot understand our motives, self-sacrificing love. What is degrading about love? What is abasing about a God that condescended to save you, to die for you, the law braker? If you commit a crime, brake the law, is the law, the officer, going to look the other way?

 

Our morality, the only morality that will see life transforms people for the better. What does your morality have to offer?

What is your morality? And please don't say the ten commandments? You are either selfish or self-less. You either love your neighbor as yourself or you don't. You either keep the ten commandments or you don't.

 

Don't try to be a moralist. You are a sinner by inheritance. You are selfish by nature. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." You need the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. The moralist trusting in his own goodness will be found wanting. You need virtue which you do not inherently possess.

 

The morality of the world does not blow my mind. What is the morality of the world? profligacy, vice, indulgence in appetite, gratification of the senses, pride, ambition, love of dress and display, love of praise and flattery, striving for high rewards and honors. This is your secular morality.

 

The moralists in Christ day were called the Pharisees. They created rules and regulations and Jesus called them hypocrites because they were not even able to keep them. They had a thirst and love for power and were pretentiously pious. They even criticized Jesus for healing a man. You cannot fool me. I know your ways and I know the way.

 

 

 

 

 

1. God Has given the gift of ETERNAL LIFE to man what more do you want? A home in heaven with Him, a new body, an earth made new, where no sickness, suffering, death, sin or any trace of any kind of evil will NEVER be found. "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him." 1 Corinthians 2:9

 

Many bad things happened to Jesus, people thought of Him as a coward because He put up with abuse, He was betrayed by friends, He was tortured by the Romans, He fasted 40 days, He walked long distances and slept outside, He had to work, He lived in the "Ghetto."  

 

His sacrifice if you understand the sanctuary system has a great deal of meaning. You should learn.

 

You do not understand salvation or the great controversy that's why you come to wrong conclusions.

 

2. Again all you say is based on incredible ignorance.

 

He DID NOT HAVE TO CONDESCEND TO SAVE YOU!!! HE OWES YOU NOTHING!!! How ungrateful are you? You are the sinner. You need a savior. You need an advocate. You need grace and forgiveness otherwise you have to die.

 

YOU ARE SO, SO, SO, IGNORANT OF THE MISSION AND PURPOSE THAT YOU HAVE LITTLE TO NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE. The intelligence and wisdom of God is unfathomable. "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God how unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out for who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to Him and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be glory forever. Amen."

 

 

 

Jesus was a man as man should have been. He came to triumph were Adam the first man had failed. He lived a sinless life so that we may have an opportunity to go back to paradise. HE DID NOT HAVE TO DO THIS!!! "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." He felt like he was eternally separated from God at the cross. The divine favor was removed from Him because of the hatred God the Father has for sin. ALL SIN WAS PLACED UPON HIM, FOR US. He was a man exercising faith and obedience. What He did we also can do.

 

You have no righteousness, goodness apart from God. All your good works do not originate with you. You are dependent on God for your heart beat and breathing. He has given you probationary time to prove your renewed loyalty to Him. To pledge allegiance to Him and not to the prince of darkness and selfishness, Satan the Devil.

 

We have a part to play. we must demonstrate through the grace of God that we are worthy of eternal life. How selfish is it to just live for yourself, even for others in this life and fail of eternal life where you can help and be a blessing eternally?

 

 

 

 

 

Proving my point:  Christianity preaches self-degradation and is utterly dehumanizing.  It revels in abasing everyone; children, women, men.   It is completely unrelenting and undiscriminating in this manner.  Christianity is perfectly divorced from morality.


This doctrine insists that humans cannot be moral agents.  

 

Is it any wonder that secular morality blows their mind?


Is it any wonder that Christians have trouble figuring out why people could be moral without religion?  About why they are confused at what motivations irreligious people have to be moral?

 

 



#20 Duchykins

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 05:33 PM

 

It is no disgrace to us if you cannot understand our motives, self-sacrificing love. What is degrading about love? What is abasing about a God that condescended to save you, to die for you, the law braker? If you commit a crime, brake the law, is the law, the officer, going to look the other way?

 

Our morality, the only morality that will see life transforms people for the better. What does your morality have to offer?

What is your morality? And please don't say the ten commandments? You are either selfish or self-less. You either love your neighbor as yourself or you don't. You either keep the ten commandments or you don't.

 

Don't try to be a moralist. You are a sinner by inheritance. You are selfish by nature. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." You need the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. The moralist trusting in his own goodness will be found wanting. You need virtue which you do not inherently possess.

 

The morality of the world does not blow my mind. What is the morality of the world? profligacy, vice, indulgence in appetite, gratification of the senses, pride, ambition, love of dress and display, love of praise and flattery, striving for high rewards and honors. This is your secular morality.

 

The moralists in Christ day were called the Pharisees. They created rules and regulations and Jesus called them hypocrites because they were not even able to keep them. They had a thirst and love for power and were pretentiously pious. They even criticized Jesus for healing a man. You cannot fool me. I know your ways and I know the way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

More degradation from Christianity.

 

It's not my fault that it blows your mind how I could be a moral person.

 

Why on earth would I claim the ten commandments as my source of morality?  The majority of them are abhorrent.  

 

There is no defending Christianity and you know it, that's why you try to distract and turn the discussion away from Christian doctrine by accusing others of being just as morally depraved as you are.

 

Remove the log from your own eye, Christian.


Edited by Duchykins, 18 July 2015 - 05:35 PM.


#21 Valor5

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 05:40 PM

I have unmasked you.

 

 

 

 

It is no disgrace to us if you cannot understand our motives, self-sacrificing love. What is degrading about love? What is abasing about a God that condescended to save you, to die for you, the law braker? If you commit a crime, brake the law, is the law, the officer, going to look the other way?

 

Our morality, the only morality that will see life transforms people for the better. What does your morality have to offer?

What is your morality? And please don't say the ten commandments? You are either selfish or self-less. You either love your neighbor as yourself or you don't. You either keep the ten commandments or you don't.

 

Don't try to be a moralist. You are a sinner by inheritance. You are selfish by nature. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." You need the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. The moralist trusting in his own goodness will be found wanting. You need virtue which you do not inherently possess.

 

The morality of the world does not blow my mind. What is the morality of the world? profligacy, vice, indulgence in appetite, gratification of the senses, pride, ambition, love of dress and display, love of praise and flattery, striving for high rewards and honors. This is your secular morality.

 

The moralists in Christ day were called the Pharisees. They created rules and regulations and Jesus called them hypocrites because they were not even able to keep them. They had a thirst and love for power and were pretentiously pious. They even criticized Jesus for healing a man. You cannot fool me. I know your ways and I know the way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

More degradation from Christianity.

 

It's not my fault that it blows your mind how I could be a moral person.

 

Why on earth would I claim the ten commandments as my source of morality?  The majority of them are abhorrent.  

 

There is no defending Christianity and you know it, that's why you try to distract and turn the discussion away from Christian doctrine by accusing others of being just as morally depraved as you are.

 

Remove the log from your own eye, Christian.

 

 



#22 Duchykins

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Posted 18 July 2015 - 06:07 PM

 

I have unmasked you.

 

 

 

 

 

No, you unmasked yourself.



#23 Duchykins

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Posted 19 July 2015 - 02:09 AM

There is more to the story.

You see an attack on Christian doctrine as an attack on your own person. It is not and never is, unless I/we expressly say so.

While you have been busy trying to demean us, shame us into giving up our respect of ourselves and others as conscious entities, try to get us to betray our sense of morality, identity, and compassion for fellow sentient beings, you have missed one of my most important points: you are more moral than your religion. You are better than this filth you've been preaching.

You are not incapable of being your own moral agent. There is goodness in you, something that originates with you, something that only you can take credit for.

You do have the capacity for reason and empathy with which to evaluate situations and navigate through various moral choices one would have in any given situation, and come to the right decision right on the spot without consulting with anyone, anything, other than yourself. You are a human being, born with these capabilities. You are self-aware, and you have the ability to abstractly place yourself in another's shoes and think to yourself "how would I feel if I was this person?"

You do these things automatically every single day, you, in your daily life, do not pause and wonder what God might want you to do in a given situation. Perhaps once in a while if someone reminds you of your own religion, but the majority of the time you do not do this. You come to decisions all by yourself much faster than the time it would take to analyze Christian doctrine for moral guidance. Your default position is your own moral compass, your own instincts, your own intellect. You call on these before calling on anything else; not culture, not religion, not philosophy. For better or worse, this is an intrinsic property of humanity, and it always has been.

You do have an inherent sense of fairness, which is your heritage as a deeply feeling and thinking social mammal.

You are perfectly capable of altruistic behavior all by yourself, without needing any influence from any religion, any philosophy of any kind. Altruism is your birthright, this capacity belongs to all of the social creatures; something that no one can take from you and something no one else can take credit for; consequently, only you can smother it or give it away.

In the knowledge that no one else is looking out for us, we see that we only have each other. We must care for each other, we must raise each other up. No one can do it for us. In the knowledge that our consciousnesses are not immortal, there is no more precious life than now. This engenders a powerful solidarity and motivation for cooperation unlike any other intellectual construct of humanity. It is an incredibly secure perspective, nowhere near as easily threatened as religious worldviews are. As a result, those like me never become as personally vicious as a theist might when this perspective, or our source of morality, is questioned and ridiculed. Also unlike theists, we don't have to struggle to get a preconstructed set of beliefs aligned with our natural consciences so that we might be at peace with ourselves, this is not a problem because our beliefs already come from our conscience.

You might think me a despicable person because I do not share all of your beliefs, or that I am despicable because your religion commands it, but I do not see a despicable person in you. You might say I and those like me, even perhaps all of humanity, deserve the absolute worst fates imaginable, but I say you are deserving of all the respect and treatment that the dignity of a self-aware species demands. We are all surely imperfect but we are not loathsome to the core. I believe that you are better than your religion, despite your religion, partly because you are human and there are some things too deep and instinctive in humans for any religion to corrupt.


Edited by Duchykins, 19 July 2015 - 02:59 AM.

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#24 addx

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 07:47 AM

He DID NOT HAVE TO CONDESCEND TO SAVE YOU!!! HE OWES YOU NOTHING!!! How ungrateful are you? You are the sinner. You need a savior. You need an advocate. You need grace and forgiveness otherwise you have to die.


You do realize that whatever I "need" according to you, I "need" it because God set up the game so that I need it.

If I am a sinner, I am a sinner because God defined that some of human behavior is sin. God made it so. Animals for example - can't sin, because God didn't make it so.

If I need a savior, I need a savior from Gods predicament, which God makes me go through.

If I need an advocate, I need an advocate to save me from Gods punishment.

No reasonable person would consider this situation to be "free will". A will is free from another persons (or Gods) will, only if that other person (or God) never does anything in response to the first persons choices.


So, anyone with reason can conclude that God set up mankind to serve him, he set up mankind to be punished for any transgressions against his word, his will.
He seems to have made us dependant on him, which is simply a way to control people, and having control simply means posessing - meaning God in your mythology is the prime example of uberselfishness as he jelaously threatens the entire human race to appreciate him over everything else under threat of eternal hell.



 

YOU ARE SO, SO, SO, IGNORANT OF THE MISSION AND PURPOSE THAT YOU HAVE LITTLE TO NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE. The intelligence and wisdom of God is unfathomable.


If it is unfathomable then you don't understand it either and have no argument. Please don't delude yourself that you can determine who has a right to an opinion. It's quite offensive to read such nonsense.

Furthermore, how can you even be sure that you've done more unselfish acts than me?

I am not ignorant at all, I understand it on a higher level than you and don't require mythology to explain it to myself.
 

Jesus was a man as man should have been. He came to triumph were Adam the first man had failed. He lived a sinless life so that we may have an opportunity to go back to paradise. HE DID NOT HAVE TO DO THIS!!!


Yes, he could have just declared that everyone goes to paradise no matter what they do. God created hell, noone else.
 

"For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." He felt like he was eternally separated from God at the cross. The divine favor was removed from Him because of the hatred God the Father has for sin. ALL SIN WAS PLACED UPON HIM, FOR US. He was a man exercising faith and obedience. What He did we also can do.
 
You have no righteousness, goodness apart from God. All your good works do not originate with you. You are dependent on God for your heart beat and breathing. He has given you probationary time to prove your renewed loyalty to Him. To pledge allegiance to Him and not to the prince of darkness and selfishness, Satan the Devil.


I do not respond well to being sadistically conditioned by any kind of "setup". You can phrase it however you like, it's simply sadism. We seem to be here for Gods enternainment. I wonder if he makes bets with himself (or satan?) on who will "pass the test" and who will spend eternity in hell for trusting their reason.

Also, did it ever occur to you that some people (2000 years ago) could witness jesus and some could not. Those that could not witness Jesus (like you and I today) are at a serious disadvantage since they have to trust other people about it and people can lie and they often do, especially through a period of 2000 years. And many people do lie about themselves being prophets and so on. Why believe christianity, why not believe quran or some other story? How can the people today discern what is true? God supposedly made himself apparent once 2000 years ago (and a few times before that) and never since then. There are so many religions to chose from, there are even more different christian religions, I think it is quite unfair from God to put us in this position, don't you think so?
 

We have a part to play. we must demonstrate through the grace of God that we are worthy of eternal life. How selfish is it to just live for yourself, even for others in this life and fail of eternal life where you can help and be a blessing eternally?


Who says I live my life for myself? Who says I need instructions from God or loyalty to God to be unselfish? It has nothing to do with each other.

People should be aware of their heritage and that their way of life was made possible by people before them. People should try to appreciate and preserve what they inherited, better it and pass on more than they received to their children and teach them how to live and prosper. This is unselfish. It doesn't have to have anything to do with God, even though most of it is aligned with supposed Gods ideas about us.

I do believe human brains have evolved around this idea and so have an inbuilt tendency to understand it, or if nothing, simply perform it without being so much aware of it. This "evolutionary" setup is in all life, but most advanced in humans and so it is common across the globe. From this idea, common to all men, religions of the world are created as "learned/trained ways" to facilitate the "idea of life", as rules of practice that make the idea happen, that improve life.

The "idea" is just an understanding of the world, a philosophical understanding of life. It doesn't require "myths" about Jesus performing miracles or about adam and eve or anything like that. You can use myths and rules to enforce or intimidate people into a way of life or you can try and make them truly understand it through observation, living life and so on.

For me, the word "God" in all religions can be understood as "karma", "time", "truth".

If you commit some action, the world/karma/time will reveal your action as "bad"/"false" or "good"/"true" by simply producing consequences that you will feel (immediately or delayed). If your action is "false" the world - through its consequences will likely exterminate you or disable you from repeating the action or in some other way stop it. This will reveal such action as false - not a truth of life. If the action is good it will have good consequences that will reinforce it (the source of it) as time goes by, thus showing the action as "truth of life". Such action will stand the test of time - it is the truth of life/existence - proven by "time". This paradigm is infact embedded in evolution of life - it is simply called "selection". And so "selection" (of truth) can be understood as "Gods bidding" and so God can be seen as the "truthrevealer" or simply "eternal truth" or whatever.

So, I'd really appreciate people learning the above, rather than the awkward mythology of any religion.

You can also understand God as the part of your brain that supports altruism. This brain area is obviously stacked against a brain area that supports selfishness and can be understood as "the devil". In that sense, you could say that humans can have no virtue "without God" (without the altruistic brain part).

Edited by addx, 20 July 2015 - 08:17 AM.

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#25 addx

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 09:18 AM

It is no disgrace to us if you cannot understand our motives, self-sacrificing love.


I see no love or compassion or wisdom in your words.

I see coercion, threats being made.

I see you're not here to teach love, but to show yourself as better than us. In your own words, I see "pride, ambition,striving for high rewards and honors. "

What is degrading about love? What is abasing about a God that condescended to save you, to die for you, the law braker? If you commit a crime, brake the law, is the law, the officer, going to look the other way?


If I offend a friend or a family member I can ask forgiveness and they can forgive me. It is an inherently human act which existed long before any commandment, scripture or even language.

Our morality, the only morality that will see life transforms people for the better. What does your morality have to offer?


It may transform some people for the better, but religion is similarly also often an excuse to commit atrocities and has always been. Christians waged holy wars, enslaved africans, burned witches at the stake and currently are busy discriminating gay people and abusing children.

So, the effect of christianity goes both ways. It would be hard to discern if it did any good - compared to some alternative that never happened because of christianity.

Humans will inherently do both "good" and "bad" things no matter what and it's is somewhat delusional to think anything will ever change this.

What is your morality? And please don't say the ten commandments? You are either selfish or self-less. You either love your neighbor as yourself or you don't. You either keep the ten commandments or you don't.


Black and white reasoning is indicative of mental disorders. Also, the above is false, even christianity accepts the idea of people not being perfect in every situation, making mistakes and so on. The idea of repenting and forgiveness exists because of that.

Don't try to be a moralist. You are a sinner by inheritance. You are selfish by nature.


I am both altruistic and selfish by nature.

I am a sinner by inheritance only to people that subscribe to christian dogma.

Why would I inherit a sin that I had no part in committing? Read some of this

https://en.wikipedia...–slave_morality



"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." You need the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. The moralist trusting in his own goodness will be found wanting. You need virtue which you do not inherently possess.


I do possess both virtue and flaws. People have exhibited altruistic (moral) behavior before Christianity or even Judaism.

The morality of the world does not blow my mind. What is the morality of the world? profligacy, vice, indulgence in appetite, gratification of the senses, pride, ambition, love of dress and display, love of praise and flattery, striving for high rewards and honors. This is your secular morality.


Self-sacrifice for family members and children. Working for the good of the community/group/family. Sharing. These all existed long before "word of god" ever appeared. They exist even among animals, showing that it is an inherent part of life that evolved to sustain life better. Altruism is the truth of life. Without which it would never have evolved to where it is now.

#26 Duchykins

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 04:39 AM

I think Valor abandoned his own thread. 

 

Oh well, we can still discuss this for posterity.  This is a good topic for others to read.

 

So Valor, and the other Christians who share his beliefs (this would be exempting the Christians who disagree with his interpretation of scripture), insists humans have no real moral agency.  He additionally says we, by ourselves, can only make immoral decisions, there is no goodness in us, we can only be selfish.

 

Now here comes the really interesting part: he and his fellow Christians try to convert people like us under the assumption that there is something good somewhere in us, and that we can make moral decisions by ourselves.

 

Their position is internally inconsistent because it maintains humans have no moral agency, and only make selfish choices, yet in the same breath requires that people chose a morally superior Christian path.  We have to chose to be selfless.  

 

Where within our absolute selfishness are we supposed to pull this bit of altruism from?

 

How would someone who is wholly incapable of morality make a moral decision?

 

These Christians betray themselves with these logical contortions.

 

These requirements put the lie to the claim that good works do not originate with us.  Valor does not really believe what he is saying on this.  On the surface he does believe it, but his unconscious default assumption is that we do have moral agency (in order to chose Jesus and selflessness).  This is what comes through his arguments.

 

Christians like this try to shame us, guilt us, into making what they believe is a moral choice.  They are trying to appeal to our own consciences.  This of course assumes we have consciences to begin with.  Shame and guilt only come from a place of morality, from the knowledge that we have done something morally reprehensible, and our wish to take that action back or make amends.   These kinds of inner feelings and choices only come about through our own moral judgments.


Edited by Duchykins, 21 July 2015 - 04:54 AM.


#27 Duchykins

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 05:07 AM

Additionally, this insistence that we are inherently bad and cannot do anything good by ourselves means that it's not our fault.  If we have no moral agency then we cannot be blamed for what we do or do not do.  

 

This is how we generally view other species that are not self-aware as we are.  

 

We cannot even really be blamed for our own irreligiousness (which they believe is immoral) if we are just born these nasty things that are no good.

 

Yet I do not think that is what these Christians intend to imply.  They only do it on accident.  



#28 addx

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 07:14 AM

Additionally, this insistence that we are inherently bad and cannot do anything good by ourselves means that it's not our fault.  If we have no moral agency then we cannot be blamed for what we do or do not do.  
 
This is how we generally view other species that are not self-aware as we are.  
 
We cannot even really be blamed for our own irreligiousness (which they believe is immoral) if we are just born these nasty things that are no good.
 
Yet I do not think that is what these Christians intend to imply.  They only do it on accident.


I agree, but I don't really see this as something that christianity gives rise to, it is how people try to understand christianity but due to their own psychic issues.

I'm not really sure Valor represented christianity with his posts. Maybe his own view of it.

As I am an educated christian in a sense, although I do not believe in the christian God, I acquired different notions about christianity than those represented by some christians on this forum.

My notion of this: Because noone could perfectly follow Gods rules (10 commandments) their entire lives, everyone was still destined for hell so God changed the rulebook through jesus. He created the institution of forgiveness and repentance (however you say that) which allows people to break rules and still go to heaven if they repent and decide to be better next time and try to follow jesus' path. This makes some sense as a story of some sort.
There is no sense in God being so blind that he requires several experiments with "setting up humans" to get it right, but that pretty much the idea behind every religious story - God is omnipotent in theory, but in practice, God always seems lacking in some way and this lack gives way to a story of something that God did to "get it right" (as if he couldn't have created it right in the first place).

I have never heard my priest claim that only christians can be moral or anything remotely similar. It is not a true christian claim. I have only seen such claims from people who try to indoctrinate others with christianity - on forums like this.

Such people need to support a notion that simply declaring yourself to "join the club" (of christianity) somehow gives you an "moral advantage" over your past self (and others equal to your past self). As if you become somehow better simply by "chosing your colors" (color of christianity). After that is done, one can begin to preach to the "lesser" infidels from that high ground.. And this is what I see on forums. This is what shadowhawk does in here. Through christianity he deluded himself that he became better than his atheist parents. His need to be "beat" his parents most surely superseded his choice to be a christian. This need infact caused this choice as means of becoming better, and since this doesn't really work, it eventually pushed him to chase his "betterness" further into delusion and christian extremism. The whole "play" doesn't have anything to do with upholding christian values and does not really represent christianity. Similarly here, Valor tried to explain the same idea, equating christianity (his colors) with "good/unselfishness" and all else with "selfishness".

It is very different to hear an educated, sucessful, intelligent, wise christian speak his heart. My country is predominantly christian and also there are many christians here are very good scolars from families that have been good scolars, wise, educated people, gentle people that have nothing to do with extremism of any kind. The wisdom they dig up from the bible is often insipiring and interesting. This is opposed to "redneck christianity" or "competitive christianity" which the U.S.A seems to foster (as far as I can tell). There are "red necks" here as well, but they don't seem to get involved in preaching christianity.. maybe because, at least by declaration, 80 or 90% of this country is christian so there's noone to preach to, and there's noone you can beat simply by the act of becoming a christian..

Edited by addx, 21 July 2015 - 08:13 AM.


#29 addx

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 09:04 AM

As far as the general topic is concerned I have my own view on it.

There is a brain area that supports selfishness.
There is a brain area that supports altruism and can override the default selfishness. This brain area enables mammals to group up, sustain children, share etc. This brain area developed on top of already existing selfishness circuits - piggy backed on them as a modulator

The override works by considering group members to be you, to be as one and so extending your own selfishness to include your group members as if they were you, experiencing their satisfaction and pain vicariously and so on. In group/out group notions are primarily signalled through oxytocin circuits. This is what I call evolutionary piggybacking on existing circuits. The oxytocin circuits merely modulate what you consider to be you and what is considered to be other, thus preserving all the behavior the selfishness circuits as is, but modulating it by controlling the notion of self/other.



There is a brain area that tracks and weighs short term benefits.
There is a brain area that tracks and weighs long term benefits and can override the default short term benefits. This brain area enables "wisdom" in mammals (most developed in humans).

This override works through simple inhibition of behavior that would reap the short term benefits through an awareness of the long term result. This function is performed by the vmPFC and damage to the vmPFC causes psychopathy, temporo-causal learning deficits, inability to resist incentives with short term benefits, inability to support a long term ego-self object and so on. This organization fits well with cybernetic concepts of adaptive systems (for example http://www.danko-nik...and-t3-systems/) in which there is a general knowledge system and specific knowledge system.

The short term benefit system remembers temporo-spatial sequences that lead to desired or undesired events. It induces behavior to approach or avoid these events from the availability (for approach) or threats (to avoid) detected in the surroundings. This what is inhibited by vmPFC. vmPFC tracks these sequences in a "temporo-causal" fashion and can determine if one sequence which causes approach behavior results in a situation that then induces a sequence which causes avoidance. vmPFC detects the execution of approach behavior of the first sequence as the cause of the sequence that requires avoid behavior. The awareness of the temporo-causal relationship can be recalled next time the opportunity for the approach sequence is induced and with it, the approach sequence can be inhibited thus automaticaly avoiding the resulting bad sequence as well - reinforcing vmPFC function. So, the temporo-causal system provides "patience", "wisdom", ability to delay gratification (which in children is more indicative of future life success than IQ).

If you are able to maximize your vmPFC functioning and also maximize your oneness with others functioning, you will be a very content, wise and spiritual person.




The brain can be pushed or caused to consider everyone as one with you. These mental states are beautiful and you can induce them through usually serotonergic agents like magic mushrooms. Such mental states are also profoundly religious experiences but for me in a panteistic sense.

The mythology of all religions is quite pale in providing any true understanding of the world, compared to the described induced mental state of "oneness" with the world. Only disciplines like buddhism strive towards these mental states of understanding and awareness that truly provide a very different experience of existence compared to a normal persons.

#30 Valor5

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 11:07 AM

Duchykins you say back in post #18

 

"Jesus was only in it for the Jews...'I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" Matt 15:24.

 

That's a cunning and crafty reply. Do you mind sharing where you got this one from?

 

I am trying to use the quoting system, editor, but for some reason it is not working for me so I have to type everything. So, it is more time consuming for me to reply to you than it is for you to reply to me.

 

This story has a lot to do with the working of grace upon the human heart.

 

I am glad that you admit, "Sometimes he makes exceptions for gentile converts..." See the story of Cornelius if you think that God is the way you describe in all instances or of the Ethiopian eunuch.

 

You see and understand something of what is happening yet you do not see the full picture and therefore your conclusion is completely wrong. Or if you are exceptionally intelligent you do see what is happening yet do not wish to say it. Not a big deal, because even the disciples where many times stumped at what Jesus said or did.

 

How is it that he can both say this and also say, "For God so loved the world that He Gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" and also say, "Go ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

By the way I can give you a reply as to why your conclusion is wrong but I was wondering if you could give an alternative explanation.


Edited by Valor5, 21 July 2015 - 11:50 AM.






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