39 replies to this topic

[goedikey]

Hi,

I am looking for some info and experiences from users of this group on the supplement SAME.

The keywords SAM-e, SAME, methionine etc... does not come up wuith search results.

Any one would like to share their experiences ?

There is a lot of stuff on the web but I am also looking for interactions with Aniracetam and 5-htp.

Thanks

[ajnast4r]

try the full name, s-adenosyl-methionine

[Pablo M]

SAMe did not help my depression. On the 4 or 5 occasions I took it, all it did was replace my depression with a sense of hopelessness and despair. Yes I am sure it was the SAMe and not the placebo effect, blah blah, after all, I was expecting it to work, so if anything that should have positively influenced my experience. I have given the SAMe to my mother as it is effective for methylation.

I find 5-HTP to be more effective. However, ajnast4r helpfully pointed out some problems to me in an AIM conversation. Try searching "5htp dangers." It is apparently especially bad in the presence of vitamin B6. I am planning on replacing my 5htp with rhodiola rosea soon, which I found to be a slightly less effective anti-depressive agent.

[bipolar]

I didn't have much luck with 5-htp, or pharmaceutical tryptophan, although perhaps I didn't give them long enough of a chance.

On the other hand, the short time I did try Sam-e, I found it lifted my mood quite a bit. The problem though was that it was really increasing my anxiety and sleep problems, so I quickly bailed. That may have gone away after a couple of weeks though if I gave it a chance, because Effexor was a great anxiolytic for me, but seemed to increase anxiety the first few weeks.

[kenj]

I find 5-HTP to be more effective. However, ajnast4r helpfully pointed out some problems to me in an AIM conversation. Try searching "5htp dangers." It is apparently especially bad in the presence of vitamin B6. I am planning on replacing my 5htp with rhodiola rosea soon, which I found to be a slightly less effective anti-depressive agent.

I didn't have much luck with 5-htp, or pharmaceutical tryptophan, although perhaps I didn't give them long enough of a chance.

5-HTP, 50mg taken in the morning and again in the evening with a light carbohydrate snack and a powerhouse of B-6, B-12, Folic acid, Inositol, GABA and Niacin combined with some outdoor exercise during the day work synergetically superior in boosting your serotonin levels, balancing your parasympathetic nervous system, responsible for a good long nights deep sleep and can deal with most problems associated with low serotonin levels.
I find 25mg often is enough or I will become too drowsy. I have taken 5-HTP from Griffonia Simplicifolia Seed Extract (25-75mg) for 3 years with no problems, becoming much calmer yet alert for each day/week/month.

[ajnast4r]

from my understand, taking 5-HTP anywhere even near taking b6 will cause almost all of the 5-HTP to be converted to seratonin outside of the brain. which is said to have some pretty nasty effects on the heart.

my recomendation:

1 gram USP GRADE tryptophan, 30 minutes before bed (atleast 2 hours after any meals), a b50 complex, 500mg vit-C, and a nice tall glass of orange juice. this sets up the body with optimal conditions for converting tryptophan into seratonin mostly in the BRAIN instead of mostly in the BLOOD.

a word on depression: some sadness in life IS a normal thing, you cant expect to be happy all the time. if there are things, people, situations in your life that are making you depressed you need to work on changing your life and working through your mental/emotion issues with a professional. NOT masking your problems with drugs.

drugs should only be used to treat depression when a deficiancy is present, which most of the time... is not case. a daily meditation and yoga practice will in almost all cases have a profoundly positive effect on peoples moods, and is something everyone should pick up.

[goedikey]

Thanks for replying.

I am alkready taking 5-htpo and it works pretty well. I was mostly wondering about SAME as an alternative...

5-htp makes me drowsy and also makes me yamn a lot...

I am now taking 5-htp in the morning is is better for me rather than in the evening because it would otherwise make me very sleepy.

Thats an interesting point about 5-htp and B6 interaction but I only tak a multivitamin.

do anyone care to give their opinion of SAMe ?

Thanks

[kenj]

from my understand, taking 5-HTP anywhere even near taking b6 will cause almost all of the 5-HTP to be converted to seratonin outside of the brain. which is said to have some pretty nasty effects on the heart.

There is NO problem in combining 5-HTP from Griffonia Simplicifolia Seed Extract with B-6, your liver will not let you experience "serotonin syndrome", - as far as I know it will not produce that many enzymes. I WILL question safety and health when using SSRI drugs, as they will block the serotonin re-uptake.
Anyone using antidepressants should really consider reducing them and eventually quit.

I prefer natural methods always if available to optimize and balance the brain chemistry and allround health.

[lifemission]

I tried it two days ago and I think it made me go "manic", I got super angry and depressed at the same time because one of our cats pissed on the carpet in a spare bedroom closet, the whole day went to shit because I could not pull it together. It was rediculous...
It warns people with bipolar disorder not to take it unless recommended by a doctor. I've been suspicious that I may be bipolar for awhile, I have these up times and down times,and have been trying to find the right supps/noops to help me but I have'nt found them/it yet.
The Sam-e made things worse for me.. I probably need to go see a doctor but it's hard to make that decision because I am fine alot of the time, but then I see heaven, and later find myself in hell..
I've tried effexor but that was years ago. I stopped taking it gradually and replaced it with illegal drugs.
I have not smoked my drug of choice (pot) for four months now and don't know if what I'm going through is from drugs (or lack therof) or if I have other psychological/physiological issues.. Time (and maybe a doctor visit) will tell..

[zena]

Hi goedikey,
you can read some experiences with SAMe at SJW forum(something like Kelly`s SJW forum), there is a section there about it.
On the other hand you could try AMEN CLINIC site. There is a test there: ``Amen Brain System test``, based on it you can find out if SAMe could help your type of depression and what other supplements could be taken along with it. They have an interesting theory about ``malfunctions``of different parts of the brain in depression. Each of them would respond to other supplements.
Zena

[bipolar]

I tried it two days ago and I think it made me go "manic", I got super angry and depressed at the same time because one of our cats pissed on the carpet in a spare bedroom closet, the whole day went to shit because I could not pull it together. It was rediculous...
It warns people with bipolar disorder not to take it unless recommended by a doctor. I've been suspicious that I may be bipolar for awhile, I have these up times and down times,and have been trying to find the right supps/noops to help me but I have'nt found them/it yet.
The Sam-e made things worse for me.. I probably need to go see a doctor but it's hard to make that decision because I am fine alot of the time, but then I see heaven, and later find myself in hell..
I've tried effexor but that was years ago. I stopped taking it gradually and replaced it with illegal drugs.
I have not smoked my drug of choice (pot) for four months now and don't know if what I'm going through is from drugs (or lack therof) or if I have other psychological/physiological issues.. Time (and maybe a doctor visit) will tell..

I think it made me angry too. Inositol definitely caused anger in me. For the short time I used Sam-e it was definitely lifting my mood, but I was too anxious/high-strung. I am trying, without luck so far, to find something that helps me too.

I was on effexor, which helped a lot, for around ten years but finally quit like three months ago because I was sick of the side effects. The only time I was ever really manic (extremely manic actually) was when my effexor dose was too high, but on 75mg per day I did well, except for the side effects.

Theanine, Ashwaganda, Rhodiola, and Bacopa, all seem to make me more depressed. It's frustrating trying to find something that helps with depression/anxiety, when one has such an odd chemistry. If I don't find some relief soon, I will go to a doctor and try Cymbalta. It seems to be similar to effexor, but with lower incidence of side effects.

[lifemission]

I hear that Lamictal is helping some people with BPD, with little side effects, you might check that out. I'm 26 and I am pretty ok most of the time, not ready to give in to pharmeceuticals again just yet, the more I read about them causing more problems and how hard it can be to get off of them, the more I try to just eat well and work on "cultivating" a positive attitude. I have not been diagnosed with anything, but I don't really go to doctors unless it's an emergency either.
..well I am going to try some modafinil though, I usually do ok when I can keep working and stay "on task" we'll see how that goes. I bought the cheap stuff from healthpluspharmacy.com
BTW godikey, I wonder, are you just trying to justify the cost, if so I understand. It works differently for different people, very well for some. There are reviews at 1fast400.com. The have a good price on it IMO.
I don't think there would be any harm in trying it with aniracetam and/or 5-htp. Read up on the physio/psychological systems that these effect, then you might be able to make an educated guess if they contradict/synergize in any way.
good luck

[xanadu]

For hard to cure depression, try salvia divinorum. It's an herb and it's often used as a psychedelic. That scares off most people but it's safe if used properly. It's usually used by smoking but can be held in the mouth between cheek and gum or under the tounge for 20 or 30 minutes. Using the right dose gives an immediate lift to the mood. I keep it around for when I need it. Since I started on noots, I haven't had the need but I used to take some every week or two. Once you find the right dose for yourself, you know how much to take. If you take a lot and close your eyes, you get dream like visuals but I just take enough to do the job.

Like I say, most will be scared away from trying it but it works like a charm. The antidepressive effects lasted for me for a few days to a few weeks. People with bad depression say they need to use it every day to help their condition. It has no other side effects that I know of and can be ordered online. I use the leaf but they sell "enhanced" leaf too which has a concentrate of the leaf on it.

[bipolar]

I hear that Lamictal is helping some people with BPD, with little side effects, you might check that out.  I'm 26 and I am pretty ok most of the time, not ready to give in to pharmeceuticals again just yet, the more I read about them causing more problems and how hard it can be to get off of them, the more I try to just eat well and work on "cultivating" a positive attitude. I have not been diagnosed with anything, but I don't really go to doctors unless it's an emergency either.

Thanks for the info, I've actually considered Lactimal and may try it at some point. You are definitely right, it is best to stay off the meds if possible.

[bipolar]

For hard to cure depression, try salvia divinorum. It's an herb and it's often used as a psychedelic. That scares off most people but it's safe if used properly. It's usually used by smoking but can be held in the mouth between cheek and gum or under the tounge for 20 or 30 minutes. Using the right dose gives an immediate lift to the mood. I keep it around for when I need it. Since I started on noots, I haven't had the need but I used to take some every week or two. Once you find the right dose for yourself, you know how much to take. If you take a lot and close your eyes, you get dream like visuals but I just take enough to do the job.

Like I say, most will be scared away from trying it but it works like a charm. The antidepressive effects lasted for me for a few days to a few weeks. People with bad depression say they need to use it every day to help their condition. It has no other side effects that I know of and can be ordered online. I use the leaf but they sell "enhanced" leaf too which has a concentrate of the leaf on it.

Fascinating. I will do some investigating.

[canz]

For hard to cure depression, try salvia divinorum. It's an herb and it's often used as a psychedelic. That scares off most people but it's safe if used properly. It's usually used by smoking but can be held in the mouth between cheek and gum or under the tounge for 20 or 30 minutes. Using the right dose gives an immediate lift to the mood. I keep it around for when I need it. Since I started on noots, I haven't had the need but I used to take some every week or two. Once you find the right dose for yourself, you know how much to take. If you take a lot and close your eyes, you get dream like visuals but I just take enough to do the job.

Like I say, most will be scared away from trying it but it works like a charm. The antidepressive effects lasted for me for a few days to a few weeks. People with bad depression say they need to use it every day to help their condition. It has no other side effects that I know of and can be ordered online. I use the leaf but they sell "enhanced" leaf too which has a concentrate of the leaf on it.

Fascinating. I will do some investigating.

Very much so. You say you would use it once and had the effects for a few days to a few weeks, outstanding!! Gotta look into that!

[goedikey]

Salvia Divinorium looks interesting too.
I am not afraid of psychedelics.

So anyways, I found Rhodiola Rosea to be cheaper just to give it a try.
Its like WOW, a great heightening sensation.
This may very weel do the trick for me as I sense that I am mostly devastated by stress rather than depressed.

Thanks !

[xanadu]

goedikey, that is interesting about the rhodiola. I have some but haven't tried it yet. I have heard that it gives a lift and others say it calms them down. It might do both at once. I don't want to just take it every day because it's good for me unless there is really a compelling reason to take it. It might be good for now and then. Can you or others expound a little on how it seems to affect you and has anyone had long term experience with it? Do the effects come on right away, how long do they last? How does it affect sleep?

Salvia d. is definately good stuff. I have a lifetime supply of the leaf in my freezer. It's legal so don't be worried about that though it's banned in australia. I've found that most depressed people will not try it. They want something their doctor gives them in a pill. Younger depressed patients might be willing to try it but those over 40 generally won't touch it with a ten foot pole.

[jeromewilson]

I think I'm willing to give S.Divinorum a try to see if it helps with my depression, though in the past I've always avoided psychedelics (preferring occasional use of amphetamines, mdma etc., though I stopped that a long time ago). My brother and his friends have used it a few times and the results have ranged from enlightening to ambiguous to downright scary.

Xanadu, have you got a bit more info about it - dose etc.? Thanks

Edited by jeromewilson, 17 September 2005 - 07:19 PM.

[xanadu]

"Xanadu, have you got a bit more info about it - dose etc.? Thanks "

Salvia dose is a little hard to calculate for several reasons. For one thing, there is no absolutely standardised leaf or extract. For another thing, each person will vary in how they react to it. I will say that all the depressed people I know of who gave it a fair try reported good results but that doesn't prove everyone would benefit from it. A couple places sell what they call standardised leaf which supposedly contains a certain amount of the main ingredient, salvinorin, in each gram. They generally charge much higher prices for their product. Even with that, you can't say exactly how much you will need. What I would recommend is to try a small amount, less than you probably will end up using, and see how it affects you. Then up the dose slightly each time until you do notice an effect. If mood change is what you want, you should notice that within an hour of using it, perhaps sooner than that. You may not be sure until the next day.

The most popular way of ingesting is to smoke it. Alternately, you can hold it in your mouth for 20 or 30 minutes. It's broken down in the stomach so you'd need a huge amont to get results by eating it. You need more taking by mouth than by smoking. I'd say try smoking 1/8 to 1/4 gram or less of plain leaf to start. You can wrap it in cigarette papers or use a pipe. A pipe is less wasteful. Hold the hits a while before you let them out. If all goes well, you should notice a slight feeling within a minute or two. Many people compare it to a mild mj sensation though it's a totally different kind of herb. They say don't drive or operate heavy machinery right afterwards or for an hour or so. If you are sure the first dose did nothing, try a little more up to 1/2 gram. 1/2gm is a fairly large amount and you should get an effect. If that definately doesn't work, try more.

Side effects include increaced dreaming and closed eye visuals while awake. Stay in a darkened room after smoking, put on some music and close your eyes. You may find daydream type visuals appearing with more definition than you would have ordinarily. You may even be able to see your daydreams a little when you relax and get in the mood with eyes open. It kind of expands your imagination and visualisation powers. With large enough doses, the daydreams can become compelling and whisk you away to another world for a few minutes. This never seems to last longer than 10 minutes and you have to use a lot of the herb to get that. Some people never experience it who try, no matter how much they use. The 'trip' can be scary, much like a bad dream. The good dreams can be vivid and inspirational. I try to avoid that part, it just doesn't interest me that much but the mood changing effects are great.

A very few people are highly sensitive and may experience all those things with as little as a gram or less but that's rare. That's why I say do it in a darkened room, when you don't have to go out and do something. Find your dose and stay with it. The proper dose is the least amount that gives the mood lift. There is a reverse tollerance that goes with it. If you get satisfactory results with a certain amount, try a smaller amount the next time and you will probably get just as good results, maybe even more than the time before. Concentrated leaf can be used but that increaces the possibility of having one of those dreams that take you away. I can use either one because I know my dose. If you are determined to use concentrate, only use the 5x at most. That would be 5 times as strong as plain leaf. Plain leaf works fine unless you are determined to have the trip. They sell concentrate up to 30x but stay away from it. It becomes very hard to determine the dose and you could overdose and have a scary experience.

Cost wise, you can get good leaf for from $5 per oz up to $90 or more per oz. The more expensive is not neccessarily better. Most likely you will pay $10 - 15 or so per oz. I could recommend sellers but I'm not sure if that would be allowed. Concentrate costs usually $10 to 15 per gram of 5x.

It does nothing if the problem is you are just bored. Actual depression is a different thing. You may say to yourself the next day that you feel no different and it did nothing. Then, you may notice that you are not actually depressed right at that moment. You aren't sure why, you doubt it was the salvia but litte by little you become convinced that's what did it. Find your dose and it will all be worth it.

[jeromewilson]

That's brilliant, thanks for all the great info. I think I might try a tincture to begin with because it's easier and supposedly more mellow, though it's difficult to get hold of in that form here in the UK.

[ajnast4r]

smoking hallucinogenic herbs is not going to clear your depression lol... worst.recomendation.EVER

if anything most hallucinogens tend to exacerbate the effects of mental illness

[jeromewilson]

Well, I wasn't going to smoke it but I see your point. However, I don't intend to take nearly enough to 'trip' on it and if I don't like the results then I'll bin it. Simple as that.

[xanadu]

Actually, I'm a little surprised more people who know nothing about it haven't weighed in with an opinion. You don't need any knowledge of the subject to have an opinion. Most people who first hear about this will say the same thing ajnast4r did. First time I heard of sticking people with pins to cure them of disease, I thought it was nuts. However, as I heard more details about accupuncture, I became interested and took a course in shiatsu. Today, accupuncture is an accepted therapy used by many in this country. Some people just ridiculed it and would never accept it to this day. To each his own.

jeromewilson, good luck with your experiments. Using a "quid" meaning holding it in the mouth to absorb the ingredients is the traditional method used by curanderos in mexico to treat patients. They don't give it to their patients, they take it themselves to be shown how to cure the patient. Taking it by quid is said to be a more gentle way to use it. You do need more quantity than with smoking and the taste is bitter. I'd start with at least 1/2 gram of dried leaf. It takes longer to take effect that way but only an extra 20 or 30 minutes. If by the next day you haven't noticed any effects at all, try 1gm the next time. If you get slight effects, try the same amount. Smoking is just quicker but not neccessarily better.

[xanadu]

I used some salvia last night. Come to think of it, I used some about a month ago so I haven't stopped altogether though I use less now than I used to. I had noticed that draggy feeling, discouraged feeling that told me it was time. I've gotten so I can recognise it right away. I used to be down for days on end before I realised the symptoms. I took a small amount, less than 100mg of plain leaf, I believe, and smoked it in a pipe. Within an hour I noticed that my mood had brightened. It does not stimulate me, no obvious lift, no caffeine buzz, no urge to run out and do something. It also did not give any obvious mental energy such as you might get from piracetam though pir can give a lift too sometimes. It was that I felt more optimistic and just felt better about things in general. It's a subtle change but a very important one. I got no euphoria, no high and no buzz beyond the tiny buzz you get for a few minutes after smoking. I just wait for that to go away. It's hard to explain what it does but I had some dreams last night and just feel better overall. I would buy the stuff if it cost $200 an oz, provided it was good leaf like I have. Fortunately, I've been able to acquire top notch leaf much cheaper and have basicly a lifetime supply.

It's not for everyone, not everyone would even need it. 50 years from now it will be an accepted treatment unless they find something even better. I'd say start with very small amounts and work up slowly. Wait until the next day to be sure you feel no different. If you aren't depressed even a little, you may notice nothing more than the fact your dreams are more vivid. You might also notice that you can visualise more easily.

[jeromewilson]

I spoke to my brother last night and mentioned the idea to him and his reaction was very similar to ajnast4r, but then his experience has been with smoking large amounts of 10x extract. He took a short vacation out of the solar system.

Like you say, though, starting small, carefully observing the effects and not using concentrates should be fine. It's good to hear your experiences, I don't suppose you could recommend a potentially good source for tincture (really don't fancy smoking or chewing if I can avoid it...)? I guess you live in the US, although your leaf is 'top notch', which I always figured was a peculiarly British expression

[mitkat]

The leaf, in theory, shouldn't be that different all around. Salvia divinorum, by far the neatest of the sage genus, only has one known and established variety. The only quality differences is all in the grower. Don't believe all the "Hawaii gold" hype. Preposterous. My greenhouse Diviner's Sage kicks ass.

The seeds have a ridiculously low germination rate, something like >10%. I tried starting some rather expensive and somewhat rare seeds, and nothing came about. Grab a cutting and grow! And....quid it, don't smoke. Boo carcinogens. I really just wanted to reply because we're talking about plants.

As a long term solution....no. I believe much more strongly in G. Simplicifolia (5-HTP) and R. Rosea if you're interested in botanical solutions, which I believe in strongest of all [lol]

[xanadu]

JW, using it for mood regulation is completely different than using it for a psychedelic. It isn't even that good a psychedelic, though it's strong, but it's a great mood upregulator. Very few people who use salvia for kicks stay with it. That's because they used it for the wrong reason. I don't use tincture but one place on the net I know is good is Bouncing Bear. In case anyone thinks that "proves" I work for b.b. you can also get it from I am Shaman. Google either of those and you should find them.

miktat, I've used 5-htp and got very little out of it. I may not have used it long enough or in high enough doses but it seems to be hit or miss based on what other people have said about their use of it. I have some r.r. but haven't tried it yet. Can you tell us how it affected you? Some say it's stimulating but most say it's sedating. What sort of dose do you use?

The nice thing about salvia is it works right away and does the job wonderfully with few or no side effects. I've mentioned the main side effect which is increaced dreaming. You will have the compelling dream for a few minutes if you take too much which is why I said to start very low. You may sweat while under the influence but that just lasts a few minutes. The mood elevation lasts for me several days to a few weeks or longer. People with a bad depression may need it every day.

[mitkat]

I felt like I was depressed for the first time in my life last winter time. Bad girlfriend, two months unemployed (I am a Canadian horticulturalist). I took 5-HTP, 100mg 3x a day and after a month, I felt great. Wonderful. Totally there.

I don't use Rhodiola rosea very much, just a few times, it upset my stomach. I think I was taking 200mg caps? I can't remember. More power to people who can use it though. I use Siberian Ginseng (Eleutherococcus senticosus) as my adaptogen, and I love it.

[bipolar]

xanadu, have you known anyone with the anxious kind of depression that had used it? What I mean, is the type of person who is both chronically depressed and anxious.