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What you CANT do in argument

bad arguments fallacies schopenhaeur

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#1 Julia36

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Posted 17 September 2015 - 11:24 AM


Preamble

 

http://www.don-linds...c/arguments.htm

This list has been extended from Schopenhauer's orginal list http://www.mnei.nl/s...-stratagems.htm

 

"The tricks, dodges, and chicanery, to which they [men] resort in order to be right in the end, are so numerous and manifold and yet recur so regularly that some years ago I made them the subject of my own reflection..." 

 

Arthur Schopenhauer, Manuscript Remains in Four Volumes, Edited by Arthur Hübscher, Translated by E.F.J. Payne, Vol. III, "Berlin Manuscripts (1818-1830)," Berg, Oxford/New York/Munich, 1989, ISBN 0-85496-540-8

Schopenhaue 1831

 

 

 

One uses them unconsciusly and it may be helpful to periodically purge them to derive closer truth approximations in thinking and discussion. If we can find Truth we have  power.

 

Discovering the Truth can involve accurate observation and using an honest logic.

 

 

***************************************************************************************************

Things to avoid in Philosophical debate

 

 

from about 14 minutes in you can see British politician George Galloway using many of them.

 

 

 

==============================================================

 

 

How shoud we train as philosophers to debate without becoming mathematicians, and killing literature for symbols?

 

The effect on audiences is different in philsophical debate from pub;lic declamations like rousing a mass to a mob frenzying it enough to storm the Bastile.

 

An orator is not a rhetorician, and his aim can be to incite people. A politician is not a philosopher and his chief aim is to win support for his employment.

While it is true that the extreme rulers rule by oppression, without most people's support...however got...they would presumably leave office fast.

 

Power over men can be got by language-spoken and written - eg Demosthenes and Tom Paine respectively, but the solid work is science and technoilogy, and this is always led by philosophprs: absurd men who will not bend in their views to falsehood

 euphoria or assu,edtruth.

 

We need to test and retest the laws - not only of science but of every tool that has given them, like experiment, logic and theory.

 

Philosophy moves with literature / science fiction and while it is true all men are philosophres, it is also true that all men have errors in belief and method or there would be no advance.

 

Computers are not immune. Like plants they make errors where the environment encroaches, or where their sysetms cant acheive perfection by innate limitations.

 


Edited by the hanged man, 17 September 2015 - 11:52 AM.


#2 Julia36

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Posted 17 September 2015 - 01:32 PM

The debate above never incited a new style of popular debate such as grew in the last days of the Roman Republic, and which historically has led to the extension of debate to warfare..a move once thought to be final, because it was assumed when you have killed your oponent you have won the arguemenmt.

 

That conclusion has been proved by philosophers to be false because death is logically reversible, or it is not a physical process. see stopgam's thread on Quantum Archaeology and Frank Tipler's work.

 

As argument is to find the Truth, you cannot achieve a Truth by assasination. Nor any form of murder. The point remains, and the assasinated will revive.

 

Worse, in a moderated  argument, the chairman will declare your murder illegal and stricke it out, reviving the deceased.

 

That may be a feature of coming academic debates until the novelty of resurrection fades. There are already devices like guillotine motions:)

 

guillotine-o.gif

 

There are difficulties in how far one can get to the Truth of matters, and the answer may be never finally (Godel's theorem), but the closer  you get the more degrees of freedom you get, and the thought can  be extended as arguement ionto the rreal 3D or 4D (with time) world.

 

Philosophy becomes technology, ahdering to Wittgenstein's Bridge:

 

"What can be conceived/described can happen too"

 

and "Anything that can be said, can be said clearly."

 

Although debating tricks can be outright lies, a lie is not invalid, just contains less axioms than a relative truth, and in combat will always fall to it.

The observation that that doesn't help the soldier who has been killed is refuted by physical resurrection (above)

 

So the skillis always to strip to the closest truths we can find from agreed p[ropositipons.

 

Intriducing new fasct o0r propositions into an argument is not allowed in strict arguemnt, as the debate widens to unhelpful combinatorial explosions, where nothing might be concluded, ie no contrer intuitive conc;lusion may be rwached.

 

It is useful in arguemnt to simplify as  much a possible and to narrow as much as possible...to binary if possible.

 

Animated_Binary_Pic_2_by_Palaios.gif

 

 

 

 


Edited by the hanged man, 17 September 2015 - 01:40 PM.


#3 Multivitz

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 01:01 AM

What about the 5D world, the strange behavior of matter at quantum level is just a reflection of nature. The fact experiments shows behaviour of matter that is far intricate than monkey see monkey do. To me that demonstrates the emotional factor of matter/energy in nature. Gravity is not separate to magnetism, magnetism manifests in space and it can remains there. This is the denial that is imposed onto us, would any experiment showing this be deemed valid by mainstream science?
Don't take my words lightly, find out for yourselves, do some study research?
Context of words vibrate the consciousness, getting both debaters on the same page require both to hold similar evidence in there minds. Understanding scientific experiment results require interpretation, a satisfying interpretation can be found by understanding interpretation, try the Triviam as a starters.

Edited by Multivitz, 20 December 2015 - 01:15 AM.


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#4 Multivitz

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 10:15 AM

It's all well and good spending one's time looking at the work of past philosophers. If they were right we would be satified with there answers and we would need look no more.
Ok they are thought provoking and very good in their time. We have an opportunity the opportunity starts today. Never before has information been so freely available. There have been many, many experiments by like minded people who believed in freedom of choice. Don't let a group of devious people tell you there is no answers for you, like the ones that say you can't get anything to go faster than some speed of Light!
There's the degrees of freedom, the freedom of imagination. It should be restrained (imagination) to the realistic bounderies of scientific observation of evidence. Take Buckland currents, they have been observed travelling faster than the speed of light. That helps us realise Tesla's beliefs, does it not? Understanding Viktor Schulberger's lifes work is a must, modern experiments reinforce his ideas well.
With the climate of misinformation we find ourselves in, research becomes like the saying, 'can't see the wood for the trees' , following your heart won't help some either (if emotions have been stunted from birth by diet).
So where does that leave us? Sesptable to unbalanced ideas, out right lies, poor judgment, strange yearnings, agressive frustrations, showing off useless ideas, being truly confused without knowing it, being competitive in a free environment, forcing our shallow beliefs onto someone who hasn't done thier own research, feeling inadequate?
A good philosophy teacher will say 'keep your gard up there's plenty of people who mean well, but harbour incomplete views'. Teach yourself everything, if you have identified a skill that is lacking and not to your liking, reteach yourself? It's right to pick holes in everything, no, well I don't think thats a good way to look at someones LIFE study at all. They couldn't have been a mad person could they? Were they using customised materials? Why is there two sides of its main debate? Why is that? Why would someone else devote thier life trying to prove thier lifes work whilst disproving others, then admit they were wrong about the fundermental principle of thiers, then you find little media said on that fact. Why? If you want to be cautious at times of confusion then get the salts of the earth and return to find the confusion gone! The saying, 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks', fair enough, but I'm not a dog, and what is aging anyway? There's Alot of Liers saying this and that in all confidence they are PARROTING, the last word should be from the observer(that's you) saying 'thank you' after a presention of findings.

Edited by Multivitz, 20 December 2015 - 10:37 AM.


#5 Multivitz

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 11:13 AM

From the factor of 6 truth becomes fairly believable. A ring containing 6 notions of interunderstanding is usually infallible(for the observer). Comprehending readily know notions is usually straight forward! Thinking about the six notions at once is possible with an active third eye, but for how long? To me the number 6 has an amount that is reflected in natural orders of truth. Six requirements, six angles, six points of notiety, six values, six requirements of logic. There's something being reflected from our nature, is this number different when consciousness expands into other realms, comparartmentalising is futile, freedom always wins.

#6 Multivitz

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 12:39 PM

From the factor of 6 truth becomes fairly believable. A ring containing 6 notions of interunderstanding is usually infallible(for the observer). Comprehending readily know notions is usually straight forward! Thinking about the six notions at once is possible with an active third eye, but for how long? To me the number 6 has an amount that is reflected in natural orders of truth. Six requirements, six angles, six points of notiety, six values, six requirements of logic. There's something being reflected from our nature, is this number different when consciousness expands into other realms, comparartmentalising is futile, freedom always wins.
When one realises the 6 effect, reality can be improved by righteous intent, truths can be discovered, sometimes we find someone's discovered them before, and few people listened that time. In the Quadriviam there really should be SIX in my view, can anyone help me decide what the other 2 might be? The Quadriviam was started in the sixth century ffs.
In an argument one party yields to the other partie's truths, to me competitiveness is a pursuit of immature folly thats there to expand ones motivation capacities. The only argument of truths, therefore, must be within our own mind if one can consider themself to be matured mentally.
So how can mental maturity be diffinded, it is a fundermental question that has to have a believable answer for any embarkation is made into quests. imho
The definition of a mature Human Mind?
Define Mind.
Definition of mature, in the context of mentality.
Is old better than young, is there benefits? What is aging, if there is such a thing past pubity! Scalar theory seems mature.
Events are relative to the observer, what do we see with, our own mind?
Environment effects the mind.
I believe the mind is our whole body, and how it blends with the consciousness forms self. You can argue amongst yourselves, to argue with yourself is immature, to debate requires memory (because of the extra time taken listening to others) , to memorise needs similar facts of familiarity. The instantaneous realisation that something is correct, leaves the mind feeling like 'the penny has dropped'. Hesitation is a sign of diligence, actions may stop and mental cognition my slow, how one reacts to the emptiness of fear can hamper the journey. A mature mind is fearless because it's paths of beliefs are well trod.

Edited by Multivitz, 20 December 2015 - 01:09 PM.






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