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what's the self?

psychology philosophy self

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#1 Leonardo

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 11:01 PM


hello everyone,  I joined this forum a couple of years ago to learn more about nootropics and stacks, and I've enjoyed it ever since, although this is the first time I start a thread, so I hope you guys enjoy it.

 

I'm a psychology student and I wrote a small piece on the "self", which you can find here:

https://medium.com/@...3a49#.hbo350cb4

 

any opinion or criticism is welcomed. 



#2 Multivitz

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:53 AM



I'm a psychology student and I wrote a small piece on the "self", which you can find here:

https://medium.com/@...3a49#.hbo350cb4

any opinion or criticism is welcomed. [/quote]

Hi, I just read your paper and I thought it was ok.
I believe we mature as the body accumulates minerals. The saturation point of maturity seldom happens in this world, but when it does the ones experiencing it don't realise whats going on. Most people are held back by thier parasites amongst other things!
For those who get thier salts you'll find a healthy respect for logic and a sort of zen like ethos, almost like a trance. The brain and body calmly content in a crystalline order. With an open Pineal, and masterful realisation of oneself it becomes clear that the maturing process is like a reflex reaction anyone can do, with the right care of thier environment. What colours we see, what water we drink, what history our food we eat are all part of our environment. It contacts us, we control it as best we can.
If freedom is not held in high regard, then avenues of understanding can be stunted.
I believe memory is held outside in the light body, and the brain being like junction box, the spine/body the arial. The Self being a collection of vibrations of past lives reflecting complex emotional swirling into a juncture pushing forward into possibilities and potential of all.
The higher self (Jung) is only held back by the confusion of ones self, say, the lack of salts and thier balance. Ask yourself to ask the right questions and believe you will have faith in yourself to discover them, then the right question will come to you one way or another. It's a technique of logic the Mystics used, the Archons are one of thier findings. They tried to explain as best as they could with the dialect they had.
Basically everything is already known subconsciously(memory in the air) consciousness is in the field and spread in different levels until a singularity of the whole is realised i.e. we are all joined in nature and a focused mind can and does change the events we all can experience. The change is in perception, but when you are truly free(or feeling better) you'll find that a 'righteous will' can make stuff happen, make stuff happen before, time is no object. I guess it seems a bit far fetched, but once a criticlal saturation of minerals is met, then common sense takes over and levels of different emotions can be exercised and potentials realised. All moving the self towards maturity. Reality is what you make it, sharing is caring.
My opinions are strictly based on science, personal experience, and many shared experiences with other people. Until one has' lived in Zen', then it can seem very far fetched. Doing is learning, having a mind saturated in minerals allows it to empathise a hollographic imagination of someone elses experience for one self, without carring out the experience materially. Thus learning internally (most effective when mature?).
Lifes a trip, pay attention(if you can keep a healthy sense of awareness).
I hope freedom finds all who read this, thank you.

#3 pamojja

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 10:27 AM

For me the words of the Buddha come to mind, as for example:

 

 

To the Clothless Ascetic Sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 12.17:

''The one who acts is the one who experiences' [the result of the act] amounts to the eternalist statement, 'Existing from the very beginning, stress is self-made.'
- 'The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences' amounts to the annihilationist statement, 'For one existing harassed by feeling, stress is other-made.'

Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle:
- From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.
- From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.
- From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name & form.
- From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.
- From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.
- From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
- From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
- From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.
- From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.
- From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
- From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play.
Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'

 

 

 

 

 

Not oneself - not another Sutta, Udana 6.6:

... - Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed:
People are intent on the idea of 'made by me' and attached to the idea of 'made by another.'
- Some do not realize this, nor do they see it as a thorn. But to one who sees, having extracted this thorn, [the thought] 'I am doing,' doesn't occur; 'Another is doing,' doesn't occur.
This human race is possessed by conceit, bound by conceit, tied down by conceit. Speaking hurtfully because of their views they don't go beyond transmigration - they wander on.'

 



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#4 seivtcho

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 11:22 AM

@Leonardo , can you summarize in brief what is the self according to you?

 

 

With another person in this forum, @the hanged man we dicussed this thing a lot. Herie is the topic:

 

http://www.longecity...80365-identity/

 

In brief, my oppinion is, that the people are a single large changing mass of cells, with the same DNA.

 

That single large changing mass of cells, with the same DNA also obtain and use energy.

 

Existing forever, means maintaining this large mass of DNA equal cells and its properties forever.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by seivtcho, 04 November 2015 - 11:24 AM.

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#5 Multivitz

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 01:33 PM

Cool, that's selflessness at a biological level I'd say. The feeling of wanting to do anything for the fellow man. The defenition of love, the feeling of wanting to do stuff for someone/something.
Alot of this boils down to being a product of the environment, DNA is, emotion is(in terms of its capacity/ability), circumstance is. But there are concepts like Hope, Instincts, Love, Freedom that are all real and are used by anything, or anyone for any means that the self sees fit. Please remember ' time ' can be very flexable and detached from the material of observed life. So self is a word that links many things positive and negative, a concept for the individual. A concept of forces acting through a liquid crystal that is a human body at the moment, or any Cats that might be reading this lol
All the above are words I arranged myself from other times and places, thanks.

#6 seivtcho

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 07:26 AM

@Multivitz , do you believe, that the self is the DNA? I think very similarly. 


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#7 Multivitz

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 03:09 PM

The DNA helix is tube of matter that channels photons, fact. We can hypothesize about this, and some researchers are ahead of others in thier understandings. I personally haven't done any DNA research lately. This is partly because of my technique for learning myself, I believe that a book finds me, then I find the page with the info I was looking for. With the advent of the WWW I don't have trouble finding info. I find I have trouble finding new authors that vibrate with my understandings. Some have let me down over the years, and with misinformation plentiful it can slow one's learning curve. My confidence is such that I don't reference, if it's the truth then that is what it is, I am always ready to admitt something I said was wrong, after validating, but I won't lose any sleep over it because of all the mountains of misinformed authors spouting for whatever reason!
I think it could be theorized(the z looks more flash?) that it(DNA) has a strong function, and there are experiments that show interaction between organic matter though space/barriers.
If I lost alot of DNA I don't think I could operate my body to type here in a future post, I would move on, with all the reincarnation info it's foolhardy to think the self only exists through a biomass i.e. myself.
Anyway, my beliefs have had answers that satisfy my questions. As they say 'the hardest part is finding the right questions, not finding the answers!'.
As books find me, answers find me for sure, if I ask the right questions.
Seek and ye shall find, of something like that lol
The penny dropped feeling is when the physical short term frame of mind creats a circuit, all the pieces of info fall into place and we feel relief, a sense of understanding (not in the Legal sense of the word lol). Like Tesla and many others, we find answers/solutions will come from remote sources and just pop into our own knowing.
Oh no! I'm begining to sound like an author of a Mesmerism book, or something lol

Edited by Multivitz, 12 December 2015 - 03:41 PM.

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#8 Multivitz

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 03:26 PM

There are some that believe that if thier ancestors DNA is present, here on earth, that they will be able to connect back to the info of that past life. But that maybe true, after all, the revelations of some people who have investigated thier own past life reveals lifes lived from close family members and people in an area.
I'm in the self stands alone camp, but theres alway a freedom, Jainist get taught that freedom is the most important thing, you can decide if you want to believes in wether there is an all pervasive god, or not(now thats a free religion!). Jainism is one of the oldest, most religions are based on it, the explination of Karma comes from Jainism thousands of years before Buddism!

Edited by Multivitz, 12 December 2015 - 03:27 PM.

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#9 Multivitz

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 12:57 PM

This link has a very intresting comment about photonic emissions from DNA. Infact share the link where ever as you'll find it's fascinating reading with reference galore:)
http://www.human-res...m_trapping.html
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#10 seivtcho

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 01:08 PM

And why this has something to do with the topic?



#11 Blink

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 09:26 PM

I would suggest that the basic Self is that which is aware of the phenomenal experiences generated within the brain. Everything else like personality, feelings, memories and conditioning are external to it. Nobody knows what this basic Self really is. It's the hard problem of consciousness.


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#12 seivtcho

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Posted 13 December 2015 - 10:04 PM

How about if you receive a severe age related dementia and remember nothing and you loose the awareness of the experiences generated within your brain? Will the demented version of you will still be you? 



#13 johnross47

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 08:25 PM

I've watched somebody deteriorate, through Alzhiemers, from a highly intelligent academic to a non-self, an empty shell kept alive by outside interventions. The self, whatever that might be, is a product of the brain, an information construct that is wholly dependent on the physical processes of the brain to sustain it. When the brain goes the self goes. Any mystical vapourings on the subject are just empty of meaning and substance.


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#14 seivtcho

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 09:35 AM

Sorry to hear for the person you wrote about. This is a very serious problem indeed, that a cure must be found.

According to the biology, even with a demented brain, the organism is still alive, because it is an organism with the sam DNA. According to the medicine the person is still alive, since his/her own life supporting systems work - the circulatory, the respiratory system, etc.

So at this moment I still remain on my position, that the DNA is the leading for determining who we are.

 



#15 pamojja

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 01:47 PM

When the brain goes the self goes. Any mystical vapourings on the subject are just empty of meaning and substance.

 

So at this moment I still remain on my position, that the DNA is the leading for determining who we are.

 

Self is a mental construct which is gone when it's co-factors are done. DNA is just one of many.


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#16 seivtcho

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 01:57 PM

Then you are periodically dying. Your mental construct from your baby years is death, your mental construct from your childhood is death, and your mental construct of youtr teens is death. Your current mental construct will be death too after several decades. Eachtime you change your oppinion on some subject your past you dissapears, and your new you appears on its place.



#17 Leonardo

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 07:50 PM

Then you are periodically dying. Your mental construct from your baby years is death, your mental construct from your childhood is death, and your mental construct of youtr teens is death. Your current mental construct will be death too after several decades. Eachtime you change your oppinion on some subject your past you dissapears, and your new you appears on its place.

 

yes, precisely. 



#18 Blink

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 08:33 PM

How about if you receive a severe age related dementia and remember nothing and you loose the awareness of the experiences generated within your brain? Will the demented version of you will still be you? 

 

If I have no awareness at all, then I'm unable to define myself or to know anything at all. So then I'm simply not there. But if there is some awareness left in the demented brain, then there is also a self. Well, I'm defining self as awareness basically. Of course there are also broader definitions of self that would include things like genome, memories and so on. But I'm trying to define the essence of self.



#19 seivtcho

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 08:47 PM

If you live long enough, you will certainly receive an age related dementia. Its appearance is inevitable if you live extraordinarly long.

In your view, does this mean, that when you remember nothing from your past, you are death?

How about if the age related dementia becomes treatable?



#20 Blink

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 09:27 PM

No I don't define myself as equal to memories. Memories are something that the self has, and therefore not something that it is. The self may have no long term memories at all but still exist, as long as there's short term memory (which I think is necessary to have any awareness at all).

 

Lets consider another extreme. A human being that behaves just like any other but lacks qualia - i.e. every action and thought is performed subconsciously, and there's no conscious awareness of these processes. The brain is processing information and doing all that it should, but there's no experiencer inside. Would you say that this being has a self?



#21 seivtcho

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 09:35 PM

No, but I will say, that this being is alive :)



#22 Leonardo

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 10:30 PM

No I don't define myself as equal to memories. Memories are something that the self has, and therefore not something that it is. The self may have no long term memories at all but still exist, as long as there's short term memory (which I think is necessary to have any awareness at all).

 

Lets consider another extreme. A human being that behaves just like any other but lacks qualia - i.e. every action and thought is performed subconsciously, and there's no conscious awareness of these processes. The brain is processing information and doing all that it should, but there's no experiencer inside. Would you say that this being has a self?

 

saying that it behaves like any other would mean that it still follows certain rules, or conditions set by society, which means there is some form of consciousness, even though there are no signs of higher cognitive functioning

but if you are talking of an hypothetical weird condition in which a person can feed himself and such, but has no conscious of it, again, it would still follow basic primitive principles, like a zombie from pop culture

 

we could say that zombies share the same "basic" self, if they were to exist, as their only impulse is to feed themselves, and here we see that the higher the cognitive abilities, the more a self can develop



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#23 Multivitz

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 01:12 AM

Ok who has seen an inerview with someone who has come back from a traumatic situation of the brain? The brain is an antenna as far as it's material existance is, and one could successfully postulate DNA has the same properties.
Then there's the accounts of comma patients. Its when the spirit leaves they are passing over. imho

Theres a great interview with a Tibetan monk thats an eye opener. He recalls the times that he was an insect and other forms of life, he sounded genuine to me. I will try to find it again.

Edited by Multivitz, 18 December 2015 - 01:38 AM.


#24 Multivitz

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 02:02 AM

The mummification principles of the anciet Egypion were taken from previous civilisations. They took out the various organs and kept impotant parts, from researchers like Din Winters they explain why the parts were kept. The brain was one of the things disgarded!

Edited by Multivitz, 18 December 2015 - 02:03 AM.

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#25 Multivitz

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 02:15 AM

Oh dear, I hope you guys have an open mind to possibilies in life and there after. If we are a product of plasma, and plasma can leave imprints of information in space(Harry Oldfield explains Kerlian and deals with some ghosts, seeing is believing) whats the next logical step? Has anyone here seen the videos about the a 'Book of the dead'?
Oh dear, that's too mumbo jumbo for you? There's quite a few million people who regard it as valuable. Just saying...
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#26 Multivitz

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 02:51 AM

Then theres the guy on TED talks. He explains the logic and chance math associating the likely outcome of doing nothing. I apply it to my beliefs, if I was wrong, I wouldn't lose any pride. Myself thinks beliefs are the deep subconscious frames that guides my conscious reasoning through natural logic, after my time experiencing none duality thought, it makes complete sense. The higher self is very logical but very experienced, it comunicates the best it can, driving synchronicity if you haven't noticed!
Time compression or event perception compression exists, time travel attempts would be a sure way to damage life. It would interfere with the fabric of potentials, or maybe appear like an invisible glass wall of sorts, until the device making it was turned off for some time.
Silica, I belive, it's an oygen carrier, it acts as an efficient photon bridge through protien matrixes, you think you're sensitive, imagine having an extra eye that looks up and make use of your photon rainbow cloud, tied into a photon channelling network that sends info and energy to organs that have currently has dormant purposes.
That last bit I don't have to imagine, please don't feel bad for me, we are all special, how deeply special is hidden by beliefs and the variety of molecule presence in the protien matrix of the flesh.
Hope will never die, never say never...doh!

Edited by Multivitz, 18 December 2015 - 02:55 AM.

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#27 Blink

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 08:10 AM

 

No I don't define myself as equal to memories. Memories are something that the self has, and therefore not something that it is. The self may have no long term memories at all but still exist, as long as there's short term memory (which I think is necessary to have any awareness at all).

 

Lets consider another extreme. A human being that behaves just like any other but lacks qualia - i.e. every action and thought is performed subconsciously, and there's no conscious awareness of these processes. The brain is processing information and doing all that it should, but there's no experiencer inside. Would you say that this being has a self?

 

saying that it behaves like any other would mean that it still follows certain rules, or conditions set by society, which means there is some form of consciousness, even though there are no signs of higher cognitive functioning

but if you are talking of an hypothetical weird condition in which a person can feed himself and such, but has no conscious of it, again, it would still follow basic primitive principles, like a zombie from pop culture

 

we could say that zombies share the same "basic" self, if they were to exist, as their only impulse is to feed themselves, and here we see that the higher the cognitive abilities, the more a self can develop

 

 

Yes it's hypothetical. Conscious awareness is something we take for granted. But it's really a mystery. Because I see no reason why the brain couldn't do without it - if we see the brain basically as a complex biological machine for processing information. Like a robot or a zombie. For example, I have a robot cleaner, and it knows when it needs to feed / recharge and it can find it's way back to the charging station by it's own. Would you say that this robot also has a basic self? And if not, why is there a self inside a human being while there is non inside a robot. What's the critical difference?


Edited by Blink, 18 December 2015 - 08:19 AM.

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#28 Leonardo

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 07:11 PM

 

 

No I don't define myself as equal to memories. Memories are something that the self has, and therefore not something that it is. The self may have no long term memories at all but still exist, as long as there's short term memory (which I think is necessary to have any awareness at all).

 

Lets consider another extreme. A human being that behaves just like any other but lacks qualia - i.e. every action and thought is performed subconsciously, and there's no conscious awareness of these processes. The brain is processing information and doing all that it should, but there's no experiencer inside. Would you say that this being has a self?

 

saying that it behaves like any other would mean that it still follows certain rules, or conditions set by society, which means there is some form of consciousness, even though there are no signs of higher cognitive functioning

but if you are talking of an hypothetical weird condition in which a person can feed himself and such, but has no conscious of it, again, it would still follow basic primitive principles, like a zombie from pop culture

 

we could say that zombies share the same "basic" self, if they were to exist, as their only impulse is to feed themselves, and here we see that the higher the cognitive abilities, the more a self can develop

 

 

Yes it's hypothetical. Conscious awareness is something we take for granted. But it's really a mystery. Because I see no reason why the brain couldn't do without it - if we see the brain basically as a complex biological machine for processing information. Like a robot or a zombie. For example, I have a robot cleaner, and it knows when it needs to feed / recharge and it can find it's way back to the charging station by it's own. Would you say that this robot also has a basic self? And if not, why is there a self inside a human being while there is non inside a robot. What's the critical difference?

 

 

 

I would say that it has an artificial basic self, programmed by an external entity.

When it comes to us, we developed it naturally, through evolutionary needs, with no programming from the outside.

 

Going deeper into A.I we can see that a much higher self can develop with advancements in the field, and we could be rendered useless, in quite a short period of time.



#29 Blink

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 09:32 PM

I would say that it has an artificial basic self, programmed by an external entity.
When it comes to us, we developed it naturally, through evolutionary needs, with no programming from the outside.
 
Going deeper into A.I we can see that a much higher self can develop with advancements in the field, and we could be rendered useless, in quite a short period of time.

 
What about qualia / conscious experience? In my view it's a must for there to be a self of any kind. I don't think robots have qualia - at least not the kinds of robots we can construct at this time. It's probably completely unaware of anything at all. There's no self to experience the information that's being processed in it's hardware.

 

Of course I cannot know for certain whether robots or even other human beings have qualia or not. I can only guess. Anyhow you seem to have a definition of self that is independent of qualia. Is that so?



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#30 Multivitz

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 12:29 AM

Ergo what is real, is the self real? Are our experiences a trustwothy and honest reflection of the our environment? I think a none duality view answers many questions one may have by seeing the right question. To experience none duality one would have to get their third eye working. The radiological communication the two halves of the Cerebral Cortex get is made possible with the DMT the Pineal produces. This promotes the growth of nerve fibres to increase cross Cortical communication. Salmonella, Serotonin, and DMT have common symptoms when over dosed, I'll leave it there.
Sometimes realising one's Self requires experience of the environment you don't see with your eyes, say, predicting a phone call, we've all done it (alot?). Rupert Sheldrake gets results with some convincing thought provoking experiments, not forgeting his students.
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