18 replies to this topic

[gell]

I received my order of Deprenyl a few days ago, I have taken 5 mg a day and am at the end of my second day.

I have felt tired all day, I had a couple of hours sleep this afternoon and now I am buzzing like a top, wide awake at 2am!

Now from experience anything which I have taken that acts on the dopamine system always seems to pack a punch.

When I was 17/18 and I smoked cannabis regularly and half a joint would knock me way off with the fairies, now after being free of it for over 10 years a couple of puffs knocks me out.... (This is not in conjuction with the deprenyl I am now taking).

I tried GHB once and that was a bit of a rollercoaster ride, the dopamine rebound kept me awake for hours!

Tonight friends have commented that I am not my usual talkative self...

As a side note, I was on the SSRI Prozac (Different pathway I know but added for reference) for 3 months (bad relationship breakup 10 years ago) - I was on 20mg a day and just stopped cold... no withdrawl or anything which suprised a few people?

Are there any biological reasons for my reactions to these compunds, or am I just clutching at coincidences.
In my fathers side my Nan and Great grandmother both had Alzeihmers (sp?) from an early age 45+ and they deteriorated over 15 years. My father does not show any signs of it at 54 but his brother has always been on anti depressants.

I am 30 years old and intend to keep taking the deprenyl, but I will lower the dose to suit. I have noticed a positive side effect in that I am usually self conscious of others 'looking at me' but that isn't the case when I was in town today.

Thanks for any opinions offered, this is my first post so be gentle, if you want any other info feel free to ask.

(On another note I tried Piracetam and Choline and it was great, very alert although I cut back on the choline as it was disrupting my sleep, I now take 650mg of bitartate with 4g of Piracetam, anymore and I get a headache - any relevance to the above? - I'm left handed so I have a larger corpus callosum)

[rfarris]

I received my order of Deprenyl a few days ago, I have taken 5 mg a day and am at the end of my second day.

Is that the same as saying "I took a pill once?"

[gell]

I received my order of Deprenyl a few days ago, I have taken 5 mg a day and am at the end of my second day.

Is that the same as saying "I took a pill once?"

Seeing as I had taken 5mg 'a day' and was at the end of my 'second day' I don't think so.

I am aware this could be my body reacting to the drug for the first time which is why I didn't ask if it was the case of not, this is why I also intend to stay on the course albeit at a lower dose (to ride out any initial effects).

I asked if there was a reason why I react to these compunds so strongly, nothing else.

Gell

[gell]

I'll give that a try, I feel really dopey right now, and I've been awake 2 hours!

[philmicans]

It sounds to me like your Deprenyl dosage is too high. Dosages for someone in their 30's is generally recommended at about 1mg per day (with regular breaks). Of course dosage depends greatly upon condition and need, averages are always quoted. Generally speaking some people are catecholamine driven, (dysfunction of which is more related to Parkinsons) others serotoninergic driven (dysfunction of which is more related to Alzheimers). Generally speaking one can tell if dopamine is too high because one becomes aggressive, short tempered and reactionary. The opposite with high serotonin levels would be laid back, easy going and "uncaring." For these reasons that is why those of us at IAS generally prefer and recommend the liquid citrate version of deprenyl, there are a few advantages, but the fact that 1 drop can titrate 1mg is the primary one. See some information/ detail at:
http://www.antiaging...nylselepryl.htm
http://www.antiaging...2z/deprenyl.htm
http://www.antiaging...ract/depren.htm
http://www.antiaging...prenylmulti.htm
And for those of you who love the full blown technical stuff, see Jozeph Knoll MD PharmD (the inventor of deprenyl) article at: http://www.antiaging...ylmechanism.htm

[rfarris]

...those of us at IAS generally prefer and recommend the liquid citrate version of deprenyl, there are a few advantages, but the fact that 1 drop can titrate 1mg is the primary one.

Phil,

How would I titrate the deprenyl? Would you suggest taking a mg/day for a week, then 2 mg/day, and so on until I hit the agressive stage? Is a week too long? Too short?

I'm thinking that once I titrate the correct dosage, it would be cheaper to go back to the pill form and crush/split the pills once I know how much I want to take daily...

[velocidex]

I'm sorry but this "1mg per day if you're 30" thingis complete rubbish. You're AIMING to inhibit MAO-B as far as possible without inhibiting MAO-A.

I'm 22 and have done courses of 5 mg per day for a month and had no problems. Thought it was fucking fantastic actually.

For those who claim this dose is too much: tell me what the adverse side effects are then?

[wannafulfill]

Velocidex, you may be "aiming to inhibit MAO-B as far as possible", but many of us are not. No one knows for sure why selegiline extends lifespan in animals, but it likely has to do with the upregulation of superoxide dismutase in certain areas of the brain, which occurs at doses that do not strongly inhibit MAO-B.

We are not saying usage in higher doses is unsafe, just that the smaller doses are less of a risk.

[velocidex]

^ You're correct, in that some studies show the propargylamine related neuroprotection may occur at doses 2 orders of magnitude smaller. This doesn't seem to be the entire origin of the nootropic benefit however; most people who take 1mg per day or so report little benefit... the clear benefit usually comes from 5mg per day.

In terms of MAOB inhibition acting in a longevity supporting manner, many potent neurotoxins found only become neurotoxic via conversion through MAOB. That is, the substance is a protoxin, active only upon interaction with MAOB. In these cases, MAOB diminution confers a protective effect.

It's also worth considering what role dopamine catabolism plays (i.e. via consequent oxidative species)

[ozone]

@gell
Do a search for my post on my experience on Deprnyl. I tried both the pill form and liquid form and had the same effect. I took doses around 2.5mg for a few days and holy crap was I tired. Like, I couldn't even keep my eyes open. I thought maybe it was just conversion to a massive amount of SO in the brain, but a bunch of KRALA did not help. So the moral was, I found that Deprnyl does not work for me like it works for others. Maybe you are in the same boat.

[helza]

ozone, isn't that exactly what da_sense said..

Could be a number of reasons, most of the people i know that tried deprenyl had a urge to take afternoon nap for the first week or so and felt unusuall mental energy when they woke up. Depending on dose, after about 1-2 weeks things get back to balance.

Maybe you should give your body some time to adjust (and maybe starting with lower dosage for the first week and then slowly upping it?

[ozone]

ozone, isn't that exactly what da_sense said..


Maybe you should give your body some time to adjust (and maybe starting with lower dosage for the first week and then slowly upping it?

Well maybe I should have expanded upon my explanation. I consider an afternoon nap to be about an hour. That was not the case for me. I would fall asleep around noon and sleep for about 9 hours. When I woke up, I would still be tired and around 12am would go back to bed. This effect lasted for a week until I stopped, and then about a week thereafter.

[kenj]

Well maybe I should have expanded upon my explanation. I consider an afternoon nap to be about an hour. That was not the case for me. I would fall asleep around noon and sleep for about 9 hours. When I woke up, I would still be tired and around 12am would go back to bed. This effect lasted for a week until I stopped, and then about a week thereafter.

Have you tried anything else to boost dopamine and what was your reaction?

[ozone]

Have you tried anything else to boost dopamine and what was your reaction?

I don't believe so. There aren't many OTC substances that really "boost" dopamine. I've taken a lot of other supplements in the past (Choline, Omega-3, Pricetam, KRALA, ALCAR, ALCAR-Arginate, Vinpo, Hyp-A, Galanatmine, L-glutamine, Siberian Ginseng, L-Tyrosine, L-Theanine, Ginko Biloba, Bacopa, NAC, Melatonin, 5-HTP, Co-Q10, DMAE... mind you, that's not all at once, and some of that stuff I don't even take anymore. But out of all of that, I've never had such a reaction as I did while on Deprnyl.

[philmicans]

QUOTE] (rfarris): How would I titrate the deprenyl? Would you suggest taking a mg/day for a week, then 2 mg/day, and so on until I hit the aggressive stage? Is a week too long? Too short?[/quote]

There is of course more to it than just age, but somehow we have to start with some guidelines. Obviously it is easier to titrate the liquid because 1-drop is 1mg, if you know what you are doing with the small 5mg and prepared to do accurate division then that can be achieved too, but clearly is more problematic etc.

As a guide it has been as follows:

Age Dosage
35-45 1 mg/ day
45-50 2 mg/ day
50-55 3 mg/ day
55-60 4 mg/ day
60-65 5 mg/ day
65-70 6 mg/ day
70-75 8 mg/ day
75-80 9 mg/ day
80 over 10mg/ day

However there are many (Ward Dean MD) included, who believe it is sensible to take sabbaticals, perhaps a week each month or a weekend each week- free of deprenyl use. This is uncharted territory and whilst it may be "fucking fantastic" (to quote someone else in this thread) to take large doses to crush MAO-B inhibition and experience a strong "lift" (which may be unrelated to MAO-B inhibition- read on) that is hardly the kind of "scientific/ cautious" approach that we may like to use in medicine.... especially for those who would want to continue on this regular deprenyl use path for decades, even life.

Occasional breaks also allow to help prevent down-regulation, and it is clear with deprenyl that those first few doses are always the most active and that repeat ones are unlikely to have anything like the same "kick." There were of course the British trials of some years ago that showed when deprenyl was taken in combination with L-dopa (at least for Parkinson's patients) that it shortened their lives! Today it is now widely accepted that those trials were flawed, however it is still considered that long-term use of deprenyl should be reduced to the lowest possible effective dose. Often one should not expect instant effects from drugs but allow time to notice the difference, this is especially true of anti-depressants and we must remember that both nutrition and medicine are not comparable to horse power races. Too often (in my opinion) companies- especially nutritional ones- offer super high strength offerings- not because there is any evidence of benefit, but because too many consumers believe "more is better."

Jozeph Knoll MD PharmD is the world expert in deprenyl, his comments to me were that it takes about 3-weeks of deprenyl abstinence to return MAO-B levels to your normal level, so that can aid as a yard stick. However, he know fully believes that the main beneficial action of deprenyl is NOT its MAO-B inhibition, but its enhancer action upon catecholamines, especially PEA (phenylethylamine), for which its brain concentrations can be increased many fold (compared to dopamine) albeit for short periods. You can read in-depth stuff about this at: http://www.antiaging...ylmechanism.htm

I hope nobody gets me "wrong" in my epistle, I believe deprenyl is one of the most important and effective anti-aging substances we have to hand, but there is more to it than just its MAO-B action, and as a drug it should be treated with respect. I also say that as a libertarian, informed experimentation is the order of the day.

Lastly, on the subject of MAO-B inhibition, if that's your true goal then look into the new drug Rasagiline (brand name Azilect). http://www.antiaging...a2z/azilect.htm Its MAO-B action is considered to be 5-10 times greater than deprenyl. Indeed some of the Parkinson's patients who have switched from deprenyl to it are doing much better, plus the benefits are noted quickly, often within days. Does this mean Rasagiline is better than Deprenyl for us anti-aging folks? (Taking price out of the equation of course), well guess what? It's far too early to say but if I were you I'd keep my eye on it!

Edited by philmicans, 10 November 2005 - 06:02 PM.

[oilfieldpilot]

In my fathers side my Nan and Great grandmother both had Alzeihmers (sp?) from an early age 45+ and they deteriorated over 15 years. My father does not show any signs of it at 54 but his brother has always been on anti depressants.

Look at Galantamine! Impressive results so far in research; also it's pretty easily available (still) as just galantamine. The Rx name is Aricept. Plenty of noo' suppliers carry good quality galantamine; and it kinda falls in the mid price range for other top quality nootropics.

I think it's worth a look at since you also have the parts and alls of alzheimers in your bloodline.


good luck!
ofp

[philmicans]

galantamine. The Rx name is Aricept.

No, the RX name of Galantamine is REMINYL, the drug you have quoted (ARICEPT) is Donepezil. Galantamine is an interesting drug though it works differently from deprenyl.