• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
* * * - - 1 votes

Most bang for buck for achieving immortality


  • Please log in to reply
102 replies to this topic

Poll: At the moment, which alternative gives most bang for buck for achieving immortality, for me individually? (98 member(s) have cast votes)

At the moment, which alternative gives most bang for buck for achieving immortality, for me individually?

  1. Donating to MPrize (44 votes [46.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.81%

  2. Buying supplements (50 votes [53.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.19%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#61 icyT

  • Guest
  • 326 posts
  • 2 ₮
  • Location:Canada
  • NO

Posted 28 November 2005 - 04:06 AM

I might not live longer, but i'll live happier :)

This is rather offensive, if you want happiness over immortality why are you here? I think immortality should be the primary goal for everyone here. We should be willing to sacrifice our happiness for it.

Of course, happiness from what I've seen is good for people's health, so it's ideal to have both. :) I'm not about to reduce my happiness if there's no reason for it, that's just silly. If it's denying yourself from damaging mediums or eating disgusting but healthy food though, it should be done.

#62 rfarris

  • Guest
  • 462 posts
  • 7 ₮
  • Location:32° 56' 26" 117° 01' 22"

Posted 28 November 2005 - 05:15 AM

This is rather offensive, if you want happiness over immortality why are you here? I think immortality should be the primary goal for everyone here.

If you really believe that, why don't you contribute some money to ImmInst and become a full member?

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#63 doug123

  • Guest
  • 2,424 posts
  • -1 ₮
  • Location:Nowhere

Posted 03 August 2006 - 10:40 PM

This topic is worth a bump. Does anyone want to retroactively change their votes?

I can't believe so many people actually voted for supplements given there is no supporting evidence.

Michael lays down the facts....can anyone present a worthwhle rebuttal to his (or Opales) arguments?


This study didn't actually show a maximum LS extension. The supplemented animals as a cohort lived no longer than the controls; there was one outlier female who lived quite exceptionally long. Because the standard at the time was for animals were housed in group cages, it is impossible to be absolutely sure of the age of any particular organism, and actually possible that it was weeks or even months younger than its putative cohorts; and, IAC, it may have had exceptional genetics because of mutation or what have you.

The point is that one animal does not a meaningful result make. For exactly this reason, "maximum lifespan" is not operationally defined by serious biogerontologists today as "the longest-lived single animal in the cohort," but as "the average LS of the longest-lived decile of the cohort. By this measure, as by av'g LS or a visual inspection of the survival curves, selenium did nothing for the animals once you remove the outlier -- and in fact increased carcinogenesis.

This is parallel to observations in other studies, tho' I have no references at my fingertips.

No supplement has ever shown a demonstrable increase in maximum LS in normal, healthy, well-cared-for organisms -- ie, relative to a control group with mean & max LS of >900 & 1200 days, respectively, in mice. By contrast, this is routinely achieved in modern CR studies.


For the moment, supplements can be a minor insurance policy, and there are a couple of exotics that might be worth the experiment (R(+)-LA, benfotiamine, pyridoxamine (if you can get it clean -- and I'm not aware of any such source at the moment), but they simply cannot be justified on an evidence-based, risk: benefit analysis. CR and the MPrize are the only reasonable investments for radical life extension.

-Michael

1: Schroeder HA, Mitchener M.
Selenium and tellurium in rats: effect on growth, survival and tumors.
J Nutr. 1971 Nov;101(11):1531-40. No abstract available.
PMID: 5124041 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=5124041



#64 opales

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 892 posts
  • 15 ₮
  • Location:Espoo, Finland

Posted 03 August 2006 - 11:06 PM

Nice bump, this thread is a classic for various reasons. For example, these gems were laid out with a straight face:

http://www.imminst.o...t=0

I have several degrees, a very high IQ, and i really don't care to discuss this subject with newcomers such as you and Michael.


http://www.imminst.o...=20

You’ll forgive me if I don’t post would alot of references but you can review Medline, as I an in the process of writing over 100 articles on supplements, drugs, and causes and factors of antiaging. And still working on my first book.


Personally if did an animal study with what i know I would probably win the MPrize.


[lol]

#65 Shepard

  • Member, Director, Moderator
  • 6,360 posts
  • 932 ₮
  • Location:Auburn, AL

Posted 03 August 2006 - 11:54 PM

Yeah, LM's argument that he could win the MPrize was one comment that set off my "WTF sense". I don't remember which way I voted back then, but I'd be confident on my vote now.

#66 Athanasios

  • Guest
  • 2,616 posts
  • 163 ₮
  • Location:Texas

Posted 04 August 2006 - 12:23 AM

Michael lays down the facts....can anyone present a worthwhle rebuttal to his (or Opales) arguments?


The best argument I can see is the belief that the mouse prize, or even anti-aging research itself, will not be the catalyst that creates an extended lifespan. For example, something like the novamente project creates a powerful AGI that makes these breathroughs, or the first breakthroughs come from cancer research, or nanotech and the knowledge of gene pathways give us the boost towards longevity achievments.

In this scenario it is how long you live, squaring the curve, that would matter most, because that squaring could let you live 'til the exponential increase in knowledge/computing/technology reached the threshold that led to the advances.

When I hear that no supplement has increased total longevity, I think, that sqaring the curve is an awful lot of years from a technology standpoint.

#67 jaydfox

  • Guest
  • 6,214 posts
  • 1 ₮
  • Location:Atlanta, Georgia

Posted 04 August 2006 - 03:13 AM

I think that some minimal level of supplements, even on top of a good diet and exercise, could probably pay off better in the personal case (i.e., if you don't care about how many lives you save, except your own).

However, there would be a point of diminishing returns, where the next $85 (or even just $10) spent per month would be better spent on the MPrize. Whether that point of diminishing returns is somewhere around $20/mo or $100/mo or $500/mo, I can't say. For me, I have a budget of about $30/mo for supplements (just the basics), but I wouldn't be surprised if the cross-over point in the personal case is several hundred dollars.

Of course, if 300 of us banded together, that cross-over point would be lower. For example, very few elections come down to one vote, yet if an entire group of people (be it college students or transhumanists or whatever) decides not to vote because they think it's too much hassle and "my vote won't make a difference", then as a group, it makes a big difference, and elections can be lost that way. Just one of us deciding to reduce his or her supplements budget in order to support the MPrize might not make a big difference, but if 500 of us did, it would be worth it (IMO), even in the personal case.

#68 doug123

  • Guest
  • 2,424 posts
  • -1 ₮
  • Location:Nowhere

Posted 28 August 2006 - 12:58 AM

I think that some minimal level of supplements, even on top of a good diet and exercise, could probably pay off better in the personal case (i.e., if you don't care about how many lives you save, except your own).


Good diet and excercise would be the primary way (according to the most evidence) to live and long and healthy life.

See the following:

http://www.imminst.o...=169&t=11800&s=

However, there would be a point of diminishing returns, where the next $85 (or even just $10) spent per month would be better spent on the MPrize. Whether that point of diminishing returns is somewhere around $20/mo or $100/mo or $500/mo, I can't say. For me, I have a budget of about $30/mo for supplements (just the basics), but I wouldn't be surprised if the cross-over point in the personal case is several hundred dollars.


I think that the point of diminishing returns would depend on your current health, diet and excercise habits, IQ (emotional and otherwise), genetics, whether (or not!) you have access to modern medical care and utilize the most advanced "life saving technologies" currently available (e.g. mammagrams for women, colonscopies before 50 y.o., rountine blood work, etc. -- oh, and do you have health insurance and what does your coverage provide [if in US or another country without subsized health care]?) your sources of supplements and drugs (do you buy pre encapsulated or encapsulate yourself -- do your supplement/drug sources use low quality ingredients and are they possibly contaminated?) etc. I also think your degree of education is somewhat involved, and perhaps if you question authority or know how to think critically and examine evidence: this topic is an example of what happens when inviduals don't do that.

It is well known that individuals with lower IQ seem to benefit more from some drugs (such as was illustrated in the Tomorrows People conference link in webcast below) that individuals with high inherent IQ. So those with super high IQs, already in excellent health, would seem to get diminishing returns even at the $30 rate.

Nick Boström on cognitive enhancement, webcast presentation at the Oxford conf.
http://streaming.oii...6/16032006-1.rm

Meanwhile an individual with a reasonably low IQ, excercising vigourously, and eating poorly -- with no health insurance might indeed be able to benefit from a $300 stack and not see any diminishing returns (an appointment with an MD to assess health w/o insurance could cost $300! -- filling a prescription for a newly patented drug could cost $500-$1,000 per month!)...so I guess there are more factors than I previously mentioned. Like, for example, if you suffer from ADD or epilepsy, etc.

#69 Anthony_Loera

  • Life Member
  • 3,175 posts
  • 750 ₮
  • Location:Miami Florida

Posted 12 May 2008 - 04:17 AM

For those that can... please choose both...

:|w

For those that can't spend on both...
I ask you to please take care of your own health first, until you have enough to spend on both.


A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 12 May 2008 - 04:19 AM.


#70 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,905 posts
  • 2,000 ₮
  • Location:Wausau, WI
  • ✔

Posted 21 November 2008 - 05:15 PM

I suppose it depends on your age as well. If you are young your chance of getting some mortal disease is low and you can reasonably expect some significant anti-aging therapies within your lifetime, thus you could hedge toward spending more money on research/m-prize. If older you might need to focus more on staying alive as long as possible and maybe hedge more toward supps and the health angle.

#71 brokenportal

  • Life Member, Moderator
  • 7,046 posts
  • 589 ₮
  • Location:Stevens Point, WI

Posted 21 November 2008 - 07:33 PM

Mprize, mprize, mprize, and then some more mprize. Then some more mprize, a little more, and then when it starts to really hurt to give, a little more mprize after that.

It seems to me this question is like asking the people of the ww11 era whether they think that donating to and supporting the d day invasion, or taking supplements gives them more bang for their buck.

I mean, take supplements, ya sure, but focus in on the invasion.

#72 100YearsToGo

  • Guest
  • 204 posts
  • 1 ₮
  • Location:Netherlands Antilles

Posted 22 November 2008 - 01:48 AM

For those capable of understanding, who do the research on deprenyl, and have an intricate insights into the aging process know deprenyl and CR diet are the most proven means of increasing lifespan in animals and hold the best promise of compounds currently available for helping to increase lifespan in humans.


While few studies on supplements have shown a maximum lifespan effect (partly because very few people fund the research) the drug deprenyl has been studied with healthy mice showing an effect of increasing maximum lifespan.(1,2, see http://www.imminst.o...t...mp;t=384&s= for more research)


I actually already brought this up in a thread (without anyone responding), but.. Michael, for example brought very reasonable sounding severe criticism on deprenyl on another thread here. So again, what is your response to that?

http://www.imminst.o...amp;#entry51442

quotes:

Deprenyl is often cited as a counterexample, but it really isn't. Yes, Knoll made an exciting single report (and repeated it in several journals), but he's the ONLY person to report an extension of max LS: lots of others show increases in av'g bu t not max, no extension at all, or even *increased* mortality. Flat ad hominem: Knoll had the patent on the stuff. See the desperate attempts to reconcile the data between different studies on pp. 3-8, esp. the lifespan discussions on pp 7-8, of (1). Much of this info (but without, alas, the unpublished stuff sumarized in (1)) is put in a tabular form in (2), which makes the fundamental lack of anything like a logical pattern in the results clear. IMO, this shows pretty clearly that even if you believe there's something to it as a life-extension drug, there is just no way that one can rationally USE it as such at this time as there is no basis upon which to reasonably extrapolate a dose which can be expected to consistently extend even AV'G LS in humans.


There are no trials in normal, healthy humans, & the studies in both early and late PD are in sum quite inconclusive on the safety of deprenyl. See:

http://groups.google.....4A@aimnet.com
http://groups.google.....BC@aimnet.com
http://groups.google.....84@aimnet.com

http://bmj.com/cgi/c...ll/317/7153/252
http://bmj.com/cgi/c...l/316/7139/1191
http://groups.google...p;output=gplain

(The first 3 largely go over the same ground, albeit from slightly
different angles; the others cover newer material).

..........................

It doesn't appear to give any reliable benefits in animal systems; it seems to kill the folks it's designed to TREAT; I just do not see how the risk:benefit calculation can be fudged to make it come out in favor of use by young, healthy people.


So when I say that "Knoll made an exciting single report (and repeated it in several journals), but he's the ONLY person to report an extension of max LS: lots of others show increases in av'g bu t not max, no extension at all, or even *increased* mortality", I'm referring to this failure to extend the normal, healthy organism's lifespan, not to the alleviation of premature mortality in short-lived strains or animals raised under poor husbandry. It's easy to reduce mortality by antioxidants in short-lived strains or chorts -- it's been done with any number of compounds, from Harnam on -- and deprenyl has certainly been reported to do this several times, although (again) it has also increased mortality in others (eg (6)).


That does not seem like strong case for deprenyl at all, it might actually be a life shortening drug. The two papers you refer to, actually relying on the ONE same study, were made by the patent owner of deprenyl J. Knoll (expliting also other questionable scientific behaviour, making one very suspicious of any results made by him regarding deprenyl). Despite rigorous efforts by other researchers, the max life extension could not be achieved again. Instead what was gotten were mixed results of increased average life span, no increase of anything and DECREASE of lifespan. Furthermore, there has been serious question about the safety of deprenyl on humans based on PD studies.

also

For those capable of understanding, who do the research on deprenyl, and have an intricate insights into the aging process know deprenyl


regarding this aspect:

A recent editorial comment on the study from which the last post is
abstracted:

http://www.neurology...s/55/12/1785#29

"Laboratory studies suggest that selegiline has properties that
theoretically could confer neuroprotection; however, evidence for this
in clinical trials is unfortunately lacking. ... Prescribing
medications such as selegiline on faith, with little evidence-based
efficacy, IGNORES THE NEGATIVE SIDE EFFECTS OF THIS PRACTISE, including
unnecessary expense to the patient, and the potential of deleterious
drug interations. (ref. 14)." The comment seems especially relevant in
the present discussion.


Also, basing such long term intervention only on theoretical arguments without having actual clinical proof could be very unwise. Theories change, we should expect clinical results (if such are obtainable) rather than only theoretical arguments. Are you for example aware of the thread I started regarding the essential function of ROS and possibly already optimized anti-oxidant defense in mammals?

http://www.imminst.o...amp;#entry83355

In the next paper they created a Drosophila strain with high levels of antioxidants and a lower production of ROS. Interestingly, the animals actually live less than controls:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....mp;query_hl=112

This seems to support the idea that ROS are not just damaging compounds, but essential biological molecules used in a myriad of functions. On this subject, I have a paper on ROS that could be of interest to some of you:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....mp;query_hl=116

Lastly, here's another recent paper showing that antioxidant protection does not correlate with longevity in rodents, in line with many other results suggesting that antioxidant protection is already optimized in mammals:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....mp;query_hl=112


Aubrey confirmed the results regarding ROS production(on a PM to me asking to comment the results, I'm sure he won't mind me reproducing his reply):

Thing is, this is not news -- roles of ROS (and not just nitric oxide) in signalling have been kown for over a decade (check out Sue Goo Rhee in PubMed). I have cited this sort of work quite often in my papers as reasons for focusing on removal of accumulating but initially inert molecules and cells rather than removal or bioactive ones.


While this may not be news for Aubrey, it's certainly news for many people, for example Jaoa, me and I'm sure to plenty of other ImmInst members. I'm not sure if this conflicts with the theoretical argument for example of R-ALA, because I do not know the actual mechanism of R-ALA. From my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), based on these results, a substance that decreases ROS production also in bioactive cells (and not only in inert cells), rather than only making the oxidative stress by ROS production to other cells less harmful, might have a life decreasing effect. This would be caused by intefering with essential signalling systems. But again, I'm not sure whether R-ALA acts through such mechanism, but it might (does anyone have a better understanding of these issues?). But I do know that at least for ALA the conducted rodent longevity studies have not been positive [1] (and not in my understanding for R-ALA either)

[1]Lee CK, Pugh TD, Klopp RG, Edwards J, Allison DB, Weindruch R, Prolla TA. The impact of alpha-lipoic acid, coenzyme Q10 and caloric restriction on life span and gene expression patterns in mice.Free Radic Biol Med. 2004 Apr 15;36(8):1043-57.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....p;dopt=Citation

PS:Somebody please fix the bugs on this f***ing editor! [ang]


I'v read through the thread..phew.........
THe criticism from micheal agains Deprenyl is out dated (2005). The following study (2006) indicate that the life extending effect is dose dependant.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

It was also demonstrated that deprenyl stopped nigrostriatal degeneration. the nigrostriatal tract dies off (after 40) at a rate of 13% per year effectively killing you at 115 ~120 years old if you ever get that far. At that point your brain has less than 10% the original dopamine it had when below 40 years old.



A perfectly good supplement.

Edited by 100YearsToGo, 22 November 2008 - 02:31 AM.


#73 Heliotrope

  • Guest
  • 1,145 posts
  • 0 ₮

Posted 22 November 2008 - 11:04 AM

Mprize, mprize, mprize, and then some more mprize. Then some more mprize, a little more, and then when it starts to really hurt to give, a little more mprize after that.

It seems to me this question is like asking the people of the ww11 era whether they think that donating to and supporting the d day invasion, or taking supplements gives them more bang for their buck.

I mean, take supplements, ya sure, but focus in on the invasion.


I like your D-Day invasion analogy of WWII era. To take a strong-hold on this Death issue, one probably needs to do both, land on the beaches of Normandy by both air and sea.

donating to Mprize is a bit more altruistic, and spending on supplements for youself is a bit more selfish, but both potentially help you a lot in the end.

Analogy: spending on Mprize is like donating to one of the Allied nations in WWII & giving to the troops to fight a common enemy. spending on supplement is maybe you digging your own bomb-shelter, fortify your house, do things to defend against air strikes, putting up fences/barriers, digging escape tunnels for your home, your castle.

#74 brokenportal

  • Life Member, Moderator
  • 7,046 posts
  • 589 ₮
  • Location:Stevens Point, WI

Posted 22 November 2008 - 10:37 PM

Im a bit confused. If nobody took supplements, and sens becomes successful, then we will all have indefinently extended life spans. So why even emphasize supplements in conjunction with this cause? I would talk about them of course. I take them too and am getting more into them every day, but I dont understand the emphasis.

You say its like fortifing your house and preparing yourself and all that. Along those lines I would say that taking supplements is a lot like digging a 30 foot bomb shelter and getting it ready when you know that an atomic bomb is going to be dropped on your town. Forget the bomb shelter, dissable the nukes. We need all hands on deck for this and the pay off is going to be astronomical in comparison.

#75 RighteousReason

  • Guest
  • 2,491 posts
  • -103 ₮
  • Location:Atlanta, GA

Posted 23 November 2008 - 08:09 PM

Most bang for buck for achieving immortality

Singularity Institute

#76 DukeNukem

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 145 ₮
  • Location:Dallas, Texas

Posted 23 November 2008 - 08:32 PM

It's really simple: Taking supplements is a hedge against the fact that we don't know if or when SENS (or an alternative approach) will be successful.

Therefore, people are smart to spend money on supplements, too, rather than putting it ALL into the MPrize. And as Mind said, age plays a big factor in this. The older you are, the more you should spend on a supps program, because the less likely SENS will be ready in time, so you need to take matters into your own hands.

#77 eternaltraveler

  • Guest, Guardian
  • 6,471 posts
  • 155 ₮
  • Location:Silicon Valley, CA

Posted 23 November 2008 - 09:27 PM

Taking supplements is a hedge against the fact that we don't know if or when SENS (or an alternative approach) will be successful.


unfortunately we don't know if "supplements" do a damn bit of good.

#78 DukeNukem

  • Guest
  • 2,009 posts
  • 145 ₮
  • Location:Dallas, Texas

Posted 23 November 2008 - 11:57 PM

Taking supplements is a hedge against the fact that we don't know if or when SENS (or an alternative approach) will be successful.


unfortunately we don't know if "supplements" do a damn bit of good.

Where have you been??!! For someone who comes to this forum as much as you do, this is the most profoundly ignorant statement I've read here.

#79 brokenportal

  • Life Member, Moderator
  • 7,046 posts
  • 589 ₮
  • Location:Stevens Point, WI

Posted 24 November 2008 - 01:28 AM

If you mean by instead of living to say, 83 years old with frailty from 76 to 83, you instead take supplements and live until 92 with frailty from 89 to 92 then that is where supplements will do their bit of good.

Although, to continue an anlogy we have going around here, taking supplements is like building a 30 foot deep bomb shelter in your back yard. It might help you survive for an extra couple of years. But why would you want to put your emphasis on that when d day on aging is under way. Aubrey has laid out the plans and its here, we need all hands on deck for this. If you come out and the nukes are not dissabled and they are still dropping them, then your still going to get hit by that nuke. Your shelter was only stocked for a handful of extra years. Your screwed now. But if you help assemble the d day style invasion on aging then we can end this tyrants reign in one feld swoop and put an end to the terror for everybody, sooner, once and for all. So back yard bunker or Higgins boats, that is what the choice seems to be to me.

#80 eternaltraveler

  • Guest, Guardian
  • 6,471 posts
  • 155 ₮
  • Location:Silicon Valley, CA

Posted 24 November 2008 - 04:56 AM

Where have you been??!! For someone who comes to this forum as much as you do, this is the most profoundly ignorant statement I've read


I used to believe the opposite before coming to this board. In doing a lot of research I've decided that most supplements are just not worth it baring a specific abnormality. I take fish oil and vitamin D, you can make a case for a few others, but they aren't going to add much on average. There is just no rational basis too make one's self a pharmacopia. Aging is far too complicated to be tackled by such simple approaches. You are messing with metabolism. You're better off counting the atoms in the universe.

Fix the damage.

#81 eternaltraveler

  • Guest, Guardian
  • 6,471 posts
  • 155 ₮
  • Location:Silicon Valley, CA

Posted 24 November 2008 - 05:03 AM

If you want something with a chance of working right now do CR.

#82 suspire

  • Guest
  • 583 posts
  • 10 ₮

Posted 24 November 2008 - 06:32 PM

Supplements: I am skeptical of them--people think they are going to live 10 to 20 years longer on them and I think it is maybe more in the range of 3 to 5 years, if that. I haven't seen much in the way of clinical studies that show X supplements increases human life span by Y years. That said, my goal with supplements is not radical longevity; I hope to gain more quality years, which I suspect I will. I'd rather live a shorter life-span, but it be one that is enjoyable and worth living than a longer one in misery.

Mprize: I am even more skeptical of this. For the Methuselah Mouse Prize, well, I'd like to see at least 3 solid examples of prior competitions in any field that lead to eventual breakthroughs in science and technology that were applied to society (as opposed to a one-shot gimmicks/stunts/wonders). I can't think of any--most of it is driven by government or private grants.
As for the second part, I am even more skeptical. Stuff like the "300" are a bit gimmicky for a whole slew of reasons. Now grants for SENS research is more along the lines of what mainstream academia uses, and if it follows all the proper protocals and benchmarks, then maybe it has more legitimacy. I know a number of members on these boards are involved (yes, Elrond, I saw you listed), but that doesn't convince me that the research or the direction follows all the appropriate standards, or that it is even investigating in the right direction.


My thoughts: Innovation comes from a number of sources, but a large percentage is based in either the government or corporate sectors with grants offered from either of those sectors. You'll also see advancements arise, by accident, from the military industrial sector (while researching or developing something else entirely) or other related fields, like NASA.

I think we should expect a "cure to aging" from one of those sources--especially if big money can be made off of it and there is real science to back it up. I think stuff like the Mprize makes people feel good about themselves, but until something substantial comes out of it, I'll remain skeptical. There is too much self-serving agendas in fields such as this--"money for grants", which translates to "money for my salary and lifestyle" reigns supreme in this area, in some cases moreso than actual research (oh, enough "papers" will be published to rationalize continued money pouring in, but actual progress is far from assured, at best). I've had more than my share of involvement with the scientific community and research institutions to see a lot of the downsides involved in things like this. That said, it is the way the world works--other fields are just as self-serving, so I am not knocking the researchers: They are more than needed, they are essential. But eh, the Mprize--it doesn't fit my criteria for funding. I am sure, if it meets all the necessary standards, there is plenty of grant money it can acquire through other sources.

So that's why I am going with supplements for now. Eventually, I'll have to pay up in big cash, anyway, if a "cure" to aging is found. You can expect it to cost a hell of a lot, regardless of whether the Mprize helps uncover the cure or not. In some ways, one might argue the best choice is: Save your money and invest it wisely to grow it. You'll need that money to buy the cure down the road, anyway.

Edited by suspire, 24 November 2008 - 07:02 PM.


#83 suspire

  • Guest
  • 583 posts
  • 10 ₮

Posted 24 November 2008 - 06:57 PM

Yeah, LM's argument that he could win the MPrize was one comment that set off my "WTF sense". I don't remember which way I voted back then, but I'd be confident on my vote now.


What is your vote now, out of curiosity?

#84 brokenportal

  • Life Member, Moderator
  • 7,046 posts
  • 589 ₮
  • Location:Stevens Point, WI

Posted 24 November 2008 - 08:01 PM

Supplements: I am skeptical of them--people think they are going to live 10 to 20 years longer on them and I think it is maybe more in the range of 3 to 5 years, if that. I haven't seen much in the way of clinical studies that show X supplements increases human life span by Y years. That said, my goal with supplements is not radical longevity; I hope to gain more quality years, which I suspect I will. I'd rather live a shorter life-span, but it be one that is enjoyable and worth living than a longer one in misery.


This notion seems prevailent, and also short sighted. I could be wrong, Im just saying. I would much rather take the chance of living for 50 years in misery if I could hold out until Longevity Escape Velocity than to obliterate for eternity. Now maybe I would change my mind when the pain became to great, but it seems to me that a lot of people would have arthritis, parkinsons and and only enough money to shop at a discount food store so they would rather off themselves. There are kids in other countries that live their entire lives in more pain than is the threshold that I get the feeling a lot of people in the life extension discussions indicate they would rather off themselves before they ever even get to the point of. Im sure its not exactly like that, but that is the precedent that notions like that seem to be setting and I think its dangerous.

Mprize: I am even more skeptical of this. For the Methuselah Mouse Prize, well, I'd like to see at least 3 solid examples of prior competitions in any field that lead to eventual breakthroughs in science and technology that were applied to society (as opposed to a one-shot gimmicks/stunts/wonders). I can't think of any--most of it is driven by government or private grants.
As for the second part, I am even more skeptical. Stuff like the "300" are a bit gimmicky for a whole slew of reasons. Now grants for SENS research is more along the lines of what mainstream academia uses, and if it follows all the proper protocals and benchmarks, then maybe it has more legitimacy. I know a number of members on these boards are involved (yes, Elrond, I saw you listed), but that doesn't convince me that the research or the direction follows all the appropriate standards, or that it is even investigating in the right direction.


I could be wrong, I just hear the reports, but wasnt the x prize successful on a bunch of different levels? Even if it wasnt successful before, it doesnt mean it cant be now. If a scientist works with gerontology or bio engineering or something along those lines, then how isnt enticing them to make longevity breakthroughs in mice with millions of dollars as a prize a good idea? You say they would be better off writing more grants, ok, good idea, but what is going to get them to want to write grant proposals for longevity research more, a happenstance desire to take that direction in the face of a variety of possible directions to take in the research field, or a multi million dollar prize dangling the end of that life sustaining option?

Not to mention the prize garners media exposure which plants the seeds of biogerontology engineering in the minds of millions if not billions of people. If even just 1% of 1% of those seeds sprout, that is still a huge pay off. Besides that it will also plant the seeds in philanthropic people and organizations minds that will yeild further grants and funding.


My thoughts: Innovation comes from a number of sources, but a large percentage is based in either the government or corporate sectors with grants offered from either of those sectors. You'll also see advancements arise, by accident, from the military industrial sector (while researching or developing something else entirely) or other related fields, like NASA.


That reminds me of the quote, "Innovation occurs for many reasons, including greed, ambition, conviction, happenstance, acts of nature, mistakes, and desperation. But one force above all seems to facilitate the process. The easier it is to communicate, the faster change happens." James Burke, Connections

Imminst can and will embody more and more of the government and corporate sector. Lets keep the communication flowing.

I think we should expect a "cure to aging" from one of those sources--especially if big money can be made off of it and there is real science to back it up. I think stuff like the Mprize makes people feel good about themselves, but until something substantial comes out of it, I'll remain skeptical. There is too much self-serving agendas in fields such as this--"money for grants", which translates to "money for my salary and lifestyle" reigns supreme in this area, in some cases moreso than actual research (oh, enough "papers" will be published to rationalize continued money pouring in, but actual progress is far from assured, at best). I've had more than my share of involvement with the scientific community and research institutions to see a lot of the downsides involved in things like this. That said, it is the way the world works--other fields are just as self-serving, so I am not knocking the researchers: They are more than needed, they are essential. But eh, the Mprize--it doesn't fit my criteria for funding. I am sure, if it meets all the necessary standards, there is plenty of grant money it can acquire through other sources.


This is an underestimation of the world. Ive seen the world free slaves, Ive seen the world band together for d day, Ive seen the united states elect a black president, Ive seen ghandi stage sit ins to free india, I saw a man go to the moon, democracy flourish and tyranny crumble. That, is the way the world works. I understand where your pessimism can come from but it is only as big of a drag as your attachment to it is. Also, this money pocketing greed that you talk about is to be expected in life times with horrific looming time scales. Youll see people in concentration camps do desperate things against each other to survive in them. But give them a plan, a hope of escape and they will band together and use that drive to live as well as they can to produce extrodinary results. In short, life extension researchers dont want some measly couple bank accounts and houses. I mean really, look at the classic example of Aubreys clothes and tell me that this cause will tend for researchers to pocket their grant money.

So that's why I am going with supplements for now. Eventually, I'll have to pay up in big cash, anyway, if a "cure" to aging is found. You can expect it to cost a hell of a lot, regardless of whether the Mprize helps uncover the cure or not. In some ways, one might argue the best choice is: Save your money and invest it wisely to grow it. You'll need that money to buy the cure down the road, anyway.


Thats like saying, dont invest in d day, invest in rebuilding our economy after d day becomes successful. Well d day isnt going to be successful if we dont invest in it now.

#85 Shepard

  • Member, Director, Moderator
  • 6,360 posts
  • 932 ₮
  • Location:Auburn, AL

Posted 24 November 2008 - 08:29 PM

What is your vote now, out of curiosity?


I'm much less enthusiastic about supplements and maximal longevity than I used to be. I still take some for various reasons, but I've cut back drastically in the past couple of years. It's not necessarily due to the anti-supplement scares that some people are hip to, but just because when I actually began studying biology instead of just supplements I was humbled by the complexity of metabolism. I agree with what elrond said "Aging is far too complicated to be tackled by such simple approaches."

I'm not sure if SENS will lead to the ultimate goal, but I think the MPrize is great for many reasons, awareness not the least of them.

#86 sthira

  • Guest
  • 2,008 posts
  • 406 ₮

Posted 24 November 2008 - 08:51 PM

If you want something with a chance of working right now do CR.


Agreed. Supplement consumers are at the mercy of a food chain with little accountability and labels that are not policed for accuracy.

#87 suspire

  • Guest
  • 583 posts
  • 10 ₮

Posted 24 November 2008 - 08:59 PM

Supplements: I am skeptical of them--people think they are going to live 10 to 20 years longer on them and I think it is maybe more in the range of 3 to 5 years, if that. I haven't seen much in the way of clinical studies that show X supplements increases human life span by Y years. That said, my goal with supplements is not radical longevity; I hope to gain more quality years, which I suspect I will. I'd rather live a shorter life-span, but it be one that is enjoyable and worth living than a longer one in misery.


This notion seems prevailent, and also short sighted. I could be wrong, Im just saying. I would much rather take the chance of living for 50 years in misery if I could hold out until Longevity Escape Velocity than to obliterate for eternity. Now maybe I would change my mind when the pain became to great, but it seems to me that a lot of people would have arthritis, parkinsons and and only enough money to shop at a discount food store so they would rather off themselves. There are kids in other countries that live their entire lives in more pain than is the threshold that I get the feeling a lot of people in the life extension discussions indicate they would rather off themselves before they ever even get to the point of. Im sure its not exactly like that, but that is the precedent that notions like that seem to be setting and I think its dangerous.

Mprize: I am even more skeptical of this. For the Methuselah Mouse Prize, well, I'd like to see at least 3 solid examples of prior competitions in any field that lead to eventual breakthroughs in science and technology that were applied to society (as opposed to a one-shot gimmicks/stunts/wonders). I can't think of any--most of it is driven by government or private grants.
As for the second part, I am even more skeptical. Stuff like the "300" are a bit gimmicky for a whole slew of reasons. Now grants for SENS research is more along the lines of what mainstream academia uses, and if it follows all the proper protocals and benchmarks, then maybe it has more legitimacy. I know a number of members on these boards are involved (yes, Elrond, I saw you listed), but that doesn't convince me that the research or the direction follows all the appropriate standards, or that it is even investigating in the right direction.


I could be wrong, I just hear the reports, but wasnt the x prize successful on a bunch of different levels? Even if it wasnt successful before, it doesnt mean it cant be now. If a scientist works with gerontology or bio engineering or something along those lines, then how isnt enticing them to make longevity breakthroughs in mice with millions of dollars as a prize a good idea? You say they would be better off writing more grants, ok, good idea, but what is going to get them to want to write grant proposals for longevity research more, a happenstance desire to take that direction in the face of a variety of possible directions to take in the research field, or a multi million dollar prize dangling the end of that life sustaining option?

Not to mention the prize garners media exposure which plants the seeds of biogerontology engineering in the minds of millions if not billions of people. If even just 1% of 1% of those seeds sprout, that is still a huge pay off. Besides that it will also plant the seeds in philanthropic people and organizations minds that will yeild further grants and funding.


My thoughts: Innovation comes from a number of sources, but a large percentage is based in either the government or corporate sectors with grants offered from either of those sectors. You'll also see advancements arise, by accident, from the military industrial sector (while researching or developing something else entirely) or other related fields, like NASA.


That reminds me of the quote, "Innovation occurs for many reasons, including greed, ambition, conviction, happenstance, acts of nature, mistakes, and desperation. But one force above all seems to facilitate the process. The easier it is to communicate, the faster change happens." James Burke, Connections

Imminst can and will embody more and more of the government and corporate sector. Lets keep the communication flowing.

I think we should expect a "cure to aging" from one of those sources--especially if big money can be made off of it and there is real science to back it up. I think stuff like the Mprize makes people feel good about themselves, but until something substantial comes out of it, I'll remain skeptical. There is too much self-serving agendas in fields such as this--"money for grants", which translates to "money for my salary and lifestyle" reigns supreme in this area, in some cases moreso than actual research (oh, enough "papers" will be published to rationalize continued money pouring in, but actual progress is far from assured, at best). I've had more than my share of involvement with the scientific community and research institutions to see a lot of the downsides involved in things like this. That said, it is the way the world works--other fields are just as self-serving, so I am not knocking the researchers: They are more than needed, they are essential. But eh, the Mprize--it doesn't fit my criteria for funding. I am sure, if it meets all the necessary standards, there is plenty of grant money it can acquire through other sources.


This is an underestimation of the world. Ive seen the world free slaves, Ive seen the world band together for d day, Ive seen the united states elect a black president, Ive seen ghandi stage sit ins to free india, I saw a man go to the moon, democracy flourish and tyranny crumble. That, is the way the world works. I understand where your pessimism can come from but it is only as big of a drag as your attachment to it is. Also, this money pocketing greed that you talk about is to be expected in life times with horrific looming time scales. Youll see people in concentration camps do desperate things against each other to survive in them. But give them a plan, a hope of escape and they will band together and use that drive to live as well as they can to produce extrodinary results. In short, life extension researchers dont want some measly couple bank accounts and houses. I mean really, look at the classic example of Aubreys clothes and tell me that this cause will tend for researchers to pocket their grant money.

So that's why I am going with supplements for now. Eventually, I'll have to pay up in big cash, anyway, if a "cure" to aging is found. You can expect it to cost a hell of a lot, regardless of whether the Mprize helps uncover the cure or not. In some ways, one might argue the best choice is: Save your money and invest it wisely to grow it. You'll need that money to buy the cure down the road, anyway.


Thats like saying, dont invest in d day, invest in rebuilding our economy after d day becomes successful. Well d day isnt going to be successful if we dont invest in it now.



1) Live 50 years in misery, then let me know if you still think you'd rather live like that. Some people do it, some people don't. Obviously, across the world, people live in utter deprivation and continue to survive and continue to have the will to live. In truth, I do too--all I said was that I'd rather have a shorter lifespan that was of quality than a longer one that was of misery, but I am in no hurry to die. On the other hand, I also have no fear of death and don't mind the concept. This is a philosophical position and nothing more; I definitely fear pain and I fear many of the illness and frailties associated with old age, but not death in it of itself or "oblivion" (I am an atheist). And to answer the question, before it is asked: Why am I here? Because I find the topic(s) fascinating, figure I can learn somethings and perhaps enjoy a healthy lifestyle all in all. Moreover, if given the choice, I'd prefer to have the option to live an extended lifespan and choose the time of my own death, not have it chosen for me.

2) If a scientist "cured aging" or discovered something along those lines, um, anything the Mprize could offer said scientist/scientists would be minuscule in comparison to the riches and fame they'd get from a gazillion sources. As for motivation: A scientist is going to be motivated towards the field of anti-aging out of their own curiosity and interest, or they won't be--the possibility of some money via the Mprize is dwarfed by the sort of money they could make much more reliably in other fields. Finally, a scientist who had a real legitimate basis for a grant towards a cure to aging wouldn't need the Mprize--there are so many firms and government grants that'd line up for them in a second.

3) I've seen some press for the Mprize and it doesn't exactly stir me. I think if we want to get publicity for our efforts, we need to hire A) A good PR firm. B) Target specific groups/scientists/etc in different fields for very specified grants. The combination of good PR with intelligent placement of grants is better than the Mprize, which to me, is only marginally better than a publicity stunt. But PR, lobbying, celebrity spokesmen, etc--would all pay better dividends, in the field of communication, than the Mprize. So would solid grants to a diverse set of scientists in varying fields working towards (via different methods and ideas) the goal of "curing aging".

4) You're an optimist on a scale that is heart-warming, on one hand, but not justified on another. It would be an understatement to say I do not share your optimism, especially in human nature. I'll leave it at that.

5) I dislike the D-Day analogy. I dislike most analogies, because they oversimplify the argument, while attempting to lend it legitimacy, but I find the D-Day analogy especially trite. Sorry, it just doesn't work for me. That doesn't say you can't buy into the D-Day analogy and send your money to the Mprize, but short of hard, verifiable results, I am not buying this.

Edited by suspire, 24 November 2008 - 09:17 PM.


#88 suspire

  • Guest
  • 583 posts
  • 10 ₮

Posted 24 November 2008 - 09:07 PM

What is your vote now, out of curiosity?


I'm much less enthusiastic about supplements and maximal longevity than I used to be. I still take some for various reasons, but I've cut back drastically in the past couple of years. It's not necessarily due to the anti-supplement scares that some people are hip to, but just because when I actually began studying biology instead of just supplements I was humbled by the complexity of metabolism. I agree with what elrond said "Aging is far too complicated to be tackled by such simple approaches."

I'm not sure if SENS will lead to the ultimate goal, but I think the MPrize is great for many reasons, awareness not the least of them.


I agree with you on the lack of enthusiasm for supplements and increased/max longevity. I've also cut back and I also focus on very specific ones--mostly stuff that has a number of studies behind it and/or whole food supplements (like pomegranate, blueberries, cocoa, tumeric, etc). I agree that aging is complicated; I disagree that it is "too complicate" for such "simple approaches". I don't think the complexity of chemical reactions involved with certain foods (that have dozens of chemical reactions occuring when ingested) are simple or easily understood. I think, also, if we can see the effects of poorly chosen foods or drugs (tobacco included) on shortening the human lifespan, the opposite is probably true. That isn't to say supplements are a panacea, but I think the right ones (and the question is--which are the right ones?) can help lead to a more healthy, longer life (as opposed to an average diet/regimen that was absent of these things). That said, are supplements going to lead to eternal life: No chance. Are they going to lead to life beyond max human lifespans: Well, max human lifespans do seem to be increasing with each generation, but once again, I think the answer is generally "no".

I'd be interested in seeing your current supp regiment if you're willing to share it or post it. I am trying to trim down my regimen to the things I think are most useful and I'd like to compare it with someone who is A) Knowledgeable. B) Has a similar healthy skepticism of the usefulness of supplements.

As for the Mprize, while I do agree that has helped increase public awareness, I think if that is our goal, we can probably achieve it better with other techniques and strategies.

Edited by suspire, 24 November 2008 - 09:14 PM.


#89 Shepard

  • Member, Director, Moderator
  • 6,360 posts
  • 932 ₮
  • Location:Auburn, AL

Posted 24 November 2008 - 09:24 PM

I'd be interested in seeing your current supp regiment if you're willing to share it or post it. I am trying to trim down my regimen to the things I think are most useful and I'd like to compare it with someone who is A) Knowledgeable. B) Has a similar healthy skepticism of the usefulness of supplements.


The latest incarnation of my regimen is posted here: http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=278829

I haven't posted dosages there, but they are all fairly moderate.


As for the Mprize, while I do agree that has helped increase public awareness, I think if that is our goal, we can probably achieve it better with other techniques and strategies.


Many things about the MFoundation and the MPrize/300 can probably be argued one way or the other. I don't pretend to know enough about marketing to say much on the matter. One reason that I argue for the MFoundation is because so many people do a lot of talking (myself included at times) and never accomplish anything. Aubrey/Gobel and others took action, and I have tremendous respect for that.

Edited by shepard, 24 November 2008 - 09:30 PM.


sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#90 suspire

  • Guest
  • 583 posts
  • 10 ₮

Posted 24 November 2008 - 10:06 PM

I'd be interested in seeing your current supp regiment if you're willing to share it or post it. I am trying to trim down my regimen to the things I think are most useful and I'd like to compare it with someone who is A) Knowledgeable. B) Has a similar healthy skepticism of the usefulness of supplements.


The latest incarnation of my regimen is posted here: http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=278829

I haven't posted dosages there, but they are all fairly moderate.


As for the Mprize, while I do agree that has helped increase public awareness, I think if that is our goal, we can probably achieve it better with other techniques and strategies.


Many things about the MFoundation and the MPrize/300 can probably be argued one way or the other. I don't pretend to know enough about marketing to say much on the matter. One reason that I argue for the MFoundation is because so many people do a lot of talking (myself included at times) and never accomplish anything. Aubrey/Gobel and others took action, and I have tremendous respect for that.



1) Thanks for posting the supp regimen. Not too far off than my own--a few things I don't take, a few things I take that you don't, but all in all, in the same ballpark.

2) And fair enough about Aubrey/Gobel's effort/action. I can respect that, too, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users