41 replies to this topic

[turbo]

Just finished a bottle of neurostim, wanted to try something else.

what are your favorite premade mixes for general, improved cognitive performance?

[turbo]

How did you like neurostim? Personally it gave me nausea and anxiety...not a good product for me.

I belive ready made mixed nootropic products are not potent enough and often do not contain best ratio.
If you're into it, you can buy powders, mix it and cap it yourself. It's cheapest and best method.

i believe it did something, but it's really hard to tell where placebo effect wears off and realness begins. you say often they do not contain the best ratios. doesn't lifemirage, the local guru, have a blend out that he helped design or something? i mean i really don't know nearly enough to start picking and choosing nootropics to mix up, nor do i have the time. i thought neurostim was good, but want to try another, hopefully one containing the quintessential nootropic, piracetam. once i'm convinced the effects are significatn beyond placebo, i will look into learning more and making my own based on my particular preferences. i guess at this point i am looking for somehting that's not particularly cost effective (though preferably it woudl be), but that can definitely show a difference. the neurostim had caffeine, so it's hard to distinguish if i just had a caffeine buzz (they had 125mg / serv., and i'm rather sensitive to caffeine, so it's hard to take htat and say 'ya, it's the nootropics in addition to the caffeine'.

i read something that i found in another thread here, by uc berkely, that seemed to be quite cynical of nootropics in general, and nobody seems to be defending them. i am hoping to god that i can find something to give me enhacned cognitive performance, but people insisting they work because 'i felt a difference', or 'they helped people with alzheimers' really don't count in my book

[turbo]

da sense, did you ever talk about neurostim on this site? i am remembering that a post of yours about it was one of the ones that made me choose it; maybe i'm confusing you w/ someone else?

btw, do you post on other non-nootropic boards, maybe saltwater predator fish, powerlifting/bodybuilding, or drugs (recreational)? your sig looks real familiar.

[turbo]

http://www.imminst.o...f=169&t=8382&s=

this is the thread with the link to university of california berkely. pretty respected school as far as i know, adn they seem to be saying that nootropics are a waste. that thread has been around for days (overa week maybe?), and nobody has given a solid rebuttal. really worries me that hte regulars can't come in and lay teh smack down, so to speak.

[rfarris]

Turbo,

I don't think you're going to find a decent pre-made mind enhancer that includes 'racetams. Probably the best reason is because the amount people use of, say, piracetam can run from 800mg/day up to 4- or 5-grams/day, or even more.

On the other hand, the usual companions like vinpocetine, huperzine-A, A-GPC and/or CDP-choline, et al, are used in more standardized amounts. Two products that are generally considered top-notch are AOR Ortho-Mind and SmartNutrition GetSmart.

If I were you, I'd pick one of those two and then add my own 'racetams. Piracetam is as good as any to start with.

In particular, I take six capsules of Ortho-Mind (R-ALA, hup-A, vinpocetine, bacopa monniera, ginkgo biloba, CDP-choline, ALCAR, L-pyroglutamic acid, pantothenic acid) and 150 mg additional R-ALA as soon as I wake up. Then about 3g of piracetam before breakfast, 750mg of aniracetam with breakfast, 800mg of oxiracetam mid morning, and another 1.6g of piracetam in mid-afternoon.

As you can see, it wouldn't really be possible to make a product that meets my requirements and also yours if it includes the 'racetams.

[purerealm]

If they don't include piracetam, would additional choline supplementation be necessary if piracetam is added to the stack?

[turbo]

nah not avant, was thinking bluelight.ru, wannabebig.com, others...

[turbo]

did anyone click the link to that thread in this forum? i'm dumbfounded that nobody here can post a decent counter to it. really making me think twice about my next nootropic order..

[turbo]

[quote]Turbo,



In particular, I take six capsules of Ortho-Mind (R-ALA, hup-A, vinpocetine, bacopa monniera, ginkgo biloba, CDP-choline, ALCAR, L-pyroglutamic acid, pantothenic acid) and 150 mg additional R-ALA as soon as I wake up. Then about 3g of piracetam before breakfast, 750mg of aniracetam with breakfast, 800mg of oxiracetam mid morning, and another 1.6g of piracetam in mid-afternoon.

QUOTE]

would you say it (orthomind) would be effective at 3 pills daily? definitely can't afford something that's 50$ every month (well, replace 'can't afford' with 'would rather not'), if it lasted 2 months i'd prolly give it a shot.

have you ever taken the ortho mind alone? i know you'll get more out of these things by mixing/matching, but because of my lifestyle it's really only practical for me to get a pre-made formula that i can just keep the bottle handy for a couple/few daily dosings.

[purerealm]

interesting how the guys at bluelight are using advanced piracetam forms to potentiate their ecstasy trips. that's a fine discovery for neurochemistry, it seems that nootropics like piracetam can make our brains more aware on a molecular level

[rfarris]

would you say it (orthomind) would be effective at 3 pills daily?

AOR says it will probably be ok. Here's what they say:

The nutrients in Ortho•Mind potentiate one another to create an “inverted ‘U’ response pattern. The optimal dosage is highly variable from one individual to the next. Begin with one capsule daily on an empty stomach, and increase to personal optimal level. For most people, peak results will be achieved at two to four capsules daily.

[turbo]

nah not avant, was thinking bluelight.ru, wannabebig.com, others...

did post some on bluelight.nu but nothing about neurostim

oh i meant that's where i saw that avatar...

[turbo]

why is nobody bothered that not a single person on these boards will respond to the nootropic bashing by UC Berekely, posted on these boards, that i linked in this thread?

kind of scaring the hell out of me that nobody can offer a valid retort. If this was a forum on creatine monohydrate and a link like that was posted, it woudl be easily dismissed. creatine works, though, so it's an easy retort. why the hell isn't anybody addressing that link? doesn't that scare you guys?

[rfarris]

why is nobody bothered that not a single person on these boards will respond to the nootropic bashing by UC Berekely, posted on these boards, that i linked in this thread?

Do the people here work for you? Have you even sent a little money to become a full member? Aren't you being just a little bit pushy? Why don't you respond to UC Berkeley?

[exigentsky]

You should also check out Xtend-Life's Neuro-Natural Memory. http://xtend-life.co...duct=nl&page=n4

[kevink]

why is nobody bothered that not a single person on these boards will respond to the nootropic bashing by UC Berekely, posted on these boards, that i linked in this thread? 

kind of scaring the hell out of me that nobody can offer a valid retort.  If this was a forum on creatine monohydrate and a link like that was posted, it woudl be easily dismissed.  creatine works, though, so it's an easy retort.  why the hell isn't anybody addressing that link?  doesn't that scare you guys?

I'm new around here and certainly no expert. However, I personally couldn't care less what that pathetic newsletter says. Did you bother to read through the 2005 articles? They do nothing but rehash common stuff and give you the same party line, like going to a bad doctor.

Here's the deal -

1) You can walk into most doctors' offices and they'll tell you that vaccines with thimerosal are fine for children.

2) It was a "nobody" ophthalmologist that discovered Vitamin A could cure "night blindness". It was that same ophthalmologist that crunched his own data and discovered that not only did a .02 cent vitamin A cure night blindness, it also cut 3rd World childhood mortality rates by like 40%. What happened when he published his findings? He was attacked from all sides by the "expert" medical establishment. Fast forward several years and he's being hailed as a hero and millions of children are saved from horrible suffering...NO THANKS to the medical establishment.

3) The FDA pours NutraSweet and any number of bad science compounds down children’s throats on a daily basis - while attacking anything that threatens the drug companies. Doctors are not marching in the streets to have these toxic sweetners pulled - where are they?

4) This newsletter, and all typical things like it, talk about "maybe" fish oil is good for your heart, but they don't even stay on top of the amazing results from studies coming out of Europe and cognition. When the establishment finally gets around to mentioning it in a year or two, it will go on the evening news and everyone will run out and buy the WRONG fish oil armed with just enough information to be dangerous. Why on Earth would anyone care about some "newsletter" with unsigned articles that amount to little more than the kind of health coverage people get on the evening news?

Everyone is free to do the research, look at the studies, review the expert analysis, and try things out. If you want to wait for the evening news to proclaim that taking a decent multi is a good idea, go ahead. I've never even seen an MD recommend a decent multi-vitamin! (I know there are some MD's really on top of things and awesome to deal with)

Yes, there's a lot of junk science and people mis-reading study data and starting urban rumors. Yes, we need MDs that take a more active role in life extension and life expansion (maximum life performance). No, people should not treat themselves like lab rats and down any new substance that comes along. On one side you've got the ultraconservative, pessimistic (and often paid off by big biz) medical establishment. On the other you've got junk science. The trick is finding the middle ground - and that is not going to be easy for some things.

[oilfieldpilot]

why is nobody bothered that not a single person on these boards will respond to the nootropic bashing by UC Berekely, posted on these boards, that i linked in this thread? 

kind of scaring the hell out of me that nobody can offer a valid retort.  If this was a forum on creatine monohydrate and a link like that was posted, it woudl be easily dismissed.  creatine works, though, so it's an easy retort.  why the hell isn't anybody addressing that link?  doesn't that scare you guys?

MY response to you:
Why stoop to their level and waste our time?
We're not a bunch of bozo's here looking for that magic pill to make our brains grow out of our ears. Everyone has their own unique/personal goal.

I think that Each person on this forum has, or is in the process of fine-tuning a 'stack' that works for him/her own self. That is a main goal.
Okay, so what may work for you doesn't seem to do squat for me...Good for you, I'll move on; and vice versa.

That is more the purpose of most of these posts. We tell what has and has not worked, what the 'effects' have been and the correlating dosages, etc.

If you want to get into locking horns with the 'Berkley-ites' then go ahead. It's a waste of my time...just as the post here (now sh'canned) about drinking your own pee [ang]

I Know what works for me, and I could give a rat's a$$ if someone else wants to claim otherwise for ME!
[lol]

ofp

ps: if it Scares the Hell out of you, then tuck tail and RUN...don't look back. No one here will chase you down and try to convince you otherwise

[turbo]

it worried me because i read through a ton of stuff on this site, and 90% of things relating to nootropics being useful in healhty adults are personal experiences. it seems like we're presented with a ton of studies (in a board that is primarily discussing nootropics for life expansion) that address nootropics use in people with declining cognitive ability.

i know that when a sports product really works, they will do a study and show that people taking product x did better on a bench press than placebo groups. respectable ones are done by third party and double blind, placebo, etc. However, i haven't seen one nootropic company doing something like that, and if they really are boosting brain power to a noticeable level in healthy adults, wouldn't that be huge to your marketing campaign to show that it actually does work???

[turbo]

and don't even get me started on the sweetener comment. if someone can prove that art sweeteners are dangerous, why don't you go get yoruself a lawyer and sue the fda? or companies that are poisoning you, if it is so obvious you are right?

[kevink]

and don't even get me started on the sweetener comment.  if someone can prove that art sweeteners are dangerous, why don't you go get yoruself a lawyer and sue the fda? or companies that are poisoning you, if it is so obvious you are right?

Yeah, great point! Maybe I'll get my life savings together and find some very brave people to not only take on Monsanto Corporation, but we can go after Rumsfeld too! Who cares that the FDA has been paid off by Monsanto. Who cares that Monsanto is almost as politically connected as Halliburton. Who cares that Monsanto sues the hell out of any media outlet or company that dares to criticize their Recombinant Bovine Serum (rBST, rBGH) our government is quietly letting poison our milk. [sick]

Oh darn...somebody already beat me to it...

Wednesday, September 15th 2004, in San Francisco, a $350 million dollar plus class action racketeering lawsuit was filed in United States Federal District Court, court case # C 04 3872, against the NutraSweet Corporation, Monsanto Corporation, American Diabetes Association, Dr. Robert H. Moser and some fifty other defendants to be named later. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is mentioned throughout in the lawsuit.

Rumsfeld was once the CEO and President of G.D. Searle Company which got aspartame approved by the FDA in the 1982. Before taking the CEO position at G.D. Searle, Rumsfeld was Chief of Staff for President Gerald Ford. The question is, did Rumsfeld use his Washington connections to get FDA approval for aspartame when it should not have been approved?

Oh darn -- these guys beat me to it as well...

Nutrasweet and Brain Tumors: Class Action Suit Ready To Launch

Since then, the FDA has received thousands of complaints and has amassed a list of no less than 92 symptoms of aspartame poisoning. This list includes neurological problems, seizures, vision loss, blindness, headaches, cardiovascular problems, and death.

Of all the consumer complaints filed with the FDA each year, a whopping eighty percent of those complaints have to do with adverse reactions to Nutrasweet-related products. Eighty percent!
http://www.buzzle.co...-2005-69466.asp

And to sum it all up (thanks to Mercola)...

http://www.mercola.c...den_dangers.htm

How aspartame was approved is a lesson in how chemical and pharmaceutical companies can manipulate government agencies such as the FDA, "bribe" organizations such as the American Dietetic Association, and flood the scientific community with flawed and fraudulent industry-sponsored studies funded by the makers of aspartame.

Erik Millstone, a researcher at the Science Policy Research Unit of Sussex University has compiled thousands of pages of evidence, some of which have been obtained using the freedom of information act 23, showing: 1. Laboratory tests were faked and dangers were concealed. 2. Tumors were removed from animals and animals that had died were "restored to life" in laboratory records. 3. False and misleading statements were made to the FDA. 4. The two US Attorneys given the task of bringing fraud charges against the aspartame manufacturer took positions with the manufacturer's law firm, letting the statute of limitations run out. 5. The Commissioner of the FDA overruled the objections of the FDA's own scientific board of inquiry. Shortly after that decision, he took a position with Burson-Marsteller, the firm in charge of public relations for G.D. Searle.

Many people could have told you this, but my guess is they're not going to waste their time doing the digging YOU should be doing for yourself. The only reason I did it was because I want to help educate the 100's of people that will eventually read this thread and perhaps save a kid or two from parents giving them "healthy" diet sodas. [thumb]

Edited by kevink, 16 November 2005 - 09:40 PM.

[kevink]

Grrrr - Why don't the quotes work?

I know that when a sports product really works, they will do a study and show that people taking product x did better on a bench press than placebo groups.

I forgot to say that I agree with the call for legitimate studies. Even so-so ones would be a good start. My interest is not so much nootropics, but "Life Enhancement" and "Extension" so this thread is "not my issue".

However, perhaps other members are expert in any studies being done? I don't know if there are or are not studies underway or already completed - and I don't want to sit here and make a blanket statement without doing my homework. [wis]

[oilfieldpilot]

turbo,

check the 'research' for galantamine (also aricept as Rx name)
I was guinea pig for researcher, (but for one of the harmless side effects).
maybe this is an example you're looking for?

also try http://nootropics.ip...hp?showforum=30

is this the kind of 'research and trials' you are looking for? The admin for that link / website provides references as well.
I used his site to research some of the noo's I currently take.

hope this helps ...some.

good luck.
ofp

[turbo]

oilfieldpilot, i will look into that link, but don't have time to poke around their boards. i actually appreciate a nootropic forum, people laugh their asses off when they see i'm reading a page titled 'for infinite lifespans' haha.

kevink, the first link i clicked on for your 'proof' started throwing popup ads at me. i tend to shy away from getting data from sites of that nature. nobody can ever prove to you that there is no giant conspiracy. believe what you will. but bottom line is that if the proof was there, IT WOULD BE PROVEN IN COURT. cash rules everything. dollar dollar bill ya'll. seriously tho, lawyers want to make money. if this was all provable in court, some lawyer would have made it work by now. again, i cannot prove there is no giant republican, corporate america, yadda yadda conspiracy. no one can prove that to you.

i see one of the things you listed was that artificial sweeteners had a list of symptoms. i seem to remember reading something lately which said that of people who have 'reactions' to aspartame, these reactions are not provable in a lab. they are all in teh people's heads. and you going around saying it is doing this probably makes even more people think they are 'sensitive to aspartame'

[kevink]

Turbo: i will look into that link, but don't have time to poke around their boards. i actually appreciate a nootropic forum, people laugh their asses off when they see i'm reading a page titled 'for infinite lifespans' haha.

Boy, that says a lot. maybe you should start a thread that says "looking for other people to do my work for me". [sfty]

As for that last "response" you made to me...

Your basis for truth is lawsuit? What?

Maybe it's just that you've been trained to see any criticism of the government or big business as some crazy conspiracy theory? You'll get over that if you read enough.

Does it somehow shock you that drugs are super huge biz? Perhaps you were unaware that at least 10 on the FDA advisory panel have close ties to drug companies? It's been in mainstream newspapers and Bloomberg and many people are calling for an overhaul of the FDA, so I don't know how you missed that one? You do know that it costs about a half a billion dollars to get a drug approved, don't you? Do you really think big pharms are spending $500 Million and aren't going to do everything in their power to get it approved?

And don't smokescreen this by making it a Republican attack. Washington as a whole is corrupt beyond belief - if we can't agree there, there's not much for us to talk about.

I showed you that 80% of consumer complaints to the FDA are about NutraSweet products, and you said it's all in their head.

I provide you fact; you provide me opinion...worse yet, opinion that you "read somewhere".

You make an uninformed remark about lawsuits; I show you two major ones. (the pop up was on a site with an ARTICLE. An Article is not the DATA. The data was a reference to the lawsuit going on).

As for the "all in your head" summation of people that haven't somehow won lawsuits (I hope you don't have some Pollyannic view that someone sues and the good guy wins?)...

I HOPE you are aware of the HUGE big deal that happened with the prescription drug Vioxx last year? Did you know the "all in their head" type people advised their clients 6 YEARS AGO not to take the drug because the data showed it could kill them. Mercola was one of them: http://www.mercola.c.../painkiller.htm

So just be aware that graciously accepting the advice of the "all in their head" people might just save your life. It's data for you to consume and do with as you wish - not to knee jerk attack it as if you have some expert knowledge on the matter.

It also shows the fatal flaw (pun intended) with your "lawsuit Darwinism". Many, many people die or get sick over many, many years - a few lawyers get rich - and the drug company pays back a portion of its profits in settlements. Works great, except when your mom dies.

A recent Italian study this year that showed NutraSweet causes cancer...excuse me...many cancers (causative links to malignant brain tumors, lymphoma, and leukemia).

Dr Morando Soffritti and colleagues at the Cancer Research Centre in Bologna fed eight-week-old rats varying concentrations of aspartame.

Compared with control rats given no sweetener, many of the female rats in the experiment developed lymphomas or leukaemias - the risk increasing with the dose of aspartame.

The researchers say their study raises concerns about the levels of aspartame to which humans can be exposed and, therefore, "urgent re-examination" of aspartame's safety is needed, "especially to protect children".

I guess the State Government of New Mexico is wrong as well since they are about to hold hearings to determine if they should ban the substance from the STATE.

I guess I dreamed this warning by doctors in New Mexico this Halloween:

Aspartame and neotame: two artificial sweeteners whose component ingredient, methanol, is metabolized as formaldehyde, among other byproducts, even though both continue to have U.S. FDA approval. Aspartame is 180 times sweeter than sugar. Another of aspartame's metabolized byproducts is phenylalanine, a chemical that is so serious as a brain toxin for those with a genetic condition called phenylketonuria that products containing it must by law bear labels to that effect.

    Neotame is 40 times sweeter than aspartame and 8,000 times sweeter than sugar. It can be used in such small amounts that manufacturers don't have to list it at all! Neotame's biochemical and medical effects have not been adequately researched.

    In order to protect New Mexico consumers, the New Mexico Environmental Improvement Board has scheduled hearings on aspartame in July 2006, having already heard medical evidence in this regard.
    In the meantime, we believe that parents should not take any risks with their child's safety, and at the very least, carefully examine lists of ingredients of the candies acquired this Halloween, and during the subsequent holiday seasons.

I made my point about NutraSweet in my last post, this was icing on the cake in case someone else reading this actually took your last post seriously.

What bothers me is that someone would defend a position they have not done due diligence on. This is Immortality Institute, not SteroidU where "good enough" is acceptable. If Nootropics or any other substance is taken outside the realm of long life practices - then that is a shortsighted and truly stupid endeavor.

[turbo]

I showed you that 80% of consumer complaints to the FDA are about NutraSweet products, and you said it's all in their head.

I provide you fact; you provide me opinion...worse yet, opinion that you "read somewhere".

Geha R, Buckley CE, Greenberger P, Patterson R, Polmar S, Saxon A, Rohr A, Yang W, Drouin M. Aspartame is no more likely than placebo to cause urticaria/angioedema: results of a multicenter, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study. J Allergy Clin Immunol. 1993 Oct;92(4):513-20. PMID: 8409113


i'm not heavy in this area, i actually came to this board, after discovering what nootropics are / are supposed to be, and am currently looking for info to prove they actually work. but, back to the topic on hand, you are right, i have not delved into this subject (sweeteners), and can't say for sure that they are not bad. however, people claiming that htey are, like they have real, hard proof, bothers me. you may be right, i may be right; i made the point of lawsuits because if this was readily provable, it would have been done. you may not believe that, but i cannot get myself to believe that a money hungry lawyer with undeniable evidence would be thwarted in this regard. i'm an economics major right now, that's just how my head works.

This is Immortality Institute, not SteroidU where "good enough" is acceptable. If Nootropics or any other substance is taken outside the realm of long life practices - then that is a shortsighted and truly stupid endeavor.

please don't try to make fun of wannabebig by calling it steroidU. If someone posted a link to your quest for immortality site over there they would flame it worse than you could ever flame them. in either case, it's stupid to belittle other people's interests. from my point of view, working towards infinite lifespans sounds just plain silly. i can just imagine a starving earth because we don't have more resources, yet everyone's living to 200. that's if i even thought that you guys were accomplishing what you're setting out to do. but, because i don't know, i keep my mouth sealed.

but when you see a lifting site and automatically think steroids, it definitely says something about you. you're the kind of person that just assumes that people with good bodies, adn who are great at sports, got it not through hard work, but drugs. you're the kind of person that makes me self conscious to the point that i don't take my shirt off unless i'm one of the last ones there to do so, because otherwise all i get is glares, and i know that hafl the people there just assume i'm on steroids (i look like i am, but i do not take steroids).


all hostility aside, i am honestly interested in your elaboration of the last sentence in the aforementioned post. i think that may be the key to the whole reason i'm on this site in teh first place [:o]

[turbo]

I showed you that 80% of consumer complaints to the FDA are about NutraSweet products, and you said it's all in their head.

I provide you fact; you provide me opinion...worse yet, opinion that you "read somewhere".

Geha R, Buckley CE, Greenberger P, Patterson R, Polmar S, Saxon A, Rohr A, Yang W, Drouin M. Aspartame is no more likely than placebo to cause urticaria/angioedema: results of a multicenter, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study. J Allergy Clin Immunol. 1993 Oct;92(4):513-20. PMID: 8409113


i'm not heavy in this area, i actually came to this board, after discovering what nootropics are / are supposed to be, and am currently looking for info to prove they actually work. but, back to the topic on hand, you are right, i have not delved into this subject (sweeteners), and can't say for sure that they are not bad. however, people claiming that htey are, like they have real, hard proof, bothers me. you may be right, i may be right; i made the point of lawsuits because if this was readily provable, it would have been done. you may not believe that, but i cannot get myself to believe that a money hungry lawyer with undeniable evidence would be thwarted in this regard. i'm an economics major right now, that's just how my head works.

This is Immortality Institute, not SteroidU where "good enough" is acceptable. If Nootropics or any other substance is taken outside the realm of long life practices - then that is a shortsighted and truly stupid endeavor.

please don't try to make fun of wannabebig by calling it steroidU. If someone posted a link to your quest for immortality site over there they would flame it worse than you could ever flame them. in either case, it's stupid to belittle other people's interests. from my point of view, working towards infinite lifespans sounds just plain silly. i can just imagine a starving earth because we don't have more resources, yet everyone's living to 200. that's if i even thought that you guys were accomplishing what you're setting out to do. but, because i don't know, i keep my mouth sealed.

but when you see a lifting site and automatically think steroids, it definitely says something about you. you're the kind of person that just assumes that people with good bodies, adn who are great at sports, got it not through hard work, but drugs. you're the kind of person that makes me self conscious to the point that i don't take my shirt off unless i'm one of the last ones there to do so, because otherwise all i get is glares, and i know that hafl the people there just assume i'm on steroids (i look like i am, but i do not take steroids).


all hostility aside, i am honestly interested in your elaboration of the last sentence in the aforementioned post. i think that may be the key to the whole reason i'm on this site in teh first place [:o]

[kevink]

...but when you see a lifting site and automatically think steroids, it definitely says something about you. you're the kind of person that just assumes that people with good bodies...

Uhmmm - I work out 5 days a week. [:o]

please don't try to make fun of wannabebig by calling it steroidU

wannabebig? Hadn't heard of it until you mentioned it.

I have no problem with lifting as a hobby. I personally want to look "swimmer" or "gymnast", but have nothing against a body builder.

The SteroidU was just a made up thing to symbolize any "quick result by screwing over my health" approach. The same could be said for a lot of recreational drugs or smoking.

i think that may be the key to the whole reason i'm on this site in teh first place

I'm not an immortalist. That's not my personal holy grail. Life Enhancement and Life Extension is where I'm at. Enhance my life so that I have extraordinary mental and physical abilities - and extend it so that I have more time to use them.

Edited by kevink, 19 November 2005 - 02:07 PM.