28 replies to this topic

[kali_ma]

Hi All,

I'm asking this question of behalf of my mother who has heart disease, it was inherited from her father and involves genetically high levels of chloesterol. As I live in the UK and neither of us are very rich, I'm curious to know what supplements are out there that might be of some benefit to my Mum?

[ajnast4r]

lots of oatmeal... the soluble fiber helps

1200mg red yeast rice + 100mg CoQ10 daily

the active compounds in red yeast rice are exactly the same as those in statin drugs... they disable an enzyme in the liver which takes part in making cholesterol and getting it into the blood, but the same enzyme also has a part in CoQ10 synthesis so you need to take additional CoQ10 with the red yeast rice.

[xanadu]

Many of the noo's are helpful to the heart function. I believe piracetam, centro and alcar are among others.

[scottl]

"genetically high levels of chloesterol."

Are we talking about your average "inherited" high levels of cholesterol, or true "familial hypercholesterolemia"?

If she has familial hypercholesterolemia...these people tend to have sky high levels of cholesterol and die VERY early. If this is the case she needs presecription meds e.g. statins (with co Q-10 e.g. 100-200 mg), etc.

Otherwise, fish oil, fish oil, fish oil...


then, B vitamins and extra folic acid, at least 500 mg vitamin c twice a day...., vitamin E (mixed tocopherols).

[kali_ma]

Yes Scottl, my Mum didn't realise she'd inherited this condition till she had her heart attack at 43, when I was 19. She is now 51 and on all the appropriate meds for her condition.

I'm just looking to see if I can give her some xtra help. I don't know if nayone knows the current state of play in treating/curing this condition?

[scottl]

OK so assuming she is taking statins:

--100 mg co Q-10/day (200 mg if affordable).

you want to make sure not just typical powdered co q-10 in caps but either coq-10 in gelcap with oil (like you often see vit e) or one of the many special forms of coq-10 which are more aborbable.

--fish oil. In her case I would work up to 2 grams EPA+DHA per day. She will need to be taking some vit e with that and you want one of the vit e forms that has decent amounts of all tocopherols i.e. gamma etc not just alpha. Bottle must list how much for each tocopherol (see prior posts on this board).
---------------------------------------------------------------------

minimum for basic health for anyone is 500 mg vit c twice a day and multi with some decent amount of Bs.

PM me if you wish more info.

[indigodawnlight]

This is from a company that sells supplements but they don't call them supplements, they call them "basics". They offer "Mega Doses" of Vitamin C.


The basics of heart disease

There are thousands of species of animals on Earth and only four do not produce their own ascorbates. Science has shown that many of the body's systems require ascorbates to function properly. Those systems, in the absence of ascorbates, will fall into dysfunction and disrepair.
Ascorbate deficiency has been irrefutably linked to the world's #1 killer-heart disease.

Ascorbate deficiency causes microscopic cracks, or lesions, to develop in arteries. Another term for the condition is "sub-clinical scurvy."

The body's response to these lesions is to "patch" them with the lipoprotein we know as LDL (lower-density lipoprotein) cholesterol. If the body did not patch these lesions, we would die from internal bleeding.

(Note: LDL cholesterol has been maligned as the "bad cholesterol" because cardiologists find it lining and, eventually, blocking blood vessels and arteries. The body creates "good" HDL [high-density lipoprotein] cholesterol to carry fats straight to the liver where they are eliminated as bile acids through the gall bladder and, ultimately, the intestines).

As time elapses, the cracks become more numerous and the older LDL cholesterol patches harden into plaque. The process causes the diameter of the arteries to become narrower.

This is why "high blood pressure" is usually the first sign of heart disease-its a law of nature that when the flow of liquid is restricted, increased pressure results.

Eventually, the restriction can become a blockage, shutting off the flow of blood to tissue in certain areas of the body. This eventuality damages tissue and leads to angina, strokes or heart attacks. Plaque and clumping blood can also break away from their moorings, travel to the heart and cause a heart attack.

Upon review, we now understand that the cause of heart disease is ascorbate defiency, which causes lesions in blood veins, vessels and arteries and that the body's response is to patch the lesions with LDL cholesterol to prevent us from bleeding to death. This process causes restrictions in blood flow which causes high blood pressure, eventually resulting in angina and heart attack.

Our task is to reverse the condition causing vesicular/arterial lesions and remove the plaque that has accumulated to patch these lesions.

************************END*******************

This is the website

[xanadu]

Do some research into the compounds I mentioned and read about heart protection. You might find something that will help her with her condition and they have side benefits too. I'm assuming your mother has gotten professional medical advice and is following it. Doctors don't normally want to stick their necks out and recommend something not usually given for that purpose. The reasons for that are fear of getting sued and not knowing much about it themselves. The doctors first have to be educated before they can help us. The thing is, some of those things have been around for decades and gotten a clean bill of health. It's just foolish not to look into long researched OTC medications like those.

At least read the material on it. If there is no toxicity shown then about the worst you're risking is mild gastric or other distress. You have to look into how to take them as well and how much. My advice? Do a lot of reading on this site and use the search function.

[tham]

You may want to try ribose, which is not particularly
expensive. Ribose has shown much promise in
ischemic heart disease and congestive heart failure.

http://bioenergy.com...ntent=abstracts

https://www.betterli...p?prod_id=13969


Artichoke tinctures and teas mentioned by Da_sense
are also very cost-effective for lowering cholesterol,
and protect the liver at the same time. Generally, most
liver-supportive and fat-burning nutrients and herbs
lower cholesterol somewhat.

Note though, ribose is a very potent inducer of advanced
glycation end products - it is a sugar. You may want to
counteract this with carnosine, pyridoxamine, aminoguanidine
and metformin. Metformin would be the cheapest and also
has benefits in heart disease. You may want to try, say half
a tablet of metformin daily. Metformin has been advocated
by some proponents such as Ward Dean of VRP as an
antiaging drug due to its multiple benefits. Indeed, many
life extensionists take at least a quarter 500 mg tablet of
metformin daily.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15526505


http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14502106


The flavonoids also prevent glycation - luteolin, quercetin
and rutin. Rutin would be the cheapest.

Surprisingly, thyme (mint), has potent antiglycation action
as well. It contains quercetin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=8541639

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15826074

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14577587

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=8886321

Edited by tham, 15 November 2005 - 02:27 AM.

[tham]

Ribose can be obtained from most health food stores.
The powders and capsules by Jarrow and Now are priced
reasonably. You can get it from my usual supplement
supplier in Santa Ana, California, Betterlife. The Jarrow
product is linked above. Source Naturals has it as chewable
wafers and is also not too expensive.

http://betterlife.co...sp?prod_id=8971

http://betterlife.co...sp?prod_id=8970

http://betterlife.co...sp?prod_id=6847


A moderate dosage of just 2 grams a day would bring
fairly good benefits for the heart. At this rate, the Now
capsules would last about 40 days, the powder about
50 days.


Here are other sources .

http://www.bodybuild...ore/ribose.html

http://www.canadadru...ProductID=64918

http://www.dexterspo...ar/psribok.html

Edited by tham, 15 November 2005 - 10:46 AM.

[scottl]

THe benefits of fish oil are well established by a zillion articles (try pub med) and the american heart association recommends it.

Perhaps since you are suggesting that someone with advanced heart disease take ribose you could provide some evidence that it would be helpful?

This must be what you had in mind:

"In a study of 20 men (aged 45 to 69 years) with documented severe coronary artery disease and a history of angina induced by normal daily activities, 60 grams of ribose (in four doses of 15 grams each) were tested against placebo. Treated subjects exhibited improvement as measured electrocardiographically, and time to onset of moderate angina (during exercise testing) increased significantly in those ribose-treated subjects. There was no significant electrocardiograph improvement in the placebo group, and there was no significant difference between the groups in time to onset of moderate angina. The authors concluded: "In patients with CAD, administration of ribose by mouth for three days improved the heart's tolerance to ischemia. The presumed effects on cardiac energy metabolism offer new possibilities for adjunctive medical treatment of myocardial ischemia."

http://www.pdrhealth.../dri_0226.shtml

but 60g??? Yikes.

[tham]

Hi Scott,

I am not saying that an old woman should take 60 gram
doses of ribose, the above study is a quite extreme, of
course. Nobody would be able to take that much daily,
let alone afford it.

That high a dose of ribose would cause problems like
hypoglycemia and decreased lymphocyte count.

Most of the studies on ribose are in the Bioenergy link
above. The researcher from Bioenergy sent me
copies of some of these studies some time back and
they used typically up to 15-gram doses for congestive
heart failure. I'll have to look around for his envelope
later.

Even 15 grams is relatively on the high side of the budget
for anyone, and close to the 20-gram daily limit taken
chronically. Thus a daily dosage of 2 to 5 grams as an
adjuvant to drugs and other supplements, like fish oil,
would be fairly helpful to any heart patient, and far easier
on the pocket.

Ribose doesn't really do anything for cholesterol, but
rather improves replenishment of cardiac intracellular
energy nucleotides (ATP, ADP & AMP) that are depleted
due to ischemia, i.e. independent of oxygen. Coenzyme
Q10 and L-carnitine apparently require oxygen in order
to enhance such energy recovery in cardiac muscle -
and thus are not really helpful in ischemic tissue. I believe
this unique property is what makes ribose the subject of
intensive research in congestive heart failure as well as
ischemic heart disease currently.

I am currently giving my 84-year old father a 5-gram sachet
of ribose daily. After about 10 sachets, I was a bit shocked
when he told me he managed to climb up three flights of
stairs without much effort (I start to pant a little by the
third flight at 47). Obviously congestive heart failure
patients require more, probably around 10 grams for his
weight, but again budget constraints, and more importantly
side effects and compliance (difficult for an old man)
leaves me with the 5-gram dosage as a good compromise.
I'm lucky already he wants to take this supplement in
addition to others.

Like you, fish oils were first on my mind and one of the
first supplements I gave him, but he had some problems
tolerating them, complaining of dizziness, gastric
discomfort and gassiness. I have compromised by giving
him small cod liver oil gels.

However, after checking out on Medline that ribose is
actually used as a very potent inducer of AGES in studies
on antiglycation drugs and nutrients yesterday, I'm going
to have to find some good antiglycation supplements
and/or drugs to give him. I'm thinking of half to one tab of
metformin daily.

A quick link on ribose, which also cites the study you
mentioned. Note the paragraph :

"Research has shown that about 3 to 5 grams of ribose
taken every day should put enough in the bloodstream
to ensure that the heart and skeletal-muscle cells have
an adequate supply."

http://www.bodybuild.../fun/issa36.htm


I came across the research on ribose by accident when
I suspected that the nutrients used typically by bodybuilders,
which includes ribose, HMB (hydroxy methylbutyrate),
creatine, BCAAs and glutamine, may well have applications
in heart failure. The heart, after all, is a muscle, and general
body muscle wasting (cachexia) also accompanies heart
failure and old age.

One of the beverages I had given him initially was something
I found in one of the local pharmacies here (there are hardly
any health food stores in Malaysia), meant more for people
working out, containing smaller amounts of creatine,
ribose and HMB.

Some links on HMB. It's quite expensive though.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=10917905

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15105032

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15665304

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15915823


As I mentioned in my intro earlier, I'm no professional,
just an amateur with some interest in life extension
trying to find some novel supplements to help my
old man with an improved quality of life and hopefully
a lengthened lifespan.

[tham]

Taurine's effect on cholesterol and more
importantly, atherosclerosis. Note that in the
first study, catechins (green tea flavonoids) with its
potent antioxidant properties was ineffective
compared to taurine.


http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12680850

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=16075725

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15649278

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15221507

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15170106

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=15118255

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=14761670

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12693699

Edited by tham, 18 November 2005 - 08:01 PM.

[tham]

The above studies showing that taurine retards
atherosclerosis despite relatively minimal effects
on blood lipids would appear to confirm many
authorities' views that cholesterol, or at least by itself,
is not really the cause of cardiovascular disease.

http://www.westonapr...ts_cholest.html

http://www.westonapr...holesterol.html

http://www.second-op.../cvd_index.html


Half of all heart attacks occur in the face of normal
cholesterol. 80% of the cholesterol in our system
is manufactured by our livers anyway, even if we
don't eat any. Cholesterol is the source of our
hormone cascade - prenenolone > DHEA/progesterone/
aldosterone > cortisol/androstenodione > estradiol/estriol/estrone/testosterone, etc.


As I recall, Richard Passwater, in his 1977 book,
Supernutrition for Health Hearts, offered a challenge
on the back cover to the effect of - "If anyone can prove
that cholesterol is the cause of heart disease, I will
donate all proceeds from this book to the American
Heart Association".

[DukeNukem]

o High quality fish oil.

o High quantities of vitamin C, up to 10 grams daily, spread throughout the day.
http://www.lewrockwe...di/sardi42.html

Also, stay completely away from fried foods and dairy foods. And any processed food with trans-fat. Eat lots of green and colorful vegetables, and lean proteins, like chicken breast and turkey breast. Avoid fruit juices, as they will raised triglycerides. Whole fruits are okay in moderation. And stay away from any grain containing food that does not contain whole grains.

Diet and supplements can definitely prevent and control heart desease, even genetically predisposed heart desease.

Scott

[rfarris]

...stay completely away from fried foods and dairy foods...

I recently added raw milk to my diet -- about 10oz/day. I also have some hard cheese -- currently parmigiano. Do you include those in your advice against dairy food?

[tham]

I could not upload any files here, so I had to create
a page to upload the scanned images of the some of
the copies of ribose studies which the researcher from
Bioenergy, Dr John St Cyr, sent me two years ago.

I am not good at creating websites with links or directories,
so I just uploaded the images to the main directory as
they are.


http://geocities.com/ribose_heart/

[tham]

Pantethine and its benefits.

It has been used in Japan for some time at
dosages of 600 to 900 mg daily. Pantethine
is a bit expensive though.

http://betterlife.co...sp?prod_id=9197

http://www.pantesin.com


http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=2359503

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=3551695

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=3098691

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=3094958

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=4066081

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=3935096

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=6442152

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=6365107

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=6232801

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=7066075

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=7256794


Pantethine also has cataract inhibiting properties.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=7591646

Edited by tham, 22 November 2005 - 01:58 PM.

[tham]

Some further studies on taurine in heart failure,
notably its blockade of angiotensin II.
I didn't realize that taurine was this critical.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=16025228

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12717103

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12717106

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=3308700

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=9635025

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=10949914


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine

[kali_ma]

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who replied to this topic, your advice has meant a lot to me. I was able to find a product at my local chemist called CardioAce which contains folic acid, b6 and b12, Omega 3, garlic and cartenoids. My Mum is now taking it and I've promised to get her more if she likes it. Thanks again:)

[rfarris]

I just looked up Pantethine at Vitacost.com, and they have the Jarrow brand for $18 for 90 softgels x 300 mg, and their house brand (NSI) at $30 for 120 tabs x 450 mg. I've had good service as well as good product at Vitacost.

[hallucinogen]

...stay completely away from fried foods and dairy foods...

I recently added raw milk to my diet -- about 10oz/day. I also have some hard cheese -- currently parmigiano. Do you include those in your advice against dairy food?

Excluding dairy products?> Don't make me laugh, I would think you would know better then to say that. I would avoid raw milk though.

[scottl]

Buying pantothene is tricky since most products are like 1/2 pantothenic acid and you need...forget if it is 750 or 1000 mg/day (not including pantothenic acid).

[tham]

If you buy the products by Now, Kal, Nutricology, Jarrow
or Vitacost, these contain the patented form of pantethine
called Pantesin, from Daiichi of Japan.

Pantesin capsules are 600 mg, containing about 55%, or
330 mg of pantethine.

http://pantesin.com/about/products.php

http://betterlife.co...p?prod_id=20469

Generally 2 to 3 capsules or softgels a day should be sufficient.

[rfarris]

If you read carefully at Vitacost, 600mg is two capsules. According to Scott's claim that you need around 1g, then you would need five to six capsules, not two or three.

[DukeNukem]

I recently added raw milk to my diet -- about 10oz/day. I also have some hard cheese -- currently parmigiano. Do you include those in your advice against dairy food?

100% against dairy foods, although I do have a total of 5-6 slices of thin crust pizza a month, and therefore do consume a little amount of cheese myself, but never do I otherwise eat any dairy. It's been proven beyond question that dairy is a leading contributor to many key diseases of aging, including cancer. The culprits are both the saturated fat, but just as damaging is the casein protein found only in dairy, which promotes cancer like gasoline promotes fire when poured on a lit match.

Oddly, this well researched (in many countries) fact has yet to propagate widely, possibly because the dairy industry -- one of our largest -- has such a huge stake in this fact not getting publicity, not to mention our economy and the economies of many other countries would seriously suffer. And what's more important, our economy or our health? Anyone that answers the latter is living on fantasy island.

We've all been raised to believe milk is healthy, and so when we hear differently we strongly resist the idea that we've been wrong all this time. Plus, let's face it, dairy products are so damned good, and so we do not want to believe we should stop eating them! Fried foods are deee-licious, too. But they haven't been around for 4000+ years and so it's easier to believe they can be bad for us. But milk is a relative new addition to human diets, coming along much later than even grains (11,000 years ago), which are also generally bad for us. We never evolved to consume dairy, and we have no defense against casein, in particular. It's literally candy for cancer, and sets it into rapid proliferation mode. And since we ALL have cancer cells floating around in our bodies (typically squashed by our immune system), the last thing we need is a protein in our system that gives those cancer cells a fighting chance to take root and thrive.

Anyone concerned with anti-aging should avoid dairy, like Jack LaLanne has done (going strong in his 90's), for example. Or, if you can't accept that dairy is bad, well, ...best of luck.

[tham]

Now, Kal and Jarrow appear to contain 300 mg
of pantethine proper, which would mean about 550 mg
of Pantesin at the 55% stated concentration. The Nutricology
product has 600 mg Pantesin, or 330 mg pantethine.

I have emailed Now to confirm the 300 mg strength.

Carlson is also 300 mg in time-released form. Carotec
is 450 mg, which means that two gels daily should be
enough.

Swanson also looks like 300 mg pantethine.

The Jarrow product at Vitacost has a promotional sale
of an extra 50% content or 30 softgels, so this looks like
a good buy.

http://betterlife.co...sp?prod_id=9197

http://betterlife.co...p?prod_id=11683

http://betterlife.co...p?prod_id=13958


http://www.nutraceut...uct_index=70486

http://jarrow.com/pr....php?prodid=247

http://www.carlsonla...25e9b807a90ce60

http://carotec.com/S.../product/53/155

http://www.swansonvi...null&Ntk=Level1


The minimum dosage used in the studies was 600 mg
daily, which would probably be enough for moderately
high cholesterol and more than enough for general
maintenance. For conditions like familial Type IIB
hyperlipoproteinemia, 900 to 1,200 mg might be required.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=6365107

http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=11425046

http://www.loweringc...ntethine-dosage

http://www.pdrhealth.../pan_0195.shtml


This product by Enzymatic Therapy looks like a
good combination.

http://betterlife.co...p?prod_id=14326

Edited by tham, 01 December 2005 - 10:13 AM.