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Effects on Marriage and Family


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#1 brandon86

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 04:49 AM


What do all of you think increased longevity/immortality would have on the nature of marriage and family? I've encountered only two articles that briefly touched the subject. I am very much interested in the subject of marriage and family as I believe they form the basis of society. I could be wrong but I don't think so. One article seemed convinced that traditional marriage would fade away and we'd all become a bunch of free love hippies. Not appeasing to me in any respect. Another proposed that traditional marriage would continue, even made better by drugs that could produce the biochemicals that cause emotions like love and affection, but also felt that new forms of marriage would also emerge. Both articles didn't mention any effects that this stuff might have on the family as a whole, like parent-children relationships, grandparent-grandchild relationships, etc. Just looking for some opinions, so please answer with your thoughts on the subject.

#2 kevin

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 07:41 AM

Throughout human history there have been many variations and cultural adaptations regarding family structure. If we look at "traditional" in the true sense of the word, we should be huddled in groups of about 30 or so individuals as our psychology is the most comfortable with such an arrangement having spent most of our evolutionary development in small tribes of that number. The family structure we see in modern times is actually an anomaly in this light.

I tend to think that the future will allow stronger and more permanent connections. Especially with those members of society who we feel the most close to, starting with our genetic predecessors. I certainly want my parents to be bouncing great-great-great-great-great-great grandchildren on their knee, or showing them how the crab nebulae looks from the other side of the galaxy.

Far from loosening family ties, longer indefinite lifespans and more control of our biology will ensure that we also gain more responsibility for how we maintain these connections. If we actually have a choice how we 'feel' about others it will be difficult to blame relationship problems on "I've changed.." or "We just grew apart.." Serious connections, such as those involved in forming a family, will be viewed quite a bit differently and treated with a lot more respect then they are today.

Of course, if you look a bit farther down the road at a 'posthuman' future, you move actually BEYOND biology and 'traditional' anything. Marriage, the "tradtional" family, and even gender are hard to define when applied to lifeforms that don't have biological bodies. There you simply have entities with varying characters and qualities who may feel inclined to create together another lifeform who is formed from the best of what they have to offer. I would think we might have children with many parents, each one adding something of themselves in the child's creation. I sometimes wonder what would constitute a child in that future... Would the child be a fully formed entity or would it have a developmental and maturation program that it would follow under the care of other entities? Perhaps it would instinctively know how to perform fourier analysis like human children are attracted to bright objects.. :) but maybe it would need some tutelage to understand multi-dimensional physics well enough to drive its parent's hyperslider to the prom.

Really.. when it comes to describing what a posthuman future holds in store.. we are guaranteed to be wrong, but it isn't going to be anything like what we know now.

#3 brandon86

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 08:34 AM

Throughout human history there have been many variations and cultural adaptations regarding family structure. If we look at "traditional" in the true sense of the word, we should be huddled in groups of about 30 or so individuals as our psychology is the most comfortable with such an arrangement having spent most of our evolutionary development in small tribes of that number. The family structure we see in modern times is actually an anomaly in this light.


Yeah, I understand that. I'm actually earning a double major in sociology and psychology. I love that stuff, nothing is more interesting. In fact, I'm not really too interested in the hard science that may bring about posthumans as much as I am interested in the effects of such changes on society. I feel the need to point out that even though many of us live in huge cities (I am from a town of 900 and as such enjoy small groups) we still tend to form our own small groups and stick with them. We all know more than 30 people, but how many of us have regular gatherings of that size? We don't reject our past practices, just alter them as society evolves. That's my two cents, anyway.

I tend to think that the future will allow stronger and more permanent connections. Especially with those members of society who we feel the most close to, starting with our genetic predecessors


That's my line of thinking on that as well. The bond of parent and child is the first to develop, so naturally that is where the first deepening of human relationships would occur. Then it would probably go on to siblings, friends, spouses, etc.

Of course, if you look a bit farther down the road at a 'posthuman' future, you move actually BEYOND biology and 'traditional' anything. Marriage, the "tradtional" family, and even gender are hard to define when applied to lifeforms that don't have biological bodies.


One might assume that posthumans that started out as human will remember what it was like to be biological and as such will maintain something like marriage, traditional family, some sense of gender, etc. But those born as a posthuman may not. Or we former humans may simply teach them. Hell, I'm sure we'd all be more intelligent that Einstein so it wouldn't be much of a problem.

I sometimes wonder what would constitute a child in that future... Would the child be a fully formed entity or would it have a developmental and maturation program that it would follow under the care of other entities?


I'd say a posthuman born with a need to development and mature would be a child and one born fully developed would be simply be an offspring.

Really.. when it comes to describing what a posthuman future holds in store.. we are guaranteed to be wrong, but it isn't going to be anything like what we know now.


Very true, it's hard to know what the future will hold. In the end I think society will change radically but will still maintain some semblance of what it was. It, for the most part, always has. It'd be foolhardy to abandon everything we once held dear, don't you think?

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#4 kevin

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 12:19 AM

It'd be foolhardy to abandon everything we once held dear, don't you think?


We never abandon what works in our search for meaning in life. The essence of what we hold dear and the best that we are now serve as the building blocks of the next level of human development, biological or otherwise. What people will continue to want and will always strive for is personal choice and ways to exist which harmonize with their inner dynamics and growth directions.

No matter which way you slice it, the future will not be 'less' than what we have now, but more. What we know now will become a subset of the choices of available modes of living.

#5 brandon86

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 04:32 AM

What people will continue to want and will always strive for is personal choice and ways to exist which harmonize with their inner dynamics and growth directions.


What we know now will become a subset of the choices of available modes of living.


My real interest is what those other modes of living would end up being. One can look to the past to get an idea, but past practices were discarded largely because of trial and error. They may not work so well in the present or future. I think so, anyway. Isn't speculation of this kind fun? :)

#6 boundlesslife

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Posted 29 November 2005 - 09:24 AM

My real interest is what those other modes of living would end up being.  One can look to the past to get an idea, but past practices were discarded largely because of trial and error.  They may not work so well in the present or future.  I think so, anyway.  Isn't speculation of this kind fun? :)

Speculation on the distant future is fun, as in one story about a man who wakes up in a distant space colony and finds that he is all that remains of an early civilization that vanished, eons ago, in an early story by one of the pioneer cryonicists, the story being titled: Travelling.

Equally fun, perhaps fun is too light a word, is the subject of what it does to even present-day relationships. If your primary relationship is based on the idea of "going forward into the future together", then the bond with your primary partner in this "life cycle" (as cryonicists are fond of calling it) is strengthened to the point of being a stronger pledge to "be there for each other" than you will usually find in ordinary marriages, as illustrated in many other stories (link on sig, below).

One interesting side-effect you notice in even less closely bonded relationships, among other life extensionists, is that the idea of "going forward into the future" is, itself, such a strong orientation that it gives a sense of continuity to the relationship that transcends separations of many years. If you run into someone you knew in a life extension context many years ago, even decades ago, assuming that the orientation of "going forward into the future" still holds for both of you, there is, upon meeting once more, a feeling that only a few seconds has lapsed, that you "are both 'still on the same page', so to speak".

In this and many other ways, a life extensionist orientation tends to stabilize and enrich bonds between people, vs. weakening them.

boundlesslife

#7 john e

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 02:38 PM

As a "Spiritual Engineer" I would say that marriage and the affects vary depending on the culture and individual upbringing of the soul and mind of the human being. Other variables that have affected marriage in the past and that will in days to come are very numerous and entangling.

Biotechnology combined with other far-reaching technologies will have a huge impact on the world, as we know it.

I have been involved in applications of brain wave technology as a subject and consultant to a group of intelligence community people all around the world.

They are in the process of understanding the origin of thoughts and have been able to read peoples mind for years now. The software to translate brain waves has been improving a great deal in the past 5 years or so. They have the ability to send and receive brain wave signals wirelessly, which enables them to know our every thought and dream. We will be seeing brain wave printing like we have with fingerprinting in the near future. They have the capability to receive brain wave signals from humans and all other creatures on earth within a current range of about 50 miles depending on the conditions of the area.

There is also been huge gains in understanding how the mind and soul work together and how they are affected by the Holy Spirit and Evil Spirits. I’m sure this will have an impact on the family structure in the cultures that agree to improve the dysfunctional family structure. A good person does not make a good parent. I person with understanding and good parenting skills is what makes a person a good parent. The union of two people together is a spiritual matter not a scientific or biological matter.

-John Eisenschenk
December 3, 2005

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 03:01 PM

They have the ability to send and receive brain wave signals wirelessly, which enables them to know our every thought and dream.


Hi John, it sounds fascinating. Could you tell us more about this?

#9 Mind

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 03:20 PM

Marriage and family will no doubt change. I suspect that new forms of humans and human societies will bring about new forms of relationships that are different than traditional marriage. Stable families/marriages work well in today's world and I think people who are dedidcated spouses will retain some sort of connection in the future. I just don't think it will be the same monogomous long term social contract that it is today.

#10 john e

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 07:46 PM

Prometheus,
I believe the technology isn't much different than RFID technology with the ability to translate the brain waves to known language of information.

God is pouring out his wisdom these days so we can do the greater work that Christ said we will do.

The meaning of life in a word is Fellowship.

Our Heavenly Father created souls for fellowship and we are becoming one with him.
~John

#11 aurora

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 08:31 PM

It's fascinating to discuss, but one has to wonder-what is the likelihood of couples been together or married for thousands of years?Do you think there would be an adequate mathematical prediction, maby before a relationship has even began or is declared official in the public domain?I'm sure there would be some that may grow apart after, say, 2000 years together, but then if it's bliss for them, then another 2000 would be heavenly.I think the current social structure would surely change, and what is viewed as normal family relations today would have to be redefined eventually.And if biochemicals are commonly produced and used in relationships then maby divorce would cease to exist or future advanced beings would be assigned one "eternal mate".But I doubt that people would like to have their partner chosen for them, but one has to consider compatibility tests, biology and genetics research illuminating aspects of human nature.Why and how people pick certain mates may completely change.

#12 john e

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 09:47 PM

I'm sorry Aurora, I just can't make heads or tails of your theory. There are no true mathematical predictions for natural and man-made disasters that will affect the chemical, intellectual and spiritual makeup of creatures on earth.

The questions we need to try find the answers to, are more in the realm of will earth be able to outlive mankind? If not then where would we live and would we be able remain with our mate. There are also other considerations in the realm of eternal marriage.

It is very possible to have a soul mate for eternity with the understanding of how souls can communicate continually with distance not being a factor in the communication. Is earth the best location for our bodies to reside for eternity?

Yes it is possible for mankind to outlive the earth by growing new organs to replace the aging or defective organs of the body, including the brain. There are other species that have been doing this and we can learn how to do it ourselves as we are doing with the reverse engineering of the mind and body along with the understanding of how other species grow new body parts.
~John

#13 brandon86

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 02:56 AM

As a "Spiritual Engineer"


Forgive my ignorance but what is a "spiritual engineer?"

I just don't think it will be the same monogomous long term social contract that it is today.


I think it (monogamous, long-term marriage) will continue for some and others will opt for something different. A primary reason I think it would continue for some is science can't be all that far from being able to create a drug that produces the biochemicals of the first stage of love, that joyous and often times overwhelming feeling. Few in that state would be interested in ending it. There will no doubt be other reasons as well. I'm not sure what.

And if biochemicals are commonly produced and used in relationships then maby divorce would cease


I believe that could be the case or at the very least an option for those interested.

It is very possible to have a soul mate for eternity with the understanding of how souls can communicate continually with distance not being a factor in the communication. Is earth the best location for our bodies to reside for eternity?


Correct me if I am wrong, but are we entering into some kind of semi-spiritual discussion?

Edited by brandon86, 04 December 2005 - 06:22 AM.


#14 john e

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 04:49 AM

I haven’t come up with a definitive definition for “Spiritual Engineer” yet. Basically it is a person who works with the developments for the true understanding of how the spiritual realm coexists with the brain.

Well brain wave signals are simular to spiritual signals.

It is totally amazing to have two-way conversations with the intelligence community with my thoughts alone. They were even able to share their excitement with me during the first one.

~John

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 06:07 AM

I believe the technology isn't much different than RFID technology with the ability to translate the brain waves to known language of information.


Ok, you mean RFID as radio frequency ID? I can see how one could capture electroencephalography (EEG) data and then transmit it, but the interesting bit is the translation into "known language of information". You said,

They have the ability to send and receive brain wave signals wirelessly


which means they can send are receive EEG data, and then you said,

which enables them to know our every thought and dream


I was not aware this was possible John. Can you elaborate on how they translate the EEG into language?

#16 brandon86

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 06:32 AM

Despite the fact it is getting off topic (something I normally hate) John's statements have interested me. Like the following:

I have been involved in applications of brain wave technology as a subject and consultant to a group of intelligence community people all around the world.


By intelligence community are you talking about the CIA? Military Intelligence?

and have been able to read peoples mind for years now.


What? When did I miss this little development?

There is also been huge gains in understanding how the mind and soul work together and how they are affected by the Holy Spirit and Evil Spirits.


What???

Well brain wave signals are simular to spiritual signals.


I didn't know there were any "spiritual signals" found that could be studied.

I was not aware this was possible John. Can you elaborate on how they translate the EEG into language?


Yes, could you do that? I think we're all a little confused here. I am, anyway.

#17 john e

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 07:06 AM

Please go to my profile and read my last 10 posts.
~John

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 08:36 AM

I learned how to deal with evil spirits and was able to boldly use the anointing of God which brought the interest of the intelligence community and without speaking directly to me we started to work together


Is this what you meant?

#19 john e

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 11:03 AM

Evil spirits can easily be subdued and rendered useless. I once was at a meeting and a person who was possessed by evil spirits was not able to disrupt the meeting while I was there with the Holy Spirit, leaving the poor gentleman weeping while standing off to the side.
~John

#20 john e

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 08:30 AM

I would like to expound on this further. Although it is easy to have authority over evil spirits that have possessed a person or animal for that matter, it is an extremely difficult to have authority over a human or creature that is an evil spirit. People who are an evil spirit are masters at deception so identifying them may take the anointing of God to understand that the person is anointed. There is more to this and I’m sure I will have more time in the future to address this issue. The points I want to get to at this time is that there will be a time in the future where there will be few people on earth who are not evil spirits and we will need AI systems and networks in place to deal with this scenario.

I have been showing the intelligence community the needs that will be required for this. I’m sure there is more to come. The intelligence community needs the scientific community to join with them to accomplish this task. We have been sidetracked for many years now and we need to work together in cooperation with each other. There is a huge amount of time and money being spent on trying to prove theories wrong or bickering about this and that. We also need a lot of help from the media. The intelligence community will be working with the scientific community and the media to accomplish this.

The intelligence community has been growing exponently at a faster rate than technology has since 9-11. And now is the time to be bold and explain why the intelligence community allowed 9-11 to happen and that they were behind the anthrax mailings.

In regards to the anthrax mailings, it was necessary to get the U.S. government to listen to them and take appropriate security measures to thwart the plans of the terrorist community. It turned out worse than planned and that is because of spiritual laws, which I will discuss when the time is right.

Speaking of time. The scientific community doesn’t have a grasp, like the intelligence community does on the timing of advancements and the implementation of the advancements. That in combination with classified information is why much advancement has been withheld. With the exponential growth of the intelligence community there isn’t much of a need for a lot of classified information. There are other factors in these areas that we will discuss in time.

9-11 was allowed to happen for many reasons. First and foremost was the timing for the war against evil. We needed to be at the advancement stage that technology was in then in order to begin World War Three. The war against evil. We needed the attacks to happen so that we would have support from most countries around the world to fight the war. The attack was a bit worse than expected but that helped in opening doors for the intelligence community even more than they expected. And honestly they didn’t know how things were going to work out afterward with regard to the use of wireless brain wave technology. Our Heavenly Father instructed me to have them use it at an exponential rate. Securing the software used to translate the brain wave signals was a major project. We worked together in seeing the need to use this technology in consumer products. We have the capability to wirelessly control electronic equipment with our thoughts. Releasing this technology to the scientific community will bring about peace and love like this world has never seen. This is the greater work that Christ said we would do.
~John

#21 john e

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 10:25 AM

I would like to introduce this poem at this time.

Has to Stop

Living in a world where there's
Violence among others
On night there's 3 or even 10 fatalities
This all has to stop
Women and children are dying
Mothers, fathers and sons are crying.

No one deserves to leave this world
In a matter of hate
Just children on the street, in gangs
Using drugs and being killed
But when they're high, it seems like a thrill.

We must stop the violence and drugs around
Get the streets clean with a peaceful sound
Just love for all not discriminate
For God's children are all the same
So no race in this world is to blame.
-Lore V.

Along with this poem that I recently wrote:

The Life Of Friendship

Life is about finding a friend,
A friend is about finding life;

The life of a friend is the life you look for,
The friend of life is the friend you look for;

The life friend you find is all your life,
All your life is the friend you have for life;

To find a friendship for life is to find life in a friendship,
To find life in a friendship is to find yourself life;

Accepting a friend for life is accepting life,
Accepting the life of a friend is to receive truth friendship for life,
Receiving a friendship for life is receiving a true gift,
Giving yourself as a true friend is to give life;

To find a true friend for life is to give your life in true friendship,
That is the friendship of life and the life of friendship.
-John Eisenschenk

#22 london710

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 12:24 AM

john e, i feel sorry for you if you really believe everything you say. maybe you should look for a "conspiracy theory" forum of some sort? [wis]

#23 john e

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 01:06 AM

Thank you for the comment, London. If you take a good look around, you will see that I get my information from the breakthroughs of science and biotechnology.
Best Wishes Always,
~John

#24 kevin

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 01:39 AM

john e,

A friendly reminder. Please try to remain more focused on the topic of the thread. We are all guilty of straying on occasion but it provides a better experience for everyone if what is present in the threads has some connection to its title and the intent of its author.

You may wish to place stories, poetry etc in the forum that is designed to hold those kinds of items..

http://www.imminst.o...?s=&act=SF&f=16

#25 brandon86

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 04:04 AM

I've tried to think of a few possible alternatives that may emerge to a monogamous, long-term/permanent marriage. To do this I have looked a great deal at the past. The first alternative that came to mind is polygyny. For those of you who don't know what that is, polygyny is when a man takes on multiple wives. Of course this occured in many ancient cultures, though not in Rome or Greece. It declined worldwide with the rise of Christianity and is on the decline in Muslim countries where it is still legal. That may have to do with economics as well as some liberal/reform movements within Islam itself that has challenged the practice. While it may emerge as a possible alternative in the future, it won't be widespread. Why you ask? There are roughly an equal number of men to women. So not many guys will be able to take several wives without the rest of us being screwed. There were some influences in ancient society that prevented that from happening but they would be moot in a post-death world. They were things like men getting married late and women early (if we all live a long time that doesn't really mean much, does it?), higher mortality rate for men, and the cost of buying a girl from her family. The second alternative is polyandry, a woman taking multiple husbands. Same problem with it: near equal number of men and women. And it was not very common, probably due the fact ancient men weren't thrilled about sharing their wives on a permanent basis. Of course these two forms of marriage will likely become an alternative, they won't be widespread. A third alternative, and much more rare, is polygynandry. That is group marriage. A good example is in Star Trek: Enterprise. Dr. Phlox's race practices this form of marriage. The good doctor has three wives, in turn each wife has three husbands. It doesn't appear many ancient societies practiced this, but we could be wrong. Modern day experiements include the Kerista Commune from 1971 to 1991. It had a difference of opinion internally and split. Since it is a combo of both forms of polygamous marriage it could have a bright future; the near equal number of men and women works well for this type of marriage. Speculation about the future of marriage shouldn't include just a look at the past, however. It is possible that temporary marriages will form, that being a marriage that expires after a certain period of time. Another alternative could be open marriages. Two spouses but they aren't required to faithful to only each other. I'm not so sure that will work out well; it was tried in the seventies without much success. That could be for a variety of reasons which could be worked out should a couple choose this form. Of course good ole bachelorhood will always be available as well as unmarried cohabitation and serial monogamy. Any thoughts?

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Posted 07 December 2005 - 09:56 AM

Heinlein (the science fiction author) seemed to have an interesting notion - that relationships should not be based on sexual jealousy.

#27 john e

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 03:26 AM

Dear Kevin,
I introduced those poems because I thought they were valuable information in the area of family. I was associating family with marriage more than I should have. Thank you for keeping me focused and helping me to be the best person that I can be. Please don't hesitate to let me know if you see that I am straying away in any area.
Thank you very much and thank you for the wonderful job that you are doing here.
~John

#28 brandon86

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 09:00 AM

Heinlein (the science fiction author) seemed to have an interesting notion - that relationships should not be based on sexual jealousy.


Heinlein also mentions, in some detail, a unique form of group marriage called line marriage. This is a very interesting form of marriage in which new members of the group marriage are added over time to prevent the marriage from dying. As a result, line marriage could actually last for hundreds of years or more. Heinlein presented many interesting ideas in his works but the line marriage I find most interesting. His idea that relationships not be based on sexual jealousy is a nice idea for some, however, humans by our very nature (psychological and biological) have a tendency to stake out a territory (even amongst sexual partners) and not want anyone else to go there. Is that bad? No. Should that be the only form of marriage/relationship around? No. Each must be allowed to decide for themselve what is best for them in the end. Some people prefer to be a one person man/woman. Others feel a different need. The future will no doubt be different, but it will be based on the present and to some extent the past as well as future developments not yet known. I think that as time goes on the divorce rate will decline, monogamy will continue but will have alternatives like group marriage and so forth. Science itself may very well end up saving monogamy (though I think it is more than capable of surviving on its own) as well as paving the way for the creation of alternatives.

#29 john e

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 09:16 AM

Brandon, It sounds like you want to combine marriage with friendship when they should be seperated.
~John

#30 brandon86

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Posted 08 December 2005 - 10:43 PM

Brandon, It sounds like you want to combine marriage with friendship when they should be seperated.


No, I don't. I am very much a social conservative. Despite that I know a future with indefinite life would change things and I am just wondering how. The problem with asking such questions on indefinite life forums is that they tend to have many transhumanists present and from my understanding transhumanism tends to have a younger (under 45) male majority. That isn't actually the best place to ask questions about what marriage might, or should become. Not very representative of the populace as whole. But still no other type of website would really understand the nature of the question. Of course I'm not saying the ideas presented here are any less valid; its just important to remember that those who decide what marriage will become may themselves not subscribe to transhumanism even if they themselves have tranhumanist qualities.




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