25 replies to this topic

[isaiah]

Hello,

I am just getting started in this area. A couple of months a go I went to GNC and bought a few bottles of vitamins. Having spent several weeks lurking here and browsing around it seems my initial choices were not so good. I am interested in both nootropics and supplements. The nootropics I purchased have been worthwhile, the supplements I am less pleased with and I am still not sure where my money would be best spent. The only supplement that I am really pleased with so far is Nordic Naturals Ultimate Omega.

My goals are cognitive functioning and anti-aging. What got me staarted was looking through a book by a neurologist on Brain Health (I don't remember the title) that recommended 30mg CoQ10, 200 IU Vitamin E, 50 mg B-Complex, 500 mg B-12, and an Omega 3 supplement. From what I have learned Ortho-Core would be a wiser choice than taking these vitamins by themselves. When I have gone through my current stock I intend to start taking Ortho-Core. What do you recomment taking in addition to Ortho-Core for the above goals?

I see that Ortho-Core has a fraction of the Vitamin E and Vitamin B-12 that the neurologist suggested. Does anyone think taking more of these is prudent? What about CoQ10? I haven't seen much mention of it in these forums. I have read LifeMirage's post on Idebenone but AORSupport's argument that it increases free radicals has convinced me to give it a pass. Do any of you who take Ortho-Core (or any other quality multi-vitamin) take additional Vitamin C? I take about 6 times as much as what is listed in the ingredient list. My main interest is brain health and I see that Ortho-Mind gets some praise in this area. I am taking the Get Smart formula. Am I correct that combining the two would be of little benefit and possibly harmful because of the repetition of Huperzine and Vinpocetine? Are there strong arguments to be made for one over the other?

Any other supplements recommended for cognitive functioning or just general health?

I am a 33 year old male.

I know it's a lot of questions. There's a lot of information to sort through! Any help is appreciated.

Thank you,

Isaiah

[Matt]

Well you probably already know this but the only way proven or likely to slow aging is Calorie Restriction. Even Restricting by 20% would give great benifits..

[rfarris]

The reason Ortho-Core is called "Ortho-Core" is because it is supposed to be the "core" or fundament of your supplementation. They made it that way so that you could tailor it for your own requirements. If you think you need more E, then you should add it. It has an adequate quantity of vitamin E for me, but I do need more B12. I prefer to take the methylcobalamine form of B12 instead of cyanocobalamine, so that's what I take. If you want more B12 and prefer cyanocobalamin, you can add that. Likewise with the benfotiamine form of B1.

The problem with the "kitchen sink" multis is that they may include more of some things than you need, and less of some things than you do, or even more likely, a different form than you would like to take. (See a recent discussion about magnesium.)

Your choice of Ortho-Core is excellent. Now round it out with the other things you need.

Incidentally, I also take Ortho-Mind, and I had already invested in a significant amount of vinpocetine, hup-a, etc. As you suggested, it might not be a good idea to take double amounts of them. What I'm doing is taking my old brain supps on odd-days and Ortho-Mind on even-days, until I use up the old stock.

[ajnast4r]

ortho-core
+
2-3 grams vitamin C(50% buffered, 50% raw)
500mg calcium/250mg magnesium
1g epa/dha or 10g ala
1mg methylcobalamin (better form of b12)
probiotic

and youre set

the vitamin E in ortho-core is all 8 isomers, only alpha tocpherol is listed in UI... the rest are listed in MG. it has plenty of total vitamin E, theres no need to take any more

i personally dont see any reason to take CoQ10 at 33, unless you are tackles known health issues... especially since its so expensive for good quality stuff

nordic naturals is great fishoil, by far one if not thee purest fishoil being produced today. stick with it.

dont forget non-pill essentials like: good sleep, exercise, & meditation

[kevink]

I think the Nordic Naturals "EPA" is a better formulation than the "Ultimate Omega".

You might also want to look at Country Lifes "Omega 3 Mood" although I have not seen a CoA for the product. However, it is half the price of the Nordic Naturals "EPA" product. Price is not a really great criteria most of the time, but the manufacturer "claims" of the purity suggests that it's a really pure product. I've been meaning to try and get the CoA.

[isaiah]

Thank you to all for the replies. I have a couple more questions.

I have a container of ascorbic acid that I mix in juice once a day. In a post, scottl, recommends not taking ascorbic acid, but using an ascorbate instead. What are the benefits in using one over the other? Is it more economical or better for the body to take a magnesium or calcium ascorbate, or should I buy them separately? What benefits will I gain from supplementing my diet with calcium and magnesium?

Can anyone recommend a probiotic?

Surely 1mg of methylcobalamin is an error. Would 500mg be too much?

kevink, if you ever get a CoA for Country Life and are satisfied please post. I'm certainly interested in using a cheaper product when quality remains a constant. I take it you agree with the argument on AOR's page that EPA is the more important acid and that DHA may have detrimental effects?

Are there any concerns regarding suppliers I need to be aware of with the B12, magnesium, and calcium? Is buying the generic product at the health food store fine?

[rfarris]

Not only would 500mg of methylcobalamin be too much, it would be incredibly expensive, every day. Usually methylcobalamin is measured in micrograms (mcg), and 250mcg - 500 mcg used to be the typical amount. Lately 1mg (1000mcg), 5mg, and even 15mg have become available.

As far as "generic products at the health food store," well, it all depends on the product and the health food store. Ascorbic acid (vit C) would be difficult to go wrong with, but on the other hand, some of the exotic products -- like R-ALA -- can be iffy. I don't think you'll even find methylcobalamin in most health-food stores.

Your comment "I'm certainly interested in using a cheaper product when quality remains a constant," can sometimes work, but it requires a great amount of knowledge in order to be able to tell whether "quality remains a constant." How would you know?

[kevink]

kevink, if you ever get a CoA for Country Life and are satisfied please post. I'm certainly interested in using a cheaper product when quality remains a constant. I take it you agree with the argument on AOR's page that EPA is the more important acid and that DHA may have detrimental effects?

No problem. I switched to it myself on "reasonable assumption" given the situation and description - but I have wanted to do my background check on the product just to be sure. I agree with those that express a desire to have the contaminant levels at PPB instead of PPM since the possible contaminants are really toxic (mercury, PCBs, etc).

Uhmmm - I think AOR's breakdown was a good one, but what had already sold me on the EPA aspect were the recent studies on school children in England where an only EPA based regimen had "problem" children performing much better (concentration, mood, cognitive ability) and follow up experiments where "well performing" children also gained substantial improvements when put on the EPA protocol. I think it's still early in the game and I'll change my position in a heartbeat if new data comes out - but it would seem that adding in DHA past the age of 3(?) is not only a waste of time, but also harms the impact of the EPA result. I look for a 4:1 or 5:1 EPA:DHA ratio.

[Shepard]

I was under the impression that EPA was found to be best for the mind...general wellness...all that, and DHA was what was best for the heart.

[scottl]

I use and recommend 100% ascorbate (e..g calcium and or magneiusm not ascorbic acid) because it is gentler on the body and if I'm taking 10-30g/day when I'm sick, no way I want that much acid in my system (not to mention stomach irritation). There are other reasons e.g. pH issues (see metabolic typing info in previous posts).

I'd add a B25 (I found one at home...perhaps by country life) or B-50. Yes I know this goes again the philosophy of its creater (sorry if you're reading this).

Yes I take a total of about 800 IU give or take of mixed tocopherols. but I'm 45. At your age what's in the supp or perhaps better a good 400 IU mixed tocopherols (search board e.g. the one duke nukem is taking think it was thorne).

30 mg co-Q-10 is probably a good idea (don't get powder in a cap, get e.g. one in gelcap with oil or one of the zillion more absorbable forms)

--calcium/magnesium sure

--flora? Well I need it, but not sure everyone does. If you have "gut issues" (and you know if you do) them by all means, take flora. If not, I'm not sure I'd bother at your age and without evidense of need. IF you do need, get the stuff by...dang forget what metagenics sell to the public under (ajnast4r can tell you).

---EPA/DHA? I'm behind on this issue, so I defer to others on which to take (do take .5-1g of one or mixture)

--it looks like there is no ALA/r-ala.etc in ortho core, so I'd take some small amount of lipoic acid/day e.g. 50 mg twice a day. Personally at your age I'm not sure I'd even bother with anything other then regular ala, but by all means, get R-ala, KR-ala etc as budget allows.

NB: my knowledge/bias is on supps for health promotion where I have the most experience. I defer to others on nootropics.

[kevink]

As for EPA/DHA - I just came across this summary...

Oxford-Durham Study

The first research trials in the area of omega-3 oils and childhood developmental/ behavioral
disorders focused on using DHA as the intervention of choice. The basis for this approach
stemmed from evidence demonstrating efficacy of DHA in newborn infants for visual and hearing
acuity, as well as mental development. These trials however failed to demonstrate significant
efficacy from intervention with DHA.

Upon learning of the efficacy achieved with EPA in adult depression and schizophrenia, interest
surfaced in reexamining childhood developmental and behavioral disorders using EPA as the
principal active constituent. The results achieved in the one human intervention trial conducted
thus far using such an approach are tremendously encouraging. This trial was published in May
of 2005. A summary of the study appears below (Richardson 2005);

A randomized, controlled trial of dietary supplementation with omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids,
compared with placebo, was conducted with 117 children with developmental coordination
disorder (DCD). The children were 5-12 years of age. Treatment for 3 months in parallel groups
was followed by a 1-way crossover from placebo to active treatment for an additional 3 months.
(Half the children received omega-3 oils, and the other half received placebo for 3 months.

Thereafter, the half that were receiving placebo were switched to omega-3 oils, while the other
half remained on omega-3 oils). 558mg EPA, 174mg DHA were delivered per day.
No effect of treatment on motor skills was apparent, but significant improvements for active
treatment versus placebo were found in reading, spelling, and behavior over 3 months of
treatment in parallel groups.

After the crossover, similar changes were seen in the placebo-active
group, whereas children continuing with active treatment maintained or improved their progress.
32 children were determined to have ADHD at enrollment. 16 were in the treatment group, 16 in
the placebo group. After 3 months, 7 of the 16 children in the treatment group no longer met the
criteria for ADHD. 1 of the 16 children in the placebo group no longer met the criteria for ADHD.
This study demonstrates impressive efficacy of EPA rich omega-3 oil for the treatment of
childhood developmental/ behavioral disorders. It directly contrasts the lack of efficacy produced
by very high DHA omega-3 oils produced in four trials conducted previous to this trial.

Reference:
Richardson AJ, Montgomery P. The Oxford-Durham study: a randomized, controlled trial of
dietary supplementation with fatty acids in children with developmental coordination disorder.
Pediatrics. 2005 May;115(5):1360-6.

[DukeNukem]

Another great vit. C is ascorbyl palmitate, a fat soluable form (verses the water soluble forms most often taken). I take approx. 8 grams of vit. C daily, half of it as ascorbyl palmitate. I also take a gram of citrus bioflavonoids daily.

If you're looking for life extension, I'd take these:

o S.O.D. -- GliSODin is best
o Resveratrol -- Longevinex brand is best
o Olive polyphenols -- Olivenol is a great brand
o Cinnamon powder -- 2-3 grams daily
o Fish oil -- LEF brand is easily the best
o Turmeric -- one gram daily
o Green/white tea -- New Chapter is best supplement
o Blueberry -- LEF just came out with the best supplement
o Mixed Tocotrenols -- LEF has great product
o N.A.C. -- 2 grams daily

[scottl]

Another great vit. C is ascorbyl palmitate, a fat soluable form (verses the water soluble forms most often taken).  I take approx. 8 grams of vit. C daily, half of it as ascorbyl palmitate.  I also take a gram of citrus bioflavonoids daily.  If you're looking for life extension, I'd take these:

o  S.O.D. -- GliSODin is best
o  Resveratrol -- Longevinex brand is best
o  Olive polyphenols -- Olivenol is a great brand
o  Cinnamon powder -- 2-3 grams daily
o  Fish oil -- LEF brand is easily the best
o  Turmeric -- one gram daily
o  Green/white tea -- New Chapter is best supplement
o  Blueberry -- LEF just came out with the best supplement
o  Mixed Tocotrenols -- LEF has great product
o  N.A.C. -- 2 grams daily

"I take approx. 8 grams of vit. C daily, half of it as ascorbyl palmitate. "

Why? Is there any evidence that the man made fat soluable form does anything in humans?

I would certainly agree with Duke if you wish a comprehensive supp regiment, however:

"o N.A.C. -- 2 grams daily"???

Possibly not for any healthy person routinely, and certainly not for a 32 year old. Please search the avant board for a discussion along these lines. Search NAC posted by Loki.

[ajnast4r]

4 grams daily is way toomuch ascorbyl palmitate...there are much much more effective fat soluble antioxidents. e-complex & astaxanthin being 2...

[DukeNukem]

N.A.C. is exceptional at increasing glutathione levels, perhaps the body's most potent and versatile anti-oxidant. Hence its importance.

As for the vit. C, I take it constantly throughout the day mixed in my drinks. Vit. C has a short half-life within the body, about 30-40 minutes, so to keep levels optimal throughout the day it needs to be taken often. Vit. C has benefits too numerous to list, but one I'm most interested in is its ability to clean plaque from the arteries. It also kills rogue cancer cells very effectively, in fact much recent research is bearing this out even within the slow-to-accept medical community. Practically no one takes too much vit. C, while 99.99999% of us take far too little.

there are much much more effective fat soluble antioxidents. e-complex & astaxanthin being 2...

While there are other fat soluble anti-oxidants, they may not have the specific benefits of each other. I therefore take astaxanthin and the 8 E vitamins, too. And many others.

[scottl]

N.A.C. is exceptional at increasing glutathione levels, perhaps the body's most potent and versatile anti-oxidant.  Hence its importance.

As for the vit. C, I take it constantly throughout the day mixed in my drinks.  Vit. C has a short half-life within the body, about 30-40 minutes, so to keep levels optimal throughout the day it needs to be taken often.  Vit. C has benefits too numerous to list, but one I'm most interested in is its ability to clean plaque from the arteries.  It also kills rogue cancer cells very effectively, in fact much recent research is bearing this out even within the slow-to-accept medical community.  Practically no one takes too much vit. C, while 99.99999% of us take far too little.


While there are other fat soluble anti-oxidants, they may not have the specific benefits of each other.  I therefore take astaxanthin and the 8 E vitamins, too.  And many others.

"N.A.C. is exceptional at increasing glutathione levels, perhaps the body's most potent and versatile anti-oxidant. Hence its importance."

Ya so does vitamin C. My point is not that it is not important, but that one can have too much antioxidants in one's system.

As far as the vitamin C, my comments were directed strictly to the xenobiotic ascorbityl palmitate which does not exist in nature. What evidence is there that ASCORBITYL PALMITATE does anything in people?

[Shepard]

Scott, I have read most of the threads on Avant regarding NAC, and my understanding was that 1-2 grams per day was the nominal range for the average active person. Of course, that might not take into account the other antioxidants most of us take, so are you saying that NAC should be limited because of that fact, or have you read something that says it should be limited regardless?


I personally take two time released 600mg capsules, along with the small amount that is in Ortho-Core.

[tham]

Source Natural's B-coenzyme product might be
a good addition. I've noted that most top-flight
expensive multis appear to have overlooked to provide
the B vitamins as their far more transportable and versatile
coenzyme forms.

http://www.betterlif...sp?prod_id=6277

[ajnast4r]

if you take vitamin C complexed with bioflavanoids & some rose hips... the half life is greatly extended... just so you know.

scottL: ive been looking at pioneers vitamin-C complex, which appears to be probably the best C complex i found so far... but it is 1.5% ascorbyl palmitate. im really iffy about putting any of that stuff into my body

[scottl]

Scott, I have read most of the threads on Avant regarding NAC, and my understanding was that 1-2 grams per day was the nominal range for the average active person. Of course, that might not take into account the other antioxidants most of us take, so are you saying that NAC should be limited because of that fact, or have you read something that says it should be limited regardless?


I personally take two time released 600mg capsules, along with the small amount that is in Ortho-Core.

You must be reading San literature. Here is the thread:

http://forum.avantla...ic=16677&hl=nac

Although I misremembered the dose and they are talking about doses greater then 2 grams. Still remember it is possible to get too much antioxidants (probably an inverted U shape curve i.e. too much antioxidants are as bad as too few) and I do not know that one needs such high doses if you're say in your 30s. 600 mg twice a day plus the 200 mg in ortho core is probably the most I'd take.

[DukeNukem]

Has anyone read anything negative about ascorbyl palmitate? LEF and my longevity doc both recommend it.

Here's the LEF product description:

Ascorbyl palmitate is a fat (lipid) soluble form of vitamin C that can reach tissue areas ascorbic acid cannot.1 Even though this form is purely synthetic and is not found in nature, it has been shown to be beneficial for protecting the lipid areas of the body from peroxidation.50-56* Technically, the ascorbic acid “part” of ascorbyl palmitate is only 42% of the total weight. Since ascorbyl palmitate and ascorbic acid work in entirely separate areas of the body, however, the concentration of ascorbic acid by weight has little relevance to the benefits of ascorbyl palmitate, and therefore has not been included in the product contents description.

[ajnast4r]

Has anyone read anything negative about ascorbyl palmitate?  LEF and my longevity doc both recommend it.

Here's the LEF product description:

Ascorbyl palmitate(and any other xenibiotic) inhibits cytochrome P450, or atleast uses it up. unless im reading this wrong? no thanks to that

http://www.ncbi.nlm....5&dopt=Citation

[Pablo M]

I'm cutting back my previously wide-ranging supp regimen, as I'm 21 and I don't really know how much benefit all those things are to me. My current regimen:
• OrthoCore: 4-9 caps daily
• Vitamin C: 2-4 grams
• Folic acid: extra 1mg per day. Folic acid is very cheap (bottle of 180 tabs cost me around 3 bucks) and very nontoxic, while homocysteine is very toxic. I think I was deficient anyway-- cracking skin at the sides of my lips.
• Green tea: I drink organic Japanese sencha and matcha throughout the day. Anti-cancer, prevents LDL oxidation, tastes great.
• DIET. As Matt mentioned, CR is the only proven way to fight aging. I eat a high nutrient density diet, lots of leafy green veggies and berries. Lean protein from chicken, turkey and eggwhites. Moderate amount of nuts for monounsaturated fats. As many kalamata olives as I can afford.

[hallucinogen]

Ortho-Core has the most disgusting sewage smell ever (I bet it due to Chlorella) , and if I take it on empty stomach or with little food, especially if it gets stuck in my throat half-way, it gives the worst heartburn and upset stomach ever for a while:p So I have to eat some bread after I take it or something solid:p
It's a bitch to take down, argh.
But I guess it works pretty well, well-being wise.

I Bid everyone to try a heaping teaspoon of GABA!

[syr_]

Ortho-Core has the most disgusting sewage smell ever (I bet it due to Chlorella)

Chlorella has almost no smell. The taste is like green grass/algae.
Must be something else, anyway 9 caps a day is way too much for me. I wonder why they dropped the powder mix.

[Athanasios]

Has anyone read anything negative about ascorbyl palmitate?  LEF and my longevity doc both recommend it.

Here's the LEF product description:

Ascorbyl palmitate(and any other xenibiotic) inhibits cytochrome P450, or atleast uses it up. unless im reading this wrong? no thanks to that

http://www.ncbi.nlm....5&dopt=Citation

At the end of the linked abstract it says "Ascorbyl palmitate did not inhibit CYP3A4 activity in vivo" FWIW