Deprenyl advices
#61
Posted 10 May 2006 - 03:40 AM
What's love got to do, got to do with it?
What's love, but a second hand emotion?
...
Who needs a heart, when a heart can be broken?
Ike Turner, her husband, is probably more famous for being an abusive husband than an R&B star. I don't think he was taking any deprenyl.
Here's some background
http://www.allclassi...11:yyfozfiheh2k
Peace.
#62 Guest_da_sense_*
Posted 10 May 2006 - 03:56 PM
Funk is kidding with you, sense. Are you unfamiliar with Tina Turner?
What's love got to do, got to do with it?
What's love, but a second hand emotion?
...
Who needs a heart, when a heart can be broken?
Ike Turner, her husband, is probably more famous for being an abusive husband than an R&B star. I don't think he was taking any deprenyl.
Here's some background
http://www.allclassi...11:yyfozfiheh2k
Peace.
Well I watched some documentary while ago, i know what happened
i though Funky was refering to the fight i was suposed to have last weekend (kung fu free fight competition)
#63
Posted 10 May 2006 - 07:16 PM
#64
Posted 13 May 2006 - 05:12 PM
#65 Guest_da_sense_*
Posted 13 May 2006 - 07:18 PM
deprenyl [/b] has a neuroprotective action on DA but does it in anyway promote neurogenesis, or create any sort of LTP (long term pontentiation) to certain parts of your brain over a period of time? Im using the term LTP lightly for I dont know its exact mode of action, but hoping a sense of what im saying may be expressed through using it [thumb]
From my experience bupropion could create anxiety if used with deprenyl. Dose and individual dependant of course.
AFAIK deprenyl doesn't promote neurogenesis or "LTP" of certain parts of brain, it works while you're taking it. But if it helps you change your life to better, then probably you could call that LTP...
#66
Posted 13 May 2006 - 08:16 PM
#67 Guest_da_sense_*
Posted 13 May 2006 - 11:01 PM
On the other hand, i don't see a reason why to use both of these. They work in different ways, but their end effect is very similar. kottke if i was you i'd use one at a time. Specially since bupropion is meant to be used short term, while deprenyl can be used long term.
#68
Posted 13 May 2006 - 11:32 PM
I also havent found any conclusive evidence that Wellbutrin has any act on neurogenesis. Only SSRIs, Tianeptine, or similiar structured anti-depressents have that effect. I havent really found any evidence of much dopamine neurogenesis at all actually...which kinda sucks, but the best you can do is just protect the ones you have left i guess. Deprenyl seems the choice for me. Im going to order some when i get back from Europe, and hell if i have access ill get some while im there.
Thanks for the info da sense
#69 Guest_da_sense_*
Posted 14 May 2006 - 08:50 AM
Although few have reported being anxious on deprenyl, most of the consumers have positive feedback on it, so i'd say deprenyl is a better overall choice than bupropion. Plus is has antiaging properties which bupropion doesn't.
Also you might want to consider Tianeptine, it's very expensive as there are no generics but it has some unique properties.
#70
Posted 14 May 2006 - 08:16 PM
#71 Guest_da_sense_*
Posted 15 May 2006 - 07:20 AM
#72
Posted 15 May 2006 - 02:03 PM
Does anyone know the difference in mechanics between bupropion hydrochloride (wellbutrin) and deprenyl.
Wellbutrin blocks the reuptake of norepinephrine more strongly than dopamine (most people don't realize NA is wellbutrin's primary target), while deprenyl reduces MAO-B, boosts PEA levels dramatically and generally "enhances catecholamine transmission", so you are really comparing apples to oranges with these two.
#73
Posted 16 May 2006 - 08:11 PM
#74
Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:43 AM
---This is at 5mg per day in the morning--
#75
Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:49 AM
2. One day and the next day feel one way...how about tomorrow or the next day?
3. You look stoned in your photo. Are you smoking lots of weed?
#76
Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:51 AM
I heard about Tianeptine and have read on it a good amount. I think i am going to check it out here in a little while (when i have the cash) for a month or 2, to get kind of a repairative effect. I could never afford it longterm, but from what ive read it can have a permanent restorative effect after shorterm use. Would you agree?
I've read all kinds of anecdotes on the web about people taking Tianeptine thinking they are going to grow new brain cells or something...which is quite unscientific to assume...unless one happens to be clinically depressed there is no one slice of data suggesting this might occur.
#77
Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:11 AM
1. Watch out for placebo effect.
2. One day and the next day feel one way...how about tomorrow or the next day?
3. You look stoned in your photo. Are you smoking lots of weed?
1.An effect thats near bupropion is definanlty not perceived as placebo in my eyes. Ive now felt them both, and its not the norm. Or it is the norm trancending from my previous form....outside there really is a loud storm (seriously, and it rhymes..i can also hear the wind chimes, aww shit son).
2. You're definantly right about #2....and that is all
3. I did actually happen to be a little tipsy (but not high) when that picture was taken, and NO im not smoking weed anymore and havent for 3months, and I havent consistantly 6 months before that . But i love to laugh hahahahahahahahah
#78
Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:32 AM
I heard about Tianeptine and have read on it a good amount. I think i am going to check it out here in a little while (when i have the cash) for a month or 2, to get kind of a repairative effect. I could never afford it longterm, but from what ive read it can have a permanent restorative effect after shorterm use. Would you agree?
I've read all kinds of anecdotes on the web about people taking Tianeptine thinking they are going to grow new brain cells or something...which is quite unscientific to assume...unless one happens to be clinically depressed there is no one slice of data suggesting this might occur.
Ive done MDMA 3 times, LSD at least 5 times, and shrooms at least 2-3 times. These were in a very short timespan mind you. I did LSD, MDMA, and Cocaine all from the age of 17-19 (did acid once when i was 16) and smoked alot of weed and drank alcohol during this time. Not to mention that deep concusion i received to my left prefrontal cortex (believe me that causes identity problems).I think i may be a canidate for clinical depression....
Though i must say ive done alot better then most at keeping my mind sane during all this. Most people would be on multiple antidepressants with an added dose of zyprexa to spice things up. God has blessed me with a sound enough mind to overcome my mistakes and help people along the way with the knowledge i have gained. I am certain with the right supplements and mindset i will almost fully repair myself in the next few years. Im still young and my mind is still growing/changing so i have alot of time to undo the deeds.
I beleive when i have the funds Tianeptine WILL repair some damage if i use it for 6 months or more and probably even less.
*The whole speil i previously wrote wasnt really neccesary, but its 430 and i feel euphoric. (im not crazy)
#79 Guest_da_sense_*
Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:36 AM
I heard about Tianeptine and have read on it a good amount. I think i am going to check it out here in a little while (when i have the cash) for a month or 2, to get kind of a repairative effect. I could never afford it longterm, but from what ive read it can have a permanent restorative effect after shorterm use. Would you agree?
I've read all kinds of anecdotes on the web about people taking Tianeptine thinking they are going to grow new brain cells or something...which is quite unscientific to assume...unless one happens to be clinically depressed there is no one slice of data suggesting this might occur.
Simply because no studies were done. But there's a reason to ASSUME it could work in healthly people too...
#80 Guest_da_sense_*
Posted 12 June 2006 - 08:39 AM
Have you considered hydergine? It's much cheaper than tianeptine and could be helpfull in your case? If you wish i can send you a free box to try it?
#81
Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:34 PM
PS- That dep works great, but it kept me up till 7 this morning!. Definanlty need to cut the does in half
#82
Posted 13 June 2006 - 12:33 AM
Simply because no studies were done. But there's a reason to ASSUME it could work in healthly people too...
Tianeptine is an SSRE type anti depressant compound that was never approved by FDA to the best of my knowledge. That does not mean it is ineffective; it just infers it might not do "enough" to impress FDA.
An otherwise healthy individual who might be considering a pharmaceutical drug to induce neurogenesis or improvements in neuroplasticity should be aware such activity can in fact be quite dangerous; and that such benefits have never been demonstrated in a single human trial in healthy subjects.
Eur Neuropsychopharmacol. 2004 Dec;14 Suppl 5:S511-21.
From restoration of neuroplasticity to the treatment of depression: clinical experience.
Costa e Silva JA.
School of Medicine, Department of Psychiatry, State University of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
The adult brain has more plasticity than previously believed. Neurogenesis, growth and branching of dendrites, and remodeling of synaptic contacts in different regions of the brain occur continuously. Numerous studies have reported a decrease in neuroplasticity in depressed patients and/or in animals subjected to stress and to different models of depression. This has led to the proposal of a new approach to the pathophysiology of depression: depression could be the result of the decrease in neuroplasticity in brain structures involved in the control of mood. This new approach to the pathophysiology of depression can lead to better understanding of, or the proposal of more solid hypotheses about, some issues such as the impact of genetics and environmental factors on the occurrence of depressive episodes, the increased risk of depression in patients with somatic diseases in which there are alterations of neuroplasticity, or the increased risk of depressive relapse in depressed patients in partial remission in whom we suspect that neuroplasticity is only partially restored. These observations have also led to the proposal of new hypotheses concerning the mode of action of antidepressant drugs. In this regard, tianeptine is of particular interest. Tianeptine's pharmacological and clinical properties have been extensively studied. Tianeptine has specific neurotrophic properties, and its antidepressant properties have been well demonstrated. Tianeptine provides early relief of anxious symptoms without sedation in depressed patients. The acceptability and safety profiles of tianeptine are appreciated by both physicians and patients; for instance, tianeptine does not induce sexual dysfunction, nausea, or weight gain. It is of interest to focus on what we already know about tianeptine's pharmacological and clinical properties, and to create mechanistic hypotheses about the similarities and differences observed in clinical practice between tianeptine and other antidepressants.
Publication Types:
* Review
PMID: 15550350 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Depressed humans and animals (see underlined text above) seem to have decreased neuroplasticity or have incurred cerebral atrophy; therefore they have an entirely different neural network than an otherwise healthy patient. It is hypothesized (ie unproven) that tianeptine's pharmacological and clinical properties can induce improvements in neuroplasticity in depressed, aged, or "stressed" populations. To assume such benefits could be conferred upon a healthy population is not based on any evidence.
Peace.
#83 Guest_da_sense_*
Posted 13 June 2006 - 02:47 PM
No, i havent considered hydergine, but ill gladly except you're gift, thank you. My shipping information should be in you're records from me ordering the selegiline. If not just PM and ill give you the info you need. Do think it would be as beneficial as say GPC choline, or ALCAR?
PS- That dep works great, but it kept me up till 7 this morning!. Definanlty need to cut the does in half
With so many orders it's hard to guess the right one, PM address
AGPC, ALCAR and other nootropics work differently than hydergine. Most of them are good while you take them, while hydergine supposedly makes permanent changes (positive ones). I know that lot of people with head injuries reported great effects with hydergine, some even cured migraines (thouh in some rare cases hydergine can make migraines worse, in this case stop hydergine).
#84
Posted 13 June 2006 - 08:35 PM
"Depressed humans and animals (see underlined text above) seem to have decreased neuroplasticity or have incurred cerebral atrophy; therefore they have an entirely different neural network than an otherwise healthy patient. It is hypothesized (ie unproven) that tianeptine's pharmacological and clinical properties can induce Soimprovements in neuroplasticity in depressed, aged, or "stressed" populations."
So would the effect of taking Tianeptine be kinda like poping the top off a soda so to speak? Once it begins neurogenesis and then i stop the drug would it continue to work correctly? I honestly beleive most of my symptoms are drug induced .I have no real signs of deep depression in my family and for the most part quite the opposite.
And to go even deeper, couldnt the reason for expereincing depression also be because you're brain has set up a sort of safe guard system limiting the activation of the damaged neurons so that they may repair themselves? And taking steps to blunt your brain could be even more beneficial for a span of time.
#85
Posted 13 June 2006 - 09:11 PM
DSM IV criteria is, to be precise:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_DocSum[/url]
Eur Neuropsychopharmacol. 2004 Dec;14 Suppl 5:S497-502.
Molecular mechanisms of neuroplasticity and pharmacological implications: the example of tianeptine.
McEwen BS, Chattarji S.
Harold and Margaret Milliken Hatch-Laboratory of Neuroendocrinology Rockefeller University, New York, NY 10021, USA. mcewen@mail.rockefeller.edu
The hippocampal formation, which expresses high levels of adrenal steroid receptors, is a malleable brain structure that is important for certain types of learning and memory. This structure is also vulnerable to the effects of stress hormones which have been reported to be increased in depressed patients, particularly those with severe depression. The amygdala, a structure that plays a critical role in fear learning, is also an important target of anxiety and stress. Certain animal models of depression involve application of repeated stress. Repeated stress promotes behavioral changes that can be associated with these two brain structures such as impairment of hippocampus-dependent memory and enhancement of fear and aggression, which are likely to reflect amygdala function. At a cellular level, opposite responses in the hippocampus and amygdala are observed, namely, shrinkage of dendrites in hippocampus and growth of dendrites in the lateral amygdala, involving in both cases a remodeling of dendrites. Furthermore, stress-induced suppression of neurogenesis has been noted in dentate gyrus. At a molecular level, the effects of repeated stress in the hippocampus involve excitatory amino acids and the induction of the glial form of the glutamate transporter. Chronic treatment with the antidepressant tianeptine may prevent these effects in hippocampus and amygdala.
Publication Types:
* Review
PMID: 15550348 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_DocSumEur Psychiatry. 2002 Jul;17 Suppl 3:318-30.
Structural plasticity and tianeptine: cellular and molecular targets.
McEwen BS, Magarinos AM, Reagan LP.
Harold and Margaret Milliken Hatch Laboratory of Neuroendocrinology, The Rockefeller University, New York, NY 10021, USA. mcewen@rockvax.rockefeller.edu
The hippocampal formation, a structure involved in declarative, spatial and contextual memory, undergoes atrophy in depressive illness along with impairment in cognitive function. Animal model studies have shown that the hippocampus is a particularly sensitive and vulnerable brain region that responds to stress and stress hormones. Studies on models of stress and glucocorticoid actions reveal that the hippocampus shows a considerable degree of structural plasticity in the adult brain. Stress suppresses neurogenesis of dentate gyrus granule neurons, and repeated stress causes remodeling of dendrites in the CA3 region, a region that is particularly important in memory processing. Both forms of structural remodeling of the hippocampus are mediated by adrenal steroids working in concert with excitatory amino acids (EAA) and N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors. EAA and NMDA receptors are also involved in neuronal death that is caused in pyramidal neurons by seizures, head trauma, and ischemia, and alterations of calcium homeostasis that accompany age-related cognitive impairment. Tianeptine (tianeptine) is an effective antidepressant that prevents and even reverses the actions of stress and glucocorticoids on dendritic remodeling in an animal model of chronic stress. Multiple neurotransmitter systems contribute to dendritic remodeling, including EAA, serotonin, and gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), working synergistically with glucocorticoids. This review summarizes findings on neurochemical targets of adrenal steroid actions that may explain their role in the remodeling process. In studying these actions, we hope to better understand the molecular and cellular targets of action of tianeptine in relation to its role in influencing structural plasticity of the hippocampus.
Publication Types:
* Review
PMID: 15177088 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsumJ Psychiatry Neurosci. 2006 Mar;31(2):84-92.
Antidepressant effects of exercise: evidence for an adult-neurogenesis hypothesis?
Ernst C, Olson AK, Pinel JP, Lam RW, Christie BR.
Neuroscience Program, UBC Hospital, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, BC.
It has been hypothesized that a decrease in the synthesis of new neurons in the adult hippocampus might be linked to major depressive disorder (MDD). This hypothesis arose after it was discovered that antidepressant medications increased the synthesis of new neurons in the brain, and it was noted that the therapeutic effects of antidepressants occurred over a time span that approximates the time taken for the new neurons to become functional. Like antidepressants, exercise also increases the synthesis of new neurons in the adult brain: a 2-3-fold increase in hippocampal neurogenesis has been observed in rats with regular access to a running wheel when they are compared with control animals. We hypothesized, based on the adult-neurogenesis hypothesis of MDD, that exercise should alleviate the symptoms of MDD and that potential mechanisms should exist to explain this therapeutic effect. Accordingly, we evaluated studies that suggest that exercise is an effective treatment for MDD, and we explored potential mechanisms that could link adult neurogenesis, exercise and MDD. We conclude that there is evidence to support the hypothesis that exercise alleviates MDD and that several mechanisms exist that could mediate this effect through adult neurogenesis.
Publication Types:
* Review
#86
Posted 13 June 2006 - 11:26 PM
Longterm use of deprenyl (i.e 3months or so) at 2.5mgs a day would be safer than longterm use of bupropion at the age of 21 for depression, wouldnt you think? I know we dont know the longterm effects of either really, but i think that would be a safe conclusion.
Edited by kottke, 13 June 2006 - 11:49 PM.
#87
Posted 14 June 2006 - 12:23 AM
I requested a prescription for all of the "prescription" cognitive enhancers I currently take. I print out the relevant Pubmed abstracts for the drugs I want (or sometimes the whole PDF) and bring them in to the session. I say: "this is what I want..." My experience across multiple doctors is real enthusiasm.
Most MDs don't have patients who bring in Pubmed abstracts and asking for cognitive enhancers...they seem to enjoy enthusiasm for their field ...
You should try it.
Edited by nootropikamil, 14 June 2006 - 12:34 AM.
#88
Posted 14 June 2006 - 12:45 AM
#89
Posted 14 June 2006 - 01:20 AM
kottke; anyone: please kick my ass out of this forum and tell me to go do my homework if you see me here posting more than once or twice a day, okay? My life is getting pretty sad.
You can afford a psychiatrist if you can afford all these other comounds. Do you have medical insurance? If you do not, ask your family members to help you get an appointment. Going on line and reading Internet forums for medical advice is very inefficient. These fora are perfect for talking about supplements; but when it comes down to mind altering substances to enhance cognitive performance, that's an entirely different story. We can tell you what we think might work; but there are LOTS more important variables that can come into play. Side effects come to mind...
Do you live in the USA? How old are you?
Edited by nootropikamil, 14 June 2006 - 01:30 AM.
#90 Guest_da_sense_*
Posted 15 June 2006 - 10:40 AM
Alot of info there kamil. Good stuff.
Longterm use of deprenyl (i.e 3months or so) at 2.5mgs a day would be safer than longterm use of bupropion at the age of 21 for depression, wouldnt you think? I know we dont know the longterm effects of either really, but i think that would be a safe conclusion.
It depends what kind of depression you have and what is source of it. In short words: Deprenyl - motivation, Bupropion - stimulation. Deprenyl has been around since 60ties when it was originally used as antidepressant.
I'm sure in years to come there will be much more studies on emsam (selegiline patch) so we will learn more about this great drug
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