42 replies to this topic

[manofsan]

Here's an article:

http://www.reuters.c...50&section=news

Some kid has no myostatin gene, and suffers from big muscles

I'd imagine that the athletic industry would exploit this once they figure out how

[rahein]

but where is the big penis gene?

They found that too a few months ago. It is linked to the same gene as hair growth. They inserted multiple copies of the gene in a mouse and it grew extra whiskers, had hair on the pads of its feet, and it genitals where enormous. I thought I read this on BetterHumans, but I can find it. If I get more time today I will provide a link.


About the actual topic. I do not think it will take supplement companies long to find something that will bind to myostatin's active site rendering it useless. This might be the next big thing in BBing.

I think the kid was called "Little Hercules" and was on the Howard Stern show a while ago. He looked like a 25 year old bodybuilder in a 10 year olds body.

[Kalepha]

Rahein, I know this is nitpicking, but I’m gonna anyway…

I don’t think the article to which manofsan linked is referring to Richard Sandrak, who is now 12. And although his athletic achievements are extremely impressive for his age, deeming him proportional to *good* 25 year old bodybuilders is an outrageous exaggeration. Richard doesn’t come close.

[Kalepha]

Harold, wasn't the evolutionary advantage to store fat in seasonal times of famine?

[manofsan]

Researchers have developed and tested a myostatin antibody:

http://www.betterhum...03/Default.aspx

Pretty impressive-sounding results. Gee, I wonder if this will become the new steroids. I also wonder if this result could have been achieved more easily with RNAi. This antibody seems to be a small molecule analog.

[manofsan]

Acceleron has developed a myostatin antibody drug called ACE-031, which blocks the activity of myostatin:

http://www.technolog.../Biotech/19589/

undt ve get austrian accents too, ja?

[caston]

Here is their website:

http://www.acceleronpharma.com/

It appears they are privately held so no exciting stock surge to show you!

[dannov]

I'm skeptical, I've heard that a manufacturable drug for humans is years off.

[curious_sle]

Makes me wonder... is all this Myozap/CSP3 stuff fake crap for the gullible? I for one would require inordinate amounts of training to reach any decent level of skeletal muscle and would thus kinda like a targeted supplement that has a fraction of ACE-031's effect.

[Mind]

I would use something like ACE-031 too, as long as it was safe. I would tend to think this type of thing would help keep aging people (frail and over 60 or 70) in better shape.

I have never tried Myozap/CSP3. Anyone know if it works?

[caston]

Being muscular would sort of lose its effect though (in terms of impressing women) if 1 in every 3 guys was built like a brick dunny and the strain on food supplies would go up.. having said that bring it on

I was thinking that the cells in our body would keep dividing and we would just keep growing if there were not biological checks in place to prevent this.

Edited by caston, 21 October 2007 - 04:30 PM.

[manofsan]

More on myostatin inhibitors:

http://www.technolog.../Biotech/19623/

They must be real, if the authorities are already banning them.

[Mind]

Myostatin inhibitors present a particularly interesting case for WADA. In 2004, scientists published a paper describing an abnormally muscular German toddler who carried mutations in both copies of his myostatin gene. The boy's mother, who had been a professional athlete, was found to have one defective copy of the gene, raising questions about how to deal with athletes who have naturally occurring genetic mutations that give them benefits similar to those offered by performance-enhancing drugs. "We have ethicists thinking about those issues and guiding us in the future," says Rabin. "We need to maintain fair play for all competitors." The issue is likely to grow as advances in genomics allow scientists to uncover additional variants linked to muscle, or other factors related to athletic ability.

If sports leagues want to ban this stuff from athletes, go ahead, just don't make it illegal for the rest of us please. Like I said before, all of these new advancements have a cloud over their head mostly because of pro-sports leagues. If some supp allows a baseball player to hit a couple extra home runs...OH MY GOD!!!! I has to be banned from all of society. It is just ridiculous.

[niner]

Myostatin inhibitors present a particularly interesting case for WADA. In 2004, scientists published a paper describing an abnormally muscular German toddler who carried mutations in both copies of his myostatin gene. The boy's mother, who had been a professional athlete, was found to have one defective copy of the gene, raising questions about how to deal with athletes who have naturally occurring genetic mutations that give them benefits similar to those offered by performance-enhancing drugs. "We have ethicists thinking about those issues and guiding us in the future," says Rabin. "We need to maintain fair play for all competitors." The issue is likely to grow as advances in genomics allow scientists to uncover additional variants linked to muscle, or other factors related to athletic ability.

So if they find that some people are smarter because of a naturally occurring mutation, will they be banned from universities? If they ban all the people with good coordination and strength, maybe I'd be competitive then! Wow, never thought of it that way. Maybe we could ban overly good looking guys from hanging out in singles bars so us normal looking guys would have a better chance. We clearly need a lot more ethicists working on these problems. After all, "we need to maintain fair play for all competitors." Natural selection is so politically incorrect.

[manofsan]

As genetic engineering capabilities increase and their offerings become more tangible, then we may have to accept that market forces will come into play. If someone wants to improve their physique, their intelligence, etc, then society is going to have to allow them to. There will be supply and there will be demand -- but there will also be caveat emptor.

[macanizer]

What would happen to the heart, diaphragm, or other muscles with extended use of these blockers?

How about any side effects? Nobody seem to know of any from all the places I've searched. Don't you think that the down-regulation in the production of myostatin in the muscle stem cells could come back to bite us?

[dannov]

I'm telling you, I've been involved in discussions on BB.com with some very knowledgeable people--no pharmaceutical company is anywhere near developing myostatin-inhibitors and if pharm. companies can't, then supplement companies will NEVER be able to. Supp. companies do not have the funds nor the drive to do original research, they rely on what's already out there and capitalize.

Sides would be massive as well, including death.

[eternaltraveler]

What would happen to the heart, diaphragm, or other muscles with extended use of these blockers? 

How about any side effects?  Nobody seem to know of any from all the places I've searched.  Don't you think that the down-regulation in the production of myostatin in the muscle stem cells could come back to bite us?

These are of course very important questions, which deserve strong consideration.

There are too my knowledge 2 humans lacking functional mystatin (granted I haven't done any research on the matter lately). Hardly a significant sample, and they are both children. We have no evidence to suggest what impact myostatin blocking may have on long term health in human beings.

However, in mice with the myostatin gene knocked out there does not appear to be any obvious detrimental effect, to the cardiac muscle.1 However there is apparently a size difference between the no myostatin group and a high myostatin group, but no difference in function was noted.2

It's also very important to keep in mind that even after loads of animal testing, and a seemingly excellent understanding of pathways involved in many systems people still do die in phase one clinical trials.3 This is something to keep in mind when using substances that have only been tested on animals.

1. Neuromuscul Disord. 2007 Apr;17(4):290-6

2. J Endocrinol. 2007 Jul;194(1):63-76

3. Annals of Oncology 1:175-181, 1990

[macanizer]

What would happen to the heart, diaphragm, or other muscles with extended use of these blockers? 

How about any side effects?  Nobody seem to know of any from all the places I've searched.  Don't you think that the down-regulation in the production of myostatin in the muscle stem cells could come back to bite us?

These are of course very important questions, which deserve strong consideration.

There are too my knowledge 2 humans lacking functional mystatin (granted I haven't done any research on the matter lately). Hardly a significant sample, and they are both children. We have no evidence to suggest what impact myostatin blocking may have on long term health in human beings.

However, in mice with the myostatin gene knocked out there does not appear to be any obvious detrimental effect, to the cardiac muscle.1 However there is apparently a size difference between the no myostatin group and a high myostatin group, but no difference in function was noted.2

It's also very important to keep in mind that even after loads of animal testing, and a seemingly excellent understanding of pathways involved in many systems people still do die in phase one clinical trials.3 This is something to keep in mind when using substances that have only been tested on animals.

1. Neuromuscul Disord. 2007 Apr;17(4):290-6

2. J Endocrinol. 2007 Jul;194(1):63-76

3. Annals of Oncology 1:175-181, 1990

elrond, thank you for sharing this. I'm providing the links to those studies you mentioned in hopes that we could get more debate on this issue.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....=showdetailview
http://joe.endocrino...stract/194/1/63
http://annonc.oxford...bstract/1/3/175

[missminni]

MYOSTIM Myostatin Binder
Does anybody know anything about this product?
I was reading on another thread about the problem of heart muscle shrinking with age,
and came across this product while seeking information regarding aging/shrinking muscle. It does NOT have any impact on
heart muscle, only skeletal muscle. But it sounds very interesting and I am wondering if anybody knows about it and/or
what they think of it.

"It's a myostatin-binding extract obtained from cystoseira canariensis, the brown sea algae which has been shown in laboratory experiments to have myostatin-binding capabilities"

The ingredients and some hype for it are below. I was alarmed that they use artificial color, and it made me wonder about the product and its claims.
I figured the guys here could read through the hype in a minute. What appealed to me was that it was made from seaweed.
Opinions please.

SUPPLEMENT FACTS Serving size 4 caplets
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value*
Sodium 40 mg 2%
Potassium 40 mg 1%
Cystoseira canariensis 1200 mg †
* Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet
† Daily Value not established

Active ingredients: Cystoseira canariensis Fraction-C extract (> 90% sulfo-polysaccharide), sodium lactate, potassium lactate, rhodiola rosea (standardized to 5% rosavin), rhaponticum carthamoides, piperin (piper nigrum).

Other ingredients: Dicalcium phosphate, cellulose, stearic acid, magnesium stearate, titanium dioxide, blue #1, yellow #5.

Your Genetics Are Powerless to Stop Us.

For as long as you’ve been lifting weights you’ve probably been told that your genetics will ultimately determine how strong, how big, and how lean you can get. You were also told that muscle cells don’t divide and the one’s you have will grow only so much. You learned that, short of resorting to risky alternatives, you’d eventually reach a point where your improvement would slow to a crawl or stop altogether.

Worst of all, this logic was more or less correct.

Everything is about to change

Today, we are standing at the forefront of the greatest discovery for athletes in the last fifty years. Recently researchers have discovered the primary gene for the control of muscle. This gene makes a peptide that prevents muscle growth and increases fat storage. They call it myostatin.

If you want to get lean and gain muscle or strength, myostatin is your worst enemy. It is the one peptide in your body whose only mission is to stop you from getting in better shape! Everyone makes myostatin, and it is the primary reason why it is almost impossible to make dramatic increases in muscle size and performance naturally. That’s because every time you do something that stimulates improvement, your body stops it with a burst of myostatin.

Suppress myostatin and muscles begin to grow naturally
The eternal question: Do muscle cells divide or just get bigger?

Just before this went on the web we got hold of a study that answered the question that has been nagging muscle researchers for 30 years: Under the right influences can you force muscle cells to divide? This new research shows that by controlling myostatin you can actually do something even better!! When you suppress myostatin prior to training three things happen:

Satellite cells begin dividing rapidly - when myostatin is suppressed. Satellite cells used to be thought of as just embryonic cells that played little role in the adult. Now they are know to be the key to muscle growth!

*

Satellite cells convert to Myoblast cells. Myoblasts become very active - when myostatin is suppressed
*

Myoblasts bind to muscle cells and add new nuclei to the muscle cell - this is what allows a mature muscle cell to grow bigger (the size of a muscle cell is directly related to the number of nuclei it has).
*

Myoblasts begin producing microtubules that form the membranes of brand new muscle cells! Myoblasts add nuclei to these microtubules and a new muscle cell is born.

[edward]

Here is a pretty definitive study that shows this stuff doesnt work. http://www.ncbi.nlm....;indexed=google

No significant difference between the placebo group and the Cystoseira canariensis (myostim group) after 12 weeks.

As a rule I am very very wary of anything marketed to the bodybuilding world these days. The marketing gurus have made an art form out of making their products sound like high tech pharmaceuticals with amazing results and very few side effects. Often these claims are completely untrue. When they are at least partially true, the substance is usually a new tweaked prohormone or steroid derivative that simply hasn't been classified for what it really is, a new steroid and an attempt to sell something to the public for a time until the FDA bans it.

Research research research before wasting money on products like this.

[krillin]

Here's a discussion from last year.

http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=201925

[missminni]

Here is a pretty definitive study that shows this stuff doesnt work. http://www.ncbi.nlm....;indexed=google

No significant difference between the placebo group and the Cystoseira canariensis (myostim group) after 12 weeks.

As a rule I am very very wary of anything marketed to the bodybuilding world these days. The marketing gurus have made an art form out of making their products sound like high tech pharmaceuticals with amazing results and very few side effects. Often these claims are completely untrue. When they are at least partially true, the substance is usually a new tweaked prohormone or steroid derivative that simply hasn't been classified for what it really is, a new steroid and an attempt to sell something to the public for a time until the FDA bans it.

Research research research before wasting money on products like this.

Thanks. I would never buy it without investigating it...that's why I posted here.
They make a statement about it being enteric coated (maybe why they use food coloring) that has me wondering about the test that was done...

Unless enteric coated, up to 99% of the myostatin binder may be destroyed during digestion.

do you think this could have any validity?

Here's a discussion from last year.

http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=201925

Thanks.

[Mind]

There are a few of these "natural" myostatin blockers on the market. If they really worked they would already be banned because they would be as powerful or more powerful than steroids (according to a couple popular articles I have read). Animals who lack the gene that produces myostatin look like freaks of nature, even cartoonish, because they have so much muscle. Some pharma labs are working on true functional myostatin blockers, in the hopes of helping older people who suffer from muscle loss. Of course, athletes and bodybuilders will want to get their hands on the stuff, and many sports leagues will probably ban it (sad).

I suppose it could be dangerous in the fact that people could develop much more muscle than their hearts, lungs, or other organs could handle. Myostatin is probably part of an evolved system to prevent the muscles from growing in order to conserve energy. If muscles grew with no limit, then the body would need greatly increased amounts of food and that would be bad for survival (back on the african plains).

Still, it is not as if myostatin blocks all muscle growth (like the "hype" statement above claims), it just makes it harder to gain muscle mass.

[missminni]

There are a few of these "natural" myostatin blockers on the market. If they really worked they would already be banned because they would be as powerful or more powerful than steroids (according to a couple popular articles I have read). Animals who lack the gene that produces myostatin look like freaks of nature, even cartoonish, because they have so much muscle. Some pharma labs are working on true functional myostatin blockers, in the hopes of helping older people who suffer from muscle loss. Of course, athletes and bodybuilders will want to get their hands on the stuff, and many sports leagues will probably ban it (sad).

I suppose it could be dangerous in the fact that people could develop much more muscle than their hearts, lungs, or other organs could handle. Myostatin is probably part of an evolved system to prevent the muscles from growing in order to conserve energy. If muscles grew with no limit, then the body would need greatly increased amounts of food and that would be bad for survival (back on the african plains).

Still, it is not as if myostatin blocks all muscle growth (like the "hype" statement above claims), it just makes it harder to gain muscle mass.

Yeah, I agree that there has to be a serious downside, if their claims are even true. They do mention
that it only blocks it for skeletal muscle not heart, but I am not finding any of their claims convincing. One of the reasons I was curious is
because I am interested in sea minerals/vegetables as a supplement. My Dad has used them very effectively in lowering his PSA. I was wondering
what else they might specifically be good for.

[Shepard]

From my understanding, I see this being an big let-down for bodybuilding. When this first hit the scene, people were claiming we'll have 400 lb. 3.whatever% BF professionals in a few years. A lot of things downregulate myostatin expression (the things which lead to hypertrophy). It seems to me, myostatin inhibition is going to have a fairly drastic effect during growth or in cases of something like sarcopenia, but I don't see it as being a replacement for good old testosterone (and other assorted goodies).

Edit: And, I know myostatin inhibition in adult mice has led to increased skeletal muscle...but I'd still like to see myostatin inhibition vs. an approach that would lead to myostatin inhibition downstream. And, I pretty much fail to get excited over body composition effects in mice these days.

Edited by shepard, 05 January 2008 - 12:08 AM.

[Crepulance]

Hi, I thought I would introduce this into the Forums and see what everyone had to say, or has heard, or has thoughts on. Myostatin Blockers is fairly new and knew of one that didn't make it out of clinical trials. Does anyone have some up to date info on this subject? Who's closest to a market product, etc? Availability? Feel free to post anything. Have fun!


Crep