28 replies to this topic

[scottl]

and even most of them "are not sure" of that. Exactly 1% are certain there is no God

Gallup: Poll Finds Americans' Belief in God Remains Strong

By E&P Staff

Published: December 13, 2005 12:15 PM ET

NEW YORK A new Gallup survey released today finds that four decades after the "God Is Dead" controversy was first noted, Americans retain a strong belief in a higher power. Some 94% think God exists.

Only 5% feel God "does not exist" -- and even most of them "are not sure" of that. Exactly 1% are certain there is no God.

But how strongly do the believers believe? Nearly 8 in 10, in fact, say they are "convinced" God exists, although Gallup does not ask them why that is.

http://www.editorand...t_id=1001659292
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Of course there are other ideas of god then the one usually disscussed/dismissed here

[quadclops]

So, only 1% of our country is sane? That explains a lot. [tung]

[eternaltraveler]

I am certainly not sure that god absolutely does not exist. I am agnostic. But most traditional religions I am fairly certain are irrational as they do not fit with what we know of the world now (unless you want to twist them beyond all recognition and call a singularity intelligence the second coming of christ).

[scottl]

I just love tweaking the athiest mafia here.

The reason that god ain't EVER going away is because there is a reality behind it. Not in the dogma or the stuff written down in conventional religion, but in certain spritual experiences experienced by people throughout the ages of all different faiths e.g. bhudda, meister eckhart (there is a great quote by him I'll try to find...something like he liked to be close to god and silence was the closest he could get...I'm butchering it) and others.

As I've said before and zencatholic agreed, get real quiet however you wish and go into an old catholic church when it is empty e.g. mid-day during the week and you can experience it or something related. There is a very powerful energy there that ain't there in other churches, or empty stadiums (don't ask me to explain why and I'm not catholic).

Anyway I do believe in a great whatever AKA god but it perhaps resembles more the force of starwars than the god of any conventional religion. Anyone can lean to tap into it and no one needs to take my word for it as you can learn to tap into it and experience it for yourself.

There is nothing intelligent I can add to this so I will not try, but I'll try to find the meister echkart quote as it is nice (he was a christian mystic).

[boundlesslife]

Posted by quadclops:

So, only 1% of our country is sane?  That explains a lot.

Perhaps ony 1% feel confident enough in their judgement to declare the other 99% to be delusional, and the 99%, in turn, feel that if 99% of their fellow humans state a belief in the supernatural, however variously construed, there "must be something to it"?

The 99%, busy with the challenges of growing up, managing their families, dealing with problems of preparing for retirement, etc., may in fact be giving very little thought to these matters, possibly as a result of being more intrigued (or distracted) by more tangible entertainments, combined with a certain horror that if there "wasn't anything to it", it would be like waking up from a nightmare and finding it was 'real'!

It's demoralizing, in a way, to have such low expectations of most people's mentalities as to attribute to them a virtual "vacuum of curiosity" or "terror of a universe in which they would be truly responsible for themselves", but this finally becomes an inescapable conclusion. If those in that 99% are not bound to dogma or paralyzed by fear, perhaps the only other way to describe them would be that they have no more curiosity about their destinies than "sleeping sloths"!

scottl has said, "There is a very powerful energy there that ain't there in other churches, or empty stadiums (don't ask me to explain why and I'm not catholic)." But this seems to be simply trusting in 'gut feel'. When he talks about a 'very powerful energy' I'd guess he's not looking at a meter that indicates kilowatts or horsepower. This isn't 'thinking' so much as the reporting of 'funny feelings' in some circumstances or in certain places. I'd bet that a similar 'feeling funny' sensation would be reported by most people who were asked to sit around vacant funeral parlors for awhile (vacant except for the bodies awaiting their 'visitations' and 'ceremonies').

At least can we give scottl a feeling of comfort, as judged by his statement, "I just love tweaking the athiest mafia here." He knows we won't burn him at the stake for not thinking as we do, and has reason to suspect that we wouldn't freeze him either (against his will).

That 99% of the population who say they have some kind of belief in "God" or something like it have only one thing to fear, and that is that their numbers might dwindle to the point that they would not be in the majority anymore, and (in which case) many of them might begin to question their own beliefs and confront their own mortalities in very different terms than they would like, further reducing their numbers, etc.

Meanwhile, we should not incite their wrath by putting bumper stickers on our cars that read, "Death to all Non-Life-Extensionists!" They could take it the wrong way!

boundlesslife

[advancedatheist]

As I've said before and zencatholic agreed, get real quiet however you wish and go into an old catholic church when it is empty e.g. mid-day during the week and you can experience it or something related.  There is a very powerful energy there that ain't there in other churches, or empty stadiums (don't ask me to explain why and I'm not catholic).

Then why has religious belief declined in much of Western Europe, despite all the old catholic churches around? Indeed, I've read that because of the lack of worshippers, many church buildings in the EU countries now shelter useful businesses like laudromats and discotheques.

[biknut]

"Then why has religious belief declined in much of Western Europe, despite all the old catholic churches around? Indeed, I've read that because of the lack of worshippers, many church buildings in the EU countries now shelter useful businesses like laudromats and discotheques. "

i think this could just be because now days a lot of people have their own beliefs about god and don't feel it necessary to go to a church to worship. if god exists i don't think he's going to turn his back on a believer just because he doesn't go to the right church. everyone believes in something, even if it's just that you are dirt when you die. that's still a belief. i don't see the attraction to it though. i don't really subscribe to any religion and at the same time a little of all religions. i don't need a religion to believe in an after life.

this is what i've heard, and i think it could be true. when you die you go to the next diamension. there, everything is just like here. people work, fight wars, and live their lives. some people don't want to go. they try to stay here for reasons of their own. some want to right a wrong. some feel they didn't complete something and want to stay. some are just lost and don't know how to leave. most of the time someone comes to show you the way. usually it's a relative. eventually someone will come to get you in due time no matter what. when they come they will not make you leave but they will persuade you to go. some people are able to travel back and forth. someone i know offered to take me there for a visit. he said going there is not hard. coming back is a little harder. he told me if he takes me there to not look at the people because we are like tourists and they will try to distract me. if i should get separated he might not be able to find me and i would be lost and not get back. he told me there are other dimensions that are higher levels. jesus is not on the highest level but he's up there. a lot of the people that stay here in this diamension live in trees. he said do not tie a black ribbon on a tree because it locks the, let's say soul, in the tree. this will make him mad and when he gets out he may come and bother you. also do not tie a red ribbon on a tree because that will make the soul living in the tree think you love him and he will follow you around. he told me as far as he knows a yellow ribbon has no effect. for this reason he said it's best to not pee on a tree when you are in the woods. they only live in big trees, not small ones. out of 10 large trees someone lives in maybe 8 of them. they also live just about everywhere else too. these people are kind of like waiting on the bus to take them away. he never mentioned god. he said the object is to get to the highest diamension. he didn't tell me how. do i believe all this? maybe. i do have high regard for the man that told me this. i know that he has no doubt about.

one last thing about this man. he demonstrated to me the ability to find a ball hidden under a cup. he held the ball in his hand. then he gave the ball to one of 12 people looking on. he put 3 cups on a table. he gave the ball to one of us and turned around telling him to place the ball under one of the cups. the ball was placed under the left cup. when we were ready he turned around and looked at the person. then he moved his hand over the cups starting at the right. he lifted the left cup revealing the ball. then he gave me the ball. i decided to choose the same cup thinking he wouldn't think i will choose the same cup as before. i was careful not to move the cup. before he turned around we moved the right cup a little to try to fool him. when he turned around he looked at me. i gave him the blankest look i could. he waved his hand back and forth for a lot longer this time. then he lifted the left cup again revealing the ball. i was thinking, man that's really luck. then he gave the ball to another one of us. i was thinking, man he's really pushing his luck now. this time the ball was put under the right cup. we moved all the cups a little bit. when he turned back around he looked at the person, smiled and without hesitation lifted the right cup. when i looked at him he looked exhausted. the whole time was only about 4 minutes. i checked everything possible for a way to cheat. a friend that knows him better than me explained, first he tries to read your mind. if your mind is weak that's the easiest way, but if that's not working, when he holds the ball in his hand as he did after each time he somehow does something to the ball that he can detect when he waves his hand over the cups. when he demonstrated this, it wasn't for the 12 of us. it was for the benefit of 3 of us that were close to him. i do believe he would not try to deceive us, and this was real. a type of power, if you will, unknown to most people. he said anyone can do it. all you have to do is quite your job and practice all day long and you will be able to develop it stronger than he has. if this is possible why not god. i continue to be close to this chinese man to this day. i trust him with my life.

[scottl]

The doctrine of atheist humanism is a religion that produces fanatics no less dedicated than some of the less worthy scions of the Church Militant...

Jerry Pournelle

[Karomesis]

I prefer to think of myself as atheist by default, although nick bostroms simulation argument is formidable.

If there are simulators/gods/whatever, they can fuck themselves. We find it amusing to play The Sims which by the way is the best selling video game of all time, what if the characters had feelings of pain/emotional distress, ect? Would a person controlling these characters be obligated to reduce this misery in one way or another? Or continue as if thier existence is only at the whim and fancy of the creator? That is why I am extremely confident that if there are simulators, they most certainly do not resemble any religious figure created in the mind of man. As DeSade argues in julliette; to judge by the notions expounded by theologians, one must conclude that god created most men simply with a veiw to crowding hell.

[Infernity]

God is an irrelevant issue. Since you neither can't prove it nor disprove it - the whole idea from the beginning is irrelevant. So all those who "don't know" or "don't care" or "unsure"... That's reasonable... They have no proves for any side, so you may say they are skeptic. I accept their approch... I'd still put them on the sane side, and very acceptable

-Infernity

[DJS]

God explains nothing.

[john e]

The proof that our Heavenly Father exists is easy to know. The earth and life is evidence and we have the Holy Spirit to confirm his existance and love with many examples in life that prove his Word to be true by his works that can be seen by those who wish to see them with their "spiritual eyes", that every human being has.

Seek the truth, look around and understand with more than knowledge, information. Knowledge, information does not provide true understanding.
Love always,
~John

[JonesGuy]

People should type "'god module' brain cortex" into google, and read up on the putative 'faith center' of the brain. Fascinating stuff.

[Infernity]

Hey Don, haven't seen you for quite a period, nice to see you abroad again.

-Infernity

[Cyto]

I believe that there are tube-like things that run the middle of the sun, I'm sorry, I mean to say that I just have this feeling tugging at me. I just have to say that there is really nothing to push me either way exactly through, that they really do or don't exist, but it just seems possible. I mean forget that I have these tube-like things poorly characterized; I swear that it's not to allow dodging by mean-old scientific inquiry. There are many different views on possible traits of the tube-like things, but none of them are verifiable...because no one can come to agreement on the things we do think it is - and test for that - then work from there. I think that the little, self-induced, depolarization’s (etc) that I induce through prayer/meditation (etc) does some really neat stuff - like make it seem there is a separate part of me, screw all of the neurodegenerative data. Since I can do these neat things with my brain - I think this does help that there is those tube-like things in the center of the sun, in fact, I think that helps me believe even more after going through this. I mean its scientifically verifiable that my brain did go through an abnormal phenomena - I mean SCIENCE people even agrees that something weird is going on - this helps my faith in the tube-like things as well. Forget that I originally pervert it for my own doing and will cast doubt on it when they try and inquire as to its characteristics. For I think its un-testable by science, there is the fricken tube-like thing antennae in my BRAIN, showing that the tube-like things want me to know of their existence...

(sigh) uh huh.

[justinb]

God explains nothing.

Amen. [tung] [lol]

Seriously...

It is time people stop being stupid, wouldn't everyone agree with me? [wis]

Hey Don, haven't seen you for quite a period, nice to see you abroad again.

-Infernity

Hehe, you almost have disappeared too.

[brandonreinhart]

There is a very powerful energy there that ain't there in other churches, or empty stadiums (don't ask me to explain why and I'm not catholic).

To quote Nagel:

"Though a man's report that he is suffering pain may be taken at face value, one cannot take at face value the claim, were he to make it, that it is the food he ate which is the cause (or a contributory cause) of his pain - not even if the man were to report a vivid feeling of abdominal disturbance. And similarly, an overwhelming feeling of being in the presence of the Divine is evidence enough for admitting the genuineness of such feeling; it is no evidence for the claim that a supreme being with a substantial existence independent of the experience is the cause of the experience."

[DJS]

Hi Adi. My life has been quite... tumultuous, as of late.

In keeping with this "God" discussion, one should be aware that even within Bostromesque simulation scenarios, the "simulator" does not meet the criteria neccesary for an omnipotent being. (Even if there was an infinite regress of "simulators" this would not explain the infinite regress itself).

Basically, the logic of an infinite regress destroys the "God hypothesis" neatly and without fuss. One can always look for a previous cause "ad infinitum". Existence is infinite -- I believe that is what the typical human has so much trouble wrapping hes mind around.

The "god meme" is purely a social construct.

"Faith" means the will to avoid knowing what is true.

A casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

Christians call it faith ... I call it the herd.

God is a gross answer, an indelicacy against us thinkers -- at bottom merely a gross prohibition: thou shalt shall not think! -- 

Friedrich Nietzsche

[Cyto]

Whew, thought I killed conversation there for a second. Glad to see your kicking Don.

[nihilist]

So]

i thought mental illness was a vast minority? so it would appear, that atheists are nuts.

[quadclops]

A "vast" minority? Isn't that kind of a contradiction, like "jumbo shrimp?" [bl:)]

Yes, we atheists are nuts, but at least we know we're nuts.

I'm honey-roasted myself. [tung]

[quadclops]

As far as the "atheist mafia" thing goes, perhaps we atheists do tend to get a little strident in our denunciations of religion and the faithful sometimes, but I think it's because some of us feel just a little resentful about a nearly all-pervading cultural bias that says that our personal moral values are pointless, empty, and even unpatriotic if they're not centered around some unproven father-figure who lives in the sky!

I'm more of the opposite opinion myself. I tend to think that anyone who insists that America should be governed by Bible values is unpatriotic. Think about it. Isn't God's title "King of kings and Lord of lords?" Well, didn't we kick out the king and his lords a little over 200 years ago, because we wanted to be a country of individual liberty and self-determination?! As a proudly democratic American, I feel (being an atheist) that having any kind of "king" telling you what to do with your life, tends to seriously infringe on your right to self-determination!

As Richard Holloway says in Godless Morality: Keeping Religion Out Of Ethics, a moral value should be accepted and followed because it's a good idea in itself, not just because some divine authority told you to do it. That, to my mind, puts morality more on a democratic footing. A matter of personal ethical analysis and choice, rather than just subservient acquiescence to some "kingly" mandate.

Oh, poop. More to say, but brain getting fuzzy now, need go sleep. Pick up topic again later.
Bye, b . . . zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[advancedatheist]

As Richard Holloway says in Godless Morality: Keeping Religion Out Of Ethics, a moral value should be accepted and followed because it's a good idea in itself, not just because some divine authority told you to do it. 

I don't understand why we have to obey, without question, what any "supernatural" being tells you to do. For example, suppose a "god," whatever that means, comes along and says, "I order you to disobey me." If you have to categorically obey this being, what do you do now?

[biknut]

One day at school during a lesson about evolution the teacher asks little Johnny,
Johnny do you see that tree outside?
Johnny: yes
teacher: and do you see the grass?
Johnny: yes
teacher: now go outside and look up at the sky. Johnny goes out and soon
returns.
teacher: did you see the sky?
Johnny: yes
teacher: and did you see god?
Johnny: no
teacher: that's because god doesn't exist. you can't see god because he doesn't
exist.
At this time little Janie raises her hand because she wants to ask Johnny some questions too. The teacher agrees.
Janie: Johny, do you see that tree outside?
Johny: yes
Janie: do you see the grass?
Johny: yess
Janie: do you see the teacher?
Johny: yesss
Janie: do you see the teachers brain?
Johny: no
Janie: then based on the lesson you just learned that's because she doesn't
have one

[emerson]

One day at school during a lesson about evolution the teacher asks little Johnny,
Johnny do you see that tree outside?

Religious arguments without a straw man jumping in somewhere are like cake without icing.

[alexjohnc3]

One day at school during a lesson about evolution the teacher asks little Johnny...

That would be a good argument, if anyone was an atheist solely because they cannot see God. I agree with Emerson. [mellow]

"There's truth and then there's statistics." I'm disappointed in anyone who listens to surveys... what was the point to this thread again?

[biknut]

what's your reason then?

[alexjohnc3]

I never said I was an atheist. I am an agnostic atheist, but only because I consider the fact that I lack knowledge to be a large part of myself. Otherwise I'd call myself an atheist.

And I have my reasons, but I don't know the point of this thread and I don't want to get off-topic. Here's one, fyi: The omnipotence paradox.
"Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even that being could not lift it?"