29 replies to this topic

[thedevinroy]

Just tried some 5:1 Mu Gua in water. Makes me want to work out and gives me a noticeable energy kick. Herbal dopaminergics tend to have this initial effect in me and then die down rapidly.

Anyone try this herb long term before?

Edited by devinthayer, 14 August 2016 - 01:49 PM.

[Brazzo]

I've experienced exactly the same effects. On the first days strongly dopaminergic, than it all faded. Now I don't even get the initial effects when I take a long break.

Haven't tried long term though.

[thedevinroy]

There is a misspelling in the post title. Should say "Mu Gua" not "Ma Gua".

[thedevinroy]

Honestly any noticeable effect of Mu Gua was over 10 minutes later.

[thedevinroy]

At 1 to 1000 mcg/mL it dose dependently inhibits DAT and even some NET at the higher doses. This is of the whole extract it seems.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/18485464/

Plasma concentrations may be somewhere in the range of this with injection, but I like to assume a factor of 2 due to absorption delays and metabolism. For 5 liters of blood, that is an upper limit of 2*5*.001g*1000mL/L = 10 grams. Since this is a 5:1 extract, I should be able to see the full effect with 10/5*1.2 = 2.4 grams for my body weight (having 20% more blood than the average joe).

I just did some math on the scoop, and it seems that this batch is a little more dense. It's about 1.1 grams per scoop. I'll try two very slightly mounded scoops tomorrow morning to get my 2.4 grams. My guess is that I need a higher dose than even that over time due to enzyme adjustment... This is already an uncomfortably large dose for the price. Even if I get an hour of noticeable (side) effects, will it be enough to correct ADHD symptoms for the rest of the day? Will that work for chronic use as well? If so, what dose will this work all day into the next? Or if not, what is the half life of all system corrections? I hope to learn as much of this before I run out.

Another trick I noticed works with catecholamine reuptake inhibitors is synergizing caffeine or a release agent to kick in at around the same time. That way, more dopamine/norepinephrine is pooled in the CNS. I did this with Strattera+Caffeine and also Phenylpiracetam with itself by spacing out the doses. If there is also a release agent effect with Mu Gua, the effect will be more of a steep S shaped curve until the release agent effect is maxed for dose response rather than linear or straight exponential. Anyhow, since the effects kicked in so quickly, I'm willing to bet that I'd be better off drinking my coffee first. Or sandwiching my coffee in between the two doses.

Edited by devinthayer, 15 August 2016 - 03:16 AM.

[sativa]

devinthayer here is a dopamine boosting/maximising combination I've tried in the past - some might be of use to you perhaps?

manganese, vitamin B9, B3, olive leaf, lysine, NAC, rutin (a peripheral MAO-B inhibitor)

Together, they seemed quite strong.

[thedevinroy]

Tried 2.4 grams this morning. Lasted 20 minutes of noticeable effects. Drank coffee right after. No noticeable synergy. No effect on tardiness, my ruler for how effective an ADHD treatment is.

[normalizing]

devinthayer good try and finding new reliable things through experimentation. this has been mentioned before, but knowing you it kind of makes interest now. anyway, i like your approuch to the dopamine. i wonder how well you fare with coca leaves as i abused them and caused massive downregulation of dopamine but they were the only things in the world so far to work fairly noticeable at decent doses.

[thedevinroy]

Tyrosine hydroxylase is a biotch! Protecting your dopaminergic cells is more important than exciting them in the long term. Today is super dull, and I wonder if that spike did more harm than good. How long did coca leaves last?

On second thought... I forgot to take my noopept this morning. That and I had some nicotine last night. Double whammy choline hangover. That... Or maybe it's just a Monday again, haha.

Edited by devinthayer, 15 August 2016 - 07:17 PM.

[normalizing]

coca leaves is something i wont recommend to people who seek high thrills. this shit is potent ok. you will be seeing "stars". it was very different than coke, so "organic" within you slowly acting and driving you nuts almost i didnt believe. now im ex coke head but this felt too organic and powerful to compare, it needs other people reports please. i wont do it again, it burned me a bit deadly, but maybe its just me? i have to find out if anyone else did that. devinthayer, maybe im burned out bro im not 20 anymore to experiment with this shit to give me high highs but can you handle it?

[thedevinroy]

coca leaves is something i wont recommend to people who seek high thrills. this shit is potent ok. you will be seeing "stars". it was very different than coke, so "organic" within you slowly acting and driving you nuts almost i didnt believe. now im ex coke head but this felt too organic and powerful to compare, it needs other people reports please. i wont do it again, it burned me a bit deadly, but maybe its just me? i have to find out if anyone else did that. devinthayer, maybe im burned out bro im not 20 anymore to experiment with this shit to give me high highs but can you handle it?

I was just asking about the half life to compare it. Dopaminergics tend to have short half lives, and if yours was longer it could have burned the candle on both ends. I'm not actually interested in testing the waters on coca leaves... Just was curious from a purely academic view.

[Flex]

@ normalizing

 

cant help You out because its illegal here and I cant anyway order actually anything outside the EU thanks to the customs.

btw did You know that pure Cocaine causes micro-strokes that apparently arent visuable on a normal MRI but IIRC the other compounds in the leaf abolish this effect somehow.

afaik >45min no blood supply = cell-death

Cocaine induced cortical microischemia in the rodent brain: Clinical implications

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3934297/

 

@devinthayer

 

I tried Mu Gua but felt nothing. I´ve eye balled arround 300mg a few times, maybe I shoud´ve taken more but what worked for me was Psoralea Corylifolia / Bu Gu Zhi at the same doses.

I would recommend this

Edited by Flex, 16 August 2016 - 12:26 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Update: dosed up to 7 grams one day. Effects still only last for less than hour. I'm just about out and have no long term noticeable benefits. Will skip it tomorrow, see if I notice a withdrawal or anything.

[normalizing]

not sure why are you so hooked on that homopathic shit, anyway good luck. if you wish to take even larger doses and comment do so but im finding this rather silly at this point. stick to pharmaceuticals

[thedevinroy]

not sure why are you so hooked on that homopathic shit, anyway good luck. if you wish to take even larger doses and comment do so but im finding this rather silly at this point. stick to pharmaceuticals

Homeopathics is an alternative medicine where less is more - an antiextract. Herbals supplements like the Mu Gua are extracts, the opposite of homeopathic remedies - they are concentrated for their active drugs. Because they are natural drugs, the medicine is somewhat more unpredictable and thus requires individual testing as much or more than pharmaceuticals. I stated a study that shows that the liquid extract shows inhibition of the dopamine transporter - so essentially it acts like amphetamine or cocaine in that regard. Mu Gua is a drug, just not in vivo as it appears.

And as far as why I am going for natural supplements, it is because they are available and affordable. I'm having a hell of a time in the system getting a med nurse or pill doc. Certain minimum requirements before you can have a referral including number of sessions with a social worker, blood work, and a physical. It takes time, especially when there are cancellations and set backs to appointments.

I refuse to take street drugs. I live in a dangerous city with cut throat police, and I'm not trying to get wrapped up in all that with the package sniffers they got going on nowadays. I will continue to try supplements and alternative approaches because that is what makes sense for me in my life right now.

[sativa]

devinthayer, normalising seems to have an issue with plant based approaches to medicine, and misidentifies it as homeopathy.

Just be aware of this when addressing his "concerns".

[normalizing]

sative you are still a teenager but when you are my age and you did about 500 herbals, about 20 illegal drugs and about 50 pharmaceuticals you will understand things kind of work pharmaceutical way with the illegal drugs being a huge drifting point towards them

[thedevinroy]

I take some very strong herbals. Makes it encouraging to find more. For instance, I keep saying the megadose for Ashwagandha for 50mg of withanolides provides a distinguishable effect as a mental stabilizer, even an ability to work like a freight train - plus severely reduces inflammation and back/joint pain. Another one is Zembrin, which is by far the most potent and fast acting herbal antidepressant I have tried and also severely reduces caffeine side effects. Cat's Claw is a hugely strong sedative. Lastly, Huperzine A is an extremely powerful recall enhancer - helping me remember and recall clips and phrases and numbers all day. Pardon me if I am a bit optimistic given these powerful herbal extracts.

[sativa]

sative you are still a teenager but when you are my age and you did about 500 herbals, about 20 illegal drugs and about 50 pharmaceuticals you will understand things kind of work pharmaceutical way with the illegal drugs being a huge drifting point towards them

I'm not a teenager... How old are you?

A likely explanation is that your substantial use and abuse of psychoactive substances has dulled and desensitised your brain (and mind) to the point where herbal medicines dont seem to have any effect; and man-made substances are the only thing that has a noticeable effect for you.

From this, you erroneously assume all herbal medicines are of little value.

Perhaps you could take some herbs such as those in ayahuasca or Syrian rue and get the insight you require to evolve your current state to a more harmonious one (uniquely based on your forum posting persona). You think they do nothing so why not try it and try to have an open mind.

Edited by sativa, 23 August 2016 - 12:44 PM.

[normalizing]

oh ok ill just go to the local store and buy ayhuasca, thanks

[thedevinroy]

This was fun and productive thanks guys.

[sativa]

Do you find Huperzine A's NMDA antagonsism has no noticeable affect on it's AChEi based enhanced memory formation?

On this topic, there are papers looking into the connection between NMDA antagonsism related memory issues and PDE4 inhibitors which seem to ameliorate this:

Inhibition of Cyclic AMP Phosphodiesterase (PDE4) Reverses Memory Deficits Associated with NMDA Receptor Antagonism

Cyclic AMP-specific phosphodiesterase 4 (PDE4), which is an integral component of NMDA receptor-mediated cAMP signaling, is involved in the mediation of memory processes.

Inhibitors of PDE4 may act on this pathway to produce their effects on memory and may represent a new class of cognitive enhancers

[thedevinroy]

Do you find Huperzine A's NMDA antagonsism has no noticeable affect on it's AChEi based enhanced memory formation?

On this topic, there are papers looking into the connection between NMDA antagonsism related memory issues and PDE4 inhibitors which seem to ameliorate this:

Inhibition of Cyclic AMP Phosphodiesterase (PDE4) Reverses Memory Deficits Associated with NMDA Receptor Antagonism

Cyclic AMP-specific phosphodiesterase 4 (PDE4), which is an integral component of NMDA receptor-mediated cAMP signaling, is involved in the mediation of memory processes.

Inhibitors of PDE4 may act on this pathway to produce their effects on memory and may represent a new class of cognitive enhancers

It's a partial calcium channel antagonist. It blocks the calcium channel in the NMDA receptor ever so slightly, but then flies off whenever the going gets tough. It doesn't bind in the same way that PCP or ketamine does. In a sense, it acts more like a small dose of magnesium. These calming effects are felt at higher doses in the range of what I am taking. Anyway, this should have a pro-memory effect, not an inhibitory effect on learning. By slowing the brain down to a point where it is not chaotic (aka increasing the signal to noise ratio by removing the noise), you are allowing for greater long term potentiation.

I can't say one way or another if Zembrin's PDE4 inhibition effects are all that helpful in reversing the NMDA antagonism from Huperzine A for sure, since I haven't gone off the Huperzine A to find out. However, the whole thrill-seeking no-filter behavior associated with ADD is a bit more obvious when I am on Zembrin but only because of the caffeine I need to take, otherwise, I'm a lump on a log. I have a more eager desire to create than to learn on Zembrin - which is probably due to the antidepressant effect mixed with the whole anti-side effects from caffeine. I can literally take 1.4 grams of caffeine over the course of the morning and afternoon and be fine for bedtime... That's a lot more mental creative energy than I have ever had. I started writing jokes. Not sure if CILTEP does that for people, but PDE4 or whatever is in that Kanna extract (double uptake SSRI?) seems to pack a punch with caffeine. Learning behaviors... probably worse... Just because I am always in a more creative mood.

[dubbyah]

Just curious, but what's the longest you've gone with absolutely no caffeine at all, i.e. not even 20mg a day from dark chocolate or decaf teas, and what happened?

 

 

 

 

 

Do you find Huperzine A's NMDA antagonsism has no noticeable affect on it's AChEi based enhanced memory formation?

On this topic, there are papers looking into the connection between NMDA antagonsism related memory issues and PDE4 inhibitors which seem to ameliorate this:
 

Inhibition of Cyclic AMP Phosphodiesterase (PDE4) Reverses Memory Deficits Associated with NMDA Receptor Antagonism

Cyclic AMP-specific phosphodiesterase 4 (PDE4), which is an integral component of NMDA receptor-mediated cAMP signaling, is involved in the mediation of memory processes.

Inhibitors of PDE4 may act on this pathway to produce their effects on memory and may represent a new class of cognitive enhancers

It's a partial calcium channel antagonist. It blocks the calcium channel in the NMDA receptor ever so slightly, but then flies off whenever the going gets tough. It doesn't bind in the same way that PCP or ketamine does. In a sense, it acts more like a small dose of magnesium. These calming effects are felt at higher doses in the range of what I am taking. Anyway, this should have a pro-memory effect, not an inhibitory effect on learning. By slowing the brain down to a point where it is not chaotic (aka increasing the signal to noise ratio by removing the noise), you are allowing for greater long term potentiation.

I can't say one way or another if Zembrin's PDE4 inhibition effects are all that helpful in reversing the NMDA antagonism from Huperzine A for sure, since I haven't gone off the Huperzine A to find out. However, the whole thrill-seeking no-filter behavior associated with ADD is a bit more obvious when I am on Zembrin but only because of the caffeine I need to take, otherwise, I'm a lump on a log. I have a more eager desire to create than to learn on Zembrin - which is probably due to the antidepressant effect mixed with the whole anti-side effects from caffeine. I can literally take 1.4 grams of caffeine over the course of the morning and afternoon and be fine for bedtime... That's a lot more mental creative energy than I have ever had. I started writing jokes. Not sure if CILTEP does that for people, but PDE4 or whatever is in that Kanna extract (double uptake SSRI?) seems to pack a punch with caffeine. Learning behaviors... probably worse... Just because I am always in a more creative mood.

 

 

[thedevinroy]

Dubbyah,

After about a week, I stabilized. I was more calm, no more tired than usual. Less ups and downs and had to really pay attention to sleep, though I don't remember why...

My conclusion was basically that it was good for hyperactivity and blood pressure and being a more stable person but bad for everything else. I was less creative, less happy, less motivated, and less alive as a person it felt.

[John250]

Just got mine in the mail. What made you think the reasoning was for the negative side? This is a natural herb right? So it can only increase dopamine naturally without any depletion afterwards right?

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[jacobjerondin]

Haha unfortunately that is not true at all John, look up the "appeal to nature" fallacy. Anyway, please let us all know how your extract works out for you as I've been thinking about getting this stuff for quite a while now!

[John250]

Haha unfortunately that is not true at all John, look up the "appeal to nature" fallacy. Anyway, please let us all know how your extract works out for you as I've been thinking about getting this stuff for quite a while now!

I’m not even going to bother using it. If you are in the US and want it I’ll send it to you for free. Just message me your info.

[eon]

Anyone here ever tried the actual Quince fruit? My local Walmart sold it before and have tried some of it. I can't remember how it tasted like.

 

Anyway, I have yet to try this Quince herbal supplement by Flower Essence Services. It has 1:6000, not sure if that is good or bad?

[jacobjerondin]

I’m not even going to bother using it. If you are in the US and want it I’ll send it to you for free. Just message me your info.

Wow thank you John, that's incredibly generous of you. I'll PM you!

 

Anyone here ever tried the actual Quince fruit? My local Walmart sold it before and have tried some of it. I can't remember how it tasted like.

 

Anyway, I have yet to try this Quince herbal supplement by Flower Essence Services. It has 1:6000, not sure if that is good or bad?

Unfortunately I'd guess that that essence product is homeopathic and so ineffective. I think you want a larger number first, like 5:1 or 25:1, not the other way around afaik. I think that means it's like 1/6000 flowering quince and the rest is water or something haha.