27 replies to this topic

[littlegreycells]

OK my first ever noops have arrived:

Hup-A
Pyritinol
Vincamine
Vinpocetine

That's right, no racetams. At this stage I'm looking for something of a mental "zap" -- hopefully a perceptible boost in alertness, memory, concentration, mental energy/stamina -- rather than something subtle and cummulative.

I'd like to canvass opinion on two points:

1. I'll ease into the stack one noop at a time, but after about a month would there be anything wrong with varying doses fairly dramatically in the course of each week?... ie. keeping them fairly conservative most days but ramping them up commensurate to just how much strain I'm likely to be putting on the cognitive motor on any given day?

2. As the two "V's" and Pyritinol (I think?) are all vasilodators, would I be increasing cerebral haemorrhaging risks by taking all three together in reasonable doses? When I really want to ramp things up what would be the upper safe dosages for this stack?

[xanadu]

I would be really cautious about this "ramp up" business you are thinking about. Many things do not give good results when you take too much of them. Vinpocetine for example, does not give added benefits when taken in large amounts. It's also very subtle and not something you notice right away, usually. It's wise to take one thing at a time to see what effects it has on you. Settle for a noticable improvement but don't go for the zap. Pushing for instant results can backfire.

[prodigy2020]

Yeah... Hup-A is another one you definitely don't want to take too much of. Seeing as how it uses the same pathway as nerve gas, you'd be in for a pretty unpleasant overdose. Hup-A inhibits Ach-E (enzyme that breaks down Ach, aka Acetyl-Choline). Ach-E, when only slightly inhibited (as in low doses of Hup-A), results in less Ach being broken down, so more stays in your system longer, which is a good thing and is actually beneficial. However, if you inhibit Ach-E too much, your nerves have difficulty relaxing your muscles (you can flex them, but Ach must be broken down for you to relax them). You'll probably have other unpleasant effects too.

Stick to the recommended dosage for Hup-A [thumb]

When experimenting with doses, I don't think dramatic alterations would be a very good idea. I think experimenting with doses would be a good thing to do to find the optimal dose for you, but gradual changes would probably be preferential to drastic ones.

[littlegreycells]

Many thanks for the replies Xanadu and Prodigy2020,

I'm certainly not considering taking anything above recommended dosages. However, I know that LifeMirage (any comments on this from the guru himself would be much appreciated) and others have suggested doses of up to 400mcg Hup-A and 1200mg Pyritinol as potentially beneficial for special occasions such as taking an exam or an especially heavy study day.

I'm a freelance editor and mature age student part-time in three different courses, so my schedule is all over the place. What I have in mind is a conservative daily dose, adjusted throughout the week depending on what I feel I need. Let me throw around some hypothetical figures, and I'd be interested to know if you think these amounts or general approach would be unwise:

DAILY:
Hup-A 100mcg
Pyr 400mg
Vinpoc 20mg

2-3 DAYS PER WEEK
Hup-A 200mcg
Pyr 400-800mg
Vinpoc 30mg
Vinca 20mg

OCCASIONALLY
Hup-A 300-400mg
Pyr 800-1200mg
Vinpoc 30-40mg
Vinca 20-40mg

Any comments on whether I'm increasing risk (however slight) of any kind of cerebral haemorrhaging event with Pyr/Vincop/Vinca combination?

[littlegreycells]

Vinpocetine for example, does not give added benefits when taken in large amounts. It's also very subtle and not something you notice right away

I gather that's true of most noot's? Of the anecdotes I've read here, there seem to be more people who have had a tangible, immediate response to vinpocetine (alertness/mental energy) than say the racetams. I'd be interested to know your own experiences.

[gcurrie]

Your suggested stack looks within bounds of safety for sure.

I have not noticed any negative *or* positive effects from > 100 mcg of Huperzine per day. As a result, I consider it a waste to take more.

Pyritinol does appear to me to have a wider optimum dose range, so it might be worth adjusting it as needed.

Vinpocetine is a staple for me, and I take 40-60 mg daily.

Vincamine I have tried, and it feels mostly like more vinpocetine. I can *feel* it more, but that's not necessarily a good thing to me. I see no compelling reason to do both on a regular basis. YMMV.

I have not heard that vinpocetine/vincamine (as selective cerebral vasodilators) increase cerebral hemorrhage risk.

Pyritinol doesn't have the same level of vasodilation as v/v. Picamilon is much more of a vasodilator, for example.

I would recommend that you add piracetam. I think the net effect might be more substantial. Just because you don't notice local effects doesn't mean that you won't find yourself spinning fantastic logical webs and thought connections and wondering "Where did THAT come from?"

[littlegreycells]

Hi gcurrie,

Firstly, many thanks for your input. I've read a few of your posts on other threads recently and I like your common-sense approach to assessing the qualities of various noot's.

I have not noticed any negative *or* positive effects from > 100 mcg of Huperzine per day. As a result, I consider it a waste to take more.

I take it that you DO perceive positive effects from 100mcg then?

Pyritinol does appear to me to have a wider optimum dose range, so it might be worth adjusting it as needed.

Do you think there's any problem with bouncing around with pyritinol dosage on a day-to-day basis? I'm toying with the idea of not taking it every day at all, but 400mg-1200mg some days of the week, as I feel the need.

Vinpocetine is a staple for me, and I take 40-60 mg daily. Vincamine I have tried, and it feels mostly like more vinpocetine. I can *feel* it more, but that's not necessarily a good thing to me. I see no compelling reason to do both on a regular basis. YMMV.

Reading through all the anecdotes/info I could find on this forum and others, vinpocetine does seem to work better for most. But I found a few exceptions. LifeMirage, for instance, has said that he personally gets more from vincamine and that it has certain effects beyond vinpocetine. I intend to experiment and hopefully find what works for me. What kind of combined doses of vinpocetine and vincamine did you try before deciding to bypass the vincamine? Did you ever try the vinca by itself?

I have not heard that vinpocetine/vincamine (as selective cerebral vasodilators) increase cerebral hemorrhage risk. Pyritinol doesn't have the same level of vasodilation as v/v. Picamilon is much more of a vasodilator, for example.

There was a discussion about vasodilators (though mainly about gingko) here:

http://www.imminst.o..... clots&st=140

As with most things it seems to come down to not overdoing it one way or the other. I think I'll avoid adding ginkgo to this stack though. I believe Pyritinol significantly increases CBF which mightn't be quite the same thing as the arterial dilation effects of vasodilators. Nevertheless, as all three are having effects on cerebral blood circulation I'm interested in people's opinions of the maximum safe dosage combination. Obviously I want to avoid even the slightest increase to the risk of cerebral hemorrhage.

I would recommend that you add piracetam. I think the net effect might be more substantial. Just because you don't notice local effects doesn't mean that you won't find yourself spinning fantastic logical webs and thought connections and wondering "Where did THAT come from?"

It concerned me that some people have reported sleepiness or lack-of-focus when taking racetams. As I want to target mental energy/focus/stamina, I certainly don't want to complicate my stack with something counterproductive to those aims. Especially as I spent the first half of this year getting on top of a hypothyroid condition (Hashimoto's thyroiditis). Creative thinking is actually my strong suit, and while I'd love to improve it still further, memory, processing speed, etc. remain my priorities. I notice on the thread about which racetams are the best that you've posted a comment that the "spaced out" effect has mainly been reported by people trying aniracetam. Do you think it's less of a concern with piracetam? This might be the key issue for me in determining whether to add it to the stack.

[littlegreycells]

Hmmm... some further research reveals a hell of a lot of different experiences and opinions with regard to piracetam/aniracetam bringing on sleepiness or lack-of-focus:

http://www.imminst.o...T&f=169&t=4249

http://www.imminst.o...t=0

http://forums.bulknu.../topic9708.html

http://www.1fast400....r_1Fast400.html

http://www.1fast400....reviews_id=5323

[LifeMirage]

I have not noticed any negative *or* positive effects from > 100 mcg of Huperzine per day. As a result, I consider it a waste to take more.

Huperzine A is one of the best compounds I have ever taken and given to people for memory.....usually 200 mcg is the minimum dose I've used and strongly recommend, unless you are taking acetylcholine precursors....when i first took Hup A by itself it took 400 mcg at once for 2 days to notice an very impressive instant difference before lowering the dose to a maintenance level.

Everyone is different however and may need a higher or lower dose for ideal effects.

[littlegreycells]

Huperzine A is one of the best compounds I have ever taken and given to people for memory.....usually 200 mcg is the minimum dose I've used and strongly recommend, unless you are taking acetylcholine precursors....when i first took Hup A by itself it took 400 mcg at once for 2 days to notice an very impressive instant difference before lowering the dose to a maintenance level.

Everyone is different however and may need a higher or lower dose for ideal effects.

One interesting aspect about the noots specifically indicated for memory -- Hup-A and Galantamine -- is that they mainly (only?) assist "short-term" memory. Hence their usefulness for Alzheimer's sufferers I suppose. For those of us who are healthy and wanting to imprint our studies into the "long-term" mental files I'm wondering if there are other useful noots (aside from vasopressin/desmopressin, which I can't get hold of where I am without a prescription).

Also, I'm wondering what the standard definition for "short-term memory" is? How long does that actually mean? And can an improvement in that area be translated to an improvement in long-term memory by actual learning techniques... eg. would the usual route of cementing information in long-term memory via revision be enhanced by superior short-term memory?

[ndp2000]

Hmmm... some further research reveals a hell of a lot of different experiences and opinions with regard to piracetam/aniracetam bringing on sleepiness or lack-of-focus:

http://www.imminst.o...T&f=169&t=4249

http://www.imminst.o...t=0

http://forums.bulknu.../topic9708.html

http://www.1fast400....r_1Fast400.html

http://www.1fast400....reviews_id=5323

Yikes, my first lot of piracetam is about to arrive and I was planning to take 2.4-4.8mg per day (along with choline doners of course). But some of these reports are making me baulk. I'm looking for a boost, not something that makes me feel sleepy. Obviously individuals react very differently to piracetam. I know I've read other posts where people have said it can cause insomnia.

[mitkat]

People falling asleep due to piracetam are not in the majority. I wouldn't worry about it too much - chances are you won't. Besides, it's not expensive and worth your time experimenting with. I am one of those people who don't sleep well on it, and it could possibly be giving me a boost - a very low-key, baseline sort of boost.

[xanadu]

All the above are why I say to try one thing at a time until you get the feel of it. Searching for the instant effect and not being patient enough for a racetam to kick in is heading for trouble. Frankly, if you don't have time to carefully evaluate each thing you take, you shouldn't take any of them.

[gcurrie]

In response to littlegreycells:

I do notice 100 mcg of Huperzine-A. More than that *for me* has no apparent effect. YMMV.

Pyritinol appears to have a wide range, in my experience. Therefore I think it would be safe to adjust dosage as needed. Again, YMMV so try it out and see if there are negative effects for you.

Vinpocetine vs. vincamine - based only on my own experience, I don't notice the difference. Too subtle in my physiology. I did try vincamine alone. The only difference was that it seemed to take effect a little sooner - maybe. You should try each out, you may find one IS better for you, or that you can detect the difference and would like the combination.

Vinpocetine and pyritinol are very safe and side-effect free. I saw a reference to some side-effect for vincamine; it may have been on this forum. Do a search rather than rely on my memory - I'm not sure that it was a significant risk, I think it was fairly rare. IIRC, pyritinol is neuroprotective and administered to stroke victims in Europe (sorry, this is just from memory - search it if you want to verify).

Piracetam does have a slight stimulant effect on me, and I don't take it or any racetam after about 8 pm.

I also exercise creativity a lot (musician, writer, usability researcher) and consider the racetams ESSENTIAL. Pyritinol is great for getting the work done or learning, but the racetams open up new doorways for me.

[gcurrie]

Huperzine A is one of the best compounds I have ever taken and given to people for memory.....usually 200 mcg is the minimum dose I've used and strongly recommend, unless you are taking acetylcholine precursors....when i first took Hup A by itself it took 400 mcg at once for 2 days to notice an very impressive instant difference before lowering the dose to a maintenance level.

Everyone is different however and may need a higher or lower dose for ideal effects.

Absolutely. I should modify my earlier statement about 100 mcg. That is what works for me (n = 1). However, LifeMirage has worked with many more people. Where my dose recommendations and his conflict, give more weight to his.

Just remember that you will likely need to adjust that initial dosage up OR down to find your own sweet spot.

[prodigy2020]

For me, piracetam did make me feel a bit drowsy for probably about the first week or so that I was taking it. However, after that, it has since been a vital part of my stack.

It doesn't seem to affect my focus positively or negatively anymore, just makes me think a bit more clearly. I would definite recommend it.

[littlegreycells]

All the above are why I say to try one thing at a time until you get the feel of it. Searching for the instant effect and not being patient enough for a racetam to kick in is heading for trouble. Frankly, if you don't have time to carefully evaluate each thing you take, you shouldn't take any of them.

Hi Xanadu, Sage advice I'm sure. I'd like to emphasise something from my original post in case it's open to misinterpretation. As I said, I'll be trialling the four noots I have, one at a time over the next month. In fact, I've even resisted popping a single pill yet. It's been a very a-typical week schedule-wise with Xmas and what not, so I'm waiting until after New Year so that I can self-assess in the context of a standard routine. It hasn't been easy. I feel like a little kid trying to resist the lure of the lolly jar.... I wonder if there's something I can take to help me stop taking anything for the next few days...

What I meant by looking for things which might give a mental "zap" (probably a poor choice of expression as I do appreciate that all nootropics are fairly subtle in their effects), is that from copious reading of people's experiences/opinions on this forum and others, the noots I've choses are the ones that seem to have some potential to produce perceptible acute effects if taken in reasonable amounts. It's not that I'm looking for results tomorrow. It's more that I'm interested in a stack which I can take in conservative dosages daily and then give myself a little boost in terms of quantitative cognitive functioning -- memory, mental energy and stamina, processing speed -- by increasing dosages (to the upper recommended daily limits, not beyond) when it really matters.

After reading through all the responses here, I am considering purchasing piracetam, but I'm still wary about the tiredness it seems to induce in some people.

Many thanks indeed for your input.

Edited by littlegreycells, 28 December 2005 - 11:48 PM.

[littlegreycells]

Piracetam does have a slight stimulant effect on me, and I don't take it or any racetam after about 8 pm.

I also exercise creativity a lot (musician, writer, usability researcher) and consider the racetams ESSENTIAL. Pyritinol is great for getting the work done or learning, but the racetams open up new doorways for me.

Well, I am starting to consider purchasing some piracetam. How much do you take daily and what piracetam/choline ratio do you find works best for you? Aside from having a slightly stimulating effect, have you ever noticed piracetam contributing to a "lack-of-focus" as others have reported?

Thanks for sharing your experiences with all the other noots; and I do fully appreciate that you are offering them as your personal experiences only.

[gcurrie]

Well, I am starting to consider purchasing some piracetam. How much do you take daily and what piracetam/choline ratio do you find works best for you? Aside from having a slightly stimulating effect, have you ever noticed piracetam contributing to a "lack-of-focus" as others have reported?

Thanks for sharing your experiences with all the other noots; and I do fully appreciate that you are offering them as your personal experiences only.

Piracetam is relatively cheap, so go for it. If you get any side effects, your investment is low so tossing the remainder won't hurt so much.

I take 3-4 g per day. This may be more than I need, but I haven't had time to titrate again now that I'm also taking aniracetam and oxiracetam.

My Piracetam/Alpha GPC ratio is ~ 8:1.

I haven't noticed a lack of focus from piracetam. This does not mean you won't. Some of the tiredness might be lack of choline.

Piracetam is the most researched and safest (no known LD50) of all the nootropics discussed on this forum. I would recommend ANYONE to try it without reservation or consideration of their pre-existing physical conditions.

[kevink]

For me, piracetam did make me feel a bit drowsy for probably about the first week or so that I was taking it. However, after that, it has since been a vital part of my stack.

It doesn't seem to affect my focus positively or negatively anymore, just makes me think a bit more clearly. I would definite recommend it.

Jumping in late just to add to the "data"...The above quote is exactly what my experience has been with Piracetam. I was taking OrthoMind and added Piracetam...knocked me out HARD for the first week or so. No problem at all now.

[littlegreycells]

[quote][quote]
Jumping in late just to add to the "data"...The above quote is exactly what my experience has been with Piracetam. I was taking OrthoMind and added Piracetam...knocked me out HARD for the first week or so. No problem at all now.[/quote]

Thanks for contributing to the thread, kevink. After settling down with it, how would you describe the benefits? How much piracetam (and complementary choline?) do you find you need to take to get the positive effects?

[littlegreycells]

Just harking back to whether there are any risks involved in combining vincamine and vinpocetine in terms of a bleeding/hemorrhage event; I did notice on another thread some posters advising not to combine them with gingko. I wonder if fish oil dosage needs to be watch in this context too (given its inhibiting effects on platelet aggregation). I just bought some fish oil pills (1g) today to add to the stack with the intention of taking up to 3 a day; but perhaps one only would be wiser?

[magr]

What is the EPA/DHA content of those fish oil caps?

I think 1g EPA/DHA combined seems like the general recommendation.

[littlegreycells]

What is the EPA/DHA content of those fish oil caps?

I think 1g EPA/DHA combined seems like the general recommendation.

180mg/120mg: so I guess about 3 a day would be the go. I'm still slightly concerned about stacking things that have anticoagulant type properties though...

[magr]

I can hardly imagine that there could possibly be any anticoagulatory complications with taking 3 fish oil caps and your other nootropics.

[kevink]

Thanks for contributing to the thread, kevink. After settling down with it, how would you describe the benefits? How much piracetam (and complementary choline?) do you find you need to take to get the positive effects?

I'm still figuring out my stack, so the "benefits" are really hard for me to determine because I have several components and I'm taking a synergy approach at this point.

What I do recall about Piracetam is that my "art appreciation" increased. I own no CD's and rarely play radio/MP3 music outside of the gym. But I found myself immersed in the music of TV shows or the radio. It was far richer and I felt I could understand how "artists" experience the world a little differently than me.

I had moments of heightened visual sensitivity. The same as the music - everything just looked "richer" and had more depth.

Confidence and social ease increased - but it's hard to know if that was only Pir or the synergy, at the time, of Ortho Mind, R-Plus and Pir.

Choline is in OrthoMind (500 mg CDP). I tried adding Alpha GPC but it gave me acetylcholine overload (?). I'll try Alpha GPC again some day, but it seemed to really make me jumpy...maybe because of all the AchE supps in my stack.

Right now I'm taking 1600-2400 mg of Pir and 800-1600 mg of Ani.

[nutrovitasub]

Vincamine, an alkaloid obtained from botanicals such as Vinca minor (lesser periwinkle), supports cerebral metabolism by promoting cerebral blood flow and oxygen and glucose utilization. It may also support cognitive function and enhanced memory and concentration.
Suitable for vegetarians and HYPOALLERGENIC.
Do not exceed directed use. Do not take if you have brain disorders, or a history of heart attacks, arrhythmias or strokes, or an electrolyte imbalance (low potassium or low calcium levels). Due to vincamine's physiological properties, use only with your physician's advice if you have been diagnosed with high or low blood pressure. Not for use by pregnant or breastfeeding women. Reduce or discontinue use if nausea occurs. NOT INTENDED FOR USE BY PERSONS UNDER THE AGE OF 18.

For Vincamine Products :
Vincamine

For More Information Nutrovita

[meatwad]

Had to dig far for this thread didn't ya nutro