70 replies to this topic

[psychejunkie]

 

 

Yeah but what about propylhexedrine, levomethamphetamine (which has many names, see Wiki), pseudoephedrine? Those 3 are clear TAAR1 agonists as well.

 

 

None of  them available over the counter here.

 

How the brain decides between effort and reward https://www.scienced...60928150237.htm

http://www.jneurosci...ent/36/39/10002

 

The team found a relevant pattern of activity in three areas of the brain, the supplementary motor area (SMA), dorsal anterior cingulate cortex (dACC) and putamen. Further analysis showed that assessment of effort was centred on the SMA and putamen, with a separate network in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex assessing reward.

The dACC encoded the difference between effort and reward as a single value, likely drawing together the results of the two separate neural circuits, and activity in this area was linked with the degree to which each volunteer's choices were driven by the overall value.

 

 

What can I take from those studies.

 

 

Simply referenced a recent study that might help.

 

apparently your problem with lack of motivation isn't related to Dopamine pathway, as you described your cognitive strain about choosing between Reward and Effort, I guess your problem mostly arise from dACC area which has several Acetylcholine receptors.

High levels of acetylcholine are known to have side effects of decreased motivation, fatigue and other depression-like symptoms.

you might feel better by decreasing your Acetylcholine levels.

Edited by psychejunkie, 02 October 2016 - 04:34 AM.

[Dakman1]

How do you achieve that?

Edited by Dakman1, 02 October 2016 - 07:27 AM.

[psychejunkie]

How do you achieve that?

 

Anterior Cingulate Cortex (ACC) functions as detector for conflicts and errors in general, it is most active at Stroop Test, which is the task of correct choice between RED or RED

 

 

A more comprehensive and recent theory describes the ACC as a more active component and poses that it detects and monitors errors, evaluates the degree of the error, and then suggests an appropriate form of action to be implemented by the motor system. Earlier evidence from electrical studies indicate the ACC has an evaluative component, which is indeed confirmed by fMRI studies. The dorsal and rostral areas of the ACC both seem to be affected by rewards and losses associated with errors. During one study, participants received monetary rewards and losses for correct and incorrect responses, respectively.^[17]

 

having both the studies above (this ^ quote and the recent study => https://www.scienced...0928150237.htm)in mind, you can simply conclude that under-activity of certain parts of ACC results in lack of motivation (poor choices between Reward and Effort).

though, the most active part of ACC in Reward/Effort decisions (according to recent study) is Dorsal part of ACC which is called "dACC"

 

now it is known that Dopamine Pathway are dominant in these areas of frontal lobe, but according to experience, Op has not experienced any improvement by Dopaminergics nor DRI drugs. But bad reactions to Cholinergics and Serotonergics as stated by himself.

 

Dopamine pathway has important role in Reward Seeking and Motivation Regulation, but as you study Serotonin and Acetylcholine pathways, both have Dorsal projections into ACC and both have minor role in Reward Perception.

 

Also, there's Acetylcholine paradox, too much acetylcholine inhibits neurons but little or normal levels have stimulation effects which results in Serotonin and Dopamine release in synaptic cleft. 

 

That's why I achieved the idea of "Too much Acetylcholine"

Edited by psychejunkie, 02 October 2016 - 07:57 AM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Curious.

 

If it wasn't for the cholinergic effects, I'd say you sound as if you have... SLUGGISH COGNITIVE TEMPO!

 

Believe it or not, but sleepiness from stimulants is actually not uncommon - it's a dose-dependent atypical response - it has to do with your own internal COMT-enzymes - if you already have a GOOD, high amount of Dopamine, it's possible that a stimulant will instead just make you tired - until you reach the right dosage.

 

Check the wiki-page, would you say you agree with most of the symptoms?

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia...cognitive_tempo

 

 

 

 

 

looks like low Serotonin; take 5-HTP every morning and see what happens.

 

but just to be sure, Do you get headaches frequently or not? and what level of pain tolerance do you rate yourself?

I don't think I have low Serotonin, I'm confident and optimistic. According to "The mood cure" quiz, I only have low dopamine.

 

You say you are not depressed, but you may be able to treat standalone apathy with an SNRI or even an NDRI like bupropion. Motivation has a lot to do with the adrenal gland and getting that norepinephrine up is important. The question is whether you'll have to couple it with a CNS dopaminergic or CNS serotonergic (avoiding peripheral types like precursors) keeping it selective to the areas of the brain that are important.

I know that's a loaded response, but you have a lot of question marks about yourself that I can't possibly answer so specifically. I can treat you like I would an indecisive girl and just list off a thousand options until you don't shoot one down...

But... I think you'll be more efficient if you just do it yourself.

Can you list off a couple dozen drugs you'd like to try? Add to that list Zembrin+caffeine, an NRI, an SNRI, and an NDRI.

 

I did try Bupropion 2 times, the first time I took 150mg Bupropion + 1.5g tyrosine + piracetam, and I felt lethargy, very sleepy, horrible. I think it was because of the tyrosine the next day I took only bupropion and piracetam and did not notice noticeable effects. I think I'll try it again.

 

Which substance would you recommend for me? I've tried Selegiline, Tianeptine (Stablon), Sulbutiamine, Phenibut yet they do not help.

 

P/s: I also feel uncomfortable when drink coffee, and the crash afterward makes me sleepy, tired.

 

 

Confident & Optimistic? it isn't that simple!

Also, if you have low Dopamine you'd not have strong sexual drive.

 

Usually low Serotonin circulation causes: High Acetylcholine, Constipation, Strong sexual drive, High risk taking, Insomnia and Low motivation.

and high Acetylcholine symptoms are usually: Muscle weakness, Tiredness, Agitation associated with Dysphoria, Intelligent but Poor Common sense, Anhedonia or Blunt emotions, Itching and Low Heart-rate.

Low Serotonin (Low Inhibitory) and High Acetylcholine (High Inhibitory) might cause intolerance for Stimulants and Cholinergics (I am not 100% sure about this, personal assumption!)

 

anyway, I still suggesting 5-HTP at least for 4 weeks and see what happens.

 

 

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

How do you achieve that?

 

Anterior Cingulate Cortex (ACC) functions as detector for conflicts and errors in general, it is most active at Stroop Test, which is the task of correct choice between RED or RED

 

 

A more comprehensive and recent theory describes the ACC as a more active component and poses that it detects and monitors errors, evaluates the degree of the error, and then suggests an appropriate form of action to be implemented by the motor system. Earlier evidence from electrical studies indicate the ACC has an evaluative component, which is indeed confirmed by fMRI studies. The dorsal and rostral areas of the ACC both seem to be affected by rewards and losses associated with errors. During one study, participants received monetary rewards and losses for correct and incorrect responses, respectively.^[17]

 

having both the studies above (this ^ quote and the recent study => https://www.scienced...0928150237.htm)in mind, you can simply conclude that under-activity of certain parts of ACC results in lack of motivation (poor choices between Reward and Effort).

though, the most active part of ACC in Reward/Effort decisions (according to recent study) is Dorsal part of ACC which is called "dACC"

 

now it is known that Dopamine Pathway are dominant in these areas of frontal lobe, but according to experience, Op has not experienced any improvement by Dopaminergics nor DRI drugs. But bad reactions to Cholinergics and Serotonergics as stated by himself.

 

Dopamine pathway has important role in Reward Seeking and Motivation Regulation, but as you study Serotonin and Acetylcholine pathways, both have Dorsal projections into ACC and both have minor role in Reward Perception.

 

Also, there's Acetylcholine paradox, too much acetylcholine inhibits neurons but little or normal levels have stimulation effects which results in Serotonin and Dopamine release in synaptic cleft. 

 

That's why I achieved the idea of "Too much Acetylcholine"

 

 

Fascinating... the ACC is being looked into by a fellow trying to invent treatments for Borderline Personality Disorder - using his own previous work on the metabolite of Paracetamol/Acetaminophen - what, if any, effect does manipulation of the Cannabinoid receptors in the ACC have on Acetylcholine activity? The reason I ask, is because his idea is to target the ACC because AM404 - the metabolite - have been noted to impair both fear, pain and overall emotional response.

 

IMHO, I've always felt he's barking up the wrong tree with the ACC, since it's the equivalent of treating symptoms, and not the cause - Borderline seems to, according to my own research, be caused by a faulty Fronto-Amygdal loop, connected to abnormalities in cholinergic production and neurons.

 

But could manipulation of the ACC provide relief for the symptoms of BPD after all? Through a downstream activity.

 

Btw, once I really get better, I'm going to start a group buy for AM404 - I have a friend with Neuropathic pain, and he could really, really use AM404 to find LEGAL relief from an absolutely crippling disease. = ) (he's a strong responder of THC pain-relief, which is actually caused by the exact same pathway - THC is a direct agonist of cannabinoid-receptors in the ACC, while Paracetamol is an INdirect agonist, through an SCRI-function - Selective Cannabinoid Reuptake Inhibitor)

[psychejunkie]

Fascinating... the ACC is being looked into by a fellow trying to invent treatments for Borderline Personality Disorder - using his own previous work on the metabolite of Paracetamol/Acetaminophen - what, if any, effect does manipulation of the Cannabinoid receptors in the ACC have on Acetylcholine activity? The reason I ask, is because his idea is to target the ACC because AM404 - the metabolite - have been noted to impair both fear, pain and overall emotional response.

 

 

 

IMHO, I've always felt he's barking up the wrong tree with the ACC, since it's the equivalent of treating symptoms, and not the cause - Borderline seems to, according to my own research, be caused by a faulty Fronto-Amygdal loop, connected to abnormalities in cholinergic production and neurons.

 

But could manipulation of the ACC provide relief for the symptoms of BPD after all? Through a downstream activity.

 

Btw, once I really get better, I'm going to start a group buy for AM404 - I have a friend with Neuropathic pain, and he could really, really use AM404 to find LEGAL relief from an absolutely crippling disease. = ) (he's a strong responder of THC pain-relief, which is actually caused by the exact same pathway - THC is a direct agonist of cannabinoid-receptors in the ACC, while Paracetamol is an INdirect agonist, through an SCRI-function - Selective Cannabinoid Reuptake Inhibitor)

 

 

Yeah! Interesting actually..

this reminded me of "long-term use of marijuana" side effect: Lack of Motivation. now it makes sense!

[psychejunkie]

How do you achieve that?

 

By avoiding Choline sources, increasing water intake and Serotonin (5-HTP)

[tronatula2]

 

Curious.

 

If it wasn't for the cholinergic effects, I'd say you sound as if you have... SLUGGISH COGNITIVE TEMPO!

 

Believe it or not, but sleepiness from stimulants is actually not uncommon - it's a dose-dependent atypical response - it has to do with your own internal COMT-enzymes - if you already have a GOOD, high amount of Dopamine, it's possible that a stimulant will instead just make you tired - until you reach the right dosage.

 

Check the wiki-page, would you say you agree with most of the symptoms?

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia...cognitive_tempo

 

 

 

 

 

• Daydreaming excessively  YES
• Easily confused                  NO
• Spacey or 'in a fog'            NO
• Mind seems to be elsewhere      NO
• Stares blankly into space       YES
• Slow moving or sluggish        NO
• Lethargic or more tired than others   NO
• Trouble staying awake or alert in boring situations NO

• Underactive or less energetic than others   YES
• Sleepy or drowsy during the day   NO
• Gets lost in own thoughts  YES
• Apathetic or withdrawn, less engaged in activities   YES
• Loses train of thoughts  YES
• Forgets what he/she was going to say    YES
• Hard time putting thoughts into words  YES
• Processes information not as quickly/accurately   NO

So 8/16 50%, am I considered having this disease?

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

 

Curious.

 

If it wasn't for the cholinergic effects, I'd say you sound as if you have... SLUGGISH COGNITIVE TEMPO!

 

Believe it or not, but sleepiness from stimulants is actually not uncommon - it's a dose-dependent atypical response - it has to do with your own internal COMT-enzymes - if you already have a GOOD, high amount of Dopamine, it's possible that a stimulant will instead just make you tired - until you reach the right dosage.

 

Check the wiki-page, would you say you agree with most of the symptoms?

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia...cognitive_tempo

 

 

 

 

 

• Daydreaming excessively  YES
• Easily confused                  NO
• Spacey or 'in a fog'            NO
• Mind seems to be elsewhere      NO
• Stares blankly into space       YES
• Slow moving or sluggish        NO
• Lethargic or more tired than others   NO
• Trouble staying awake or alert in boring situations NO

• Underactive or less energetic than others   YES
• Sleepy or drowsy during the day   NO
• Gets lost in own thoughts  YES
• Apathetic or withdrawn, less engaged in activities   YES
• Loses train of thoughts  YES
• Forgets what he/she was going to say    YES
• Hard time putting thoughts into words  YES
• Processes information not as quickly/accurately   NO

So 8/16 50%, am I considered having this disease?

 

 

Uhh... good question! Currently spacing out because of a long run and brainfog from MagLT, so finding it hard to say much regarding this.

 

I believe that if you show 6 or more symptoms then you're in the dangerzone and probably need to get it properly checked at - much like with ADHD.

 

However, I also believe that there are certain symptoms which are more important... and then there's the question if you've had the symptoms since birth or very young age - that would be a strong indicator as well.

 

Currently my CDD + brainfog makes it impossible to check that, so I hope that you, or someone else, can dig up the info for you.
 

[tronatula2]

Tried Amazon Therapeutics Catuaba 2 times (15 drops) and got nothing, completely crap. Nowadays I'm experimenting with deer velvet and have good results so far.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

According to this Wikipedia page, Coluracetam should reduce choline levels by being a reuptake enhancer (or not?)

https://en.wikipedia...uptake_enhancer

"Coluracetam is a choline-reuptake enhancer."