<BJKlein> Official Chat Begins Now
<BJKlein> On February 23, 2003 at 8:00 PM EST the Immortality Institute will hold a special one-hour, closely moderated chat to discuss the hotly debated issue of cloning. How important is this debate? Will a ban on cloning inhibit our chances of living forever? Members will explore the impact of a ban on reproductive and/or therapeutic cloning. Plus, we'll discuss the current advancements being made in anti-aging cloning research
<PD> Shouldn't official chat b e in the other channel?
<BJKlein> Is cloning important to physical immortality?
<Ocsrazor> only in the short term
<Ocsrazor> and only at the cell level, not the whole organism
<MitchH> is therapeutic cloning included in the scope of your question then, BJ?
<BJKlein> Yes, MitchH.. I probably should have distinguished..
<MitchH> then my answer is the same as Ocsrazor: only in the short term.
<BJKlein> Which is more important in the short term?
<MitchH> therapeutic, of course
<Ocsrazor> agreed
<Ocsrazor> whole organism is not particularly important for anything except reproduction
<MitchH> unless we were so good at molding a new body as to use it as a replacement for an existing mind, without kicking out a new mind... and at that point, we obviously have the technology to do things more elegantly.
<BJKlein> Which therapeutic cloning advances will be most beneficial to extending lifespan?
<MitchH> regenerating tired old organs, I suspect.
<Ocsrazor> STEM CELL REPLACEMENT!
<MitchH> with stem cells
<Ocsrazor> definitely
<BJKlein> Is there work being done now?
<MitchH> yes
<Ocsrazor> human genome sciences
<ravi1> i have heard predictions from some reseachers that superman will be able to walk in 10 ywars with stem cell reseach
<Ocsrazor> www.hgsi.com
<BJKlein> How successful has the stem cell work been at HGSI (Human Genome Sciences)
<Ocsrazor> proprietary info, they are keeping it quiet
<Ocsrazor> but they have set up a very agressive research program
<Ocsrazor> Geron was trying too, but I am not confident in their capabilities
<MitchH> Look for many kinds of paralysis, diabetes, and age-related tissue failures to be effectively "cured" through relatively cheap treatments using stem cells or alternatives coaxed from other adult tissues within 15 years.
<Ocsrazor> MIke West's company also has a very strong program, but less well funded than HGSI
<BJKlein> Mike West: Advanced Cell Tech
<BJKlein> Will we see a ban on reproductive cloning?
<BJKlein> in the united states?
<MitchH> But even more interesting than curing paralytics, I think, will be Alzheimers treatments involving stem cells or alternatives
<MitchH> yes
<ravi1> which countries do u think will not ban reproductive cloning
<Ocsrazor> It has already been done for Parkinsons at UCLA
<Ocsrazor> about 2.5 yrs ago
<Ocsrazor> complete success, patient was normal
<BJKlein> How successful was the UCLA program?
<Ocsrazor> after the operation
<MitchH> I think an effective Alzheimers treatment may well benefit others as well, raising ethical questions about who should get a treatment to preserve their youthful minds or (very modestly) improve them.
<Ocsrazor> alzheimer's is much harder because it is probably a multi-disease problem
<Ocsrazor> so you will need to add cells all over the brain
<MitchH> perhaps. I'll admit I'm not an expert.
<Ocsrazor> you see cell loss from the whole brain Mitch...
<Ocsrazor> so you are going to have to figure out how to get cells everywhere
<Ocsrazor> Parkinson's occurs in a very specific region which makes it easier to attack
<MitchH> yes, but if I'm not mistaken, gains have been made in understanding the brain's existing methods of regenerating neurons (after people got over the shock of discovering that adult brains can actually do this)
<Ocsrazor> definitely
<MitchH> so I'm thinking that some Alzheimers treatments may well restore or boost the ailing system in the brain responsible for this... and that this type of treatment could be generally beneficial to other adults as well.
<Ocsrazor> yep, Alzheimers seems to be one of the general indicators of aging
<Ocsrazor> everybody gets it at some point
<Ocsrazor> depends if you live long enough
<MitchH> if they live that long... which they will, if they can keep their other organs healthy
<Ocsrazor> yep
<Guest> What percentage of the populations gets alzheimers before age 70?.
<MitchH> ask google
<Ocsrazor> Gonna have to Google that one
<Ocsrazor> ;^)
<Guest> gotcha!
<Guest> lol
<tmoenk> Something that is not often considered is how technologies created in order to attain a certain ends, diffuse into other applications. (Such as where NASA and our current level of technology in general is concerned.
<MitchH> this is one of the central dillemas of futurism in general, tmoenk
<tmoenk> Does anyone know if the technologies that are being created in cloning research are diffusing into other areas and how?
<Ocsrazor> YES! tissue engineering
<Ocsrazor> creating hybrid artificial organs
<MitchH> ooh. tell me more
<Ocsrazor> with stem cells covering the surface
<Ocsrazor> and bio-friendly materials to form a framework
<Ocsrazor> bladders have been done...
<MitchH> gotcha; like the cartilage structure for an artificial ear
<Ocsrazor> people are working on harder organs like kidneys and hearts
<Ocsrazor> liver I believe is close to being completed as well
<Ocsrazor> alot of it is cellular programing
<Ocsrazor> giving the right molecular cues to get the setup correct
<tmoenk> I hadn't realized that we'd progressed so far in this field.
<MitchH> a question from my wife: how useful do you suspect it will be to have a newboorn's umbilical stem cells "banked"? Such services are already offered, but expensive.
<DiamondAgeMessiah> if anyone's interested, i can check scholarly journals and the govt for statistics and such.
<DiamondAgeMessiah> one of the joys of being a college student, i have access to stuff that 'normal people' don't.
<Ocsrazor> Just for general info, one of the best tools out there that is available to the public is...
<BJKlein> DiamondAgeMessiah: that's be excellent. Thanks
<Ocsrazor> ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
<Ocsrazor> national librar of medicine
<DiamondAgeMessiah> just pm me with specific questions and i'll check the sources, i'm already logged into the proxy so it shouldn't take too long.
<Ocsrazor> using medline Diamond?
<DiamondAgeMessiah> actually at the moment i'm looking into chomsky and the middle east. but i'm sure there are medical journals and statistics i can check.
<BJKlein> btw.. let's keep noncloning discussion in #immortal if at all possible
<DiamondAgeMessiah> sorry, that is all
<BJKlein> np..
<Ocsrazor> OK, so earlier question, will it be banned?
<BJKlein> this is a tester night
<Ocsrazor> I think yes with the current admin in power
<BJKlein> will this have a larg impact on lifespan issues?
<tmoenk> The question we should ask is, should it be banned?
<Ocsrazor> I think most of us here already have a pretty strong NO opinion on that one.
<Ocsrazor> Why would you want to ban the technology....
<tmoenk> Good question.
<Ocsrazor> there is no solid moral foundation for wanting to ban it
<mind1> I do not think there will be a full ban on cloning
<Ocsrazor> it is knee jerk "yuck factor" not anything well thought out
<MitchH> the only legitimate issue right now is the current technical difficulties in cloning (very high failure rate, premature death, gigantism etc. in animals)
<Taile> the only "moral" argument I have heard is from a Christian: he said that it was "playing God"
<Taile> but that is no argument to me
<Taile> no worthy argument that is
<Ocsrazor> Exactly, that statement is semantically null
<MitchH> If Whoopie Goldberg and Jim Carrey can play God, I want to too.
<Taile> but, in reality, cloning is almost exactly like having a twin...
<Taile> the only difference being that twins are produced in the womb, clones are created after the first is born...intelligently
<Taile> bad word order
<Taile> put intelligently after "created"
<Ocsrazor> yes, that is one of the best arguments to use with the general public
<Ocsrazor> makes it seem more "natural"
<BJKlein> How did Jim Carrey play god?
<Ocsrazor> which is another semantically null word ;^)
<Ocsrazor> BRUCE ALMIGHTY
<Ocsrazor> new movie
<BJKlein> ahh.. my hermitness is showing
<Ocsrazor> this spring I believe
<Taile> hehe
<BJKlein> I was thinking he had a genetically designed baby or something
<Taile> it looks goofy
<Ocsrazor> I'll be the taskmaster now BJ -> back on topic
<Guest> Jim Carrey in a "goofy" movie?
<BJKlein> Thanks
<Ocsrazor> There is an important reason we should defend whole person cloning though...
<Ocsrazor> even thought it doesn
<Taile> what's this reason you are considering?
<Ocsrazor> doesn't have a technological impact on longevity
<Guest> Every person signed up for a cryonics neuro should be concerned about the future of whole body cloning.
<Ocsrazor> to establish legal precedent that individuals have the right to control their own biological destiny
<Ocsrazor> exactly guest
<Ocsrazor> but only from a legal standpoint guest
<Guest> John_Ventureville nick/
<Guest> damn
<BJKlein> type /nick John
<Guest> thanks
<BJKlein> I don't believe cloning will be important after nanotech and cryonics reanimation..
<Ocsrazor> Thats where I was going BJ
<BJKlein> if we're at that point.. cloning will be a old school
<BJKlein> but in principle it's important to keep all options open
<Taile> hehe, cloning is like hacking....nanotech is like software development
<Lukian> lmao
<Ocsrazor> yes Lukian?
<Lukian> i liked that comparison
<Guest> So a body for a cryonics neuro could be made from the "ground up" with mature nanotech?
*Mind* There is a function on my task bar that allows me to "tile" the windows
<Ocsrazor> excactly, the whole idea that bodies would have to be cloned is outdated
<BJKlein> in theory, if you can fix the freezing damage in the brain... growing a body from the ground up will be easy..
*Mind* but when I do this the line where I type in comments gets covered up
Mind is ~Java@c68.113.231.173.stp.wi.charter.com * irc.extropy.org
Mind on #immortal
Mind using irc.lucifer.com [127.0.0.1] Excalibur IRCd
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<mind1> Cloning is becoming such a diverse field that it will be hard to ban all of it
<BJKlein> I agree mind1..
<Ocsrazor> banning any of it is not a good precedent though
<BJKlein> most politicians don't understand what it really means to clone.. their reaction to it is dangerious
<mind1> right
<Ocsrazor> in general, Gov control of science is usually done extremely poorly
<Guest> Even if it is banned in the U.S., research will continue in other nations.
<mind1> there should be some sort of oversight though...don't you think
<Guest> I would say especially in the eastern world.
<mind1> like an industry ethics board or something
*tmoenk* Has laz posted in the forum?
<Taile> I think a lot of problems if the education system were better.
<Taile> would be solved*
<Ocsrazor> nonprofit mind, not big gov
<mind1> right...that is what I am thinking
<MitchH> I wish reproductive cloning would be considered a "fertility procedure" for the purpose of FDA approval; when scientists make a compelling case for being able to avoid current technical problems, it should be given the green light.
<Taile> no knowledge should be held from an intelligent...responsible person
<Taile> if everyone in the US were responsible and intelligent, there'd be no need to hide information (and no laws against any research)
<MitchH> Any other reasons for banning reproductive cloning should be considered very similar to philosophical/religious differences on the abortion issue; in that case, it is for the woman to decide. It should be the same for cloning.
<mind1> the restriction of information has caused most of the problems (wars and such) throughout human history
<Taile> and people, imo, are stupid...
<Taile> except for a select few
<Taile> that is induced in early childhood...
<Lazarus_Long1> No society that has ever atempted to control access to information has ever been able to survive
<Taile> kids are forced to do homework...go to school...yadayada
<Taile> they are turned off from knowledge...they end of looking down on intelligence
<Taile> "You're a nerd, you're too smart..."
<mind1> If people had a better science education...I doubt there would be much resistance to cloning
<MitchH> I disagree; most resistance is religious in nature, if not in specific content. IMO.
<MitchH> But yes, I think dispelling the hollywood image of cloning and replacing it with the boring reality would be very helpful.
<Lazarus_Long1> If people were better educated they also wuoldn' fall for the propagandistic crap that unites one group against another
<Taile> religion is a big problem...again induced by stupidity
<mind1> right laz
<mind1> I have always said...the more communication around the world...the less problems there will be
<Guest> Lazarus, read the extropian list lately?
<Guest> lol
<Lazarus_Long1> No, why?
<Guest> Well educated people who are still very nationalistic.
<Taile> hey, I thought of an idea
<mind1> ??
* BJKlein nudges us back to cloning
<Guest> And while this is offtopic, I do feel Saddam needs to go.
<Taile> you know those fish that christians put on the back of their cars?
<Lazarus_Long1> Being specialized in a nsingle area of refined expertise does not mean well educated
<MitchH> mind1: It has been convincingly argued that the greater communication enabled by the internet has served largely to enhance factionalization; People can always find a "news source" that happens to fit their own peculiar, existing ideologies. They don't have to turn to sources that at least try to keep the illusion of objectivity.
<Lazarus_Long1> Is this Kissinger?
<Taile> and then evolutionists came out with a DARWIN fish
<Taile> and then christians came back with a TRUTH fish eating DARWIN
<Guest> Laz, very true.
<Taile> I want to get a whole school of fish eating each other and put it on the back of my car
<Ocsrazor> that one cracks me up taile, height of irony
<Guest> There are doctors and lawyers who fit the category of uneducated.
<DiamondAgeMessiah> now we just need a stick figure with the word reason written on a club beating the truth fish
<Ocsrazor> truth eating darwin, lol
<DiamondAgeMessiah> er, the xtian fish
<PD> http://www.rof.com
<mind1> anyway...cloning
<Ocsrazor> OK gang, back on topic
<Taile> well, the thing is actually...who is anyone to "objectively" label something as truth...it's only that person's views
<Ocsrazor> yep
<PD> Buy an evolve fish.
<Ocsrazor> other discussions can be taken in room #1
<PD> People will honk at you.
<Taile> haha
<Guest> Taile, I have to disagree with you there.
<Guest> *ontopic now*
<Taile> well, what exactly is there left to discuss about cloning?
<mind1> I feel it is an important intermediate step towards life-extension and intelligence evolution]
<mind1> should not be banned
<Ocsrazor> stem cells, definitely MInd
<Taile> I agree that it shouldnt be banned....
<Ocsrazor> no banning at all
<Taile> but we've already settled on that
<Ocsrazor> write your congressmen immediately
<mind1> What is the main reason for the oppposition?
<mind1> religious views?
<Ocsrazor> another bill is coming up
<Taile> ...once we've settled on a conclusion to a discussion, why rediscuss it repeatedly
<MitchH> the stickier issue; how far should stem cells and other fetal tissues be allowed to organize?
<MitchH> when used for research
<Ocsrazor> its theYuck factor mind
<BJKlein> I agree with MitchH.. it's a holywood depiction of cloning that has people scared
<mind1> I would say stop before cell differentiation
<MitchH> Most people think cloning is done in vats
<BJKlein> MitchH, I think if I were asked point blank.. somewhere in the first three monts
<Ocsrazor> I would say stop before nervous system goes completely active ~2 months
<PD> At least most people didn't find The 6th Day a good movie.
<BJKlein> somewhere before a threshold of responsiviness is reached.. (sentients)
<Taile> I thought it was entertaining
<MitchH> BJ, the problem is that those kinds of time frames may not apply to research cells and tissues, although you might be able to use "the level of organization that would be found in a 3 month fetus" as a rule.
<Taile> but the concept was kinda...dumb
<PD> Hell, Terminator was entertaining, too... But.
<Taile> flashing a whole mind into a brain through the eyes...
<Taile> that's one problem
<mind1> The movie did bring up the issue of who is the real person
<Taile> right, and they're both the real person, imo
<Ocsrazor> my favorite was the michael keaton movie...
<Ocsrazor> multiplicity
<Taile> same biologically and psychologically
<PD> Heh
<PD> I was going to say.
<MitchH> but progressively dumber. that was a fun twist
<mind1> Why would there be a need to carry a clone to 3 months?
<mind1> everything you would need is already there after a couple weeks
<Ocsrazor> more organized tissue is sometimes easier to work with mind
<mind1> oh
<MitchH> mind1: no idea. But suppose you're growing brain tissue, and it's slowly organizing itself into a brain... you need rules about when to stop, I think
<mind1> yes
<Ocsrazor> sometimes you want stem cells to be further developed
<Taile> I am not ...edumacated....
<Taile> what are stem cells used for exactly?
<Ocsrazor> but much research is focused on figuring out how to program stem cells
<Taile> from the name I can only guess they are the most elementary cells...from which all other types of cells in the body originate
<mind1> I just figured our tools are good enough nowadays to work with smaller groups of cells
<Ocsrazor> Taile long discussion...
<Ocsrazor> but you have the general idea
<Taile> oh okay
-> *chanserv* op #immortal2 BJKlein
-ChanServ- Access denied.
<mind1> couldn't we end the development of the entire person and just seperate out the important tissue and grow it in a dish
<Ocsrazor> they are useful because you can grow new organs or replace damaged or aged cells
<mind1> before any nervous system development
<Ocsrazor> we aren;t there yet mind
<Ocsrazor> but hopefully soon
<mind1> I figure the less development of the clone...the less resistence there will be to the practice of cloning
<OmniDo> There we go
<MitchH> mind1: I'm sure you can do a lot of things like that. The problem is simply deciding on what the regulations should say. You can be sure that this is about as politically charged a discussion as you can imagine, so more conservative types are generally *much* happier to just ban it all together.
<MitchH> People hate ambiguity.
<mind1> a "few cells" is much more palatable to the public than a human form
<mind1> at 3 months
<Ocsrazor> do i get my @ Omni ;^)
<OmniDo> 14,1H15eh
<OmniDo> forgot
<OmniDo> 2,8 : ) 0
<BJKlein> sure
<Ocsrazor> thanks!
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1BJKlein14,1)}> 0 Im inclined to ask, if this is a moderated discussion, who are the lead speakers?
<BJKlein> everyone tonight
<OmniDo> ah
<Ocsrazor> its a free for all ;^)
<OmniDo> there
<OmniDo> 14,1H15eh
<BJKlein> all are voiced.. however, next week we'll work this out beforehand
<OmniDo> 14,1N15o 14P15roblem
[OmniDo SOUND]
<OmniDo> My apologies for arriving late.
<mind1> So there will be a speaker...and then a Q&A session
<mind1> is that the type of format you are thinking about
<BJKlein> next week we'll determin the speakers.. and others can ask questions from #immortal
<OmniDo> So where is the discussion? Has the issue of advantages/drawbacks been discussed? Or the issue of religious and theological oppression/intervention been addressed?
<OmniDo> etc..
<BJKlein> we've discussed the issue of is cloning important to physical immortality
<OmniDo> 14,1H15rmmm...
<OmniDo> And what conclusion was reached>
<mind1> haven't disscussed advantages/disadvantages yet
<mind1> or maybe I missed that part
<Ocsrazor> whole person cloning is prob. not necessary for immortality Omni
<mind1> right
<BJKlein> technically it's not that important.. but as a general symbolic issue it's important
<Ocsrazor> Yep, from legal standpoint
<Ocsrazor> should fight against any intrusion of individual biological rights
<Guest> To me it is a human rights/human suffering issue.
<PD> Why wouldn't you want to clone an entire organism anyway, except for breeding etc?
<PD> I mean
<PD> why *would* u
<OmniDo> The research areas are enormous
<Ocsrazor> it is expensive!
<Ocsrazor> and time consuming
<BJKlein> PD, parents who have lost a child
<OmniDo> Cloning allows for new systematic types of observation and experimentation, which are otherwise nearly impossible.
<OmniDo> Cloning would assist Ocsrazor's research, and the research of similar groups as well.
<PD> Ok, but cloning what?
<PD> To what stages of development?
<OmniDo> Any or all applicable cells
<OmniDo> Ideally, to study a cells "roots" per say, it is best to clone for the development of fetal stem cells.
<MitchH> The only really "creepy" use for cloning that is even theoretically possible right now (that I can think of) would probably be wealthy persons growing a brain-dead clone of themselves to maturity to harvest the organs if they eventually needed them.
<PD> Heh
<OmniDo> Then with extensive and immaculate observation, those new and young cells can have their secrets exposed, and ther functions unlocked.
<PD> It's more efficient to clone organs, I would think.
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1MitchH14,1)}> 0 And that idea is quite feasible, as well as useful
<Guest> Or to even try to put their head/brain into it.
<Ocsrazor> but not possible YET PD, but soon
<MitchH> well, it's not as feasible as you would think. Bodies on bed-rest don't do all that great in the long term.
<PD> Yes, but cloning brainless organ harvest zombies isn't possible yet, either.
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1PD14,1)}> 0 the problem with cloning existing organs is the cellular age clock. If you clone a cell that is from a 50yr old, it will produce copies that behave like 50 yr old cells.
<Ocsrazor> It probabLy is PD
<PD> Really
<OmniDo> But if you clone a cell from a fetus, it will behave like fetal cells
<mind1> so you would probably want to start some fresh stems cells
<mind1> of your own
<Lazarus_Long1> Unles the cancer research shows us how to reset the clock
<Ocsrazor> I can't see any technical reason why you couldn't do it PD
<PD> OmniDo, that's what I meant
<Guest> What I find horrible are "organ-nappers" who kidnap/kill people to remove organs for the black market.
<MitchH> Guest: mostly, if not entirely, an urban legend.
<OmniDo> This is one reason why it is wise to take a blood sample of yourself at a young age; say 16-19 and keep it for later use. When DNA integration is used for cloning, the resulting cloned cells will be the age of the blood/DNA sample.
<Ocsrazor> Michael Wests group has already learned how to reset the clock
<Guest> Mitch, in the third world I bet it is very real.
* PD seems to remember hearing a technical reason but can't remember what it was.
<Lazarus_Long1> That is happenning inLatin America already and in China they jsut force cetain prisoners to provide organs too
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1Ocsrazor14,1)}> 0 To answer Michael: Resetting the clock requires optimizing the DNA.
<MitchH> Guest: in the third world, people line up to sell their kidneys at dirt cheap prices. There is little need for a black market of kidnapped organs.
<Rotaerk> there should be a way to completely destroy the clock...so you dont have to reset every 70 years or so
<Ocsrazor> it has already been done Omni
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1Rotaerk14,1)}> 0 There is, but its complicated
<Guest> Why buy the organs when you can simply seize them??
<MitchH> So you know what you're getting. blood/tissue type, healthiness, etc.
<mind1> Where can I read about resetting the clock
<OmniDo> To stop the clock, you have to eliminate all the processes that cause the the effects of the "clock" to begin with.
<Lazarus_Long1> Destroying the clock could just result in widespread malignancy
<Rotaerk> oh well, I must go
<Lazarus_Long1> I suggest looking for a way to manipulate "rate"
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1Lazarus_Long114,1)}> 0 Correct. The only solution would be not to destroy it, but rather to just "Reset" it.
<Ocsrazor> search for papers by michael west or go to the advanced cell tech web site MIND
<MitchH> Guest: I wouldn't be surprised if it's been done, but this is one particular rumor that has actually been studied and turned out to be a classic case of urban legends with little or no actual persons with firsthand knowledge.
<Lazarus_Long1> or change the "period
<mind1> ok
<mind1> thanks
<Ocsrazor> Mitch it was definitively done two years ago
<Lazarus_Long1> ä clock is based on a meter, even a chemical clock
<Ocsrazor> that is the difference between the more recent clones and Dolly
<Ocsrazor> dolly had shortened telomeres...
<MitchH> Ocs: the study of the rumor? Or a verifiable case of organ kidnapping?
<Lazarus_Long1> figure out how to manipulate the meter and you can slow down the phase shifting
<Ocsrazor> sorry mitch, confused topics
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1Lazarus_Long114,1)}> 0 An idea I postulated years ago; (and ironically has since then been put into practice) is the idea of Retro-RNA re-infusion. A bit complicated and expensive, but possible; this method takes an individuals DNA as it was at a younger age, and then acts like a retro virus, infecting all the cells of the host and "switching" their existing "Clocks"
<Lazarus_Long1> that is the reset option, and theoretically is a parallel approach
<OmniDo> The cells begin mitosis at faster intervals, and essentially replace their older versions with "younger" ones, based upon the prior DNA.
<OmniDo> Not cost effective at present though.
<mind1> What has stopped this method from being applied
<MitchH> Guest: I will say this: some organ buyers in the third world have been known to be quite shady and shirk some or all of the expected payment and vanish. So, effectively, some kidnapping is for sure being done... but only to people who had some idea of the risk.
<Lazarus_Long1> but once reste wouldn' it be also concievable to slow down the process so that decades equal centuries of cellular decay
<Ocsrazor> LAZ what do phase shifting and meter have to do with cells?
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1mind114,1)}> 0 Expenses
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1Lazarus_Long114,1)}> 0 Its possible. If the process could be made as simple as an injection of yer own "youth stuff" every 2 years or so, in theory, your cells would never age past that point. You'd be within a "bubble" of youth.
<Ocsrazor> Omni that is going to have to be stem cells
<mind1> That would be a problem for people already over 50
<OmniDo> However this doesnt prevent the effects of glucose browning, nor cause stem cells or virgin B cells to regenerate.
<Lazarus_Long1> As I said ALL clocks and that includes chemical processes have a form of a meter that they are dependent on to determine the rate between phases of development, infancy to puberty, to maturity to deterioration and death
<Ocsrazor> but telomeres are not really a chemical clock in that sense
<OmniDo> They are only part of it.
<OmniDo> But they do make up one of the larger "gears" so to speak, that makes that clock tick.
<Lazarus_Long1> They are able to tell how many times they have reproduced
<mind1> An older person would have to produce new stems cells...in order to get the youth stuff again...wouldn't they?
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1mind114,1)}> 0 Yes.
<Ocsrazor> they only come into play for rapidly dividing cells, which are a small part of the aging process
<Ocsrazor> yes mind
<mind1> ok
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1Ocsrazor14,1)}> 0 Im more concerned with stopping free-radical damage, as well as glucose browning.
<Lazarus_Long1> Neurons don' truly divide and they don' age the same way as the rest of the body
<Ocsrazor> the clock metaphor is actually pretty poor
<OmniDo> The glucose browning is a yearly compounding problem, regardless of physical age.
<Ocsrazor> they do age the same way as most of the rest of the body
<Ocsrazor> most of the body ages by accumulated damage
<Lazarus_Long1> no they don' they are on or off. You go through life with a dimminshing count established in infancy
<Ocsrazor> only immune and some epithelial types age by telomeres
<Ocsrazor> are affected by telomeres
<mind1> The clock metaphor is not totally implausible though...because we go through stages of development...all of us...at generally the same rate
<Lazarus_Long1> Skin ages, organs age, pancreatic tissues lose the ability to produce insulin
<OmniDo> One thing Id like to point out: With the use of cloning, many of these questions can be easily answered because the cost will eventually become minute. When humans have a nearly endless supply of cells to observe, test, and experiment with, we'll then be equipped with the tools to unlock the clock.
<Ocsrazor> most organ aging is oxidative damage induced
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1Ocsrazor14,1)}> 0 Yes. Damn free radicals, heh
<OmniDo> Several million codes of DNA are damaged daily from that. Good thing our body is ½ way decent at repair.
<Lazarus_Long1> Pancreatic tissue isn' about oxidation it is a lose of ability due to the failure of insulin production. It appears more lie a exahusted process then accumulated damge
<Ocsrazor> very little proof for telomere causes of aging in the literature
<mind1> don't hormonal changes play a part in aging...I mean, if we could keep the same hormonal balance that we had at the height of puberty...wouldn't we remain at that biological age (assuming we could also prevent free radical damage and glucose browning
<OmniDo> But there lies the key issue: "Repair." The human body doesnt repair anything really. It merely "replaces" what was destroyed, in an attempt to yield the results of something repaired. By manipulating DNA, we are effectively endowing the body with a means to repair itself, something it doesnt do.
<BJKlein> umm.. question: so all free radical damage is damage to the DNA right/
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1BJKlein14,1)}> 0 no
<OmniDo> Free radical damage effects cellular membranes, dna, etc..
<OmniDo> DNA is most prone due to its fragility.
<Lazarus_Long1> A woman is born with all the eggs she will ever have in life, none are produced even druing puberty, there are some organ functins like the pancreas that appear to mimic this
<BJKlein> but if we're replacing cells in the body over time.. cells really shouldn't be important right?
<BJKlein> just the DNA information.. other than for the brain cells
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1Lazarus_Long114,1)}> 0 But those eggs have an expiration date, no matter how well they are protected.
<Lazarus_Long1> Neurons as well are not produced after an initial period in infancy
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1BJKlein14,1)}> 0 Correct, With the exception of neurons
<Lazarus_Long1> True Omnido, I am using it as an example of a different process at work than oxidation
<Ocsrazor> Aging is a multi disease state with many different mechanism
<Ocsrazor> but the first causes you see are most likely oxidation based
<OmniDo> If it all boils down to chemistry and cellular biology (not saying that alternative explainations are invalid), then there are really only 2 parts of the "human" that need to be protected. 1 is the DNA, the other is the cognitive configuration of each persons neural archetecture, namely, their minds.
<Lazarus_Long1> That I agree with Ocs
<Ocsrazor> heart disease cancer etc
<Ocsrazor> only the oldest old have to worry about telomeres
<OmniDo> The rest are expendble and replaceable.
<BJKlein> OmniDo: I agree with that
<Lazarus_Long1> I earlier when talking about the phase aspect of the clock also indictaed that there are perhaps long ccyles and chort ones
<OmniDo> Im not too concerned with the skin cells that I lost last year, nor the hair that falls out daily.
<OmniDo> 14,1H15eh
<Lazarus_Long1> short&
<Ocsrazor> that is a hormone control problem Omni ;^)
<Lazarus_Long1> circadian rhythm is predicated on a short cycle but puberty depends on long cycle cellular memory
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1Ocsrazor14,1)}> 0 heh
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15,1Lazarus_Long114,1)}> 0 And default established conditions, as well as enviornmental influence.
<OmniDo> Children are advancing and developing faster nowadays than their ancestors
<Lazarus_Long1> not significantly
<Ocsrazor> that is most likely dietary
<BJKlein> well this has digressed into an anti aging discussion.. but.. I think we've covered cloining and can call the official chat now closed..
<OmniDo> 14,1H15eh
<BJKlein> if I hear a second?
<Lazarus_Long1> they are surviving longer but as an average the influence of early onset puberty is still not very great, and is related to environment
<Ocsrazor> yep, wow way off topic
<Ocsrazor> 2nd
<mind1> But if I replaced all my cells (except nuerons) I would have an old mind with a young body....are you also suggesting replacing the nuerons too
<OmniDo> 3rd
<BJKlein> Chat is now officially closed..
