6 replies to this topic

[Centurion]

Hi everyone. The reason behind my post is in some ways simple and in some ways complex. To put it simply, I have a very visceral, kneejerk reaction of fear toward the area of nootropics, the idea of a pill having an effect on mental performance. Yet also I find a certain allure in the supposed benefits. I am a reasonably intelligent person, I study at a good UK university and find I am doing well, yet I do suffer now and again from transient bouts of mental fatigue, which at times can be totally debilitating, leaving me a slow minded wreck. One symptom of such bouts which stands out in my mind is a tendency toward phonetic spelling, spelling a word as I would speak it during an IM conversation, then having to back up and change it after having realised what I had just typed.

One of the primary reasons for these bouts in my opinion is sleeping problems, I've never had a great sleeping rhythm and when I sleep better it does tend to somewhat allieviate it.

Although I feel for the most part I am ontop of this problem with a very disciplined sleeping schedule, the introduction it provided me to nootropics is something I have followed since. I have bought some centrophenoxine and some piracetam from QHI in the hope that it can improve my academic performance, however a few main problems linger, perhaps problems the other readers here (who evidently are intelligent people) have experienced similar anxieties before. Any help would be appreciated.

1) Possibility of these pills upsetting some kind of balance and diminising my natural ability, even a complete lack of gains is tolerable, but regression scares the hell out of me.

2) Feeling like I need them, is it likely I could end up losing confidence in my ability to perform without nootropic assistance?

Sorry for the long post, but I didn't want to be haphazard about this.

Many Thanks

Centurion

[kenj]

Yes your 2 points are very intelligible and valid, I had similar doubts. Relying on pills to get your socks on in the morning would be a scary thought.
The more you read up on nootropics and their effects the more you will understand that this is a very safe and wise decision you'll make, ignorance here enables anxiety to kick in. Also you can choose (for some reason) to stop nootropics without going dumb or blind. The effects on your perception are gradual.
Still you will have to MAKE the decision, your considerations alone will not do it...

I find 5-HTP with cofactors producing serotonin is very effective in calming an anxious mind and securing a restful sleep.

EDIT Jun 15 2006: As I'm reading up on the connection between using drugs in general and aggravating various disorders in the body (particularly IBS) and stressing the nervous system I cannot support the use of nootropics/smart drugs.

Edited by kenj, 15 June 2006 - 02:59 PM.

[kerastasey]

could someone clear this up for me:
I thought taking 5-HTP with even the amount of B6 (?) resulted in conversion to Seratonin in the liver (outside the brain) which can be bad.
And that the only safe way to increase Seratonin effectively directly is to take tryptophan?

[kenj]

I thought taking 5-HTP with even the amount of B6 (?) resulted in conversion to Seratonin in the liver (outside the brain) which can be bad.

No, B6 is used for conversion to serotonin, just do a little research on how important this vitamin is, - and even when supplementing with extra B vitamins I believe the liver will not have enough enzyme activity to really make it a problem. The experiments mentioned in J. Souths article have shown subjects being fed excessive B6 would raise serotonin levels significantly, - which would prove impossible had the B6 converted the 5-HTP to serotonin prematurely outside the brain.

And that the only safe way to increase Seratonin effectively directly is to take tryptophan?

There seem to be some questions regarding the credibility/safety of 5-HTP...
5-HTP is far superior to L-Tryptophan in raising serotonin levels, it's is a step closer to serotonin than L-Tryptophan is, and that should explain it.
A much higher percentage of a given dose of 5-HTP is delivered to the bloodstream for easy access to the brain compared to a dose of L-Tryptophan. 1

Tryptophan may increase kynurenine levels when the enzyme tryptophan oxygenase acts on the tryptophan molecule (also depending on stress levels in the body) and thus less tryptophan may be available for 5-HTP->serotonin production, - 5-HTP is not used to make proteins in the body, tryptophan is, so it just makes the perfect (?) supplement for safely and effectively increasing serotonin levels. It even has antioxidant/melatonin/dopamine/norepinephrine activities, so there is not need for me to supplement with melatonin when using 5-HTP.

BTW, 5-HTP does not cooperate very well with SSRIs (as they will inhibit reabsorption of serotonin and flood the synapses with excessive serotonin) but 5-HTP is more effective than them, comes with no or few side-effects (nausea) while antidepressants burdens you with all kinds of adverse effects: much higher probability of nausea, headaches, insomnia, anxiety, diarrhea and, most strikingly, degrading your sexual life (which really may affect other key neurotransmitters and increase prolactin and decrease oxytocin).

I would also question supplementing with higher doses of 5-HTP if you take drugs that interfere with the bodys natural regulatory pathways for the metabolism and degradation of serotonin and the natural feedback loop in the body.
Actually this is my main concern: When you take in the raw materials in the form of supplements for synthesis of the neurotransmitters while taking drugs that inhibit/interfere with some of the bodys natural processes. You should carefully monitor the result; it may become a crazy factory.

1. I. E. Magnussen and F. Nielsen-Kudsk, "Bioavailability and related pharmacokinetics in man of orally administered L-5-hydroxytryptophan in a steady state," Acta Pharmacologica et toxicologica 46 (1980); I Magnussen et al., "Plasma accumulation and metabolism of orally administered singledose L-5-hydroxytryptophan in man," Acta Pharmacologica et toxicologica 49 (1981); R. Brown, "Tryptophan metabolism in humans," in O. Hayaishi, Y. Ishimura and R. Kido, eds., Biochemical and Medical aspects of Tryptophan Metabolism (Amsterdam: Elsevier/North Holland Press, 1980).

[opales]

5-HTP is more effective than them, comes with no or few side-effects

I should point out that the evidence for above statements is weak or non-existent. Especially the statement regarding effectiveness, aside from complete lack of scientific evidence for that, most anecdotal stories I've come by report that 5htp is much weaker than ssris. The fewer side-effects is possible, however, it is likely to be caused by lesser effectiveness or more likely, by the fact the studies on SSRIs are much, MUCH more numerous and better in quality (and extensiveness) so side-effects are more likely to be discovered.

[kenj]

I should point out that the evidence for above statements is weak or non-existent.

There may not be many studies on 5-HTP but they do show great results and while SSRIs also "work" it just makes more sense to me to supplement with a natural substance when available.
The double-blind swiss study from 1991 compared 5-HTP to fluvoxamine: While both groups responded positively in the treatment of depression the response in the 5-HTP group was actually faster, greater and they noted fewer/less severe side-effects. 1)

Also, 5-HTP can work "miracles"; patients that didn't respond to antidepressant therapy/electroconvulsive therapy (therapy-resistant depressed patients), many showed excellent improvement (recovery) when given 5-HTP. 2)

1). W. Pöldinger, B. Calanchini, W. Schwartz, " A functional-dimensional approach to depression: Serotonin deficiency as a target syndrome in a comparison of 5-HTP and fluvoxamine," Psychopathology 24 (1991).

2). J. J. van Hiele, "L-5-hydroxytryptophan in depression: The first substitution therapy in psychiatry?" Neuropsychobiology 6 (1980).

[kerastasey]

Well, I probably didn't write it very well, but I was questioning the content of this writing: http://yarchive.net/med/5-htp.html about possible problems with taking 5-HTP with B6.