91 replies to this topic

[nameless]

The concentrated products also have an advantage in the fact you simply take less of the oil in general.

Ex. Four 300mg capsules vs two 600mg capsules.

Thinking about it, wouldn't oxidation be less if people consumed concentrated oil vs non-concentrates? The EPA/DHA would be the same, but simply consuming 4 grams vs 2 grams of fats should matter.

Oxidation numbers may be better in high concentrates too, at least based on the IFOS numbers, which I guess is due to processing used.

As for fishy studies, they usually list their source, if you find the entire study. Abstracts sometimes don't list that. I believe EPAX was used in the rTG vs EE bioavailability study, for instance (if I remember right). Lovaza is used in a lot of studies too.

Edited by nameless, 06 December 2011 - 06:07 PM.

[Hebbeh]

http://suppversity.b...d-fish-oil.html

Very interesting study and worth while read on oxidized or rancid fish oil...study doesn't turn out as expected...

[Matt79]

http://suppversity.b...d-fish-oil.html

Very interesting study and worth while read on oxidized or rancid fish oil...study doesn't turn out as expected...

So if I'm reading that correct it's saying that consuming high quantities of fishoil is unlikely to cause oxidation. That seems to be in contradiction with the consensus view around here?

[Hebbeh]

http://suppversity.b...d-fish-oil.html

Very interesting study and worth while read on oxidized or rancid fish oil...study doesn't turn out as expected...

So if I'm reading that correct it's saying that consuming high quantities of fishoil is unlikely to cause oxidation. That seems to be in contradiction with the consensus view around here?

That would be correct. And not only that, but consuming highly rancid fish oil works just as good as fresh fish oil. The oxidation issue was always pure speculation...and as usual...human biology is much more complex...and the reason the human race has persisted....

[John2009]

I still want my fish oil as fresh as possible regardless of what any study says. The fish oil craze started with observations on Eskimo diets, and they eat their fish as fresh as possible. However, I suspect they also eat other things that may provide benefit, and probably exercise more on average since they go out and catch their food.

I wonder how geographic location (altitude) and oxygen density affects oxidation within the body, from a practical standpoint. Cold air is more dense, and one would think this would produce more oxidation within the body and/or generate more free radicals. However, when you go up in altitude, the air gets thinner. Basically, it would seem the more actual oxygen you have in the air, the more oxidation you are going to have within your body in response to any pro-oxidant. On top of that, if you are exercising in an oxygen rich environment, that would seem to make matters worse. I'm not sure if the differences from one geographic location to another are significant on average, and I tend to doubt anyone has ever looked into it, but perhaps someone has. In general, would people who live in cold environments have more oxidation than people in warm environments ?

[Hebbeh]

I still want my fish oil as fresh as possible regardless of what any study says. The fish oil craze started with observations on Eskimo diets, and they eat their fish as fresh as possible. However, I suspect they also eat other things that may provide benefit, and probably exercise more on average since they go out and catch their food.

I wonder how geographic location (altitude) and oxygen density affects oxidation within the body, from a practical standpoint. Cold air is more dense, and one would think this would produce more oxidation within the body and/or generate more free radicals. However, when you go up in altitude, the air gets thinner. Basically, it would seem the more actual oxygen you have in the air, the more oxidation you are going to have within your body in response to any pro-oxidant. On top of that, if you are exercising in an oxygen rich environment, that would seem to make matters worse. I'm not sure if the differences from one geographic location to another are significant on average, and I tend to doubt anyone has ever looked into it, but perhaps someone has. In general, would people who live in cold environments have more oxidation than people in warm environments ?

Although it is common sense to prefer fresh food vs rancid food...the study demonstrates that rancid has no adverse effects. And I believe you are way over analyzing (with more speculation)...but truth of the matter is human biology is way smarter than that...your body tightly regulates all these processes within the normal confines of existence.

edit...and the point is that the study demonstrated that HIGHLY oxidized fish oil worked just as well as fresh fish oil...and numerous other studies over the years has shown that oxidation in fish oil supplements isn't an issue and dosen't exist anyway as they always test fine....but many seem to have ocd worries about the POTENTIAL of rancid fish oil and this study should put those needless fears to rest so we can move on and worry about more important issues

Edited by Hebbeh, 10 December 2011 - 08:34 PM.

[John2009]

I was not trying to analyze the study or speculate by posing the question about oxygen, I was just posing the question as food for thought. Since oxygen is the most important component of oxidation, it would seem that these studies should try to control for oxygen, but do they ? I'm not just talking about fish oil related studies buy any study related to oxidation within the body.

I have been taking 4800 Mg of fish oil for a long time and I do this simply because the body of evidence seems to suggest that fish oil is good for us and I like how it makes me feel mentally.

I almost consider fish oil to be more like food than a supplement, and I mainly prefer fish oil to eating fish because of it's purity and it's cost effective.

I'm glad to hear about this study, but it's the body of evidence that counts. The problem is, with all the information available today, it's hard to read through everything and make a really meaningful decision. Not to mention that many studies are flawed or bias. I try to look into things as best I can and as best as time will allow, but I also am forced to go with my gut a little and go with what just seems to work for me.

It could even be that a little pro-oxidant activity from fish oil is a good thing since it might up-regulate our body's own endogenous anti-oxidant production to produce a net benefit.

Are there any more studies like this one that show fish oil does not generate free radicals within the body ? I would be interested to see a list of all studies like this. I had thought some studies show anti-oxidant activity from fish oil and some show pro-oxidant activity. The in-vivo studies are the only ones that really count. Also, the study under discussion was very short and it's the long term results that count. We still need to find out what those are with respect to the oxidation issue.

Edited by John2009, 10 December 2011 - 09:16 PM.

[Hebbeh]

The free radical theory of aging has been thoroughly debunked anyway. Free radicals in general are nothing to fear. Antioxidants are a misnomer and health benefits ascribed to "antioxidants" are not due to any "antioxidant" activity but due to other biological mechanisms. The term "antioxidant" should be banned as it's misleading at best. Here's a good source of current info and a good read...and many thanks to Vince and Victor:

http://www.anti-agin...upplementation/

Edited by Hebbeh, 10 December 2011 - 09:41 PM.

[pycnogenol]

There are so many theories. Can't keep up with all of them.

Article: How Effective Are Aging Theories?

http://www.life-enha...ate.asp?id=2379

Edited by pycnogenol, 10 December 2011 - 11:37 PM.

[Hebbeh]

There are so many theories. Can't keep up with all of them.

Article: How Effective Are Aging Theories?

http://www.life-enha...ate.asp?id=2379

This would appear not to be a scientific article of any kind but simply an infomercial geared to promote supplements on a web site that sells supplements....and as such....would certainly appear biased and without substance. And you learned what from this?

[pycnogenol]

This would appear not to be a scientific article of any kind but simply an infomercial geared to promote supplements on a web site that sells supplements....and as such....would certainly appear biased and without substance. And you learned what from this?

It would appear that you really need to lighten up. That site sells supplements? Really? I will alert the media.

Edited by pycnogenol, 11 December 2011 - 03:26 PM.

[Hebbeh]

This would appear not to be a scientific article of any kind but simply an infomercial geared to promote supplements on a web site that sells supplements....and as such....would certainly appear biased and without substance. And you learned what from this?

It would appear that you really need to lighten up. That site sells supplements? Really? I will alert the media.

Again, what is your point? Do you have anything constructive to add? (besides linking to a supplement retailer)

Edited by Hebbeh, 11 December 2011 - 03:37 PM.

[pycnogenol]

Again, what is your point? Do you have anything constructive to add? (besides linking to a supplement retailer)

Again, if you don't like the link provided then don't click and read it. It really is that easy. Getting your little undies in a bunch
because you don't like articles that also sell supplements and being all whiney about it is rather funny. Perhaps you can do this...

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Edited by pycnogenol, 11 December 2011 - 03:50 PM.

[Hebbeh]

Again, what is your point? Do you have anything constructive to add? (besides linking to a supplement retailer)

Again, if you don't like the link provided then don't click and read it. It really is that easy. Getting your little undies in a bunch
because you don't like articles that also sell supplements and being all whiney about it is rather funny. Perhaps you can do this...

Classy. I'm sure you've impressed everyone.

[pycnogenol]

Classy. I'm sure you've impressed everyone.

When it comes to impressing people, you're the reigning chimp! Congrats! Job well done!

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[Hebbeh]

Classy. I'm sure you've impressed everyone.

When it comes to impressing people, you're the reigning chimp! Congrats! Job well done!

And everybody wonders why a lot of the knowledgeable old time posters don't post anymore...well now we know...they can't complete with your knowledge....and certainly not your research..

[pycnogenol]

And everybody wonders why a lot of the knowledgeable old time posters don't post anymore...well now we know...they can't complete with your knowledge....and certainly not your research..

I'm so very relieved that my extensive research knowledge has helped you in so many ways! Now don't forget to bone up on the final exam!
Mister Hand is waiting for you in room 210!

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Edited by pycnogenol, 11 December 2011 - 04:41 PM.

[Hebbeh]

And everybody wonders why a lot of the knowledgeable old time posters don't post anymore...well now we know...they can't complete with your knowledge....and certainly not your research..

I'm so very relieved that my extensive research knowledge has helped you in so many ways! Now don't forget to bone up on the final exam!
Mister Hand is waiting for you in room 210!

Is your tantrum over now so we can move on to more serious discussions?

[pycnogenol]

Is your tantrum over now so we can move on to more serious discussions?

Would you like some cheese to go with your smug, incessant whining?

I'm very impressed that you're able to sit on the throne, read your beloved banana newspaper and reply to this thread all at the same time!

Simply amazing!

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Edited by pycnogenol, 11 December 2011 - 05:33 PM.

[Hebbeh]

Is your tantrum over now so we can move on to more serious discussions?

Would you like some cheese to go with your smug, incessant whining?

I'm very impressed that you're able to sit on the throne, read your beloved banana newspaper and reply to this thread all at the same time!

Simply amazing!

I will give you credit....I've never seen anyone so thoroughly kill a productive worthwhile thread like you have.

That is what is simply amazing!

Might as well burn all the books while you're at it too!

[pycnogenol]

Might as well burn all the books while you're at it too!

I'll start with all the books you've authored. Wait, you have no books under your name! Simply amazing!

Write a book so I can have the pure pleasure of burning it!

Edited by pycnogenol, 11 December 2011 - 05:45 PM.

[ta5]

[...]
Then a Canadian company came up with a very successful marketing campaign where they promoted ethyl ester fish oil at the 18%/12% as being "Moleculary distilled" to purify the oil. It was basically slick marketing making people suspicious of impurities for any fish oil that wasn't molecularly distilled. Soon afterwards the ethyl ester fish oils took over the market. The previous leader in the market tried to fight back by showing that the old 18/12 triglyceride fish oil had better bioavailability in the body but they weren't successful in stopping the rise in popularity of the Molecilarly distilled ethyl ester type. After that came the higher potency ethyl esters with the EPA and DHA amounts specified and then the low cost 30% Omega 3 ethyl esters (with variable amounts of the different Omega 3's that totaled 30% but could be in a different ratio each time).
[...]

These say they are "Molecularly distilled" and yet they are the triglyceride form. I guess either form can be "Molecularly distilled".
http://www.iherb.com...-Softgels/38855
http://www.iherb.com...-Softgels/10800

The Costco Kirkland brand is also the triglyceride form and molecularly distilled. The footnote for "Total Omega-3 Fatty Acids" says: "As Natural Triglycerides".

[MrSpud]

Some of them are now re-esterifying them back into triglycerides after they are finished distilling them as ethyl esters. Here's an article that talks about them http://www.naturalpr...e-omega-3s.aspx

[ta5]

Interesting. I hope they can't call re-esterfied fish oil "natural triglycerides".

[Sergiu Ghita]

Hello. I hope i'm not going offtopic, but i don't want to bother anyone with another topic on omega 3.

I've lost the energy to futher chase the best money+value omega 3 product on the market available now. After reading about the re-esterifi-"cation?" of the oil I can say that all hope is lost. I'm dizzy from all the marketing terms used to describe products and from the abundant range of fishy oils out there.

Could anyone please state out 1, 2 or even 3 specific products that have the following:
1. High amounts of DHA (i'm in need of 1.5 grams DHA daily)
2. Are in triglycerine form so I won't have to worry that i will absorb less or that ethylic form will attack any of my organs (read somewhere that it can attack the liver cells)
3. Are not containing any harmful toxins like mercury and the like.

At this very moment I have two products from Nordic Naturals that seem to stand out, but they are very pricey for my budget - Seems i could eat 100grams of smoked salmon file every day at the same price.

The first product is not in stock at iherb.com

Nordic Naturals, Ultimate Omega Xtra, Lemon Flavored, 8 fl oz (237 ml) - Cost: 68$
93+% True Triglycerides
Molecularly Distilled
5ml serving per day => 1g DHA, 2g EPA
Cost per month: ~45 $ without transporation from US to eastern Europe.

Second product, which i'm considering buying
Nordic Naturals, Ultimate Omega Liquid, Lemon Flavor, 8 fl oz (237 ml) - Cost: 61.16$
Molecularly Distilled
Natural Triglyceride Form
5ml serving per day => 1.126 DHA, 1.626 EPA
Cost per month: ~40 $ without transporation from US to eastern Europe.

The prices for these two are spicey, as I've said i can eat smoked salmon 100 grams for that money.(2.35grams omega 3; 17.1grams total amount of lipids - as described on the back of the wrapping)
Looking at the following link it seems I could hit my minimum daily intake goal: http://www.ars.usda....EB07_Salmon.pdf

Taking a few jelly fishy things or a spoon of oil seems easier than eating 100 grams of salmon a day, but hey, while others brag about their cars, i could brag about my expensive salmon sandwich daily breakfast costing me 76$ per month.

Mind you if you are living in a more evolved economical country, 100$ for me is equivalent to 300-400$ for you.

Thank you

[nupi]

I know its currently out of stock but http://www.iherb.com...gels/10713?at=0 seems like a decent deal - 3 pills a day would amount to a 15USD cost per month

[nupi]

I know its currently out of stock but http://www.iherb.com...gels/10713?at=0 seems like a decent deal - 3 pills a day would amount to a 15USD cost per month

[Sergiu Ghita]

But is it in triglycerine form or ethylic?

"Molecularly Distilled - Enteric Coated" makes me think it is ethylic thus not passing ...feature nr. 2 stated above.

[Matt79]

Sergiu an alternative to Nordic Naturals is Blue Bonnet which uses the Epax 6000 TG (triglyceride form).

[nickdino]

cod liver oil vs the other omega3's ee/tg, whats better?