81 replies to this topic

[shadowhawk]

With incomplete knowledge nothing is 100%  You can make up almost everything if no evidence of some kind  is required.  Some of science fiction is fiction.

[platypus]

 

Alright. And who tells you, that it is impossible? Any law of physics? Any law of other sciences? Which one?

You can't be sure it will be made, but you can't be sure it is impossible.

For example building a perpetummobile is impossible, because it violates the law of energy preservation (energy is not being created ot lost, but transforms from one type to another).

Which law you violate when capturing information about atoms?

 

I believe that his point is that the question is purely academic. While detectors could in theory be built, the magnitude of a project like that makes it very unlikely. Not impossible, just unlikely. 

 

"Impossible without magic" = impossible. This is the realist perspective. 

 

edit: I'm assuming that sending detector-systems backwards in time requires magic. 

Edited by platypus, 11 January 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

People, how many times you want me to give you the airplane example. You don't know how this will happen, and you can't know. On the very same way the people from 2000 years ago didn't know how to build an airplane. Yet, airplane is possible. 

[shadowhawk]

People, how many times you want me to give you the airplane example. You don't know how this will happen, and you can't know. On the very same way the people from 2000 years ago didn't know how to build an airplane. Yet, airplane is possible. 

You are basing your claims on lala.  You don't have a clue either except we do have the past and some knowledge of the way things behave.  The unknown does not justify any belief.  There needs to be some kind of evidence.

[Danail Bulgaria]

No. 

 

That belief is on facts and represents a possible future scenario. 

 

Everything is based on scientific laws. 

For everything there is a formula comming out of these laws. 

Everything can be calculated backwards. 

No law in any science bans calculations and taking presumptions during calculating. 

 

How exactly is for the future. One possible future scenario for the very distant future. 

[shadowhawk]

Either has some evidence or is lala.  Show some evidence time goes backwards.  Where are all the future people who came back? 

[Danail Bulgaria]

What the time goes backwards has to do with the fact, that everything goes by laws? 

[shadowhawk]

Nothing because time does not go backwards do you think.  We see nothing from the future in our present.  Being able to count backwards still takes place in a forward going time.  No law changes that.

Edited by shadowhawk, 12 January 2017 - 12:39 AM.

[N.T.M.]

 

 

Alright. And who tells you, that it is impossible? Any law of physics? Any law of other sciences? Which one?

You can't be sure it will be made, but you can't be sure it is impossible.

For example building a perpetummobile is impossible, because it violates the law of energy preservation (energy is not being created ot lost, but transforms from one type to another).

Which law you violate when capturing information about atoms?

 

I believe that his point is that the question is purely academic. While detectors could in theory be built, the magnitude of a project like that makes it very unlikely. Not impossible, just unlikely. 

 

"Impossible without magic" = impossible. This is the realist perspective. 

 

edit: I'm assuming that sending detector-systems backwards in time requires magic. 

 

 

But they wouldn't have to be sent backwards in time. That was the purpose of this thread: to see if information is lost. If it isn't, you could extrapolate backwards from information collected in the present.

[shadowhawk]

 

 

 

Alright. And who tells you, that it is impossible? Any law of physics? Any law of other sciences? Which one?

You can't be sure it will be made, but you can't be sure it is impossible.

For example building a perpetummobile is impossible, because it violates the law of energy preservation (energy is not being created ot lost, but transforms from one type to another).

Which law you violate when capturing information about atoms?

 

I believe that his point is that the question is purely academic. While detectors could in theory be built, the magnitude of a project like that makes it very unlikely. Not impossible, just unlikely. 

 

"Impossible without magic" = impossible. This is the realist perspective. 

 

edit: I'm assuming that sending detector-systems backwards in time requires magic. 

 

 

But they wouldn't have to be sent backwards in time. That was the purpose of this thread: to see if information is lost. If it isn't, you could extrapolate backwards from information collected in the present.

 

 

To your excellent point how are you going to collect it?  We can't do it now, when?  While it isn't being lost it becomes unusable at the speed of time. 
 

[N.T.M.]

 

To your excellent point how are you going to collect it?  We can't do it now, when?  While it isn't being lost it becomes unusable at the speed of time. 
 

 

 

No idea. That's why the question is academic. Although in principle it would work, there's absolutely no way to collect the information. And even if we could collect the information, the second, and possibly more significant, hurdle would be obtaining the computing power required to use it.

[shadowhawk]

To put it back together and not slip farther in time.  It takes time to do that.

 

[platypus]

 

"Impossible without magic" = impossible. This is the realist perspective. 

 

 

 

edit: I'm assuming that sending detector-systems backwards in time requires magic. 

 

 

But they wouldn't have to be sent backwards in time. That was the purpose of this thread: to see if information is lost. If it isn't, you could extrapolate backwards from information collected in the present.

 

What kind of information would you collect and where? It seems to me that the aim needs to be to retrieve the paths/histories of all particles that had something to do with Planet Earth during the evolution of life, for example. 

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

... the aim needs to be to retrieve the paths/histories of all particles that had something to do with Planet Earth during the evolution of life, for example. 

 

 

Yes, all atoms to be more speciphic.

 

If we manage to reduce the calculation only to the Earth instead to the entire Universe, then it would be much easier.

 

Further reducing factor that I can think of, is to calculate all of the atoms of the crust only. We maybe won't need the magma and the core, at least not in atom by atom detail.

 

How about if people manage to calculate the fate of only the carbon atoms on the Earth? That would be enough to be regained a large part of the lost human body.

[platypus]

 

 

... the aim needs to be to retrieve the paths/histories of all particles that had something to do with Planet Earth during the evolution of life, for example. 

 

 

Yes, all atoms to be more speciphic.

 

If we manage to reduce the calculation only to the Earth instead to the entire Universe, then it would be much easier.

 

Further reducing factor that I can think of, is to calculate all of the atoms of the crust only. We maybe won't need the magma and the core, at least not in atom by atom detail.

 

How about if people manage to calculate the fate of only the carbon atoms on the Earth? That would be enough to be regained a large part of the lost human body.

 

So what do you think would need to measured in the present? Think about it. 

[Danail Bulgaria]

Hm... no idea.

 

I hope the people from the future would know.

[platypus]

So you are hoping for a magical solution. That is not science, but actually totally useless. One of the main points of figuring out physical laws is that they indicate what is possible in this universe, and equally what is *impossible*. If you are in a situation where you think "anything is possible", you haven't learned very much about how the universe works. As an experiment it would be useful for you to list things that you think are impossible according to the known laws of physics. 

[Danail Bulgaria]

Lets say that at the moment this is a science fiction, or as I wrote above, a possible future scenario. Or a possible future technology.

 

Each new thing starts like that - an idea, very often a dubious idea.

 

The bigger the idea the more dubious it looks.

 

The car has been a dubious idea, the airplane has been a dubious idea, the first man in the space has been a dubious idea, even the Tesla coil has been a dubious idea. Look arround you and make a list of what you see - a computer, a tv, your appartment lets say on the 10th floor, maybe printed books on the table, your coffee machine maybe. Everything that has been ideas just like that - a scince fiction, a possible future scenario, a possible future technology.

[N.T.M.]

 

 

... the aim needs to be to retrieve the paths/histories of all particles that had something to do with Planet Earth during the evolution of life, for example. 

 

 

Yes, all atoms to be more speciphic.

 

If we manage to reduce the calculation only to the Earth instead to the entire Universe, then it would be much easier.

 

Further reducing factor that I can think of, is to calculate all of the atoms of the crust only. We maybe won't need the magma and the core, at least not in atom by atom detail.

 

How about if people manage to calculate the fate of only the carbon atoms on the Earth? That would be enough to be regained a large part of the lost human body.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that limiting the scope to Earth wouldn't work, at least not well enough to produce the detail we talked about earlier (calculating a previous state with complete accuracy). It wouldn't work because Earth is an open system. You would be trying to perform calculations with incomplete information.

[shadowhawk]

Lets say that at the moment this is a science fiction, or as I wrote above, a possible future scenario. Or a possible future technology.

 

Each new thing starts like that - an idea, very often a dubious idea.

 

The bigger the idea the more dubious it looks.

 

The car has been a dubious idea, the airplane has been a dubious idea, the first man in the space has been a dubious idea, even the Tesla coil has been a dubious idea. Look arround you and make a list of what you see - a computer, a tv, your appartment lets say on the 10th floor, maybe printed books on the table, your coffee machine maybe. Everything that has been ideas just like that - a scince fiction, a possible future scenario, a possible future technology.

 

What physical laws were violated by any pf this?  We can learn new applications within limits.  This does not mean we can stop time.  Yes look around you, have we done anything that violates the basic laws of the real emergent world?
 

[Danail Bulgaria]

...

I'm pretty sure that limiting the scope to Earth wouldn't work, at least not well enough to produce the detail we talked about earlier (calculating a previous state with complete accuracy). It wouldn't work because Earth is an open system. You would be trying to perform calculations with incomplete information.

 

 

Well... sorry. Then the people from the very distant future will have to do alot of calculations.

 

The Earth is an open system, correct. But it receives and dismisses mainly energy. The atoms as general are staying here, on the Earth. But again new atoms come with meteorites.

 

Or they may find a way to do the correct math with incomplete information.

[Danail Bulgaria]

 

Lets say that at the moment this is a science fiction, or as I wrote above, a possible future scenario. Or a possible future technology.

 

Each new thing starts like that - an idea, very often a dubious idea.

 

The bigger the idea the more dubious it looks.

 

The car has been a dubious idea, the airplane has been a dubious idea, the first man in the space has been a dubious idea, even the Tesla coil has been a dubious idea. Look arround you and make a list of what you see - a computer, a tv, your appartment lets say on the 10th floor, maybe printed books on the table, your coffee machine maybe. Everything that has been ideas just like that - a scince fiction, a possible future scenario, a possible future technology.

 

What physical laws were violated by any pf this?  We can learn new applications within limits.  This does not mean we can stop time.  Yes look around you, have we done anything that violates the basic laws of the real emergent world?
 

 

 

I can't understand your time argument. How exactly it is connected with my arguments?

[shadowhawk]

Usable information is subject to time erosion.  While information is not being lost time is causing it to fall in disarray.  There is sooooo much of it. and it is beyond even our imagination.  To reconstruct even a second of it, much less thousands of years is mind boggling.     Your past is gone and you don't have the power to put it back together Humpdey.  By the way, as far as we know the cosmos is a closed system. 

[N.T.M.]

 

...

I'm pretty sure that limiting the scope to Earth wouldn't work, at least not well enough to produce the detail we talked about earlier (calculating a previous state with complete accuracy). It wouldn't work because Earth is an open system. You would be trying to perform calculations with incomplete information.

 

 

Well... sorry. Then the people from the very distant future will have to do alot of calculations.

 

The Earth is an open system, correct. But it receives and dismisses mainly energy. The atoms as general are staying here, on the Earth. But again new atoms come with meteorites.

 

Or they may find a way to do the correct math with incomplete information.

 

 

There's no doubt that relatively little transfer (mass or otherwise) is taking place. The problem of missing information is like the butterfly effect in reverse. A little gap in the information would make the whole thing impossible.

[Danail Bulgaria]

No. It only will make the calculation much much more. The missing information may be suggested. Each time you doubt for a missing information, you may calculate the both scenarios - if it was this and if it was that. Recalculate backwards the butterfly effect with allpossible scenarios and compare it with the present, until you reach the one,that represents the world now. Like in the minesweeper game, but with endless lifes. Step here. Boom! Alright then step on the right. Ahaaa...

[N.T.M.]

No. It only will make the calculation much much more. The missing information may be suggested. Each time you doubt for a missing information, you may calculate the both scenarios - if it was this and if it was that. Recalculate backwards the butterfly effect with allpossible scenarios and compare it with the present, until you reach the one,that represents the world now. Like in the minesweeper game, but with endless lifes. Step here. Boom! Alright then step on the right. Ahaaa...

 

I have to disagree. While you could consider different possibilities to account for missing information while going backwards in time, the number of different possibilities would be infinite, so the whole exercise becomes meaningless. What actually happened would be a subset of this infinity, but that's obviously not helpful.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Why do you think, that it will be infinite. For finite number of possibilities the calculations of the different states are finite.

 

On each new level backwards would be more, but still finite. Even if you reach the very beginning o life on the Earth, they still should be finite. Finite super large number of different states for calculating.

[N.T.M.]

On each new level backwards would be more, but still finite. 

 

This is incorrect if you isolate information to that provided only by Earth. In moving backwards in time (calculating previous states from presently available information), you have to consider all possible variations that might occur by something moving across the boundary of the system (Earth). The positions of particles, for example, that have left the atmosphere would not be available in the information provided by Earth, so in calculating a previous state, moving backwards in time you would have to consider all possible particles and their positions crossing the boundary into Earth. My point is that this number is infinite, not finite. 

[shadowhawk]

No one from any future is showing up.  Why???  Your science fiction predicts they should be all around us.

[Danail Bulgaria]

The positions of particles, for example, that have left the atmosphere is still finite. Even if you take all possible particles crossing the boundary into Earth they again are finite.

Everything that is finite in number and can make a finite effects while in contact with the system generates a finite number of possibilities.