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Resveratrol Revisted


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#61 nbourbaki

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 02:18 PM

Likewise, eating tomatoes is a poor way to get lycopene. Eating fish can be a dangerous way to get enough EPA/DHA.


Why? I always have a good tomatos in my diet and I thought I dont need extra lycopene. Maybe I have to change my mind. Whats bad in eating a good quantity of tomatoes?
About fish, depends on the source. If they are not full of mercury and other s*hit, its definitely a healthy food.


There are a number of healthy reasons to consume fresh tomatoes but as a source for Lycopene, it doesn't appear to be the best. When you cook tomatoes into sauce, it breaks down the cell walls and makes the Lycopene more bioavailable.

Lycopene Content of Tomato Products: Its Stability, Bioavailability and In Vivo Antioxidant Properties.

Agarwal A, Shen H, Agarwal S, Rao AV.

Department of Nutritional Sciences, Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto, Toronto, ON M5S 3E2, Canada.

Lycopene is a bioactive carotenoid present in many fruits and vegetables. Tomatoes constitute the major dietary source of lycopene. Recent evidence shows lycopene to be associated with several health benefits. However, very little information is available about the stability of lycopene and its bioavailability. Because tomatoes undergo extensive processing and storage before consumption, a study was conducted to evaluate the stability, isomeric form, bioavailability, and in vivo antioxidant properties of lycopene. Total lycopene and isomers were measured by spectrophotometry and high-performance liquid chromatography, respectively. Lycopene content of tomatoes remained unchanged during the multistep processing operations for the production of juice or paste and remained stable for up to 12 months of storage at ambient temperature. Moreover, subjecting tomato juice to cooking temperatures in the presence of corn oil resulted in the formation of the cis isomeric form, which was considered to be more bioavailable. Lycopene was absorbed readily from the dietary sources. Serum lipid and low-density lipoprotein oxidation were significantly reduced after the consumption of tomato products containing lycopene.

#62 DukeNukem

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 04:15 PM

There are a number of healthy reasons to consume fresh tomatoes but as a source for Lycopene, it doesn't appear to be the best. When you cook tomatoes into sauce, it breaks down the cell walls and makes the Lycopene more bioavailable.

This is the reason exactly. The best lycopene "pill" is a spoonful of spaghetti sauce (sugar free--not easy to find in normal grocery stores) each day, or tomato concentrate.

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#63 syr_

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 07:28 PM

This is the reason exactly.  The best lycopene "pill" is a spoonful of spaghetti sauce (sugar free--not easy to find in normal grocery stores) each day, or tomato concentrate.


Thanks. Its one of the good things available in stores here, 100% tomato sauce ;) I eat whole grains pasta with cooked tomato sauce almost every day, so I am covered on this like i thought :p There could be a little sugar for preservation but as few as 1g in 1liter doesnt really matter. I dont add extra sugar while making the sauce (like someone recommend) for obvious reasons.
One supplement less to take :)

#64 tedsez

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 09:57 PM

I have to say that while I find the production process behind Longevinex to be a good idea, I'm not sure I'm comfortable buying from this company.

The question I have is whether it's possible to obtain large amounts of resveratrol from food sources, thus negating the problem of degradation.

For instance:

Since Japanese knotweed contains large amounts of resveratrol, could you just buy the leaves and juice them, or buy roots and make tea? (Knotweed extract is often used in resveratrol supplements -- does anyone know if there are also unhealthful substances in this plant that would make it unwise to consume on its own?)

Could you drink large amounts of grape-juice products in which much of the sugar has been replaced by calorie-free sweeteners (for instance, the "light" version of cran-grape juice)? Does resveratrol survive whatever process those drinks go through?

Could you buy a pound of raw or roasted peanuts, remove the red skins, grind them and mix them in food? (I've heard that the skins -- which I assume are fat-free -- contain most of the peanut's resveratrol, but I don't know how much.)

One other question: If most commercial grape-skin extract capsules lose much of their resveratrol over time, how much is left? You can buy TruNature Grape Seed With Whole Grape Extract -- containing 100 mg. grape seed extract, 37.5 mg. grape skin extract, and 12.5 mg. whole grape extract -- for about $19 per 250 soft-gels at Costco. Meaning you could take 10 of these a day for less than the cost of one Longevinex. Would this be a mistake? How much resveratrol would you end up consuming?

#65 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 10:06 PM

You would have no idea how much resveratrol you're consuming, that's the problem.

The most cost effective alternative to Longevinex is NSI Resveratrol from vitacost:
NSI Resveratrol

NSI Resveratrol from vitacost = 281mg trans-resveratrol per $1 ($16 for 120 caps containing 37.5mg)
Longevinex from Purity Products = 40mg trans-resveratrol per $1 ($30 for 30 caps containing 40mg)

So Longevinex is 700% more expensive. Is it worth seven times the price? I'm not sure. Particularly after Sardi's vague response to my question of how much trans-resveratrol is in competing products. He admitted that other resveratrol products did contain trans-resveratrol, but not in a consistent quantity.

Given the price difference, and the fact that I'm on a budget, I may take the gamble and go with NSI. I could afford to take much, much more of that product and possibly (probably?) offset the reduced potency.

I recently noticed that Paul Wakfer (of morelife.org, longevity guru extraordinaire) doesn't even supplement resveratrol at all, except for what is in LEF's I3C product. This really piqued my curiosity, so I have a message pending to the morelife yahoo group asking for his position on resveratrol.

#66 nbourbaki

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 04:11 AM

I think you're going to find that Paul practices calorie restriction. Calorie restriction is the only proven way to extend maximum lifespan in mammals. Reseratrol is supposed to work by silencing some of the same genes that calorie restriction does. There was a study that showed that combining resveratrol and calorie restriction does not add additonal protection. So if you are already practicing calorie restriction, resveratrol adds little value. On the other hand, for those of us that do not practice calorie restriction, resveratrol offers some hope.

#67 syr_

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 01:21 PM

The NSI product is surely a good option if you want high doses of resveratrol. Keep in mind that it would be unpractical (and probably leading to effectiveness waste) to split the capsule to tale less then one a day.

Besides the fact that improting from the US is a pain in the ass for me, I still think that this
http://www.aoreurope...n.php?prodid=48
AOR product is a good deal (I take 2 a day).

#68 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 01:41 PM

It turns out Paul does consume 60mg of resveratrol daily through LEF products.

#69 rflalonde

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 11:36 PM

I have been reading the posts on resveratrol with great interest. Just today I received an order from Swanson Vitamins that included several bottles of "Super Potency Resveratrol," all from Polygonum cuspidatum root extract. So, is this stuff any good? Is is cis-resveratrol instead of trans-resveratrol?

#70 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 03:53 PM

If we had the answer to questions like that, this thread wouldn't be almost 5 pages long. :)

Personally I like seeing trans-resveratrol on the label as opposed to just resveratrol. That shows the manufacturer is at least smart enough to know the difference. You might use that as a guide when evaluating resveratrol supplements.

#71 biknut

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 03:31 AM

I've been wondering what all the fuss is about resveratrol. Antioxidant right. It's probably good for you but seems kind of weak. I've thought to myself Protandim's got to be a lot better, but apparently resveratrol is highly thought of. Maybe someone can explain to me why they think it's better.

I ran across this from a Bill Sardi webb sight.

Instead of attempting to prove the impossible, Harvard researcher David Sinclair is steering his resveratrol pill, labeled as an anti-aging molecule in 2003, toward approval as an anti-diabetic drug. Sirtris Pharmaceuticals is the developer. In March of 2005 philanthropist Paul F. Glenn announced he had committed $5 million for research on the biological mechanisms of aging. The money will establish the Paul F. Glenn Laboratories at Harvard. In the same month, Sirtris announced it had secured $27 million in new financing.

However, resveratrol pills appeared to have competition from Protandim, a pill heralded in June of 2005 as a booster of superoxide dismutase, an inborn antioxidant enzyme. Utilizing five botanical extracts, including milk thistle, turmeric and green tea, Protandim received considerable attention in the news media.

http://www.knowledge.....ti-Aging Pill

#72 Shepard

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 03:38 AM

You really don't miss a chance to pimp that shit, do you?

#73 biknut

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 04:13 AM

Just cause you don't know the answer you don't have to take it out on me shep.

#74 biknut

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 04:35 AM

This was on the same sight.

resveratrol was found to clean up beta amyloid plaque in the brain [Journal Biological Chemistry 280: 37377, 2005], inhibit the replication of the flu virus [Journal Infectious Diseases May 15, 2005],

Has anybody taking resveratrol caught the flu? Will it stop the bird flu?

#75 DukeNukem

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 04:52 AM

Since I've been basically megadosing on resveratrol (over 100 mg daily), I've not been sick. Actually, I've not been sick in three years, a little before I started tacking resveratrol period, which was about 2.5 years ago (but back then i was still taking a lot of supplements).

I rate resveratrol as a MUST-TAKE supplement. Anyone concerned with health and life extension is missing out big-time by not taking this gem. It simply has too many profoundly positive benefits.

As for Protandim, it's merely like a multi-vitamin, but instead it's a multi-herbal supplement, with very well selected herbs. I've been taken all of those exact herbs for years. This would be a convenient pill for people who want to limit there supplement intake, but I take much higher doses of turmeric and green tea, for example.

#76 biknut

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 05:06 AM

Thanks Duke, I know you're a big proponent of resveratrol. I think I may add it to my stack. I've been reading more about it.

Just out of curiosity, have you been around very many people that had colds of flu in the last 3 years?

#77 Shepard

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 05:23 AM

Just cause you don't know the answer you don't have to take it out on me shep.


Uh, what?

Dude, you talk about Protandim in like 50% of your posts. If you remember, I was one of the ones that defended certain aspects of that supplement. But come on, it gets a litte tired.

#78 biknut

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 05:38 AM

I must be making some progress, you're talking about it now.

I am expanding my horizon though. I am talking about resveratrol, and did you see my post about GH3. I'm really liking GH3. I'm going to start boring you about that soon.

#79 Matt

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 06:28 AM

Does anyone think it's worth taking resveratrol while I am doing Calorie Restriction ?

#80 hallucinogen

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 08:01 AM

Has anyone heard about WINE IMPURITIES/Preservatives ?:) That drinking wine could be a double-edged sword?

#81 syr_

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 12:30 PM

Has anybody taking resveratrol caught the flu? Will it stop the bird flu?


I caught just a small throat cold, which went away in 2 days (shorter than usual for me), but I also raised my intake of vitamin C. I think I can say that resveratrol does not help against the common cold. About the flu, I dont want to ever catch it like last year -my antiviral and immune protocol is much better this year.
I'm not taking Echinacea yet, i'm not completely sure of preventive effectiveness.

#82 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 04:52 PM

To give a counter-point to the gung ho pro resveratrol theme of this thread, here are some sobering words from MR [edited at his request]. These are notes taken from his speech at the 2004 Calorie Restriction Society Conference:

Resveratrol:

    * Looks promising
    * Trans-isomer is important - if it is going to work. Most supps in wrong form
    * No mammalian LS data - even for Sirtuin activation, say nothing of resveratrol
    * Fly study may only be curve squaring
    * Resveratrol Pharmacokinetics - some question of whether resveratrol activates
    * SIRT1 in vivo - resveratrol is heavily metabolized, rapidly cleared. May do the reverse of what we want in higher dosage. Wide variety of levels in organs. May retard aging in one organ and accelerate it in another. We don't know...
    * Questionable bioavailability.
    * Fly data exaggerated. About 1/2 the lifespan effect of CR in flies. Control flies in resveratrol studies seem unusually short lived - only corrective affect?

Michael says - Right now you're taking a risk if you take resveratrol supplements. Not justified.


The whole thing is definitely worth reading. Its too bad you have to be a member of the society and fly out to arizona to get advice like this.

http://calorierestri...07-summary.html

Edited by funkodyssey, 27 February 2006 - 02:48 PM.


#83 opales

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 05:36 PM

Indeed the whole thing is worth reading (actually I have posted it at Imminst once if not many times because that very reason), and not in particular because of the resveratrol or any other individual supplement but because it serves as excellent general approach towards supplementation, and maybe even towards life extension in general. For me it was one of the eye openers (in addition to some other reads, in particular the ones by Aubrey himself), in regards that if we really want to live for a lllooonnggg time, popping those pills just ain't gonna cut it. We need the biotech to save our asses. I warmly recommend everyone to read it, absorb it and maybe after that head to the the sens site (www.sens.org) and read some of Aubrey's publications (I personally ploughed through all, even the technical ones, which I consider a somewhat of a feat for a researcher in a completely unrelated field. And I mean that really fought to understand the stuff I read, needless to say google and wikipedia were invaluable assets.)

Note that the actual Power Point slides of Michael's presentation contain some information lacking in the summary (on the other hand, the summary contains some info lacking in the Power Point)

http://calorierestri.../cr3-07-Rae.ppt

Edited by opales, 26 February 2006 - 05:34 PM.


#84 opales

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 05:40 PM

And while I'm at it, the CR society archives contain some real gems too (pertaining to supplements, diet and their relationship and individual weights).

Hell, I'll use this opportunity to readvertize the Position Statement on Human Aging in Scientific American signed by 51 ACTUAL biogerontologist, It is a MUST read for every immortalist

http://www.sciam.com...4A8809EC588EEDF

Even Aubrey signed it, despite his obvious disagreement with the following passage

The prospect of humans living forever is as unlikely today as it has always been, and discussions of such an impossible scenario have no place in a scientific discourse.


Aubrey still agreed with "general message" so much that he was willing to sign the statement despite the above (which we all agree that just simply is not true).

Edited by opales, 24 February 2006 - 09:15 PM.


#85 biknut

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 09:08 PM

funkodyssey, I like your honesty in showing a little of the opposing view to resveratrol so people like me, that don't know a lot about it can make a more informed opinion. Especially since you started the topic and are probably pro on the subject.

#86 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 09:20 PM

Thanks for noticing. :) I think when it comes to health and supplements, you have to be willing to consider all points of view with an open mind, and not grow overly attached to any one opinion or position, because new research could come out tomorrow that completely contradicts whatever you thought you knew. When health is at stake there is no room for ego or pride.

#87 tedsez

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 12:50 AM

I still want to know what else is in Japanese knotweed, since all the resveratrol supplements seem to be based on extracts of it.

(For instance, NSI's product lists "Japanese Knotweed Extract (Polygonum cuspidatum)(root)(providing 37.5 mg [50%] Trans-resveratrol)" -- which, come to think of it, seems awfully high, since other products containing knotweed extract say that it contains about 20-30 percent resveratrol.)

Have long-term health studies on Japanese knotweed ever been done? Does it contain other substances that could have either negative or positive effects over time?

#88 kevink

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 12:14 PM

I think when it comes to health and supplements, you have to be willing to consider all points of view with an open mind, and not grow overly attached to any one opinion or position, because new research could come out tomorrow that completely contradicts whatever you thought you knew.  When health is at stake there is no room for ego or pride.


I couldn't agree more. Well said. [thumb]

#89 trh001

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 08:03 PM

I think when it comes to health and supplements, you have to be willing to consider all points of view with an open mind, and not grow overly attached to any one opinion or position, because new research could come out tomorrow that completely contradicts whatever you thought you knew.  When health is at stake there is no room for ego or pride.


Funkodyssey,

This is especially effective if one reads and attempts to make decisions based upon one's own interpretation of the primary literature in conjunction with some background in biochemistry (attainable fairly easily for motivated folks with no prior exposure -- a few semesters at community college and a willingness to dig into Stryer, say. I've seen it done.)

What's bothersome for me are articles like the Scientific American (SA) one noted above. Unfortunately, SA is for-profit, unlike peer reviewed journals, and, even ore significant, they need to couch their offerings to have the highest probability of doing the greatest good for the largest segment of the public. This leads to the same sorts of conclusions we've seen year after year from SA wrt to intervention in the aging process or, if you prefer, "alterations in structure and function at the cellular-, tissue-, organ- and organ system-level over time." They consistently filter, set up paper tigers they can easily defeat (such as secondary pop literature on 'anti-aging'), and quote selectively from 'experts' who, since they are speaking to a very wide audience via SA, will naturally want to craft their response to 'first do no harm'. Their conclusions in primary publications, or in publications intended for consumption by other experts, may be quite different.

The primary literature, when peer reviewed and published in good journals (Korean Cloning scandal aside) is the only place the data can *speak for itself*. One need not even read the conclusions voiced by the authors. Unfortunately, most motivated individuals who achieve and understanding and willingness to read the primary literature will be limited to abstracts at www.pubmed.org. Access to the complete article via a university library is probably not feasible for most. This leads to difficulty in rationalizing apparently disparate conclusions, as the abstracts can often be pretty sparse on detail, or even misleading.

Fortunately, networks like *this* exist, where some folks who have access to primary electronic journals can attempt to support and clarify, making your position above, even stronger and more workable.

Again, unfortunately, most folks I know take their cue from newspapers, and other tertiary sources, and are hopelessly misled and suffer from a lag of years wrt their "data" sources, as "consensus" views wrt public good aren't very useful for fine tuning approaches to radical life extension.

So, more power to folks like us who attempt to stay on the edge, and not buy into a theme set forth by the pop anti-aging person of the day, or the pop molecule of the day, like Resveratrol. I'm still optimistic and not terribly concerned about low level consumption of Resveratrol, or, if I am, it's only to the extent that we take risk with any supplement (a la the Beta Carotene 'scandal') that hasn't seen decade long clinical trials. Yet we all know these studies won't happen for most of what we consume, as there's less and less funding for science in the public domain; most will be patentable molecules via for-profit pharma, which I'm for, but it only addresses the underlying causes of aging, so far, indirectly (metformin, say, and type-2 diabetes). There is also risk that increasing control over public domain molecules will be exerted, as seen, say, in the case submitted to FDA for pyridoxamine (pending). Years back, there was even talk of patenting Melatonin; a terrible precedent that fortunately failed. Still, we see that bills before congress to restrict access to hormones might prevent access to a wide array of molecular classes, including DHEA [Pardon the digression. ;) ]

So, supplementing has inherent risk, which as noted above, needs to be evaluated wrt potential reward as assessed by a review of the primary literature rather than interviews with experts, or secondary literature like SA.

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#90 Michael

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 02:39 PM

All:

To give a counter-point to the gung ho pro resveratrol theme of this thread, here are some sobering words from MR [edited at his request].  These are notes taken from his speech at the 2004 Calorie Restriction Society Conference ... The whole thing is definitely worth reading.  Its too bad you have to be a member of the society and fly out to arizona to get advice like this.

http://calorierestri...07-summary.html


You don't actually have to be a member -- but yes, you do have to go to the Conference to enjoy the benefits of the Conference presentatioins ;). The lineup of speakers at this year's Calorie Restriction Society conference is again quite exciting:

The fourth CR Society Conference will be held at The Hotel Arizona in Tucson, Arizona. The Conference will run from Thursday April 6 through Sunday April 9, 2006. There will be a welcoming reception/registration on Wednesday April 5. While the speaker schedule is still a work-in-progress, it looks like we will have a full schedule starting Thursday morning (April 6). Our hotel group rates will be honored three days prior and three days following contract dates of April 5-9.

So far, the following researchers have accepted our offer to participate in  the conference:

Brian M. Delaney
CR Society president and author of The Longevity Diet

John O. Holloszy, M.D.
http://tinyurl.com/3gr4t

Luigi Fontana, M.D.
http://tinyurl.com/7n5cf

[Fontana and Holloszy are the principal investigators on a small but quite remarkable study documenting the effects of human CR, including the findings that CR in humans dramatically improves all major cardiovascular disease risk factors and (even more impressively) that  calorie restriction in humans retards or even reverses age-related declines in diastolic function -- thought to be a marker of primary aging -Michael].

Steven Austad, Ph.D.
http://tinyurl.com/btd63

Caleb Finch, Ph.D.

Aubrey de Grey, Ph.D.
http://tinyurl.com/duex9

Michael Rose from UC Irvine (famous for breeding long-lived fruit flies [and author of The Long Tomorrow)

Stephen R. Spindler.
Dr. Stephen Spindler is the winner of the inaugural Methuselah Mouse  Rejuvenation Prize for his experimental demonstration of extended  lifespan with middle-aged laboratory animals.

Edward Masoro, former chairman of the Physiology Department at the Univ.  of  Texas, San Antonio and renowned CR researcher who participated in CR III.


That said: the full, referenced notes to my CR Society Conference presentation on supplements are now available online; the previously-cited notes were taken by a member of the audience, are very abbreviated, and contain a few mistakes and/or confusing statements (like the seemingly-contradictory statements about CoQ10).

On resveratrol: Christ, are people still taking this?? It has now been demonstrated that Resveratrol does not activate sirtuins -- the effect is a laboratory artifact resulting from the fact that the molecular "tag" ("Fluor de Lys") that Sinclair's group has been using to detect the activation (deacetylation) of various enzymatic targets by sirtuins actually decreases the binding affinity of sirtuins to their target protein.

Resveratrol makes it easier for sirtuins to overcome the resistance posed by the "tag"-bound protein. But take away the "tag," and there is no enhancement of the activity of the sirtuin (1). This has now been independently confirmed (2). Kaeberlein's group also documented that there is no life extension effect in normal, healthy yeast strains -- and as my notes indicate, the LS effect in flies and worms is very dubious.

To use an analogy: imagine if you bought a contaminated supply of gasoline, containing some evil chemical that gunks up your carburetor, making your car run inefficiently. Now imagine that someone, looking to design an efficiency-boosting fuel additive, just starts randomly throwing chemicals into your gas line to see what might work. S/he hits upon a substance that breaks down the noxious gak that's causing the problem in your carburetor, causing your car to run normally again.

This normalization is made to look as if it were an actual improvement in the normal functioning of your car, and is hailed as a boon to engine longevity.

But as soon as you revert to pure fuel, you find that the miracle additive is of no benefit, because the hindrance that it removed isn't there in the first place.

Bottom line: whatever the place of sirtuins in the CR effect in mammals (still an open question, tho' there remain promising hints), resveratrol is not a shortcut to their activation in real-world conditions. (This is not to say that I object to taking doses that actually replicate what one might get from a glass or two of high-resveratrol wine a day -- say, 1-2 mg of chirally-pure trans-resveratrol -- tho' even there, an actual glass or two of wine has much more actual scientific justification than a pill at this point, and is my practice within a CR diet).

-Michael

1. Kaeberlein M, McDonagh T, Heltweg B, Hixon J, Westman EA, Caldwell S, Napper A, Curtis R, Distefano PS, Fields S, Bedalov A, Kennedy BK. Substrate specific activation fo sirtuins by resveratrol. J Biol Chem. 2005 Jan 31; [Epub ahead of print] PMID: 15684413 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

2: Borra MT, Smith BC, Denu JM. Mechanism of human SIRT1 activation by resveratrol. J Biol Chem. 2005 Mar 4; [Epub ahead of print] PMID: 15749705 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]




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