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Star Trek was a stupid idea anyway


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#1 johnuk

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 06:48 PM


I love Trek.

But over the last year or so the entire idea, not just Trek it's self, has started to seem incorrect. That of humans and interstella travel onboard space ships.

Moving humans round takes a lot of effort. Human bodies need constant environmental control to keep them alive, food, water and so on. Then you need the craft it's self, some way of directing it, slowing it down, protecting it from radiation, protecting it from impact damage cause by atomically sized particles, negating friction (which goes with the last one)... In order to support all these requirements, you need mass. Lots of it.

And the number one problem when accelerating things to gigantic speeds... mass.

We've been through a stage of constant discoveries near and at the quantum level. Nuclear fission giving us electricity. Nuclear fusion will be along soon enough. And, more recently, we've had the possibility of antimatter power sources discussed.

Forgetting developments in energy densities of these sources, as these are merely ways of making the engine it's self more realistically sized, one thing still sticks out. The very quantities of energy required in the first place to move a human around at such speeds over these distances are hurrendous. Once you begin taking account of the requirements to keep a human body alive, and preferably happy, over these journeys, you're talking about quantities of energy that would be difficult for us to actually find anywhere on Earth once more than one or two people want to do more than just test the theory of the idea.

Science has provided a way of compressing the energy down into a smaller space. It hasn't really provided any such jumps in methods of extracting such quantities of energy from the universe to start with. Perhaps the last big step was fusion, with antimatter reactions placing the fundamental limit on the quantity of energy you can extract from a specific mass.

We don't have any antimatter lying around, so we need to make it. Making and storing it costs energy. I suppose that opens up the next big step in energy production to finding some means of mining, or harvesting, already present antimatter from a naturally occuring resource; saving energy by not having to generate it from normal matter. We then enter the domain of antimatter being thought of as a fossil fuel. I've left this idea open as possible, but as I understand it, antimatter doesn't like existing in our part of space anyway. It's this very fact that would make it useful, since we have so much none antimatter stuff spare to react with it. So the chances of finding a big seam of it through our part of space would appear to be low. I'm only leaving it open as it's the only major advance I can forsee in the availability of energy. And even then, it may prove to be a limited availability.

This makes me question the Trek idea. Indeed, the entire idea of humans travelling around the universe in ships. With new discussions of such dense energy sources, it's obviously an appealing idea. But you're still left with the problem, where do you get that energy from to begin with?

This is also forgotting the technical developments required to even build such a craft. Which I strongly suspect the supporters of vastly underestimate.

Looking at my own nervous system, it seems like an easier idea to just take myself apart and get rid of the requirements to start with.

I feel that Arthur C Clarke was perhaps more correct than the producers of Trek when he suggested that humans would eventually find a way to condense their intelligence into crystals of light that would then be able to travel through the stars without the need for crafts.

If you're hot up to date on your data storage and neural interfacing, that is a supremely viable idea. Light can be crystallised. And by doing so, you can store quantities of data within a 3D crystal lattice that make anything we have now look pathetic. A handful of crystallised light could wipe out the entirity of the data you've ever written to tape, CD, DVD, HD or whatever else you've ever recorded something on. With neural interfaces progressing towards total interconnectivity with a human brain, could it be that Arthur has beaten Trek to the reality of what space travel will be?

I am, of coarse, ruling out the idea of travelling at conventional speeds given that it's totally unrealistic given the size of the universe.

#2 bgwowk

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 09:25 PM

There is no such thing as "crystallized light". On the other hand, people comfortable with the philosophy of identity sometimes called "patternism" could encode the molecular structure of their body and brain into a signal sent on a beam of light across interstellar distances to a receiver that would rebuild them out of local materials. That would be a real-life equivalent of a Star Trek transporter. The receivers themselves would be built out of local materials by very small and fast "seed ships". With intelligent self-replicating technology, a payload the side of a grapefruit or maybe even a walnut could industrialize an entire planetary system ready to receive laser-encoded migration of millions of people, transhumans, or whatever our radically-advanced biological or machine descendants will call themselves in the future.

A more conservative approach would be to send memory and personality reconstruction information along with the probes, although this is not as efficient as the transmission/reception approach.

A still more conservative approach is to send brains along for the ride, either in biostasis or continuing to learn and grow in virtual reality during the trip. Bodies would be regenerated at the destination.

A even more conservative approach is to send along whole bodies, either in biostasis or entertained in virtual reality.

As you've pointed out, the least efficient mode of interstellar travel is Star-Trek-style full life support of whole people with natural mobility instead of simulated mobility in virtual reality. It could be done, it's just very inefficient. Natural selection will favor fast, efficient travellers. It therefore seems inevitable that the galaxy will be colonized by patternist beings using travel methods at the top of this list. Beings who travel in big resource-intensive ships will always trail behind a wave of "hyper tech" patternists ahead of them. Makes one wonder whether there will be any matter or energy resources left for slow travellers. Will galaxies have "core rot" like unmanaged cities today?

I am, of coarse, ruling out the idea of travelling at conventional speeds given that it's totally unrealistic given the size of the universe.

Sub-light travel is underrated. Even travelling at only 1% of the speed of light, the galaxy will be colonized in 10 million years. Geologically and cosmically, that's a blink of an eye.

---BrianW

#3 JonesGuy

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 11:18 PM

I don't know if we'll have core rot, because the oldest civilizations will continue to have a technological advantage over the newer civilizations. And local information trade between stars will continue to give advantage to those with the most infrastructure.

I think that the new colonies will be materially more wealthy, but technologically less wealthy. If only for the fact that any information they get from the mother colonies will be a few years out of date by the time they get it.

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#4 johnuk

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 11:41 PM

(bgwowk)
There is no such thing as "crystallized light".
---BrianW



Not the light it's self, but light can be said to 'crystallise' if it's slowed down enough. By shooting the beam into some certain materials the beam will slow right down to walking speed. This idea has reach the stage where a beam will actually stop dead in the substance and then reappear when instructed to do so. The materials are Bose-Einstein condensates. The material is set into and out of read / write mode by shining a second laser, UV, into it. When the data beam enters the material it 'crystallises' onto the spin states of the electrons. Because of electron pairing, the probability of the spin states decoupling and returning to their original state is very, very low. So the data is locked into the spin states. To unlock the spin states you need to alter the second beam. This idea has actually been demonstrated in reality.

My original idea was virtually word for word the same as yours, that the fastest way would be to establish buffer nodes and simply send the data as light. One thing that made me wonder about that was beam divergence, data rate and interference.

Even really high quality lasers still have some degree of divergence and begin to loose coherence over just planet to planet distances. The next mission to Mars will have the highest speed data link on it and it'll be running at 30Mbits, which isn't particularly great. The beam will have diverged to hundreds of kilometers by the time it reaches Earth.

Lots of current space based travel is done with microwaves. The laser link has a higher frequency, so it can also carry more data. I think they may have chosen an IR laser for it's power output and reliability. With all the beam divergence the light will be incredibly faint, so they need as much optical output from the laser as possible. Blue lasers would carry more data but they're still very new, have low power output and tend to fail a lot quicker.

The greater the power output you need from the laser, to account for divergence etc, the harder it is to modulate it, decreasing transmission speed.

So laser transmission between starts would need quite a special laser. My thoughts were that it would probably end up being simpler to, as you say, send out seeding ships that drop buffer nodes behind them as and when the signal from the last begins to fade. I imagine it would be similar to laying the first transatlantic cable but without the risk of it being torn.

One problem that could exist is finding a clear pathway. Planets, moons, clouds of cosmic dust, radiation, solar flares, pulsars could all intefere with the beam it's self or the nodes.

I suppose the ultimate would be a gamma wave laser, but they need such a huge energy bandgap they're quite difficult to make.

That's why I began to wonder about condensing the data down into the smallest possible mass, thinking it may prove more effective to bundle off a small mass in a very quick ship than it would be to use a collection of nodes and beams. Both still better the Star Trek idea by a long way.

The virtual reality during transit is an idea. That would be easier to implement with the data stored in a physical form. It might also be easier to 'put the consciousness to sleep' rather than try to generate a world for it to virtually explore. In effect, you'd go to sleep and dream about things until you arrive. That would cut out all the stuff needed to generate the virtual reality - additional memory & processing.

I would hope that we would be moving away from producing the horrendously inefficient designs we do now by that time. That by the time we can explore tens of different planets, or tens of starts, we would be aiming to create tools with the highest possible efficiency. Maybe we could make it an ethical space usage law, conservation of the universe! [lol]

One thing that amazes me is how readily our current space project fail or just go missing altogether. Beagle for example. I saw a programme about the project. The airbags went into the low pressure test chamber not long before launch. They burst. The bags went back for redesign. Time ran out and they had to be launched without being tested. It's virtually a guarantee they burst again when they got to Mars. And then there's the US probe. One set of co-ordinates in metric, the other in imperial. No more probe.

Seems to me that someone, somewhere in the chain of things doesn't fully appreciate the cost, time and effort, all of which are always huge, that went into these projects, nore their overall importance to humanity. Call me picky, but I would have had a major problem if that was my probe and the only thing stopping it from being smashed into bits when it hit the floor were bursting before it ever got there.

I also think we need to stop trying to run before we can walk. Rather than continue to send individual probes down to pootle around and collect data, start a project to make it easier to get there in the first place. The whole thing would be much easier if it didn't rely on the probe it's self being able to bounce off the floor. If you know you're going to make multiple landings, having each probe carrying it's own runway with it is a waste. Something needs building on the surface to help collect the probes.

Simplest idea... send one ultra basic probe to land at your building site and inflate a huge air cushion. Have the probe send out marker signals to guide the new probes onto the cushion. Design it like a big baseball glove that catches the probe and then lets it roll out of a hole in the bottom.

Make sure you send your probe to somewhere flat and interesting so that you can slowly drop more and more tools onto the site. Eventually you can have the tools start construction of a landing site for manned craft. Once humans get there the rest will be easy.

Sub-light travel is underrated.  Even travelling at only 1% of the speed of light, the galaxy will be colonized in 10 million years.  Geologically and cosmically, that's a blink of an eye.

---BrianW



Perhaps, but there are a multitude of galaxies in our field of view and our field of view certainly doesn't reach to the edge of the universe; if it has an edge [lol] I assume the 10 million years estimate is also based on the idea that we could make steady, none stop progress from one side to the other.

How could Star Trek have misled me so!?
John

#5 bgwowk

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 12:15 AM

Even really high quality lasers still have some degree of divergence and begin to loose coherence over just planet to planet distances.

It's not a problem. I ran the numbers once, and a coherent array of 1 kW per square meter light emitters a couple of hundred meters across would have the same visual brightness as the sun at any distance. (In other words, if the sun is 4th magnitude 10 parsecs away, this laser would be appear 4th magnitude. If the sun is 9th magnitude at 100 parsecs, the laser would be 9th mag, etc.) It just has to be aimed with sub-arcsecond accuracy.

How could Star Trek have misled me so!?

It didn't. You'll have your Constitution class starship with Yeoman Rand, but in virtual reality while enroute. :)

---BrianW

#6 johnuk

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 12:58 AM

It's not a problem.  I ran the numbers once, and a coherent  array of 1 kW per square meter light emitters a couple of hundred meters across would have the same visual brightness as the sun at any distance.  (In other words, if the sun is 4th magnitude 10 parsecs away, this laser would be appear 4th magnitude.  If the sun is 9th magnitude at 100 parsecs, the laser would be 9th mag, etc.)  It just has to be aimed with sub-arcsecond accuracy.


And then you have to modulate that 1kW array at extremely high frequencies if you want to make us of the speed afforded by light in the first place. If the modulation rate is slow, it might actually be easier to just get in a ship and fly there.

You could probably build a reasonably sized 1kW array using solid state diodes. No need to make it huge, provided it has enough output power and is point in the right direction the divergence will make it easy to see. If they were away in a shaded part of space, heat generation wouldn't really be a problem in the way that it is on Earth. It would, however, also mean you were wasting power, which would be a problem. Even big satellites aim to use hundreds of watts. 1kW just for the laser is big, specially if that's 1kW of optical output, which will mean kilowatts of input.

Then you still have coherency problems with the light slipping out of phase over long distances, causing data errors.

But yeah, it's probably one of the few ways it's going to occur at realistic speeds and a lot of those problems could be addressed with better laser design.

How could Star Trek have misled me so!?
It didn't.  You'll have your Constitution class starship with Yeoman Rand, but in virtual reality while enroute. ;)

---BrianW


That's good, provided it's not DS9. DS9 isn't legally Star Trek. They don't even go anywhere, so how can it be a Trek!?

Raises an interesting question, why would people want to explore the stars? If you can manipulate you mind to this level, boxing it up and shipping it off to stars, the majority of humans, not being able to afford, get access to, or just to lazy or scared to travel, could remain at the starting point and experience the events by proxy in virtual recreations of the environment. Kind of like trying a holiday before you actually go.

Being able to do these kinds of things with your mind would open up our world right here to a level that would beg to be explored at least for a little while. Being able to repair massive amounts of neural damage (new eyes for people, repairing of severed spinal cords), addition of new sensory experiences (magnetic field sensors, eyes that can see more of the spectrum), the ability to jump the comparably tiny distances around the world and explore bits of it, swapping bodies with people, creating your own virtual environments to have fun and learn in... loads of stuff to keep people happy and busy whilst others go exploring.

Most of the stuff out there will be empty and unspectacular. All that can be condensed down to it's essence and only the interesting stuff need be cataloged in detail for other's to experience. Although, by then, we'll probably be edging into what were formally physically separate beings existing more as closely linked amalgamation of memories; if you have all the memories of another, the differences between you come down only to how you process those memories, which is likely to be minimal.

John

#7 LifeMirage

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 11:48 AM

That's good, provided it's not DS9. DS9 isn't legally Star Trek. They don't even go anywhere, so how can it be a Trek!?


They do have that stable wormhole nearby...saves on storing up on antimatter.

#8 advancedatheist

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 03:16 PM

How could Star Trek have misled me so!?

It didn't. You'll have your Constitution class starship with Yeoman Rand, but in virtual reality while enroute. ;)

---BrianW


Yeoman Rand? Ugh, she looked like a skank to me, with that absurd beehive hairdo, miniskirt, dark stockings and go-go boots, not to mention her vulgar face. (She wouldn't seem out of place as a guard on the night shift at Abu Ghraib.) As far as I can tell, she served mainly to appear frightened or at least anxious, so that she could seek and receive reassurance from Captain Kirk.

I think the recent Trek spinoffs, with their pneumatic female Borgs and Vulcans, may have gone too far in the other direction, however. When I first saw Jeri Ryan in her Seven of Nine costume on the cover of TV Guide, I realized that the people who make Trek have a lot of contempt for their audience.

#9 Mind

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 03:33 PM

Star Trek was good sci-fi for the time period when it was first released (same with Buck Rogers, Star Wars, and Battleship Galactica), but in today's world it is sadly no longer good sci-fi. Sci-fi is a tough business to be in with everything changing so fast.

#10 simple

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 03:34 PM

...over the last year or so the entire idea, not just Trek it's self, has started to seem incorrect...

That is why is called Science Fiction.

#11 bgwowk

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 06:33 PM

What happened to what idea "over the last year or so"? Do you mean some idea in your own mind?

---BrianW

#12 simple

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 07:15 PM

Sorry, let me quote from JOHNUK

"But over the last year or so the entire idea, not just Trek it's self, has started to seem incorrect. That of humans and interstella travel onboard space ships."

That is why is called Science Fiction.

#13 johnmk

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 07:39 PM

But we don't want it to be fiction. :) It seems like such a utopian existence, so appealing in some way, an ideal that we can strive for despite its fictional beginning. That's one of the several reasons people take it so seriously. And that's not so ludicrous -- if we settle for merely the achievable (that being subjective), the pace of progress is stifled.

#14 simple

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 07:48 PM

Please look at :

www.enigmas.org/aef/lib/archeo/askulls.shtml

and,

www.starchildproject.com/

#15 Live Forever

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 09:35 PM

http://www.trektoday...210406_01.shtml

New Star Trek film due out in 2008.

#16 Live Forever

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 10:58 PM

http://news.bbc.co.u...ure/4968338.stm

Mathematicians propose "Cloaking device" concept, similar to that used in Star Trek.

Interesting...

#17 AdamDavis

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 07:49 PM

Mathematicians propose "Cloaking device" concept, similar to that used in Star Trek


Nate, do you happened to have subscribed to the KurzweilAI newsletter?

#18 Live Forever

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 08:00 PM

Nate, do you happened to have subscribed to the KurzweilAI newsletter?


No, I was unaware they had one. I might look into it though now that I know. Did they discuss a similar concept?

#19 Shepard

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Posted 22 May 2006 - 10:46 PM

Kirk and Spock meeting at Starfleet Academy? Sonuvabitch...Everyone knows that they didn't meet until Kirk took over command of the Enterprise from Pike.

Why can't the writers of these things keep up with what occurs in the extended universe? Lucas damn sure didn't.

I'd much rather see Shatner/Nimoy reprise their roles, along with the surviving command crew (Koenig/Takei/Nichols). I think Shatner's books could make some fantastic movies.

It's amazing women will sleep with me.

#20 MichaelAnissimov

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 01:57 PM

I doubt that our civilization will even want to expand outside of the solar system.

Brain implants and uploading will cause us to experience way more in way less time. A minute will seem like a year, our brains will be moving so fast.

Other star systems will start to look incredibly distant. Every time there is a brain-engineering advance that allows us to process data twice as quickly, the stars will seem twice as remote. Eventually they will become quintillions of subjective years away.

We will send out probes, to be sure, but our minds will speed up so fast as they are in transit that it could be a near-eternity before we see them arrive.

John also has a point, that space is really boring.

#21 kraemahz

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 05:01 PM

Michael,

It's a little silly to think that posthumans would be more impatient than us. There is only so much information that can be gathered from one solar system, and with that much processing power we'd soon have calculated it all. So, if anything, boredom would come out of being in the same place for more than a few million years.

Similarly, there are severe energy limitations for one star, even with a Dyson sphere there is a finite amount of energy the star puts out, and thus a finite amount of processes that can be supported. Furthermore, the Sun isn't exactly eternal and we'll eventually need to move on to find something else.

Thanks to relativity, even if we don't find some sort of warp drive, travelling near the speed of light would only make the trip a few weeks for the traveller. Posthumans will be leaving in the droves. There are some really interesting experiments out there, and not many of them can be performed with the mother star.

#22 AdamDavis

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 06:26 PM

No, I was unaware they had one. I might look into it though now that I know. Did they discuss a similar concept?


Actually, the newsletter that had the article in discussed the very same one :) . It links to the Guardian Unlimited website rather than the BBC site.

Guardian Unlimited

The KurzweilAI newsletter is very good. I definitely recommend it.

#23 Live Forever

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 06:41 PM

Actually, the newsletter that had the article in discussed the very same one  :) . It links to the Guardian Unlimited website rather than the BBC site.

Guardian Unlimited

The KurzweilAI newsletter is very good. I definitely recommend it.


Nice, thanks for the heads up! I will subscribe to it. [thumb]




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