33 replies to this topic

[crzyakta]

Hi All,

 

  Curious if anyone has found any information regarding Lithium Orotate use with rhodiola (3% rosavins); I as for the seemingly positive glutamate balance provided with the Li and the near stimulate effects of RR.  One helps calm and reduce aggression whilst the other provides energy and reduces physical exhaustion.

 

  I got interested in LiOrotate primarily due to the fact that I have MTR / MTRR SNPs that may indicate issues utilizing B12.  Dr Amy Yasko promotes the idea that these SNPs cause heavy Li excretion (a hair test proved this to be the case) and she further states that Li is important to assist in shuttling B12 into the cells.  I am looking to avoid any effects Li Oroate may have on my energy levels and have begun using RR + caffeine to ensure I do not get dragged down as I have read anecdotal reports of Li doing this to some folks.  Perhaps the following stack for energy / mood, thoughts?

 

-160mg caffeine

-200mg Rhodiola rosea w/ 3% rosavins & 1% salidrosides

-240mg Lithium Orotate

 

Other daily supps I take: 5000 IU D3, 2 concentrated fish oil caps, 250mg cal citrate, 200mg mag citrate, 200mg grapeseed extract, 'Alive' Men's Ultra potency multi.

 

Thanks for any input!

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

240 mg Li sounds like a lot... aren't most pills around 5mg?

[crzyakta]

Hi Snake, each 120mg lithium orotate tablet only provides 4.6mg of elemental lithium

[crzyakta]

bump, any thoughts?

[jack black]

Maybe your​ are the first to try that combo? Please do report back.

[gamesguru]

they're 120mg, but 5mg elemental (the orotate group accounts for most of the molecular weight).  it sounds promising indeed, a lot like ginseng and ssri for anhedonic depression (rhodiola and lithium).  though the b12 seems to be tacked on a bit randomly imo

[Elroy]

It's extremely unlikely that dose of lithium would significantly affect your energy levels. However, taking it with food will slow absorption and reduce any acute effect. Dose splitting works if you are extremely sensitive to the acute effect.

At such low doses, the "lack of energy" is more likely an underlying state that's being revealed by Lithium dampening over-stimulation, perhaps by glutamate as you mentioned.

I'd suggest trying the lithium without caffeine or rhodiola and see what happens. If you feel lack of energy, start looking at underlying causes before regularly taking stimulants, as they could exacerbate some conditions and leave you much worse off.

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

Has anyone tried this,.. I bought a box but haven't tried it yet, my CNS/ANS are torched and I'm afraid of adding anything at the moment

[Elroy]

Has anyone tried this,.. I bought a box but haven't tried it yet, my CNS/ANS are torched and I'm afraid of adding anything at the moment

 

Yeah, I have. Up to 10 mg (elemental) lithium per day will be totally fine for anyone. In your case, I'd steer completely clear of caffeine and be very wary of Rhodiola. Why do you think your CNS/ANS are torched?

[Omega 3 Snake Oil]

 

Has anyone tried this,.. I bought a box but haven't tried it yet, my CNS/ANS are torched and I'm afraid of adding anything at the moment

 

Yeah, I have. Up to 10 mg (elemental) lithium per day will be totally fine for anyone. In your case, I'd steer completely clear of caffeine and be very wary of Rhodiola. Why do you think your CNS/ANS are torched?

 

 

Lyme disease with endless neuro/dysautonomia symptoms: insomnia, central sleep apnea, POTS, low body temp, cognitive dysfunction with chronic fatigue, etc. Have reacted poorly to NSI-189, pregnenolone, and other things. Found out recently from a geneticist I have severe methylation issues.

[Elroy]

 

Lyme disease with endless neuro/dysautonomia symptoms: insomnia, central sleep apnea, POTS, low body temp, cognitive dysfunction with chronic fatigue, etc. Have reacted poorly to NSI-189, pregnenolone, and other things. Found out recently from a geneticist I have severe methylation issues.

 

You can probably manage some of the symptoms with antioxidants and Longvida curcumin for neurological inflammation, blue-blocking glasses for 4 hours before bed and blackout room/sleep mask, a couple of bites of chicken/mouthful of cottage cheese immediately before sleep and if you wake during the night, the recommended sleep apnea treatment. Which SNPs do you have?

 

Obviously, the biggest improvement will come from treating the Lyme, how's that going? I've read that many Lyme sufferers have HPU (hemopyrolactamuria, aka pyroluria) and for those who do, treating it is a necessary component of treating Lyme. It's worth doing a urine test for HPL (hydroxyhemopyrrolin-2-one) and if you have it, seek a knowledgeable practitioner for treatment.

[brosci]

My current stack includes a pinch of Li.  I'm using the LEF Memory Protect supplement in the morning @ just 300 micrograms of lithium as Li Orotate (which has something like 3x brain uptake as compared with carbonate.)  This includes a 100mcg dose of colostrinin every other day.  Then, I'm alternating between a handful of polyphenol / nootropic cocktails on different days -- Rhodiola + Bacopa + aGPC as Nootrobox's Rise, Curcumin as Longvida, Aniracetam + CDP Choline + Phosphatidylserine + Pycnogenol as Axon Labs: Nexus, and Resveratrol + Quercetin + Green Tea Extract via Longevinex.  Lately, I'm also tossing in Vitamin C, B12, and Oxaloacetate as Bulletproof's KetoPrime.  Then, I take my Methyl-B12 + Adenosyl-B12 + Methyl-Folate via Seeking Health's Active Lozenge.

 

My thought process on the polyphenol & nootropic cycling is to avoid overdoing any one compound (or missing the benefits from other compounds.)  I feel like this somewhat mimic's the diversity you would get from different foods.  It's a pretty big expensive stack, so I'm not sure how long I'll keep this up (although, only taking something like Longevinex just once every 4 days or so really stretches it out.)

 

Out of all of these supplements, the one with Rhodiola is the most likely to increase my inner sense of "Wow, this is a great day!"  I find it pairs very well with B12 / Li.  The Rhodiola pairs exceptionally well with Coffee (even swiss water decaf.)  Lately, I do 15g of decaf : 5g regular in the morning, providing something like ~50mg caffeine or so.

Edited by brosci, 24 May 2017 - 02:21 AM.

[normalizing]

so im confused, one pill stating 5mg lithium orotate contains 120mg orotate and 5 mg lithium or do you need 120mg of 5mg lithium orotate to get 5mg elemental lithium??

[Elroy]

120 mg lithium orotate contains 4.6mg elemental lithium, so one tablet/capsule is approx. 5mg elemental lithium.

[normalizing]

so the ones i have which are 5mg lithium orotate, how many i need to take to get 4.6mg lithium? it seems maybe what, a dozen?

[Elroy]

hazy, I'm 99.999% sure the ones you have will be 5mg elemental, so you take one to get 5mg lithium. You can post pictures of the label if you'd like me to double check for you.

[normalizing]

https://www.amazon.c...lithium orotate

 

here is what i dont get. if one pill is 5mg lithium, where is the orotate in that 5mg pill? it must be present at some mg, no?

[Elroy]

 tmp_lithium.jpg   29.9KB   1 downloads

 

The label says it's 5mg (elemental) lithium. It says it's in the form of lithium orotate. It does not say how much lithium orotate is in there, although from looking at other brands you can see it's around 120mg, so around 115mg of the total weight of one capsule is orotate (orotic acid salt).

[normalizing]

interesting, because i take 2 caps to about 10mg lithium, i feel nothing. is this not strange since people report feeling like zombies at 1mg lithium? honestly, i use it as antipshycotic and its not working

[Elroy]

You'd need to take upwards of 85mg/day for that. While the vast majority of people can tolerate up to 100mg/day, you should monitor kidney function to make sure. I recommend seeing a qualified health professional, to make sure you don't harm your health.

[normalizing]

wow, that sounds a bit excessive. i keep reading on people taking small doses between 1mg and 5mg and you are saying someone would need up to 100mg to feel effect. that is weird

[Elroy]

A nutritional dosage of 5-10mg will prevent deficiency and provide neuroprotection.

i use it as antipshycotic and its not working

An extremely high dosage is required for an antipsychotic effect, you might start to feel such an effect at 85mg, but you may need much higher. A mood stabilisation effect will probably occur at a dosage between 40mg and 100mg.

[normalizing]

wow im so surprised by this since its not discussed in many places. i keep reading 5mg is ok and too high of that is toxic, thats what i gather from this forum at least. but thanks for information. it makes sense since orotate caps are so cheap, heh, you need dozen of them to work for its intended purposes making them finish quick. i still wonder, in your opinion, is carbonate prescription better than orotate? i checked google, it says orotate is well tolerated but officially carbonate is only prescription and there must be a reason for this, i suppose

[Elroy]

There are some claims that lithium orotate is more bioavailable to the brain than lithium carbonate, but I haven't seen any proof of that, both forms work the same for me. Lithium carbonate was the first form used and inertia in the medical, especially psychiatric community is extreme, so they keep using it. There's no advantage to using carbonate over orotate, unless you can't tolerate large amounts of orotic acid, or you get a prescription you can claim on insurance.

Up to 10mg will be fine for everyone. I've never read or heard of toxicity up to 40mg. The vast majority of people can tolerate up to 100mg, without toxicity.

A creatinine clearance test will measure your kidney function and confirm that you're okay. This is highly recommended when you're taking high doses.

If you take over 100mg/day you must have regular blood tests to make sure you're not reaching toxic levels.

[Elroy]

A typical psychiatric dosage is between 170mg and 450mg.

[jack black]

interesting, because i take 2 caps to about 10mg lithium, i feel nothing. is this not strange since people report feeling like zombies at 1mg lithium? honestly, i use it as antipshycotic and its not working

Lithium is good for a few different things, but antipsychotic? Where did you get this? BTW Li works better when taken in mid PM. It has to do with diurnal rhythm.

Edited by jack black, 29 May 2017 - 02:06 PM.

[normalizing]

^ uhm that is its main indication... mostly bipolar but its kind of the same in many regards.

 

elroy, may i ask how much mgs do you take and for what purpose exactly? and you tried both forms and they work the same way, no differences at all? im surprised since you do mention the orotate form is more bioavailable therefore you must be feeling some difference, no?

[jack black]

I thought antipsychotics were antidopamine drugs used in schizophrenia.

[Elroy]

though the b12 seems to be tacked on a bit randomly imo

 

I have MTRR SNPs (A66G +-, 11 +-), which means I inefficiently burn more B12 to function normally. This was predicted to result in a lithium deficiency and confirmed by a HTMA test (hair tissue mineral analysis).

 

, i use it as antipshycotic and its not working

Lithium is good for a few different things, but antipsychotic? Where did you get this? BTW Li works better when taken in mid PM. It has to do with diurnal rhythm.

 

Yeah, technically it's a mood stabiliser at high dosages, but it's used at extremely high dosages for meth induced psychosis and mania. That's interesting what you're saying about diurnal rhythm, can you elaborate? I take it immediately before sleep.

 

elroy, may i ask how much mgs do you take and for what purpose exactly? and you tried both forms and they work the same way, no differences at all? im surprised since you do mention the orotate form is more bioavailable therefore you must be feeling some difference, no?

 

I take between 15mg and 30mg to correct a nutritional deficiency and for neuroprotection. I notice absolutely no difference between forms. I said there are claims that lithium orotate is more bioavailable to the brain, but I haven't seen any proof to back it up... if anyone has, I'd appreciate links.

[Elroy]

I thought antipsychotics were antidopamine drugs used in schizophrenia.

 

Yeah, a common target of drugs classed as antipsychotics is DRD2 antagonism. Although anything that reduces psychosis could be said to have an "antipsychotic effect," even if it's not classed as an antipsychotic drug.