17 replies to this topic

[FunkOdyssey]

Effect of coenzyme Q(10) intake on endogenous coenzyme Q content, mitochondrial electron transport chain, antioxidative defenses, and life span of mice.

Sohal RS, Kamzalov S, Sumien N, Ferguson M, Rebrin I, Heinrich KR, Forster MJ.

Department of Molecular Pharmacology and Toxicology, University of Southern California, 1985 Zonal Avenue, PSC 608, Los Angeles, CA 90089-9121, USA.

The main purpose of this study was to determine whether intake of coenzyme Q(10), which can potentially act as both an antioxidant and a prooxidant, has an impact on indicators of oxidative stress and the aging process. Mice were fed diets providing daily supplements of 0, 93, or 371 mg CoQ(10) /kg body weight, starting at 3.5 months of age. Effects on mitochondrial superoxide generation, activities of oxidoreductases, protein oxidative damage, glutathione redox state, and life span of male mice were determined. Amounts of CoQ(9) and CoQ(10), measured after 3.5 or 17.5 months of intake, in homogenates and mitochondria of liver, heart, kidney, skeletal muscle, and brain increased with the dosage and duration of CoQ(10) intake in all the tissues except brain. Activities of mitochondrial electron transport chain oxidoreductases, rates of mitochondrial O(2) generation, state 3 respiration, carbonyl content, glutathione redox state of tissues, and activities of superoxide dismutase, catalase, and glutathione peroxidase, determined at 19 or 25 months of age, were unaffected by CoQ(10) administration. Life span studies, conducted on 50 mice in each group, showed that CoQ(10) administration had no effect on mortality. Altogether, the results indicated that contrary to the historical view, supplemental intake of CoQ(10) elevates the endogenous content of both CoQ(9) and CoQ(10), but has no discernable effect on the main antioxidant defenses or prooxidant generation in most tissues, and has no impact on the life span of mice.

PMID: 16443163

I guess we can take whatever money was being spent on high CoQ10 doses and contribute that to the MPrize (or on Geronova R-ALA, depending on your priorities).

[kevink]

Curse you funkodyssey and your pubmed trolling! [lol]

Good find...thanks.

[xanadu]

One study proves little. I just saw a study in the paper that claimed glucosamine and chondroitin were no better than placebos in treating arthritic pain. I happen to know for a fact that they work and lots of other people know it as well. You might as well say food has no impact on hunger. People do not keep buying a product for decades just on placebo effect. Pain is real and if something works people don't care what the pointy headed crowd thinks, they know it works.

This reminds me of how for many decades the medical establishment claimed that taking vitamins in excess of rda was a waste of money and just gave you "expensive urine". I've heard that urine statement many time. They no longer say that but there is lots of resistance to non-pharmaceutical treatments. No doctors get a payoff from otc compounds. Wonder if that's why they are against them?

[simple]

CO Q10- is overrated IDEBENONE is the stuff yuou want to have, I posted a challenge for any one to try Indium Sulfate, since it demonstrated life extrension capabilitys, still no answer.

[syr_]

I posted a challenge for any one to try Indium Sulfate, since it demonstrated life extrension capabilitys, still no answer.

Some reference?

Edited by syr_, 03 March 2006 - 01:07 AM.

[ajnast4r]

was its trans or cis isomer coQ10, yeast or tobacco source?

theres alot more that goes into this stuff than just 'administering coq10'...alot of tests dont use the proper forms, which is why some trials fail and some are successful.

[simple]

SYR: I mentioned a post earlier in which I mentioned that I have been uising Indium Sulfate, this kind of open a can of worms, last posting by me, I issue a challenge if anybody would try Indium Sulfate, I have been using it for 3 years and I have had good results with it, look for some of my posts and you will find additional info. Any questions I am open .

[drmz]

nootropics seems to be in a recession lately

[syr_]

SYR: I mentioned a post earlier in which I mentioned that I have been uising Indium Sulfate, this kind of open a can of worms, last posting by me, I issue a challenge if anybody would try Indium Sulfate, I have been using it for 3 years and I have had good results with it, look for some of my posts and you will find additional info. Any questions I am open .

I was asking for pubmed references. I dont try new supps anymore unless they have a few promising studies to support it.
I'll check your old posts anyway.

[opales]

I guess we can take whatever money was being spent on high CoQ10 doses and contribute that to the MPrize

You're comment made me cry of happiness

[FunkOdyssey]

Yeah, I am reevaulating my spending priorities a little bit lately. I was getting a little carried away and extravagant with my supplement purchases. MR's guidelines on cron-web.org were eye-opening, and convinced me to reduce my supplementation to the core group of substances most likely to be effective (although, most people would consider any supplement program that involves $100 of r-lipoic acid monthly to still be extravagent).

If you have the foresight to take supplements now that you will not likely reap the benefits of for 30+ years, I don't see how you can avoid supporting the MPrize. I suppose you could have the mindset that you will be the one guy who doesn't contribute and still reap the rewards anyway. However, if everyone feels that way, no progress will be made.

[opales]

Yeah, I am reevaulating my spending priorities a little bit lately.  I was getting a little carried away and extravagant with my supplement purchases.  MR's guidelines on cron-web.org were eye-opening, and convinced me to reduce my supplementation to the core group of substances most likely to be effective (although, most people would consider any supplement program that involves $100 of r-lipoic acid monthly to still be extravagent).

If you have the foresight to take supplements now that you will not likely reap the benefits of for 30+ years, I don't see how you can avoid supporting the MPrize.  I suppose you could have the mindset that you will be the one guy who doesn't contribute and still reap the rewards anyway.  However, if everyone feels that way, no progress will be made.

People like you are the reason I keep ranting (over the issues that I rant about) regardless of topic at hand. Seeing your metamorphosis gives me strength to rant twice the harder in the future. Heck, maybe you'll even turn to ranter someday.

Btw focusing on the ones most likely to be effective greatly reduces the chance of ingesting something that is counteractive, possibly enough to undermine all the effective substances and more. This is the one area where guys with small (stacks) do better.

I was getting a little carried away and extravagant with my supplement purchases.

Now we got to make the three thousand other members posting at supplements and nootropics section realize this too.

[ajnast4r]

opales; do you take any supplements? or you one of those guys that thinks they 'dont do anything'

[FunkOdyssey]

I'm certain he does. What are you taking opales? Inquiring minds want to know.

[opales]

opales; do you take any supplements? or you one of those guys that thinks they 'dont do anything'

Actually I do. I've been mostly using the same MR cron.web presentation as funkodyssey as my reference (it should be a pinned article on the supplement section). And I do follow the CR lists for more recent updates (better knowledge and less pseudoscience there as people are more harcore), I am not CRing yet though. But I do think most supplements are WAAYYY overrated, especially in the long term use.

I try to follow an otherwise fairly healthy lifestyle (diet, exercise), so I would guessestimate my supplement usage perhaps gives at MAXIMUM 1-2 years (expected valued) of extended life span than I would achieve without them. I think that the effect is anyway neglible, so I really try to focus on other things in realm of life extension that actually could save my ass from dying. I advocate the cause as much as I feel comfortable, try to learn about the actual science (as I said, I have read Aubrey's papers, gives good perspective on supplements too BTW) and am currently actively looking for an opportunity to transfer to the biotechnology field. And of course, I bash all the supplement enthusiasts here with aim of converting them into more hard core life extensionists.

I am not undermining keeping health. However, in my field there is an 20/80 rule where 80% of the good things is achieved by focusing on the most important 20% of things. I think most people should pretty much know those most important 20% regarding keeping health from high school already (somewhat healthy diet, moderate exercise), there is not really that much you can do after those are OK. I find supplement usage somewhat suspect as most people don't even get those basic things right, even though they have an INCREDIBLY large body of evidence supporting their effectiveness (thousands of studies), way more than the current supplements ever will have. Even for the most promising supps the evidence is very weak.

So basically I just feel all effort put on supplements is dumb because it is just polishing irrelevant details. I bet the expected value of extended life span for every dollar put into MPrize is many times the expected value of extended life span when that same dollar it put into supps, especially after you have the very basics under control. Not to mention the expected value of extended life span for every hour spent on advocacy compared to expected value of extended lifespan for every hour spent on weighing whether you should take some supp or not.

CR would probably work, but that's pretty rigorous and has serious side effects so I am not sure whether effort justifies to reward (which might be only few extra years, read the study by Michael Rose). BTW, the evidence weight for CR is also much larger than any current supp will ever achieve, yet even that might not be very effective. I hope resveratrol works (I drink 1-2 glasses wine or grape juice a day), but currently I am not holding my breath. I really do think CR mimetics help when they eventually arrive, but they are just not here yet. And anyway that would still probably not get that much extra years and possibly have all the CR side-effects, such as lost libido.

Anyway, you think LifeMirages credentials was important? not really. THIS IS IMPORTANT:

http://www.imminst.o...t=0

Edited by opales, 03 March 2006 - 11:18 PM.

[opales]

I'm certain he does.  What are you taking opales?  Inquiring minds want to know.

I am in higher tiers of MR's presentation, so compared to regular people, yes I take quite a few supplements. Do not want to reveal any details though, I still want rant about it

[DukeNukem]

Where is MR's list?

[FunkOdyssey]

Here: http://www.cron-web....ts-guide-1.html