18 replies to this topic

[orangish]

Any ideas on how to enhance dopamine without causing excess edginess?
Are there any nootropics (or supplements) out there to complement such supplementation and aid in a terribly unfocused/discouraged person's ability to be able to focus not just during a convo. but also reach higher level thinking?

THanks.

[orangish]

Thanks da_sense. Perhaps I should add that I have some vague anxiety problems, perhaps due to a tremendous amount of lifestyle stress...
So maybe this helps inform other experiences/reflections.

[johnmk]

The last time I'll say it tonight. Exercise. Cardio in particular. 5 times per week, 30 minutes, intense. This will likely help with both areas of concern you have, and it has the advantage of having many other beneficial effects.

[kenj]

You say you have some vague anxiety problems, so I would focus on keeping any stimulants (caffeine, sugar junk) low and calm your brain.
I think it doesn't make sense to "boost" your dopamine for memory effect when you're feeling anxious (even a little) because your GABA/serotonin systems may be too weak to preserve the dopamine. For example if I take a solid dose of dopamine agents like Mucuna Pruriens with a few cups of coffee I become very spaced and foggy. I would expect the same from Deprenyl (?) although I've never tried it.

50-100mg of 5-HTP with a vitamin B complex taken in the evening will elevate your serotonin and induce a good nights sleep, also critical for neurotransmitter production.

In the morning (after you're totally rested) you can take L-Tyrosine (1-3G) and Rhodiola Rosea 3% (150mg) for helping your memory via dopamine.

Theanine is rumoured on this board to give a calming effect during the day, - start with 200-400mg with food.
Speaking of food: A chicken (and other poultry) salad, fish and kidney beans, an omelet with spinach and a lowfat cottage cheese vegetable salad with walnuts are good sources of Tyrosine, - you shouldn't eat too much Tyrosine-rich food before bed though.

Exercise.  Cardio in particular. 5 times per week, 30 minutes, intense.

This is totally anecdotal but I find weight training is better in boosting dopamine than cardio, - a nice long run leaves me very relaxed while weight-bearing exercise *energizes* me more. Both are important.

[orangish]

Mm. I know, I def. have to get running again. How long does the 5-htp etc take to work?
Is there anything anyone can suggest in the short term for focus that won't ruin me anymore? (i've signed off caffeine because i think that's partly what got me into this mess)

No on rhodiola until anxiety's gone?
What about vincopetine?

[kenj]

How long does the 5-htp etc take to work?

For me (if I *remember* correct ) it took a few hours with 50mg and B and C vitamin(s) (with no stimulants in my body at the time) -- giving me the best 8 hours of rejuvenating sleep for years, - woke up totally reborn. Very calmed and settled. It may take a few days depending on your current serotonin levels.

[orangish]

How long does 5-htp take to work?

[orangish]

Is increased insomnia a sideeffect of 5-htp? I ask because I took it a couple months ago, and am already an insomniac, but didn't notice much difference. I only had enough for a couple days, so I couldn't wait out to see an effect...Is it worth giving it another shot? How long should I use it until I conclude if it works or not? Does anyone know an approx. figure for when full effects should be noticed?

[FunkOdyssey]

I can't help but worry about the dangers of high levels of serotonin outside the brain. There is some real concern that you could cause damage to your heart valves -- make sure you do some research beforehand. Its the kind of thing where I personally felt comfortable with the risk, but I advised my mother against it. Tryptophan is a safer alternative.

[kevink]

Theanine is rumoured on this board to give a calming effect during the day, - start with 200-400mg with food.

Tryptophan is a safer alternative.

This and Theanine (200-400mg) are my personal choices. I don't use it for any "problem", I just like taking the edge off in certain situations and the ability to fall asleep on schedule when an early morning is required.

Both are amino acids that would be consumed with certain foods anyway, so in my non-professional opinion (maybe I need to add a disclaimer sig) they have a pretty good safety profile. Theanine is approved for everything except babies in Japan and is in children's candy and drinks. It's supposed to enhance learning ability (but I don't feel like digging as to WHY they say that). I know for a fact that is does induce a calming effect...at least in me it does.

I find Tryptophan at the 500mg level to be quite enough to ensure an on schedule bed time. For maximum efficiency, I believe there are B vitamins that should be present as well. (again, don't feel like digging up the details).

[FunkOdyssey]

I strongly recommend theanine as well. I find it enables me to fall asleep more easily, stay sound asleep until morning, and wake up more refreshed. Taken during the day time, it puts you into a pleasant, relaxed state. On Sundays, when I work at my part-time job as an automotive Service Advisor dealing with the obnoxious public, I load up on theanine and it does an excellent job shielding me from the inherent stress of that position.

Most people think theanine = gaba, but theanine actually boosts dopamine levels as well, so that makes it surprisingly relevant to this thread. Kudos to KenJ and Kevin for suggesting it. Its been demonstrated to increase learning ability in addition to the effects on sleep and mood. I have my girlfriend take a chewable theanine tablet before classes, as she tends to be a little hyperactive and easily distracted. Seems to improve her ability to calmly focus and follow along in class.

Theanine is so non-toxic, I am comfortable with no disclaimer to this raving endorsement

[kenj]

I can't help but worry about the dangers of high levels of serotonin outside the brain. There is some real concern that you could cause damage to your heart valves -- make sure you do some research beforehand.

I've looked, - and I've looked again, - and I just can't find ONE study to prove that 5-HTP would be a concern, - however it should not be combined with anti-depressants which may interfere with the bodys natural regulatory pathways for the metabolism and degradation of serotonin. The "heart valve cases" as I understand it happened from taking the Redux weight loss drug and it has nothing to do with supplementing with 5-HTP alone. If anyone can show a study, please share.

Tryptophan is a safer alternative.

IMO no. I wrote in another post:

5-HTP is far superior to L-Tryptophan in raising serotonin levels, being a step closer to serotonin than L-Tryptophan is.
A much higher percentage of a given dose of 5-HTP is delivered to the bloodstream for easy access to the brain compared to a dose of L-Tryptophan. 1

Tryptophan may increase kynurenine levels when the enzyme tryptophan oxygenase acts on the tryptophan molecule (also depending on stress levels in the body) and thus less tryptophan may be available for 5-HTP->serotonin production, - 5-HTP is not used to make proteins in the body, tryptophan is, so it just makes the perfect (?) supplement for safely and effectively increasing serotonin levels. It even has antioxidant/melatonin/dopamine/norepinephrine activities, so there is not need for me to supplement with melatonin when using 5-HTP.

1. I. E. Magnussen and F. Nielsen-Kudsk, "Bioavailability and related pharmacokinetics in man of orally administered L-5-hydroxytryptophan in a steady state," Acta Pharmacologica et toxicologica 46 (1980); I Magnussen et al., "Plasma accumulation and metabolism of orally administered singledose L-5-hydroxytryptophan in man," Acta Pharmacologica et toxicologica 49 (1981); R. Brown, "Tryptophan metabolism in humans," in O. Hayaishi, Y. Ishimura and R. Kido, eds., Biochemical and Medical aspects of Tryptophan Metabolism (Amsterdam: Elsevier/North Holland Press, 1980)

Also, in many clinical studies tryptophan is not as effective in treating insomnia 1 with 5-HTP being far superior 2.

5-HTP will make you sleep deeper, improving the sleep quality (REM sleep and the deep sleep stages 3 and 4) more than tryptophan.
ctually I've never tried tryptophan, I was just so pleasantly surprised the first time I tried 5-HTP and loved the rejuvenating night following so I stuck with it.

1. C. L. Spinweber et al., "L-tryptophan administered to chronic sleep-onset insomniacs: late-appearing reduction of sleep latency," Psychopharmacology 90, (1986); D. Helmert-Schneider, "Interval therapy with L-tryptophan in severe chronic insomniacs: A predictive laboratory study," International pharmacopsychiatry 16 (1981); K. Demisch et al., "Treatment of severe chronic insomnia with L-tryptophan: Results of a double-blind cross-over study," Pharmacopsychiatry 20 (1987); J. G. Lindsley, E. L. Hartmann, W. Mitchell: Selectivity in response to L-tryptophan among insomniac subjects: a preliminary report," Sleep 6 (1983).

2. C. Guilleminault, H. P. Cathala, and P. Castaigne, "Effects of 5-HTP on sleep of a patient with brain stem lesion," Electroencephalography and clinical neurophysiology 34 (1973); A. Autret et al., "Human sleep and 5-HTP. Effects of repeated high doses and of association with benserazide," Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology 41 (1976); A. Soulairac and H. Lambinet," Effects of 5-hydroxytryptophan, a serotonin precursor, on sleep disorders," Annales Medico-Psychologiques 1 (1977); A. Soulairac and H. Lambinet, "Clinical studies of the effect of the serotonin precursor, L-5-hydroxytryptophan, on sleep disorders," Schweizerische Rundschau für Medizin Praxis 77 (1988).

[kevink]

Not saying there's anything wrong with 5-HTP. But as you know - there is a theory or two that it might cause hard to detect problems with long term use. 5-HTP cannot be ingested from food sources, Tryptophan can. For that reason alone it seems like a safer bet to me. But again, there is no study proving the "5-HTP damage" theory, so it's just mentioned in passing.

I don't like the stance of UC Berkeley's newsletter on some things, but it pays to post the opposition sometimes. They make a bad batch of Tryp sound like there's something wrong with Tryp itself...sheesh.

http://www.berkeleyw...l/ds/ds5HTP.php

Reported side effects include nausea, vomiting, and difficulty breathing. High doses of 5-HTP can cause agitation, fast heart rate, a boost in blood pressure—and in rare cases, coma and even death. Combining it with an antidepressant, any other drug that affects serotonin levels (such naratriptan or sumatriptan, used to treat headaches), or “herbal antidepressants” such as St. John’s wort can also cause such side effects. People who have heart disease, peptic ulcers, kidney disease, or clotting disorders should definitely not take this supplement.

[kenj]

I find 5-HTP very natural (and safe) as it is extracted from the seed of the african plant: Griffonia Simplicifolia.

The reported side-effects are out of proportion and even false. In rare cases death? In no cases.

Edited by kenj, 08 March 2006 - 01:44 AM.

[opales]

I've looked, - and I've looked again, - and I just can't find ONE study to prove that 5-HTP would be a concern, - however it should not be combined with anti-depressants which may interfere with the bodys natural regulatory pathways for the metabolism and degradation of serotonin. The "heart valve cases" as I understand it happened from taking the Redux weight loss drug and it has nothing to do with supplementing with 5-HTP alone. If anyone can show a study, please share.

This comment by Michael Rae on today's CR list is extremely relevant, not only in the case of 5-htp but also when evaluating research for other substances (the last paragraph):

Additionally, while my confidence in its safety has slightly increased
over the years, the possibility that 5-HTP may induce right mitral valve
abnormalities:

http://groups.google...941?dmode=print
http://groups.google...36b?dmode=print

The lack of report of this in clinical trials is unsurprising, as like
most nutraceuticals the 5-HTP trials have been small and of brieff
duration; the disorder was not detected in trials of phen/fen, despite a
much larger cohort size & longer duration, but were caught in followup.
Alas, supplement companies in the USA are STILL not required to actively
document and report reported side-effects, and there is no established
gov't reporting system for them; combine with the fact that physicans
are often unaware that their patients are taking supplements and that
consumers AND docs often just assume tht supps are harmless, PLUS the
smaller cohort using it in the population as in the trials, and a very
real effect could be happening invisibly.

[kenj]

Thanks Opales. I understand the concern is in research of 5-HTP (or other substances from the supplement biZZ) we are simply not given "the full story", - thus we may consume supplements based on a distorted picture of reality.