41 replies to this topic

[ergosum]

Firstly, some history. "LifeMirage" was promoted to this forum in a "feature interview" by Bruce Klein and given advisor status. This looked for all the world like LM's bona fides were recognised by ImmInst leadership and that Bruce was adding a personal endorsement. It was notable that LM's was the one profile that hid behind a non-de-plume and avatar on the leadership page, but this desire for anonymity didn't seem suspicious because it was easy to assume that he was known to other respected leaders. I'm not suggesting this was ever stated, just that it appeared that way. Some mirages can be very convincing.

Now, I want to be clear on a couple things. I have the utmost respect for ImmInst leadership's integrity and I don't condone the actions of whatever combination of Edward-Lee-Sherwyns-Steve-Unique has exploited the LM persona for their own purposes. (The exact details of this operation remain murky, but there is overwhelming evidence for the basic deception.) Having said that, I think it's time we put things in perspective. I don't expect the same standards from supplements merchants that I do from ImmInst leadership. Salespeople in all industries are as likely to be paragons of truthhood as politicians. Sure, this can be more worrisome with some products than others; some political lies are more serious than others too. It's the way of the world and we have to navigate through it as best we can.

In the scheme of things the crimes by those behind the LM ruse have been blown out of proportion. In all of LM's posts to this forum, there were only a handful of references that directly promoted Unique Nutrition or Sherwyns. In many posts, LM did acknowledge working as a consultant for various nootropics manufacturers. Not the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but at least there were declarations of affiliations. There were only a handful of references that suggested LM was an MD, and I don't believe LM ever claimed outright to being a practising doctor. Certainly there were exaggerations, but the catalogue of LifeMirage postings was hardly as egregious as the current vitriol would have us believe.

Leadership's (honest) mistake in appointing LM as an advisor, and seemingly stamping their imprimatur on LM's credentials, provided the platform for LM to attain guru status on this forum. I doubt LM would ever have dominated proceedings to such a degree without this leverage. Leadership do deserve respect for their diligence in pursuing the matter, giving LM plenty of time for self-defence before going public with the issue, and then immediately stripping LM of advisor status when the truth began to unfold. (LM's subsequent suspension/ban is a separate issue, and seemingly warranted due to LM's postings and behaviour after the intial action.)

But there are a number of reasons for believing that LM's general advice -- while obviously tainted by ulterior motives -- wasn't as irresponsible as it might have been. For instance, given that the purpose seems to have been to promote nootropics sales, it's interesting that LM always advocated keeping things simple. LM stuck to the mantra of introducing new substances to a regimen very slowly, and never really encouraged people to aspire to a complex regimen, despite the one presented as LM's own. If LM is indeed a combination of Edward-Lee-Sherwyns-Steve-Unique, then we are dealing with people who are indeed very experienced with nootropics, albeit hardly objective or bolstered with any serious neuro-science clout. Basically, it would have been nice to have had their advice in the right context, and if LM had never been appointed an advisor then LM's posts could have been viewed in terms of having industry affiliations and everyone could have taken from it what they would.

I think all the frothing at the mouth in the desire to bring down Steve and Unique Nutrition shows a lack of perspective. I bought my first ever nootropics from Unique a couple of months ago, and I'm very happy with the service and prices. Although I read a lot of LM's posts, I would never have based my decision to experiment with nootropics on them alone. LM was obviously a nootropics advocate, and any sensible person should always seek a range of opinions. The internet is a mine of misinformation and partisan information in just about every field. The one thing I did rely on LM for was the recommendation of Unique (among others) in terms of product purity. This wasn't a matter of opinion regarding the efficacy and safety of nootropics, it was a simple fact that only requried trustworthiness (which I granted LM on account of being part of ImmInst leadership). Whatever their marketing misdemeanours, I'll be happy to purchase from Unique again if I can find some third party assurance of quality -- over to you on that one Steve!

Some members of leadership have rapidly become obsessed with pursuing the LM issue across the internet. Now, while that's all very noble, wouldn't it be a good idea to get one's own house in order before embarking upon a crusade? Leadership hasn't even posted the promised definitive statement on the whole issue yet. I trust that when it does emerge, it will include an acknowledgement of leadership's error in appointing LM as an advisor. I appreciate that the whole thing got out of hand because most of leadership don't take much interest in the noot's forum. It's understandable how it happened, but the mistake should still be acknowledged and bitterness at being duped should not distract from the focus of making this forum a better place. Seeking out a new advisor with a genuine neuro-science background would be a great start. If the nootropics advocates are encouraged to keep posting and we can generate some commentary on their opinions from a knowledgable scientific perspective then we'll really have a forum that can help people make informed decisions. Those who are concerned about misinforamtion being peddled elsewhere can then simply invite people over to ImmInst for the most balanced and informed discussions on the internet.

Good health to all,
Ergosum

[Shepard]

Great post.

Another thing that I think people are forgetting is that before all of this started, the board owed more than one member to LifeMirage. When I first started looking into nootropics, you couldn't go to any nootropic board on the internet without reading about LifeMirage and being directed to ImmInst. When I finally came over, I loved the board and supported the ideas of the Institute. I joined, and my personal life extension program has improved dramatically, along with informing me about things that I never dreamed would come to pass in my lifetime. So, if nothing else, the Institute can thank LifeMirage for my membership dues for this past year. I'm sure I would have found the site eventually, but I'm glad I came over when I did.

[DJS]

the Institute can thank LifeMirage

And now, a personal statement from DonSpanton.

I just wanted to thank you Lie Mirage. Really, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for everything. [wis]

[Shepard]

Why am I confused, gullible, or misinformed? I'm not defending him in any way. I'm not even defending nootropics. Some people are so pissed about this, that they refuse to acknowledge that LifeMirage, at any point during his time here, was a benefit to the site. I don't care how mad you are that your star player fooled all of us, he did bring traffic to this site...some of it bad, some of it good.

[Shepard]

And now, a personal statement from DonSpanton.

I just wanted to thank you Lie Mirage.  Really, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for everything.  [wis]

I love it how we can pick little pieces out of posts and just run with them, don't you? Acting like a child is fun.

[DJS]

No Shep, it is not childish. Its indicative of the fact that I am absolutely flabbergasted by the dismissive attitude members of the nootropics community have towards outright fraud. Well, he lied and misrepresented himself, and lied some more, and committed ID fraud, and made ad hominem attacks against someone's dead mother, and on and on. But that's all okay, because he was boosting interest in nootropics. Because he increased traffic to the site. Because he gave good advice sometimes.

The logic floors me.

[Shepard]

That's my point. He lied, sent fake documents, attacked more than one member of the board, and there is serious question as to his mental state. That shouldn't blind everyone to the fact that he did make some contributions. I'm just trying to stop some members that are portraying LifeMirage as being 100% evil ever since he joined the Institute.

[DJS]

Okay, but I still don't understand what your motivation is for wanting to make this point.

[uniquenutrition]

Some basic reasoning perhaps Don?

[DJS]

Allow me to give you a hypothetical to shed some light on why I can't understand your perspective.

A big time mobster gives his 10% tithing to his church every year. He also volunteers at a local boys and girls club coaching under priviledged kids in baseball.

Then the mobster is arrested and brought up on numerous counts of murder, extortion, and rackateering.

At his trial, all of the evidence is brought forward and it is obvious that the mobster is guilty as sin. Towards the end of the trial members of the community step forward to vouch for his character. One after the other they get up and swear on a bible that this mobster has a heart of gold. "He's done so much good for our community. You really must remember that."

Well sure, I guess you can say that he did some good for the community. But it doesn't change the fact that he is a mobster, guilty of multiple egregious crimes.

Inotherwords, guilty is guilty Shep. Capice?

[DJS]

Some basic reasoning perhaps Don?

Steve, intellectually I s*** people like you out in my morning stool.

[Shepard]

Yes, the evidence drastically seems to favor the 'guilty' verdict. His past actions shouldn't negate any punishment coming his way. However, I hope people remember that there was a reason everyone had faith in him, otherwise we're all complete morons.

[DJS]

However, I hope people remember that there was a reason everyone had faith in him, otherwise we're all complete morons.

I'll be a bit nitpicky here by saying that, rather than having 'faith' in Life Mirage, nootropics enthusiasts here at ImmInst had 'confidence' in his statements. Part of this confidence was derived from his position of authority here on our site. And yes, part of this confidence was the result his knowledge of nootropics. However, there is an important point you are leaving out. When using an authority as a source of evidence, one must always scrutinize said authority. As such, issues like *motive* become critical.

If an individual (individuals?) such as Life Mirage has an agenda in promoting the interest (and hence sales) in nootropics, then his objectivity comes into question. This was a major issue during his approval process within leadership. Two directors have already come out and said that, had they known his commercial affiliations, they would never have approved his nomination. In effect, his ratification as an advisor took place under false pretenses.

More than likely, Life Mirage offered both good and bad advice while he was an advisor, just as I could probably pull some sources from pub med and bs a few good points before the peanut gallery. But this fact is irrelevant. He may have had the confidence of ImmInst members in the past, but once his objectivity is tainted they should view him as nothing other than a viral marketing agent.

[ergosum]

Don and Prometheus could you please take care to attribute quotes. Otherwise it might be assumed they came from my original post to this thread (which hasn't been the case thus far). Thanks.

[Shepard]

I'll be a bit nitpicky here by saying that, rather than having 'faith' in Life Mirage, nootropics enthusiasts here at ImmInst had 'confidence' in his statements.  Part of this confidence was derived from his position of authority here on our site.  And yes, part of this confidence was the result his knowledge of nootropics.  However, there is an important point you are leaving out.  When using an authority as a source of evidence, one must always scrutinize said authority.  As such, issues like *motive* become critical.

I'll agree with all that. To answer your question regarding why I made the point, I can only say: "As long as there is a minority, I want to be in it." (not my words, although I probably didn't quote it exactly). That, and I'm running on about 20 hours of sleep for this entire week.

[REGIMEN]

DonSpanton

Okay, but I still don't understand what your motivation is for wanting to make this point.

...as a remembrance, a confession, or perhaps as a shit into the collective 50-gallon Hat Of Pride that Imminst leadership wears...or a long deep piss into the collective Imminst punchbowl to lend, from his drunkeness of it, a spiking of humanity???

Or, perhaps... it's merely an unmotivated opinion.

Really...the cuntish bullying attitude displayed here towards Shepard for stating an obvious remnant of history that happens to allude to a better side of LifeMirage is evident of your (DSp, Prm) need to head over to the nootropics forum to research that chill pill you should take to alleviate your job-related stress. We know, it's a touchy subject, but you can put the cattle prod and plexiglass shield down after the confusion of the riot; there's respect for leadership in dealing with a complex and threatening event such as the one with LM, and there will continue to be respect if you treat fellow Imminst members still here with an attitude bleached of the disbelief and tension incited by another party.

Really guys...you've got Shepard backed into a corner wetting his pants using his recent sleep deprivation as an apologetic excuse for having expressed a perfectly acceptable, if not cherished, opinion.


[And no, I will not remove "cuntish", as it was the exact word that sprung to mind to describe my exasperation as I read through the sequence of replies.]

Edited by liplex, 11 March 2006 - 09:59 AM.

[REGIMEN]

I was just thinking about the mafia comparison: In holding to symbolic cohesion, it seems Shepard is one of the beneficiaries of this mob boss' good deeds...almost like he was some middleclass kid who got to go to a state university instead of a community college due to the 'golden heart' that Don Vita Miraggio dispersed in the neighborhood. I guess, more like, he got to college sooner without having to save up his tips from working at the local deli and pizza place for a number of years before having enough afford it on his own....err...currency being equivalent to LM internet presence. I think that's solid enough.
Enough stories for this week...

[Shepard]

And there is the real reason everyone is pissed at him....shepard arrived.

[REGIMEN]

When parents unfortunate to have borne a time-consuming, needy, retarded child, they realize they can't put them back in for a retry thus having their lives filled with the child's presence. I have a feeling that no matter how much they try to cover up their resentment for such a child, it comes out sooner or later. But when this retarded child begins to lay golden eggs on the hour, they change their tune. [thumb] (point-n-wink!)

You arrived, I arrived, we arrived. Let's just hope our 'parents' spring for the nanobot upgrade surgery that gets us laying golden eggs or else we'll be tossed in clay pots by the Appian wayside.

[I thought a tragically skewed allegory with a hint of historicity and fantasy would just be tasty right about now.]

[liorrh]

I wonder why no one has replied to The first post in the thread which was excelent.

[DJS]

First, I am not attacking Shepard, Liplex. I am attacking his position. So please don't try to paint me as being the "big bad bully" when all I am doing is advocating a particular POV. Geesh. Cut me some slack my brassy pundit. [tung]

That, and I'm running on about 20 hours of sleep for this entire week.

Shepard, look at my time zone. Then look at my posting times. [:o] Maybe we should start the InsomniaInstitute, For Infinite Restlessness.

[REGIMEN]

slack cut.

oops! without my rope belt my burlapsack just flew away on the breeze! ,,,....''''

[Brainbox]

Let's take this issue one meta-level higher to try to remove the clutter of all the contradictory facts and gossip.

The current hypothesis (or already a bit more than just a hypothesis) is, as I'm aware of:

LifeMirage did concentrate knowledge about nootropics on this board by referring to abstracts of scientific publications of research. In doing so, he deliberately or not only listed positive issues. And he did it based on the fact that he has a medical degree, so that we trusted him in his selection and presentation. Some members of leadership found out that LifeMirage probably did not have this medical degree. In pursuing this suspicion it is found out that there is confusion regarding the real identity of LifeMirage. LifeMirage himself did not take sufficient action to clear up this confusion.

At first it was believed that LifeMirage, as a philanthropic nootropics enthusiast, crossed the line of ethics because of his enthusiasm alone. And that the smoke screen was in place to hide him from possible legal issues.

At this stage there still could be seen some positivism in the intention behind his actions.

However, some time later it is discovered that LifeMirage is affiliated to businesses that sell nootropics to the public. First it is thought that he is an employee at Sherwyn’s. In the stage we are now LifeMirage is linked to Unique Nutrition quite badly.

So, now, beside the legal issue there seems to be a commercial interest involved. If we link that commercial interest to the way LifeMirage did promote nootropics, the red line of ethics is crossed by millions of miles. (Or kilometres we use over here in Europe).

The smoke screen, that still is partly present, is used to try to cover up this commercial interest very vigorously by the individuals involved that still have access to the forum.

So, despite the fact that there can be found some positivism in the actions of LifeMirage, it is the (still not completely proven) commercial interests that were served by it that completely overrule this positivism. It could very well be seen as viral marketing. Free exposure to boost nootropic sales to naïve forum members and readers.

[Brainbox]

Prometheus, this type of behaviour has been seen in Europe as well. Governmental institutions have been attacked in a similar manner some time ago.

It is becoming clear to me why the supplement industry needs to become more regulated by governmental intervention, although I personally would hate that to happen.

It seems to be that a few unethical businessmen are corrupting the supplement market. And me, as a simple user of vitamins, can only watch that happening and consequently seeing my freedom diminished.

I’m feeling deprived of any power in this matter.

[Brainbox]

Yes, I agree. And that's what I'm trying.

But in the bigger picture, where worldwide, US and European governmental organisations are planning their very restrictive regulatory interventions, I'm just a small bleating sheep.

Edit: Sorry, bleating sheep? [lol]

[Mind]

Ergosum, in order to help in the process of dealing with this situation, you should take a look here (nootropes future) and make some suggestions.

Looking back on the situtation, I am not sure that LifeMirage's posts in the nootropic forums were all that great. They mostly were 1 or 2 sentences and/or a link to some positive studies on noos. He never really demonstrated a knowledge of physiology/neurology outside of "this doesn't work with that" or "this one needs to be taken with/without food". Even though he made a lot of posts, there was very little substance. The message was always take more, take more, take more. The only time he would reccomend a smaller dosage was when people reported bad side effects.

As to how he became advisor. I voted for him "out of ignorance". I didn't spend much time in the noos forum. I didn't research his qualifications. I just knew he was popular in the forums and "seemed" to know a lot about noos. The whole viral marketing campaign had worked like a charm. Call it the snowball affect. I was just one of the snowflakes. LifeMirage made only a few statements in the very beginning of his advisorship that alluded to the fact that he was a doctor (which he is not). This caused a couple members to go to other boards and claim Imminst had a noos guru and/or doctor (I do not blame them). It just kept building from there.

I also do not blame Bruce in the very very beginning for bringing LifeMirage on board. Bruce was trying to build a community and everyone interested in life extension was welcome. Because LM came into the picture very early, I am sure a lot of people thought that someone had met or seen him before.

What is amazing is that someone else is falling for this routine (so far). The exact same thing is happenning over at brainmeta as happenned at Imminst. Once LifeMirage started to get into trouble here, he went over to brainmeta with the Lee Crost M.D./doctor/expert persona. Because Shawn was under the impression he was a docotr/expert he very quickly made LifeMirage a global moderator for the site (without checking his history). If you read the thread over at brainmeta, you will find the same huge list of noos/supps called "LifeMirage's anti-aging nootropic regimen". You will find the same 1 sentence posts "why don't you try taking X" and "don't take X with food". You will find the exact same pubmed articles that were shown here. All positive articles of course. What is interesting is that LifeMirage came to brainmeta with the Lee Crost/M.D. doctor/expert bravada, then once he became global moderator he removed that info from his profile. It seems he has learned from his past mistake. If he kept claiming to be Lee Crost, eventually someone at brainmeta would ask him about that.

I am glad you are trying to put some perspective into this ergosum. My perspective is that we should try to wrap this up. The offenders will be banned for a short period of time. We are trying to decide what to do with the noos forum (this is the second time the noos forum has majorly disupted things). Also we should be more vigilant about fraud that occurs within the life extension community.