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Do you believe in God?


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62 replies to this topic

Poll: Do you believe in God? (47 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you believe in God?

  1. Yes (12 votes [27.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.91%

  2. No (24 votes [55.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.81%

  3. I don't know (7 votes [16.28%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.28%

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#61 Lazarus Long

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 07:20 AM

1. Logical arguments create nothing.


False. Logic when combined with the *will* creates a way. It is only true in a strictly limited sense to claim that logic alone creates nothing. Seductive reasoning for example is the most basic logic and underpins all evolutionary psychology for the creative argument.

"Mate with me and perpetuate our genes together."

(Seductive reasoning)
An argument designed to create conviction (belief) not necessary to logically prove (to know). 

Persuasion
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Persuasion


The result is the cause; seduction and in the most sensual aspect procreative activity, the perpetuation of life (at least the very species specific *perception* of it).

2. A concept isn't reified just because one writes down a string of symbols on a piece of paper or word processor.


Agreed but how is this relevant?

3. Validity isn't soundness.


This is dependent on whether yo define validity in a subjective or objective manner. Soundness only reflects the logic of augment predicated on premises that are assumed *valid*.

4. "Consciousness is experience" is a useless tautology.


Perhaps but then why is the claim you make subject to a Bayesian falacy?

Consciousness may be experienced but not all that is experienced is conscious as the extensive and substantive analysis of precognitive stimuli demonstrates. You do possess a subconscious correct?

Are you fully cognizant of it at all times?

5. An ideal scientific description of consciousness doesn't need to demonstrate consciousness with its statements, just with applications of them.


Perception is sensual, not all experience is conscious again. The perception of spirit is not predicated on only a logical (or otherwise) understanding. This is the describing color to the blind argument. Does color have an objective reality?

Of course but does it also have a distinctly subjective reality?

Again the answer is yes and the problem is in distinguishing the two and their interrelatedness.

It is only important to validate perception if you possess the time and wherewithal to think about it. Most of the time it is about survival. You have attempted the path I charted. Perhaps I did not imply consciousness as much as conscience(ness).

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Conscience

I did attempt to address the idea of self and locate where it resides and upon that which it depends for existence. I only offer that it exists in a material sense within our mind, that is maintained by the brain, which is in turn maintained by the body. This can be demonstrated by a variety of empirical means objectively corroborated.

Now please attempt such a causal relationship and structured definition for a term like the soul?

#62

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 07:57 AM

Voted Yes.. Along the lines of Kevin's "nebulous concept" which I found an eminently sensible description of something we do not have the tools, at this time, to deal with.

#63 Kalepha

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 08:35 AM

1. Seductive reasoning isn't always logical.
2. We would need to digress severely just to argue over the most useful logic systems.
3. There is no such thing as a "valid" premise; they are: true, false, or [probabilistically] true.
4. Experience, perception, sensing, consciousness, etc., are subjects I'm consigning to mathematics/science/technology.
5. In the Ontological Arguments, "God" can easily be replaced with "Insolently High Abstraction", maintain their validity, and more likely be sound!
6. I have a lot less patience for obscurity of expression than expression of obscurity. [tung]

Seriously, I don't know where you're going, Laz. I shouldn't have intruded. My foci are verifiable phenomena, pancritical abstractions for organizing them, and applications for their optimization. What I don't know, I'll try to know, and I won't need to use "God" or "Insolently High Abstraction". What I can't know, can't be something more than useless to me, and I won't need to use "God" or "Insolently High Abstraction".

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