11 replies to this topic

[acaveyogi]

Ok lets say that you are a knowledgeable entity and that you want to create a system that is dynamic and self maintaining. How would you do this? The question boils down to: Is life an accident or is it not? If it is an accident then it should follow the rules of pure evolutionary science. The problem is that it doesn't. Granted evolution is going on, but not in a pure sense.

If you were going to create a system that is dynamic and self maintaining wouldn't evolutionary stuff be an important part of your self maintaining system? Sure it would. So what next? You have limited resources (Light and space). How would YOU create a dynamic and self maintaining system with energy and space limitations.

My suggestion is, if you truly want to understand aging then create a living, dynamic, self maintaining system that has limited energy and space resources. Understanding that there is only room for the best of the best, and that best of the best has to be reproducing and not bored.

We have the perfect system, we are just not happy being a part of it. Love, john

[ocsrazor]

(XX)Mostly Off Topic Discussion of Evolution, Systems Biology, and Random Philosophical Silliness

Hi John,

Very few modern scientists consider life to be an accident, a self-organizing system, yes, an accident, not hardly. You seem to be implying though that there is a design principle in biology. There is no biological system which appears to have been designed, there are too many optimization problems that biological systems do not solve well. Humans are already tremendously better than biological systems at solving these types of problems.

There is no such thing as "pure evolutionary science". Fields of knowledge in scientific thought are themselves constantly evolving to better fit current data. Current evolutionary models are the best possible picture we can create based on the information we currently posess.

Aging most likely arose as a side effect of one particular solution to the need to increase genetic variability in times of environmental stress (that solution is sex) But this is not the only solution, there are animals which do not have sex and which do not age.

There is not just room for the best of best. Constantly shifting environments produce multiple possible design solutions for any environmental niche. Slight shifts in environmetal conditions will cause the loser one day to be a winner the next. Evolution is not a straight line process that always produces the best possible organism for any given environment.

Bored is a anthropomorphic term, it only applies to humans, not animals, and what does being bored have to do with aging anyway? Animals reproduce because it is hardwired into their entire system.

Perfect in terms of what? Perfection is an abstract concept like infinity, it can't be defined, it is a line which cannot be reached.

In general John, your statements are far too simplistic to give an accurate picture of aging or evolution.

Best,
Ocsrazor

[Mind]

Sure it would. So what next? You have limited resources (Light and space). How would YOU create a dynamic and self maintaining system with energy and space limitations.

So far there is no limit of resources available to life on this planet. We inhabit a very tiny spec of the universe. Our light sphere is just a small portion of what is out there (we suspect). We have not yet proven that the universe is even finite (if it is even possible).

Our limitations are only a side-effect of our level of intelligence.

[acaveyogi]

Thanks OC, I am a newbe and I understand that without order message boards do become chaotic. "Random Philosophical Silliness" that was cute. Lazarus I can't speak your language anymore. Sheesh! It has been a long time since I took organic chemistry, statistics, Zoo phys, anatomy, enviornmental biology. I have spent so much time trying to explain things to uneducated people that I have forgotten how to speak educated english.

Aging is a phenomenom found in all animals with a higher nervous system. Sex is a phenomenom found in all animals with a higher nervous system. Death is a phenomenom found in all animals with a higher nervous system. And the tendency to over populate is a phenomenom found in all animals with a higher nervous system. I thought all this was a given. Opps.

What you are saying is, if we can understand how an amoeba lives forever then we will know how we can live forever. You could probably very easily genitically enginer an amoeba whos job it is to go to the pituitary gland and the thymus gland and stimulate them. That should at least slow aging down. You could call them "nano buddies". Just about anybody would give you a grant for that.

What I was trying to say was that disease and aging are natures way of preventing animals with higher nervous systems from over populating themselves. And that the mechanism for this way is built into each and every animals autonomic nervous system, who has a higher nervous system, and that this mechanism is triggered by an emotional state of being.

As long as you guys continue to study the effects of aging and disease on the body instead of the cause, you are just going to create expensive stop gap measures that most of us are not going to be able to afford. Love, john

[kevin]

Hi John,

From what I understand, overpopulation has very little to do with death. In the early years of our evolution, malnutrition, predators and natural disasters kept our population down so that there would be no 'evolutionary pressure' for death by natural causes such as aging... a kind of planned obsolescence. Very few humans lived to die from old age at that point.

Instead, an advanced brain which exchanged instinct for reasoning ability, allowed early humans to adapt to their environment, but also increased the length of time that children were reliant on their parents.

Thus we arrive at an optimimum reproductive age of approx 12-17 years old for the human species which has stood up through our evolution to present day.

After we hit puberty and are given a chance to reproduce, bodies begin to deteriorate simply as a result of running down. Eventually our repair mechanisms, being damaged themselves, are unable to keep up with the ongoing cellular damage and we die 'of natural causes'. Nature is rather businesslike about ensuring that our DNA gets passed on, with little regard for what happens to the body after it has reached sexual maturity.

Perhaps this explains why the 'survival' mode induced by caloric restriction also down regulates reproductive capability.

JMO.. (Just my opinion..)

Kevin

[ocsrazor]

Hi John,

Aging is found in all animals with a nervous system, alhough there are multiple types of aging in different species. Sex is not found in all vertebrates, there are a few species who produce clones of themselves. Death is universal, nothing is indestructible, although there are some species that are essentially immortal under good environmental conditions. It is interesting to note that the entire system of life is proof of immortality, the sytem has been alive for 4 billion years. The tendency to use all available environmental resources is found in all dissipative self-organizing systems, not just vertebrates or even life.

I am not saying if we understand aging in an amoeba will we live forever. I didn't follow your logic in that paragraph at all.

Infectious disease is simply another competing life form in the environmental space. Genetic diseases occur through random chance and are usually eliminated by the evolutionary process over time. The global system of "nature" lets organisms compete against each other in environments, it is a scarce resource problem. There is no design of disease or aging by a natural overseer, these are consequences of lower lever effects. Aging is simply a falling apart of the system designed for reproduction and sex is one possible solution for solving the scarce resource problem of energy and metabolism faced by higher level organisms.

Researchers in aging have been directly studying the causes of aging, not the effects, for some time now and are making signifcant progress - the lifespan of several animals including vertebrates have been significantly extended and many of the core mechanisms have already been worked out.

Emotions have very little to do with the fundamental causes of aging which is essentially a metabolic (not a nervous system) problem.

Please read the entire Aging Theories thread, as many of these issues have already been covered in great detail.

Best,
Ocsrazor

[Cyto]

Aging most likely arose as a side effect of one particular solution to the need to increase genetic variability in times of environmental stress (that solution is sex)

Agree.

Understanding that there is only room for the best of the best, and that best of the best has to be reproducing

Most of life is the weak living with eachother.

[acaveyogi]

Lazarus how do I explain this? Guys I was a devout student of "your science" most of my life. And I do understand what it is you are saying both rationally and educationally. Biology has been my passion since I was six years old. I have an IQ of 130, I use to read 1500 wpm with 85% retention and I have a mechanical aptitude in the 98 percentile.

I am not saying that I am smarter than you guys. I am not even saying that I am as smart as you guys. I want that understood. What I am saying is that I have the capaticy to understand what you are saying and the educational background to understand what you are saying.

I studied yogic science the hard way (no living master physically present). I studied yogic science as a curiosity, the India folk were making claims about stuff that could not possibly be real. And they were making money off the american public by teaching this crap.

It turns out that the claims were right (legend stuff) the problem is that the people who are teaching yoga paths for money haven't a clue about yogic science. It also turned out that it didn't matter because money was the point and was being made.

So what is my point? I can understand what you are saying to me because I have a back ground in your science but you can not understand me because you do not have a back ground in my science. The way things are turning out here is that I am wasting your time and this is not right.

Thank you for being as gentle with me as you have been, it shows depth of character on your part. So let's face it, the constructive thing for me to do is to get out of your hair and go do something else, because there is no way that I am going to be able to explain true yogic science to you. True yogic science starts with this premise: "The mind is a thought generator and creation is a manifestation of thought (the body is just a thought activated chunk of creation)". And as you guys know, this has to be totally insane.

May you all be happy. Love, john

[kevin]

John,

I think ultimately that hard science will be able to explain all observable phenomena within the known universe but that being said, I also think we are a long way from that point.

Alternate methods of attempting to explain these phenomena are extremely valuable and sometimes critical in moving forward. Hard sciences' explanations as to the nature of reality, and it's relationship to the mind are pretty embryonic and might benefit from the insights given by 'yogic science'.

From what I understand of wave-particle duality, we can all be described by wave equations while at the same time, our smallest subatomic particles are increasingly being thought to be divisible into even smaller entities which are themselves wave-particles. Is it possible that there is/are no ultimate particle(s) that we can be reduced to? Maybe all we are left with are various wave representations of harmonic vibrations left over from the Big Bang. At this level of discovery, there is obviously much to be learned.

I myself don't rule out the possiblity that we are all wave patterns; energy representations arising from the same source, with 'mind' in some form, existing without body, acting as the thought and 'reality' generator that serves as the basic premise of 'yogic science'. What mind would be in this case I think would be something totally different than the self-awareness we experience.

Regardless, thought provoking conjecture forms the basis of any meaningful discussion and discovery. It may be that the approaches of hard and yogic science complement each other and that, as might be expected, developing a 'common language' is probably the most significant roadblock in communication between the two.

We're all searching.

Kevin

Edited by kperrott, 13 March 2003 - 06:53 PM.

[acaveyogi]

Thanks Kevin and I agree with what you are saying. My experience with God is that this whatever it is is totally beyond comprehension and beyond words. All that can be said is if you love this whatever it is, it will love you. In order for a person to truly become an advanced yogic science student they have to come to the understanding that there is a part of them that is totally beyond comprehension and beyond words also.

And I agree with you that anything that the mind can do, hard science can also do. I am not here to say that the mind is the way you have to go. At least as far as manifestation in creation there is no reason why hard science can't do what the mind can do. And trying to train the entire population of mankind in advanced yogic science is rediculous.

Example in point: I have a simple gadget that acts as a pacemaker for the pituitary and thymus glands (the immune system). This gadget is based on an ancient science. What I don't know is what frequency this gadget gives off. Kevin I am never going to be able to find out what frequency this thing generates because is stimulates a part of the autonomic nervous system with a minute RF signal and hard science says this is not possible.

Do you guys really want to understand the DNA computer, nano technology that works, and the immune system. I have the Key and I can show you how to use it. But this will never happen because you guys are going to have to discover this accidently all by yourselves before you will believe it. And based on the direction you are taking at this point in time, you are never going to discover it.

Twenty-third century science is already here, the problem is that there is no way I can get anybody to look at it. I know what I have, I have studied both your science and yogic science. And I can do it the hard science way or the mind way, either one. Somewhere on this internet is someone who is interested in this technology, all I have to do is find them. And I know what you guys are going to say, "good luck John!" So thank you! Love, john

[Lazarus Long]

Thank you for being as gentle with me as you have been, it shows depth of character on your part. So let's face it, the constructive thing for me to do is to get out of your hair and go do something else, because there is no way that I am going to be able to explain true yogic science to you. True yogic science starts with this premise: "The mind is a thought generator and creation is a manifestation of thought (the body is just a thought activated chunk of creation)". And as you guys know, this has to be totally insane.

While I will say you are kind for saying we are gentle I really want toaddress the fallacy of one aspect of your statement, that we cannot understand your descriptive language. First of all you have danced around making claims but taken no effort to in fact define the Way these things might work even from the perspective you bring to this discussion.

Second you have never tested this assumption by in fact expressing yourself openly instead of through inuendo and implication. You are writing to any reader so why do you assume that any one reader will read the same as anyone. Express yourself honestly, openly, and as comprehensively as you feel competant to and all those that care to understand what you have to share will make their individual effort to.

Language is a barrier but it is not insurmountable. The lexicon or register of the Yogic Science is not the same as that of Western Science but the principles that underlay Nature are teh same for us all, perspective changes how we access the knowledge not what is known.

While few may find interest in what you offer here I do think it is relevant to share this perspective and ask again that you please try. I only asked that ou didn't do so in the Thread on the Brain/mind distinction because I was intentiaonally focusing upon a more standardized scientific approach in that particular thread.

But we have more than enough room and people to accomodate your needs for expression in this respect. Please, again I say feel free to express yourself, and I would add that I would not expect anyone to be disrespectful regardless of their ability to understand, or agree with you.

[acaveyogi]

Ok I will take the chip of my shoulder and operate under the premise that there are interested others.

"After experiencing "union" or yoga with God or ultimate Reality in the spiritual plane, like a salt droll merging with the ocean, the Tamil Yoga Siddhas experienced a progressive transformation of their intellectual, mental, vital and untimately, physical bodies." From: "Babaji and the 18 Siddha Kriya Yoga Tradition", By Marshall Govindan, Kriya Yoga Publications,St.Etienne de Bolton, Quebec.

Ultimately the above is what we are discussing. What these Tamil Siddhas are said to have done was achieve "physical immortality" by blending that which is their spirit with that which is God's spirit. In yoga this is called "permanent samadhi with God". I was stepped into "permanent samadhi with God" Feb. last year and am experiencing the transformations that M. Govindan has written about.

What Mr. Govindan is not aware of it that these Siddhas also wore what I call (for lack of anyother term) "life energy harnesses". What is not known is that the string(s) of beads that they are shown wearing are wired in a certain way. And that they give off a frequency that stimulates the "life" centers of the body.

These "life energy harnesses" can be wired to stimulate other centers of the body as well. I know this because I have been researching and wearing these things for twelve years now (there are many different versions and these versions have been handed down in our folk lore and in the archeological artifacts that science has found and is finding).

So to of those of you that are interested I ask this question: "What do I do with this stuff?"

The yoga stuff takes a certain amount of time, dedication, and aptitude, and really needs to be taught one on one by an arrived master and they are rare.

The "life energy harness" stuff, in the wrong hands, could put the illegal drug people right out of business if it was wired for bliss.

Input? Love, john