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Vinpocetine research


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#1 zoolander

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 06:12 PM


here are a few recently released papers

Ideggyogy Sz. 2007 Jul 30;60(7-8):301-10.

    Investigation of the effect of vinpocetine on cerebral blood flow and cognitive functions]

    Valikovics A.

    Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén Megyei Kórház és Egyetemi Oktató Kórház, Neurológia-Toxikológia-Stroke Osztály, Miskolc.

    INTRODUCTION: Vinpocetine has been widely used in the treatment of ischaemic cerebrovascular diseases and dementias of vascular type. Chronic cerebral hypoperfusion plays an important role in the development of certain types of dementia. In consequence of complex mode of action vinpocetine plays a significant role in the improvement of cerebral hypoperfusion. The symptoms of mild cognitive impairment considered as "predementia" are similar to those of dementia, although milder. AIMS: The authors investigated the characteristics of the blood flow parameters of patients with ischemic stroke and mild cognitive impairment both in resting conditions or following chemical stimulus as well as they investigated the severity of mental deterioration in the two patient groups. In a pilot study the authors examined the influence of 12-week long oral vinpocetine therapy on the blood flow parameters and cognitive functions in the two patient groups. METHODS: The authors studied the blood flow velocity of a. cerebri media in resting conditions and after 30 sec of breath holding with transcranial Doppler before treatment and after a 12-week long oral vinpocetine treatment. At the same time psychometric tests (MMSE, ADAS-Cog) were used in order to examine cognitive functions, while the general condition of the patients were scored by Clinical Global Impression (CGI) scale. RESULTS: After a 12-week long oral vinpocetine treatment the increase of blood flow velocity in resting conditions compared to the baseline values was significant in the vascular group. The percent increase of mean velocity after the breath holding TCD test showed a significant increase compared to the baseline in both patient groups. The authors found a significant improvement of cognitive functions after a 12-week long oral vinpocetine therapy using psychometric tests. The improvement was identical in both groups. The general condition of patients improved significantly according to both the investigator's and the patients' opinion; patients with mild cognitive impairment judged the improvement higher. CONCLUSIONS: Vinpocetine improved the cerebrovascular reserve capacity in both patient groups and favourably influenced the cognitive status and general condition of patients with chronic hypoperfusion. The authors recommend the use of vinpocetine for the treatment of patients with mild cognitive impairment.

    PMID: 17713111 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


and another

Orv Hetil. 2007 Jul 22;148(29):1353-8.

    The role of vinpocetine in the treatment of cerebrovascular diseases based in human studies
    [Article in Hungarian]

    Bagoly E, Fehér G, Szapáry L.

    Pécsi Tudományegyetem, Altalános Orvostudományi Kar Neurológiai Klinika Pécs Rét u 2 7623.

    INTRODUCTION: It shows the importance of cerebrovascular diseases that they are the third main cause of death exceeded only by coronary artery diseases and cancer. Cerebral ischemia leads to irreversible brain damage, thereby it is important to rescue the hypoperfused areas. Patients without stroke but with chronic cerebral hypoperfusion can also benefit from the increasing of the cerebral blood flow. METHODS: The aim of this review was to summarize the indications and the potential effects of vinpocetine in acute and chronic cerebrovascular diseases based on clinical studies. RESULTS: There is no evidence that vinpocetine treatment is applicable in acute ischemic stroke, only few study with low patient number showed a slight but significant improvement in the patients conditions. In chronic cerebrovascular patients after single dose and long-term vinpocetine therapy, PET, TCD, SPECT and NIRS examinations showed increasing perfusion and elevated glucose and O 2 consumption of the examined areas, furthermore significant improvement of the rheologic factors was detected. A meta-analysis of international clinical studies showed a significant improvement in cognitive achievement in chronic stroke patients after oral therapy. CONCLUSION: The cited studies showed the potential multi-pharmacological effects of vinpocetine and its beneficial hemorheological potential. The drug also improves the blood flow and the metabolism of the affected brain areas. There is increasing evidence that vinpocetine improves the quality of life in chronic cerebrovascular patients.

    PMID: 17631470 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Unfortunately these papers were published in hugarian journals I do not have access to hence I cannot comment on dosage.

I can say this.....because I read it here

"Vinpocetine is available as an individual supplement and in combination products. Typical doses for supplement use are 5 to 10 milligrams daily with food. Some take up to 20 milligrams daily. Higher doses are not advised.........

Absorption of vinpocetine is significantly higher when given with food and can be up to about 60% of an ingested dose. On an empty stomach, absorption of an ingested dose can be as low as 7%. Peak plasma levels are obtained one to one and a half hours after ingestion. Extensive metabolism to the inactive apovincaminic acid occurs in the liver. Only small amounts of unmetabolized vinpocetine are excreted in the urine, the major route of excretion of apovincaminic acid. Most of a dose is excreted within 24 hours as this metabolite. The elimination half-life of vinpocetine following ingestion is one to two hours."

so taking 5 mg 3 x per day or with your 3 main meals should keep you topped up.

#2 brotherx

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 04:49 PM

Hi Zoolander,

thanks for the update!
Do you personal experiences with it?
I have read mixed results - so I was unsure until now whether to try it or not!

Cheers

Alex

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#3 scottl

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 05:05 PM

Hi Zoo,

I wonder why the upper limit? Right above what you posted it states:

OVERDOSAGE
There are no reports of vinpocetine overdosage.

Again this board is a very mixed bag and what might be appropriate for a 20 year old, 40 year old, 60 year old asymptomatic and 60 year old with mild memory problems may not be the same.

#4 Shepard

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 05:35 PM

I wonder why the upper limit?


If I remember correctly this was due to diminishing returns past 30-40mgs. I want to think a reduction in effectiveness was noted at some higher dosage, but I don't remember the specifics or the condition of the people in the study.

Although, I've never seen any reason to set a limit at 20mgs.

#5 krillin

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 05:48 PM

Hi Zoo,

I wonder why the upper limit?  Right above what you posted it states:

OVERDOSAGE
There are no reports of vinpocetine overdosage.

Again this board is a very mixed bag and what might be appropriate for a 20 year old, 40 year old, 60 year old asymptomatic and 60 year old with mild memory problems may not be the same.


It gave me tension headaches when I tried it years ago at 2 x 5 mg, probably from excessive cholinergic activity.

#6 Mind

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 05:56 PM

Like Shepard, I thought I read somewhere that 30 to 40mgs was the "optimal" dosage. The product I take reccommends 30mgs (10mg tablet taken 3 times daily with meals). It is the one nootrope that I take most often and it seems to work for mild cognitive enhancement....anecdotally speaking.

#7 brotherx

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 07:34 PM

@Mind, Shepard,

do you experience any side effects?
How can you describe the nootropic effects that you experience?

Cheers

Alex

#8 Shepard

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 08:16 PM

How can you describe the nootropic effects that you experience?


I've never noticed any side effects. Main effect for me would be a greater sense of awareness (visual acuity and hearing seem to be improved for a little while).

#9 brotherx

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 09:13 PM

Do you think it has an impact on learning (recall and retention)?


How can you describe the nootropic effects that you experience?


I've never noticed any side effects. Main effect for me would be a greater sense of awareness (visual acuity and hearing seem to be improved for a little while).



#10 Matt

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 09:21 PM

after taking vinpo I experienced dizziness and I felt really uneasy about 30-60minutes after taking... and this was only with 10mg!

#11 Mind

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 10:10 PM

Same as Shepard. One thing I noticed (heavy caution...anecdotal evidence) was my pitching (softball) was much more accurate when I took vinpo before the game (20mgs).

#12 revnik

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 10:14 PM

after taking vinpo I experienced dizziness and I felt really uneasy about 30-60minutes after taking... and this was only with 10mg!

10 mg is a high dosage to start out with. Try 5mg.

do you experience any side effects?
How can you describe the nootropic effects that you experience?

I've experienced stumach upset when I first started using it. Problem solves itself after few days...

Nootropic effects:
-higher brain metabolism
-decreases brainfog if any
-higher level of concentration
-somethimes possitive effects on my mood

Doesn't (directly) effect recall and retention in my experience.

#13 zoolander

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 10:33 PM

Scottl, if you read anything about an upper limit then that must have been from PDRHealth.

Personally I have used 20mg vinpocetine + 20mg Vincamine on a daily basis for 3 + months. No negative side effects. I can't really say if the vinpocetine/vincamine is effective because my stack is pretty large

#14 luv2increase

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 10:38 PM

I've taken upwards towards 40mg a day of vinpocetine all to no avail. I could never distinguish anything different from my original stack. Maybe there are responders and no-responders with vinpocetine??? It isn't worth the money IMHO.

#15 Shepard

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 10:43 PM

Maybe there are responders and no-responders with vinpocetine???


This would be a reasonable conclusion since most of vinpocetine's acute effects should come from increased cerebral circulation.

Although, I think a low dose of vinpocetine should be a nice bonus to pretty much anyone.

#16 Shepard

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 10:47 PM

Do you think it has an impact on learning (recall and retention)?


It's probably going to depend on the person and his/her lifestyle. It very well might for a lot of people, but I'd look for it to be more of a long-term thing for someone that has a LE-oriented lifestyle.

#17 zoolander

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 11:23 PM

Most studes with vinpoetine (and oter nootropic) use subjects with dementia or mild dementia who more than likely have cerebrovascular problems that contribute to a decrease in cerebral blood flow. This should not be the case in young healthy subjects as blood flow to the brain is a highly regulated process

#18 kenj

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 11:32 AM

I don't notice much from vinpo 20mg, - garlic from the kitchen however, gives me some of the aforementioned effects (taken with food!).
Still, I take vinpocetine.

#19 sentinel

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 11:57 AM

Zoo: Most studes with vinpoetine (and oter nootropic) use subjects with dementia or mild dementia who more than likely have cerebrovascular problems that contribute to a decrease in cerebral blood flow. This should not be the case in young healthy subjects as blood flow to the brain is a highly regulated process


I think this is the crux with nootropics if not most supplements. If you have a below normal level of something eg transfer of oxygen to brain/dopamine/seratonin etc then taking a noot that supposedly addresses it going to produce a more noticabe effect. If you're in the normal realm then the results are often subtle at best. Just because Deprynel helps people with parkinsons, it doesn't mean it will Joe Bloggs feel stellar, there's less to correct.

I get nothing off Alcar, Vin (5 thru to 45mg per day AOR), Deprynel, Resveratrol, Aswaghanda, Rhodiola etc that is profoundly noticable. I assume they are ticking away in the background but I often envy the "wow, what a difference" reviews of some members but maybe I should count myself lucky that I didn't need them that much in the first place.

Sentinel

#20 revnik

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 12:20 PM

I think this is the crux with nootropics if not most supplements. If you have a below normal level of something eg transfer of oxygen to brain/dopamine/seratonin etc then taking a noot that supposedly addresses it going to produce a more noticabe effect. If you're in the normal realm then the results are often subtle at best. Just because Deprynel helps people with parkinsons, it doesn't mean it will Joe Bloggs feel stellar, there's less to correct.

I get nothing off Alcar, Vin (5 thru to 45mg per day AOR), Deprynel, Resveratrol, Aswaghanda, Rhodiola etc that is profoundly noticable.


I agree mostly but it's hard to believe that you don't notice any effects from noots such as Deprenyl. Your natural dopamine-levels might be high but DEP surely pushes them to an even higher level, or am I totaly wrong on this? I believe DEP increases dopamine-levels even if they aren't out of balance (to low)...

#21 sentinel

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 12:48 PM

I Don't want to Off Topic this to Dep but in short I notice nothing at 1-3 mg, 4-5 start getting foggy. Liquid and Tablet. Next!

#22 revnik

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 01:04 PM

Yeah well vinpo is great but I guess when you do (enough) sports you won't be noticing any additional effects because of good blood-circulation due to good physical condition in general.

#23 sentinel

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 04:19 PM

Yes that's it. I'm too sporty [thumb]

#24 synaesthetic

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 04:21 PM

5mg Vinpo gave me a headache and ringing in the ears. I'll try it again without other supps.

#25 revnik

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 05:06 PM

Those are signs of overdosage, you might want to build up the dosage. Maybe start of with half a 5mg tab. It might as well be that you're oversentitive to the stuff, don't combine it with other vasodilators such as ginkgo which have simular effects.

Vinpo is very combinable with other noots in my experience.

#26 revnik

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 05:13 PM

Yes that's it. I'm too sporty  [thumb]


Stop going off topic, this topic isn't about you [tung] Nah we can all learn an important lesson here: sports are good for you ;)
Vinpo's just a cheap ripoff for the lazy ones among us.

#27 brotherx

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 09:12 PM

So you think it is the same with hydergine (no effects if doing a lot of sports)?
As I will start to put Hydergine to my regime - starting next week.

Cheers

Alex

Yeah well vinpo is great but I guess when you do (enough) sports you won't be noticing any additional effects because of good blood-circulation due to good physical condition in general.



#28 revnik

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 09:41 PM

Hydergine does lots more than soli increasing blood circulation, lots of research on this.
Personaly I wouldn't suggest it , hydergine is mutch harder on the stomach, many users experience nausea. It probably also has more interactians in combination with other noots and might be bit unpredictable in that sense.

Hydergine is a farmaceutical and in general more expensive, if you're just looking for the increased blood flow I would stick with the vinpo. If you do start of with hydergine start of slow. And the sports thing isn't an absolute criterium so to speak (Everything's Relative ;) )

#29 brotherx

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 12:24 AM

Hi Revnik

Price is not that much of a problem if effectivity and efficiency are alright.
I assume that I am not looking only for increased blood flow - it shouldn't be a problem as a do a lot of sports.

I am looking for and improvement in recall and retention + an increase in spoken verbal skills.
And to get rid of the brain fog I sometime get.
(My background:I work as a consultant - and doing a part time study at the same time)

I am just about to find my right stack and I consider Hydergine as a good try (for the rest of my stack). "Nootropi" posted the following sentence:
"It is very important they Hydergine come in FAS form; that way bioavailablity is maximized. FAS stands for "Facilitated Absorption System;" this form is clearly superior as it is time released."

So I've ordered Hydergine FAS as I have seen less mix results with it.

Cheers - and best regards from Germany

Alex

Hydergine does lots more than soli increasing blood circulation, lots of research on this.
Personaly I wouldn't suggest it , hydergine is mutch harder on the stomach, many users experience nausea. It probably also has more interactians in combination with other noots and might be bit unpredictable in that sense.

Hydergine is a farmaceutical and in general more expensive, if you're just looking for the increased blood flow I would stick with the vinpo. If you do start of with hydergine start of slow. And the sports thing isn't an absolute criterium so to speak (Everything's Relative ;) )



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#30 revnik

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 12:57 AM

Ok,
sounds great I know the FAS form, it should be less hard on the stomach than the usuall one but -if I may- the liquid form is even beter when it comes to absorption etc.
Big downside of hydergine FAS is that it only comes in 4.5mg dosages, which is a huge dosage to start of with. Feel free to experiment...

Other advantages of the liquid form include that you can dose it up to 0.25mg precisely, back here in Belgium it's free of prescript so if you live near the border...

Anywayz going off topic big time once again so I'll keep it at that, good luck!




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