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Ketogenic diets


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#1 edward

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 07:35 PM


First of all I appologize but this post will be rambling and long and disorganized and I know I am opening up a can of worms that has been opened a few times before but here goes....

This past week and a half or so I have been on vacation from work and school and have reading a few interesting books see below. I have also been on a ketogenic diet experiment. I have previously tried this but given up after a little more than a day because it was too "painful". This time I suffered through the carbohydrate withdrawl/switch to ketosis which took about 3 days (I conclude that I am a highly carb loaded exercise addict (who has been on a high carb low fat diet for at least 15 years) so to completely deplete my glycogen stores and convince my body that fat and protein are the fuel sources that are available takes a little longer than most people). Anyways, after the three days of virtual hell I feel amazing, more energy, no hunger, better mood, able to deal with multiple crises including my car breaking down in the middle of nowhere at 1 am driving back from the beach (a situation that previously would have driven me nuts).

My diet for the past week has consisted of high protein, high fat and very very few carbohydrates. Meats, nuts, eggs, protein powder, olive oil, coconut oil and lots of low carb vegetables, for convenience I blend these in with my protein shakes (not real tasty but it gets the job done for now as a temporary solution) but I have been also making mixed vegetable salads when I can. I haven't introduced berries back into my diet as my short term goal is to establish ketosis but I do intend to eat small amounts of lower carb fruits such as berries with protein and fat sources to minimize their blood sugar impact (havent worked out the specifics of this yet as again my short term goal is sustained ketosis to see how my body reacts). While on vacation, due to eating out I had to resort to the occasional cheeseburger without the bun (ala atkins) to keep up the ketosis, though ideally it seems to me that low fat meats combined with mono fats from nuts and olive oil or whole eggs work best from a health perspective as I don't have a supply of grass fed beef or other meats with high fat but a good fat profile. To me though it was important to keep up my ketogenic diet for the purposes of my experiment.

I really buy into the fact that evolutionarily our bodies are pretty much the same as they were 10,000 years ago before mass agriculture brought large amounts of carbs via grains into our diet. Thus humans are naturally geared towards hunter gatherer type diets. Meats, nuts, greens, berries etc. along with periods of fasting.

There have been various threads where people have commented on this usually from one of the two main nutritional camps, but I can't find a thread dedicated to those pursuing a Ketogenic, Evolutionary, what have you diet plan.

Note that I will continue this diet next week when I go back to work and school to see if it is viable for "real life" so depending on my experience I could change my tune but so far I feel amazing.

Books

The Brain Trust Program: Very cool book written by a Neurosurgeon who advocates that a very low carb diet, with energy supplied by ketones (as well as your bodies natural ability to convert proteins to glucose) is the healthiest diet for your brain... This was a big tipping point in my thinking as I had previously thought that a constant supply of dietary glucose was what would make my brain happy. This guy also talks at length about supplementation for the brain. I was skeptical about this book when I first heard of it because the guy now makes a fairly expensive product Lucidal which combines all of his supplement recommendations. I changed my tune due to the fact that he only mentions this product one time in his book and the fact that the guy is a successful Neurosurgeon and doesn't need the money so his motives for writing the book and creating the nutritional supplement are likely not to be entirely monetarily driven.
http://www.amazon.co...t/dp/0399533583

The Protein Power Lifeplan: Good book that practically plans out living a low carb lifestlye and the multiple benefits for various body systems.
http://www.amazon.co...l...8186&sr=1-3

Good Calories Bad Calories: Excellant account about how the low fat high carb diet is at the root of the "diseases of civilization" particularly the increasing rates of these since the low fat craze of the '80s and '90s http://www.amazon.co...a...8290&sr=1-1


A couple of interesting studies on ketogenic diets and depression and mood disorders (of particular personal interest)

http://www.sciencedi...e3a083100acc9ad
http://www.sciencedi...04f721310f3e95c

edit
Another interesting study of Ketogenic diets as protective of Neurons and on the promotion of Mitochondrial Functioning
http://www.biomedcen.../1471-2202/7/29

Edited by edward, 07 March 2008 - 08:03 PM.

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#2 edward

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 07:40 PM

So I would like to hear from anyone who has been on a ketogenic diet for any length of time or anyone else that has any information (backed up by references please) on the pros and cons of such a diet long term.

Note that I am not trying this to lose weight or anything like that (though if I was I think this would be an amazing way to do it as for one thing it seems very hard to eat a lot of calories on this diet) as my bodyfat is low and I am in great shape. My interest is purely for long term health, optimal brain functioning, energy and life extension.

Note also that it is much easier to go for periods of time without eating (while still maitaining a high energy level) on this diet. So I am theorizing that future IF or Calorie Restriction may also be easily programmed into such a diet.

Edited by edward, 07 March 2008 - 08:08 PM.


#3 edward

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 07:37 AM

very interesting ketogenic diet study

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Feb 13; : 17299079 (P,S,E,B,D)
A High Fat, Ketogenic Diet, Induces a Unique Metabolic State in Mice.
[My paper] Adam Richard Kennedy, Pavlos Pissios, Hasan H Otu, Bingzhong Xue, Kenji Asakura, Noburu Furukawa, Francis Edward Marino, Fen-Fen Liu, Barbara B Kahn, Towia A Libermann, Eleftheria Maratos-Flier
Medicine, BIDMC, Boston, Massachusetts, United States; Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts, United States.
Ketogenic diets have been used as an approach to weight loss based on the theoretical advantage of a low carbohydrate, high fat diet. To evaluate the physiologic and metabolic effects of such diets on weight we studied mice consuming a very low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet (KD). This diet had profound effects on energy balance and gene expression. C57BL/6 mice animals were fed one of four diets, KD, a commonly used obesogenic high fat high/sucrose diet (HF), 66% caloric restriction (CR) and control chow ©. KD ate the same calories as C and HF but weight dropped and stabilized at 85% initial weight, similar to CR. This was consistent with increased energy expenditure seen in animals fed KD vs C and CR. Microarray analysis of livers revealed a unique pattern of gene expression in KD, with increased expression of genes in fatty acid oxidation pathways and reduction in lipid synthesis pathways. Animals made obese on HF and transitioned to KD lost all excess body weight, improved glucose tolerance and increased energy expenditure. Analysis of key genes showed similar changes as those seen in lean animals placed directly on KD. Additionally, AMP Kinase activity was increased, with a corresponding decrease in ACC activity. These data indicate that KD induces a unique metabolic state associated with increased energy expenditure and congruous with weight loss. Key words: Ketogenic, metabolic, Hepatic, Lipid oxidation, obesity.


edit: link: http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:17299079

Edited by edward, 08 March 2008 - 07:38 AM.


#4 edward

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 07:42 AM

Theory: Ketogenic diet possibly mimicking CR, mechanism found:

http://www.rsc.org/c...ne/05060702.asp

#5 spaceistheplace

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 08:41 AM

Is this the same thing as the paleolithic diet?

http://www.earth360....iet_balzer.html

#6 Shepard

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 01:40 AM

Is this the same thing as the paleolithic diet?


Not really. You can have a ketogenic diet that is not paleo and technically paleo would allow high enough amounts of fruits/nuts that could provide enough carbs to keep one out of ketosis.

I don't have the time to give this topic any kind of decent reply, just my endorsement that periods of ketosis appear to do some nice things (particularly for those with mood/brain issues)...but I haven't seen anything that would indicate to me that ketosis is the default state that a human should strive for year-round.

#7 jorgy72

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 08:24 PM

Hi there! I have been reading these forums for over a year and have learned alot from you guys. I ended up here trying to figure out what was going on inside my head( I am bipolar and also Adhd). I have recently come across an article on 2 deoxy glucose and its possible benefits in epilepsy. Since I am on an anti convulsant(lamotrigine) and almost every anti convulsant is tested on bipolar disorder it caught my attention.2deoxyglucose's mode of action on epilepsy is probably the state of ketosis it causes I went to pubmed and did some research. I was struck by the amount of positive research that has been done recently on the ketogenic diet. Since both CR and the ketogenic diet both have the same result (ketosis) I wonder would it have the same result. It seems to me that if it does that it would be much easier to follow than calorie restriction.
here are some interesting links I have found on the subject
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ed_Discovery_RA
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ed_Discovery_RA
and here is one that may not be related but still interesting.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum
I have just started this diet as an experiment and in two weeks have noticed and improvement in mood already. any thoughts?

#8 Shepard

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 04:44 AM

http://www.ajcn.org/...t/full/86/2/276

Might be interesting to some of our low-carb fans.

#9 frederickson

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 05:38 AM

edward...

there was an excellent thread on this subject on the mind and muscle board containing both a ton of journal references and anecdotal experiences on low carbhoydrate diets.

http://www.mindandmu...showtopic=32335

i posted my thoughts with details of my own regimented diet within this thread, but i can say that i have had OVERWHELMINGLY positive experiences in terms of both body composition and brain function while on both very low (definitely ketogenic) and low (more berries and other fruit/vegetable carbs... current regimen) carbohydrate diets. unless incontrovertible evidence emerges to the contrary, i plan to permanently remain on a high protein, high healthy fat, grain and refined-carbohydrate free diet using berries as my primary carb source.

as you suggested, i would echo your sentiments as to the superiority of healthy fats (extra virgin olive oil, coconut oil, nuts, etc.) as opposed to consuming any fats of convenience. secondly, in addition to having protein and fat at the same time as whatever carbohydrates you are consuming, i would recommend adding cinnamon (cassia) as well to slow down the glucose response. i always do this in my morning protein/berry shakes, and the cinnamon adds a nice taste as well.

#10 Shepard

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 06:00 AM

Journal references are great if people read the full text and don't take something out of context.

Just something to keep in mind...

#11 frederickson

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 05:38 PM

Journal references are great if people read the full text and don't take something out of context.

Just something to keep in mind...


i agree shephard, which is one of the reasons i come to these boards. i think it is nice to supplement what is in the research with actual experiences from other like-minded individuals.

#12 edward

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 10:34 PM

Thanks for the info frederickson, I will check out that board.

Update, well its been over a month since I began my ketogenic odyssey and I have eaten less than 20 grams of carbs a day, often under 10 grams (subtracting out dietary fiber of course) and never more than 5 grams of carb at one sitting and always with fat and protein.

Needless to say I have been in ketosis (yes I bought some of those ketone strips) for the entire 1 + months.

For those who are interested, the following studies show the positive effects of ketogenic diets on multiple biomarkers of aging and disease, this includes info on why saturated fat may not be as bad for you as you think at least while on a ketogenic or very low carbohydrate (insulin/blood sugar thus tightly controlled) diet.

http://www.jlr.org/c...eprint/43/3/445
http://jn.nutrition....ract/132/7/1879
http://jama.ama-assn...ract/290/7/912
http://www.blackwell....1997.tb01460.x
http://www.sciencedi...c5c28d3de7fe84e
http://www.springerl...3nu02772414711/
http://www.mayoclini...d...&ref=7811a1

Positive Results:

Very consistent energy levels, almost no ups and downs.
Increased endurance when performing low intensity long workouts, ie running at a consistent pace for a long time, a 10 mile run at steady pace is very easy (this was not easy for me before as I was better at shorter distances with a faster pace)
Absolutely no afternoon fatigue
Allergy/Sinus symptoms practically gone
Bodyfat reduced and muscle mass maintained (I look damn good with my shirt off)
Skin tone and complexion better than ever
Absolutely no hunger whatsoever
Blood Sugar rock solid at all hours in the 80s. (Contrary to popular belief ones blood sugar drops at first but then equalizes after a couple of weeks at a higher than normal individual fasting level, blood sugar is coming from glucogenesis from proteins and fats)
Much easier to fast (24 hours), though I have only done so twice in the past month because I was scared about losing too much weight.


Negative Results:

In order to keep my weight steady I have to eat an insane amount of meat and fat.
The only way to do this type of diet and it be semi socially acceptable and cost effective is to eat large amounts of high fat protein sources (ie red meat, bacon, whole eggs, hard cheese etc). Either that or lug around bottles of flax, fish and olive oil and chug with each lean protein serving. I tried at first to limit my saturated fat intake but this is just impossible on this kind of diet
I am not 100% convinced of the neutrality of saturated fat on health (I dont want to unknowingly cause plaque to build up in my arteries)
My weight training intensity has decreased though not as much as I thought it might, and I have not visibly lost any muscle mass
My ability to perform high intensity aerobic exercise and interval training has SERIOUSLY decreased
My heart rate though at resting is about the same has the tendency to dramatically increase with stress, exercise or at the drop of a hat (I am attributing this to the fact that a ketogenic state increases adrenaline (norepineprine, epineprine) levels to aid in mobilizing fatty acids. Possibly if I am on this diet longer, certain receptors (in the heart and blood vessels etc.) will get desensitized to this effect and not react so insanely, thats my theory. As it is though it is an issue as I am afraid to do to intense a workout for fear of damaging my heart (bizarre for someone who is in such good aerobic shape as I think I am)
Though my ability to study and work for long periods of time has improved, my thinking and memory in general has not and sometimes I feel that I can't memorize stuff as well as. Perhaps my brain is still not used to ketones as a primary fuel source.

Some Notes:

The first two weeks of this diet were interesting, I went from feeling amazing one day to feeling like death the next, eventually after about a week and a half I began to feel great. So if anyone wants to try this kind of thing, you have got to hang in there for at least 2 weeks in order to feel good.

Edited by edward, 04 April 2008 - 10:55 PM.

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#13 edward

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 10:52 PM

Now all this being said. I am considering IF (intermittent fasting) as an alternative which would give me some of the ketosis benefits, coupled with the benefits of CR but I will be able to eat carbohydrates, thus be able to do HIT and high intensity aerobics once again without fear of my heart exploding, be able to lift weights better and not have to eat so much saturated fat. I have done weekly fasts but never real IF. I define real IF as fasting 24 hours then eating 24 hours, then repeat or some version of this more than once a week.

My thought is an IF schedule of Fasting starting at X pm Day 1 till X pm of Day 2, then eating X pm of Day 2 till X pm of Day 3 then repeat. Workouts could be scheduled in the middle of eat periods so as to have the most energy benefits. (This is nothing new, this schedule has been mentioned by others)

My macronutrient profile for IF would be a "Zone" type diet low in Saturated Fat with appropriate Omega 3 to 6 ratios, but if the studies of IF are true then other than taking enough fish oil and getting enough protein I shouldn't have to be too anal about macronutrient profile.

I still have not decided what to do yet. The problem with going right now into IF while not being completely sure is that I really don't want to have to go through another week and a half of feeling weird while my body re-adapts should I decide to go back to low carb (work and school would suffer too much)...

#14 frederickson

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 03:56 AM

Now all this being said. I am considering IF (intermittent fasting) as an alternative which would give me some of the ketosis benefits, coupled with the benefits of CR but I will be able to eat carbohydrates, thus be able to do HIT and high intensity aerobics once again without fear of my heart exploding, be able to lift weights better and not have to eat so much saturated fat. I have done weekly fasts but never real IF. I define real IF as fasting 24 hours then eating 24 hours, then repeat or some version of this more than once a week.

My thought is an IF schedule of Fasting starting at X pm Day 1 till X pm of Day 2, then eating X pm of Day 2 till X pm of Day 3 then repeat. Workouts could be scheduled in the middle of eat periods so as to have the most energy benefits. (This is nothing new, this schedule has been mentioned by others)

My macronutrient profile for IF would be a "Zone" type diet low in Saturated Fat with appropriate Omega 3 to 6 ratios, but if the studies of IF are true then other than taking enough fish oil and getting enough protein I shouldn't have to be too anal about macronutrient profile.

I still have not decided what to do yet. The problem with going right now into IF while not being completely sure is that I really don't want to have to go through another week and a half of feeling weird while my body re-adapts should I decide to go back to low carb (work and school would suffer too much)...


the primary focus of the mind and muscle board is a bit different, but there is some very good information over there that is germane to healthy aging and life extension. i have noticed a number of posters here post over there as well.

in any event, it seems like the positives have outweighed the negatives on your strict ketogenic approach. and while the benefits of a ketogenic diet are well established as you have pointed out, adopting a scheme of intermittent fasting by adding berries and other non-starchy fruit and vegetable carbhoydrates (along with yogurt/kefir) would probably be a good idea for intense exercise performance and optimum health.

in my opinion, the addition of berries, carrots, yogurt, etc. to an otherwise very low carbohydrate diet is the most beneficial way to incorporate as many nutrient-dense foods into your diet for overall health purposes while still reaping the rewards of a low carb diet. this is what i have done and i have not noticed any adverse changes in body composition from the addition of 50 or so very nutrient dense carbohydrates (i.e. non-starch or grain) to my low carbohydrate scheme.

#15 Shepard

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Posted 06 April 2008 - 01:10 AM

My weight training intensity has decreased though not as much as I thought it might, and I have not visibly lost any muscle mass
My ability to perform high intensity aerobic exercise and interval training has SERIOUSLY decreased


Depending on training frequency, lots of people seem to do okay just with just adding in carb intake post-workout. A decent sized piece of fruit before exercise, and then ~75-100 grams from whatever (piece of fruit and sweet potato isn't a bad combo) post-exercise. Ketone levels shouldn't dip too much for the most part outside this window.

Four weeks in ketosis should be long enough that you won't have trouble adding in glucose from time to time. But, if you become lethargic again due to your brain not liking the fuel shift, you might have to stick with one or the other.

#16 stephen_b

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 04:17 PM

I have a couple of thoughts, the first on serotonin depletion and the other on dietary AGEs.

I believe there are studies showing that a low carb diet will depress brain serotonin, since insulin from carbs will remove aminos that compete with tryptophan to get across the blood-brain barrier. Supplementing with l-tryptophan before going to bed may be a good choice (I do 1000 mg at night, and I'm delighted with the result).

Low carb diets seem to often be high in AGEs. You might want to consider either low temperature cooking (ie no blackened steaks) and/or benfotiamine supplementation with meals. My speculation is that studies that compare low carb and low fat diets that do not take into account dietary AGE intake are flawed.

Stephen

Edited by stephen_b, 23 April 2008 - 04:19 PM.


#17 Mind

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 04:32 PM

To avoid AGEs most of my meat intake is from dried meat, not cooked...you know, jerky. Commercial jerky is high in salt an nitrates so I make my own. I cut back on the salt and 'cure' and dry it a 95 degrees. Less salt/nitrates and low temp drying means it will not keep as long. I make small batches that last 2 to 3 weeks and keep most of it in the freezer (freezing will also take care of some pathogens).

#18 edward

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 03:37 PM

To avoid AGEs most of my meat intake is from dried meat, not cooked...you know, jerky. Commercial jerky is high in salt an nitrates so I make my own. I cut back on the salt and 'cure' and dry it a 95 degrees. Less salt/nitrates and low temp drying means it will not keep as long. I make small batches that last 2 to 3 weeks and keep most of it in the freezer (freezing will also take care of some pathogens).


Interesting, do you use a conventional oven to do your drying or do you have a special machine?

#19 Mind

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 04:15 PM

I used a drying machine, a fairly cheap Nesco model I found at Walmart. It works quite nicely.

#20 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:05 PM

To throw out another anecdotal data point, in violation of commonly accepted wisdom, I've been following a strict ketogenic diet (no more than 20-40g carbs daily, not counting fiber) for six days and in the last couple days set PR's on a variety of exercises, including chin-ups, overhead press and bent-over rows. I was expecting to be weaker and was completely shocked. I did verify production of ketones with test strips. Energy level throughout the day is much "flatter" and I seem to be incapable of experiencing hunger except for one occasion at the end of an 8 hour stretch of fasting during a shopping marathon. Seems to be helping my skin (fewer blemishes).

I'm eating alot of organic eggs, chicken, beef, avocados, all kinds of vegetables (spinach, green beans, brocolli, peppers, romaine, tomatoes, celery), almonds, pistachios, coconut oil, olive oil, and 85% dark chocolate.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 28 April 2008 - 09:11 PM.


#21 Shepard

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:21 PM

What rep range are you working in Funk? Did you use any stimulants before workouts back when eating carbs?

Chin-ups would seem to be a no-brainer since I imagine you've lost a bit of water/glycogen weight. I don't see any strength loss on a low-carb diet, but I rarely go above 5 reps on any big exercise. Also, the higher catecholamine levels from the diet seem to step in and help out with mental intensity for me once I get over the 4th day of feeling like dying.

Edited by shepard, 28 April 2008 - 09:34 PM.


#22 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:28 PM

I'm working in the 10-12 rep range, and have not used any stimulants for workouts.

I noticed something exciting in one of the studies posted by Jorgy above:

Neuroscience. 2007 Mar 2;145(1):256-64. Epub 2007 Jan 18.Click here to read Click here to read Links
Ketones inhibit mitochondrial production of reactive oxygen species production following glutamate excitotoxicity by increasing NADH oxidation.
Maalouf M, Sullivan PG, Davis L, Kim DY, Rho JM.

Neurology Research, NRC 4th Floor, Barrow Neurological Institute and St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center, 350 West Thomas Road, Phoenix, AZ 85013, USA.

Dietary protocols that increase serum levels of ketones, such as calorie restriction and the ketogenic diet, offer robust protection against a multitude of acute and chronic neurological diseases. The underlying mechanisms, however, remain unclear. Previous studies have suggested that the ketogenic diet may reduce free radical levels in the brain. Thus, one possibility is that ketones may mediate neuroprotection through antioxidant activity. In the present study, we examined the effects of the ketones beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate on acutely dissociated rat neocortical neurons subjected to glutamate excitotoxicity using cellular electrophysiological and single-cell fluorescence imaging techniques. Further, we explored the effects of ketones on acutely isolated mitochondria exposed to high levels of calcium. A combination of beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate (1 mM each) decreased neuronal death and prevented changes in neuronal membrane properties induced by 10 microM glutamate. Ketones also significantly decreased mitochondrial production of reactive oxygen species and the associated excitotoxic changes by increasing NADH oxidation in the mitochondrial respiratory chain, but did not affect levels of the endogenous antioxidant glutathione. In conclusion, we demonstrate that ketones reduce glutamate-induced free radical formation by increasing the NAD+/NADH ratio and enhancing mitochondrial respiration in neocortical neurons. This mechanism may, in part, contribute to the neuroprotective activity of ketones by restoring normal bioenergetic function in the face of oxidative stress.


Isn't increasing the NAD+/NADH ratio a major anti-aging mechanism of calorie restriction?

#23 Shepard

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:40 PM

Isn't increasing the NAD+/NADH ratio a major anti-aging mechanism of calorie restriction?


An increase in the ratio has been proposed to increase sirtuin activity. On paper, ketones look really good for the brain. You've also got increased UCP activity and increase mitochondrial biogenesis.

#24 edward

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 03:48 AM

keto articles and sites

http://endo.endojour...ract/144/6/2676
http://ajpendo.physi...act/292/6/E1724
http://www.lieberton...ars.2005.7.1173
http://www.medscape....warticle/450346
http://jn.nutrition....tract/132/3/483
http://www.eurekaler...s-kdp111105.php
http://stronglifts.c...-anabolic-diet/
http://www.proteinpo...arb-adaptation/
http://www.nutrition...m/content/1/1/2
http://thefuntimesgu...carbrevised.php
http://www.telegraph.../scicanc131.xml
http://www.jlr.org/c...eprint/43/3/445
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1296759
http://jn.nutrition....rint/132/7/1879
http://jama.ama-assn...ract/290/7/912
http://www.blackwell....1997.tb01460.x
http://www.sciencedi...c5c28d3de7fe84e
http://www.springerl...3nu02772414711/
http://www.mayoclini...d...&ref=7811a1

Edited by edward, 29 April 2008 - 04:17 AM.


#25 edward

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 04:03 AM

I am back on a keto diet as my IF experiment with carbs yielded some negative side effects namely I felt good while fasting but while eating carbs I felt the usual energy rollercoaster, sleepiness etc.... but oh do I love carbs lol.

Anyway back to keto, pain in the ass to adapt to it though. I am considering a couple of options aimed at increasing my energy for HIT training and to prevent the insane weight loss that Keto tends to do to me and I also want to incorporate in a 24-36 hour fast to get some benefits of IF.

My ideas mostly taken from the books I have attached are to eat ultra low carb five days a week, incorporate in one 24-36 hour fast (to get some benefits of IF) and then eat carbs one day a week followed by an intense gym session with HIT the day after carb eating. Note that I also am able to lift more weight for low reps on keto (or run at low intensity for looong periods) its just the higher reps and HIT training, "aerobic" training above 80% max heartrate, where the performance really suffers.

Sort of a modified version of these Ketogenic/Anabolic Diets. Very good reading though written for a bodybuilding audience (an intelligent bodybuilding audience though) the techniques can be adapted for our purposes.

Apparently there are copyright issue involved in uploading these books so here links where you can buy the paper versions
http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/0967145600
http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B0006F61XE

The one by Lyle McDonald is the better read and much more scientifically accurate so I would start with that one if I were you.

Edited by edward, 29 April 2008 - 04:41 PM.
Removed File Attachments.


#26 Shepard

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 11:56 AM

Lyle's book is a good read, but it should be read knowing that it's an older book. He's admitted that it needs to be updated quite a bit.

#27 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 03:09 PM

I'm guessing this is why I didn't suffer the expected strength decline:

From: http://www.ajcn.org/...t/full/86/2/276
Glucose kinetics were assessed by stable-isotope techniques while resting metabolic rates were calculated from oxygen consumption (VO2) and carbon dioxide production (VCO2) was measured by using a metabolic cart. By day 2 of the 5% carbohydrate diet, both the glucose rate of appearance and rate of disappearance decreased by 20%, and they remained suppressed on day 7. [In addition, postabsorptive carbohydrate oxidation decreased progressively over the 7-d duration, and this decline was greater than the decline in glucose uptake. This means that the rate of nonoxidative glucose disposal (ie, carbohydrate storage) increased in the postabsorptive state with the 5% carbohydrate diet. These changes suggest that there is a shift from the use of glucose to the use of ketones and free fatty acids as metabolic fuels, and that glycogen formation increases from baseline.



#28 edward

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 04:48 PM

Lyle's book is a good read, but it should be read knowing that it's an older book. He's admitted that it needs to be updated quite a bit.


He has a newer book, the Ultimate Diet 2.0 published in 2003, I haven't read it yet so I am not sure if the focus is on fat loss or muscle gain or what but it appears to be less keto focused.

#29 Shepard

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 11:11 PM

He has a newer book, the Ultimate Diet 2.0 published in 2003, I haven't read it yet so I am not sure if the focus is on fat loss or muscle gain or what but it appears to be less keto focused.


He's got a few more, too.

Ketogenic Diet
Bromocriptine - a good primer on the effects of dieting in the brain and using bromocriptine to trick it
Ultimate Diet 2.0 - focuses on dieting at lower bodyfat levels and retaining muscle mass
Rapid Fat Loss Handbook - smart PSMFing
Guide to Flexible Dieting - smart nutriton habits
The Protein Book - the definitive book on protein from an athletic perspective
The Stubborn Fat Solution - good overview of adipose metabolism and how to lose the last little bit

All of Lyle's books are well above average. I'd recommend checking all of them out.

#30 david ellis

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 08:50 PM


Pemmican: The “Power Bar” of the Fur Trade

"Fur companies like the Hudson's Bay Company calculated food for an extended trip on an astounding eight pounds per man, per day or the equivalent in pemmican, about two pounds. Today, we measure nutritional value in calories, where one pound of red meat contains about 1400 calories. The fur trade allotment calculates to 11,200 calories per man, per day. The work performed by the men in canoe brigades was hard and nearly never ending, pemmican had the concentrated calories needed."

This thread about jerky reminded me of pemmican-the ultimate ketogenic food. I don't know any heroes today that need 11,200 cal/day. Ultra-marathoners on 24 hour runs come close. But not day, after day, into the months like the trappers.

The link has recipes on making pemmican from jerky. I have gone camping using pemmican. I consider it the ultimate concentrated backpacking food. My recipe is 1 part beef fat melted and mixed with 1 part ground jerky. A blender will grind the jerky, don't get the beef fat too hot or it will burn the jerky. 8 ounces of dried sour cherries is a good flavoring per 2 lbs of pemmican and will provide maybe about 30 grams of carbs a day. Using the fat from around steaks is good, because the jerky will smell and taste delicious when heated. Maybe in water for a very quick stew. Heating is not necessary, pemmican tastes good cold too.




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