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Ketogenic diets


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#31

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 12:26 AM

It sounds to me like you may be a fast oxidizer. George Watson developed this concept of fast, slow and mixed oxidizers back in the 1960's, I think. Paul Eck continued this research later on.
Fast oxidizers have an unusual metabolism, usually a lean build and I think can also have a lot of nervous energy (hyper).

Now fast oxidizers are also histadlics and under-methylaters. That means there are three different ways of looking at this metabolic type.

And the oxidizer theory is the source of the diet for this type, which is slow digesting food to help slow down or not speed up any further the already fast metabolism this type has. They can eat 6 meals - meals NOT snacks - and still not feel full. And simply put their muscles oxidize sugar rapidly and they don't usually gain muscle or fat easily. So the right diet, a slow digesting one, helps them in a number of ways besides just keeping appetite under control.
You indicate a number of possible signs you are a fast oxidizer: study now for longer periods, you have no hunger now, "highly carb loaded exercise addict," you were better at high intense, shorter duration exercise, difficulty with fasting and the sinus problems. Those could indicate you have high histame levels. (Histame levels are balanced by an orthomolecular approach.)

I think you feel better mentally perhaps because your methylation has improved and that does effect neurotransmitters. Histadelics need sulfur which they get from methione which is highest in animal protein. Another reason why this diet may be good for you.

Histadelics tend to have acidic bloodstream and acidic tissues. I think high protein diets may be acid producing so you might want to watch for indications of increaded acidity. I'm not sure of all the possible signs of high acid levels though.

Hidtadelic are also supposed to take magnesium and calcium. I think these might be good for because the CA woild buffer the acid and the magnesium balances your electrolytes. I would suggest the heart rate problem might be about an imbalance of potassium (and sodium). Another reason to supplement MG is that keto diets can be high in phosporus which binds up MG into magnesium phosphate which the body can't use. This has been reported as to why those on keto diets can feel tired (I can't post sources that well from my PDA). I think magnesium might help your energy levels.

But McCleary's book sounds interesting. I already checked one local bookstore (they didn't have it though) to see if I can get a sense of it before shopping it online at a discount. I am interested in getting a sense if he recommends one diet for all body types. I definitely think keto is good for some types but may not be right for all types.

#32 edward

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 02:07 AM

Very interesting orthomolecular, I had already figured that I was an under-methylator. Taking large doses of TMG with B6, Folic Acid and methyl b-12 has a noticeable effect. The whole reccomendations with regards to methylation are a bit unclear though as far as doses etc. perhaps because it is new. High doses of methinonine from what I have heard are not necessarily a good thing as it is methinonine that is converted to homocysteine which B6 TMG etc help lower.

The whole idea behind the keto diet or basically what happens when you eat a paleo diet. I would argue that a paleo diet, ie the diet humans evolved to eat (lots of meat, supplemented with berries, non starchy vegetables, eggs nuts etc.) combined with fasting, will put anyone into keto for much of the time thus a keto state of some depth is the state that we were evolved to exist in. There are a bunch of softer paleo diets out there that seem to push unlimited fruits vegetables and nuts thus maybe pushing one out of keto but seriously this is not what man existed on for 90% of his/her existence, the availability of year round plump apples and bannanas did not exist.

So to say there are different diets for different people seems to be problematic because we have not had time to evolve out of our paleo metabolism. Less than 10,000 years of agriculture (and signifigantly less than that in most places) is simply not enough to shape our genome signifigantly. So I would argue that a paleo diet is THE diet for everyone. Note also that we ate the whole animal once upon a time, getting monofats from bone marrow, omega 3 and various scarce nutrients from the brain and other organ meats, calcium from bones and what not. Supplements can fill in the gaps here, since its not real practical to butcher, cook(or not), an entire deer, buffalo, wallabee or what have you in your back yard

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#33 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 02:02 PM

The whole idea behind the keto diet or basically what happens when you eat a paleo diet. I would argue that a paleo diet, ie the diet humans evolved to eat (lots of meat, supplemented with berries, non starchy vegetables, eggs nuts etc.) combined with fasting, will put anyone into keto for much of the time thus a keto state of some depth is the state that we were evolved to exist in. There are a bunch of softer paleo diets out there that seem to push unlimited fruits vegetables and nuts thus maybe pushing one out of keto but seriously this is not what man existed on for 90% of his/her existence, the availability of year round plump apples and bannanas did not exist.

So to say there are different diets for different people seems to be problematic because we have not had time to evolve out of our paleo metabolism. Less than 10,000 years of agriculture (and signifigantly less than that in most places) is simply not enough to shape our genome signifigantly. So I would argue that a paleo diet is THE diet for everyone. Note also that we ate the whole animal once upon a time, getting monofats from bone marrow, omega 3 and various scarce nutrients from the brain and other organ meats, calcium from bones and what not. Supplements can fill in the gaps here, since its not real practical to butcher, cook(or not), an entire deer, buffalo, wallabee or what have you in your back yard


I generally agree with the above and I feel really good eating this way, I'm so glad I decided to experiment with it. [selfish]Lets hope this doesn't truly catch on, because there aren't enough paleo foods to go around! If I recall correctly, 85% of calories worldwide (feeding six billion people) comes from grains. There is no turning back for the vast majority, they'll either eat grain in large quantity or starve.[/selfish]

Even in America though, where most people could afford to eat a paleo diet if they were so inclined, few people have the discipline to give up carbs. I don't think it will ever become too widespread for that reason, regardless of how many studies you pile on to demonstrate the health benefits of a ketogenic diet (you can say the same about Calorie Restriction). I hope further investigation compares LCKD with CR to see just how similar / dissimilar their effects are, and what effect ketogenic diets have on lifespan.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 03 May 2008 - 02:04 PM.


#34 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 02:11 PM

Have you given any thought to supplementation in relation to ketogenic diets? Carnitine is very important during ketosis to properly utilize fatty acids and ketones, and I noticed a more dramatic mental boost from it recently than before adopting this diet (500mg ALCAR 3x daily). It also occurred to me that lipoic acid might accelerate the adaption process by driving glucose levels lower and triggering increased production of ketones (caution would need to be exercised with this strategy so as not to produce symptomatic hypoglycemia).

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 03 May 2008 - 02:14 PM.


#35 Shepard

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 02:26 PM

It also occurred to me that lipoic acid might accelerate the adaption process by driving glucose levels lower and triggering increased production of ketones (caution would need to be exercised with this strategy so as not to produce symptomatic hypoglycemia).


This approach has been used for years in certain communities. However, I'm pretty much useless if I consume any significant amount (150mg+) of lipoic acid while in ketosis.

L-Carnitine and Pantothenic Acid have been routinely talked about for use while in ketosis, but I doubt there is any real benefit if you're eating a decent amount of meat (1+ pound/day).

#36 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 07:50 PM

You'll definitely get enough carnitine from all the meat you're eating, but specifically acetyl-l-carnitine crosses the blood-brain barrier more readily than other forms (or so I've read), and getting the brain running happily on ketones is a major part of the adaptation process. On this basis I think ALCAR might have some utility despite an otherwise adequate l-carnitine intake from meat. I have taken ALCAR before on a regular diet and it never gave me such a noticeable boost.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 03 May 2008 - 07:52 PM.


#37 Mind

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 09:32 PM

Even in America though, where most people could afford to eat a paleo diet if they were so inclined, few people have the discipline to give up carbs.


What is the reason for the addiction to carbs? I always thought it was because the brain runs on glucose, and the brain gets what it wants, most of the time. So it is like a glucose addiction. I am pretty disciplined, but even I like like carbs.

#38 Shepard

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 10:47 PM

What is the reason for the addiction to carbs? I always thought it was because the brain runs on glucose, and the brain gets what it wants, most of the time. So it is like a glucose addiction. I am pretty disciplined, but even I like like carbs.


The brain always gets what it wants. There is no real physiological need to ingest glucose. The body is perfectly able to make it itself, and will. Even in ketosis, the brain and a few other tissues requires glucose.

That said, any type of carbhoydrate addiction is likely a feedback loop involving reward pathways in the brain.

Edited by shepard, 03 May 2008 - 10:48 PM.


#39

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 11:37 PM

If you suspect you under-methylate you might avoid folic acid (depending on the dose). Niacin and folic acid raise histamine levels. B12 can be a problem for some histadelics. You should use niacinamide as your B3 supplement

The dose of nutrutional suppelents any one needs to take I think is more art than science. My ortho psychiatrist tells me to adjust a dose and then we see how the tests (nutrient levels in blood) look in a month or two (and of course how I feel too). I wish there were some easy or general answer for how much to supplement but that is too much of a "one size fits all" approach. I think the reality is more like a trial and error process.

Methionine does convert into homo cysteine (hcy) if your methylation is faulty. You have the basic vitamins B6 and B12, but folic acid is only for histapenics. You could take small dose of folic when your histamine levels are balanced. I have heard others post on other forums about tolerating a multi-vitamin or some b-comlex dose of folic after taking some type of methyl donor for some time. How long have you been taking TMG? How much folic do you take? Having to avoid folic acid completely would be a problem for most histadelics b/c no companu makes a multi for them.

I don't take TMG (b/c it is a methyl donor which I don't need)but I think that it can break down and turn into glycine. I wonder how taking glycine itself would effect ketogenic state. I think glycine helps the liver maintain glucogen levels. I was under the impression that glucogen stores in the liver are supposed to be depleted by a certain amount to get into a ketogenic state. (Not sure about this though.) I wonder how glucogenic aminos would effect getting into a ketogenic state. I wonder if TMG breaks down to glycine for everyone - even those who need it as methyl donor.

I remembered (after I posted) that ketogenic diets work for young children with epilespy. That has me wondering if fasting or a ketogenic state may make some people feel better (mentally) b/c of how it can reduce excitory neurotransmitters like glutamate.

#40 edward

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 04:52 AM

My latest diet adventure is in the intermittent fasting club thread http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry237434

Basically mostly low carb ketogenic, with intermittent fasting, intermittent glycogen/carb ups surrounding some exercise sessions, with glycogen depletion as well all with a primarily Paleo Kitchen with a modified Warrior Diet IF schedule. Basically a synthesis of IF, Paleo, Warrior (I really hate that title), Lyle McDonald... Well see if I pass out, waste away to nothing or become superman.

#41 Shepard

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 11:25 AM

Basically mostly low carb ketogenic, with intermittent fasting, intermittent glycogen/carb ups surrounding some exercise sessions, with glycogen depletion as well all with a primarily Paleo Kitchen with a modified Warrior Diet IF schedule.


Have you read the new edition of Ori's book? I'm been on the fence about picking it up. It's one of those things that I know will disappoint me, but I'm still curious.

#42 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 11:40 AM

Any swedish who wants to start such a diet could benefit from chatting here http://blogg.passage...ahlqvistannika/ very informative debate of paleo and LCHF diets

#43 VictorBjoerk

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 11:41 AM

http://www.adlibris....isbn=9172411317
Or by the book which explains all benefits of eating as little carbohydrates as possible

#44 edward

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 03:20 PM

Basically mostly low carb ketogenic, with intermittent fasting, intermittent glycogen/carb ups surrounding some exercise sessions, with glycogen depletion as well all with a primarily Paleo Kitchen with a modified Warrior Diet IF schedule.


Have you read the new edition of Ori's book? I'm been on the fence about picking it up. It's one of those things that I know will disappoint me, but I'm still curious.


Yes I read the 2007 version. I think it is worth reading there are a lot of good ideas but its not like the Protein Power Lifeplan book that was in my opinion just a revelation. I think if Ori framed the book in more of a Paleo light emphasizing evolution and ancient hunters as opposed to warriors it would be more palatable to me, there were many other annoying aspects and things I didn't necessarily agree with but I skimmed those parts. I never read the 2003 version so I can't comment on the differences. The one thing missing I think from Protein Power was attention to intermittent fasting and when to eat and not eat and how ancient man/ancient proto man experienced this. I think Art DeVany probably has better grasp of this and I can't wait until he finally publishes his book. I think Dr. Eades has realized the lack of attention to IF in his book, as evidenced by his posts on his website about him and his wife experimenting with IF. Should he write another book I think he will address that.

A couple of notes. Shepard, one thing you mentioned which rang clear to me is that Ori doesn't look all that great for his age. I agree with you with regards to his face, skin etc. His body is pretty good for someone in their late 50's but I see a low body fat percentage and decent muscle mass to be an easy goal for anyone to accomplish relative to antiaging effects. Then again it could be genes, past bad habits (smoking drinking drugs) whatever.

#45 stephen_b

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 05:22 PM

My ability to perform high intensity aerobic exercise and interval training has SERIOUSLY decreased


I'm curious whether a ketogenic diet that is simultaneously high in olive oil would result in good aerobic performance. I seem to remember a crossover study with cyclists that validated that.

Stephen

#46 pseudo-princess

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Posted 08 May 2008 - 03:10 AM

I've been following a diet very low in refined carbs for the last 5 or so years (carbs coming from fruits and vegetables.) I've also been practicing calorie restriction (approx 1400 cal/day) for about the same length. I've found that I can generally get an adequate amount of protein from chicken breast, fish, eggs, and tofu. I exercise moderately (pilates 3 days a week, cardio sessions of 30 min 3 days a week.)
One benefit that I've definitely noticed from this diet (not sure if it's due to carb restriction or calorie restriction though, or some other moderating variable) is endurance. Not so much physical (I do a fair bit of walking in my daily life but nothing impressive) but moreso mental and emotional; I've noticed that I seem to have a much easier time working 12-hour days and handling emotionally draining situations than many people I know. Though it's just speculation that that's based on diet.

#47 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 08 May 2008 - 12:11 PM

I think the rock solid glucose level produced by a very low carb diet is responsible for that. On a typical diet your brain is on a rollercoaster throughout the day of rising and falling glucose levels, with corresponding abundance and deficits of mental energy.

#48 Brainbox

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Posted 08 May 2008 - 01:51 PM

I've got the same experience. positivly due to adopting a low carb diet a couple years ago and negativly due to stopping this diet about 1 year ago.
Last week I started again and already feel improvement. It was not in anyway bad during this undisciplined interval, but not as good as is possible either.

I've been on light to moderate CR the last 10 to 15 years.

Edited by brainbox, 08 May 2008 - 01:56 PM.


#49 Brainbox

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 11:01 AM

Not to much info, but anyways, don't forget the veggies:

Low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets that restrict potassium-rich fruits and vegetables promote calciuria.

Johnston CS, Tjonn SL, Swan PD, White A, Sears B.
PMID: 17019517 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



This one has been discussed here a while ago:

Low-carbohydrate-high-protein diet and long-term survival in a general population cohort.Trichopoulou A, Psaltopoulou T, Orfanos P, Hsieh CC, Trichopoulos D.
Department of Hygiene and Epidemiology, School of Medicine, University of Athens, Athens, Greece. antonia@nut.uoa.gr

OBJECTIVE: We have evaluated the effects on mortality of habitual low carbohydrate-high-protein diets that are thought to contribute to weight control. DESIGN: Cohort investigation. SETTING: Adult Greek population. SUBJECTS METHODS: Follow-up was performed from 1993 to 2003 in the context of the Greek component of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and nutrition. Participants were 22 944 healthy adults, whose diet was assessed through a validated questionnaire. Participants were distributed by increasing deciles according to protein intake or carbohydrate intake, as well as by an additive score generated by increasing decile intake of protein and decreasing decile intake of carbohydrates. Proportional hazards regression was used to assess the relation between high protein, high carbohydrate and the low carbohydrate-high protein score on the one hand and mortality on the other. RESULTS: During 113 230 persons years of follow-up, there were 455 deaths. In models with energy adjustment, higher intake of carbohydrates was associated with significant reduction of total mortality, whereas higher intake of protein was associated with nonsignificant increase of total mortality (per decile, mortality ratios 0.94 with 95% CI 0.89 -0.99, and 1.02 with 95% CI 0.98 -1.07 respectively). Even more predictive of higher mortality were high values of the additive low carbohydrate-high protein score (per 5 units, mortality ratio 1.22 with 95% CI 1.09 -to 1.36). Positive associations of this score were noted with respect to both cardiovascular and cancer mortality. CONCLUSION: Prolonged consumption of diets low in carbohydrates and high in protein is associated with an increase in total mortality.

PMID: 17136037 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Low-carbohydrate diets.Last AR, Wilson SA.
Department of Family and Community Medicine, Medical College of Wisconsin, Racine Family Medicine Residency Program, Racine, Wisconsin 53403, USA. alast@mcw.edu

Americans spend dollar 33 billion annually on weight loss products and services, and a large portion of this money is spent on low-carbohydrate diets. Because of their higher protein and fat content and lower fiber and carbohydrate content, concerns have been raised about the potential health consequences of low-carbohydrate diets. Published long-term data are lacking. Short-term studies comparing traditional low-fat diets with low-carbohydrate diets found lower triglyceride levels, higher high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, similar low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, and lower A1C levels in persons on low-carbohydrate diets. These diets induce greater weight loss at three and six months than traditional low-fat diets; however, by one year there is no significant difference in maintained weight loss. Weight loss is directly related to calorie content and the ability to maintain caloric restriction; the proportions of nutrients in the diet are irrelevant. Low-carbohydrate diets had lower dropout rates than low-fat diets in several studies, possibly because of the high protein content and low glycemic index, which can be appetite suppressing. Data indicate that low-carbohydrate diets are a safe, reasonable alternative to low-fat diets for weight loss. Additional studies are needed to investigate the long-term safety and effectiveness of these and other approaches to weight loss.

PMID: 16770923 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


So, it's very easy to find both negative and positive indicators. After my short query, it is my observation that it seems that the negative ones cannot be dismissed.
Most studies are aimed towards weight loss situations though.

Edited by brainbox, 10 May 2008 - 11:03 AM.


#50 Brainbox

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 11:05 AM

Anyway, how low carb are you aiming for?
I still eat about 100 grams a day on average and after reading some studies I think I will do some more studying, but probably will increase.

Edited by brainbox, 10 May 2008 - 11:08 AM.


#51 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 12:18 PM

Brainbox: the study you posted regarding increased mortality refers to a high-protein, low-carb diet. A ketogenic diet is, above all else, a high fat diet, with moderate protein (15-20%) and minimal carbs (<10%). I'm currently eating about 25-30g of non-fiber carbohydrates a day.

If you find any studies demonstrating negative effects of a ketogenic diet, please let me know (otherwise I'll be eating this way indefinitely, I feel great).

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 10 May 2008 - 12:29 PM.


#52 edward

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Posted 10 May 2008 - 10:31 PM

Funk,

A few questions.

1. What is your typical daily food intake (as in give me a typical, not ideal but typical, breakfast, lunch, dinner snacks etc.). I just want to compare what I am eating.
2. Have you lost any weight, if so how much and has your weight stabilized.
3. Have you changed your supplement plan (note there is less need to be obsessive about anti-glycation and blood sugar supplements before meals yay :) so any changes?)
4. How is your memory? I found I have great attention and concentration, almost like taking Adderall or a higher dose of Modafinil than I take, but my memory is just so so.

#53 edward

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 02:00 AM

Do ketogenic diets make you smarter? Well evidence shows increased mitochondrial density and better utilization of energy (I posted these studies early in this thread)... This guy tested rats on keto vs. non keto (he studies keto as a treatment for epilepsy) any ways here info from him. http://w3.ouhsc.edu/...ope/ketogen.htm halfway down the page.

Dr. Stafstrom described several experiments in which rats given ketogenic diets were compared with rats on normal diets as various parameters of cognition and behavior were tested. In general, the rats on the ketogenic diet did better in several tests, such as the "water maze", which measures the ability to learn and remember the location of food on a platform in a pool of water through which the rat has to swim to reach the food. "I am not willing to say that the ketogenic diet makes rats smarter, but at least it's clear that it doesn't make them any dumber", said Dr. Stafstrom, and this observed effect correlates with observations in children with severe epilepsy on the ketogenic diet who experience improvements in mood, behavior, and cognition. Unfortunately, this improvement carries with it an increase in activity, possibly hyperactivity, in terms of awareness and exploration of the surroundings; this may correlate with observations of increased irritability in some children on the diet.

Edited by edward, 11 May 2008 - 02:00 AM.


#54 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 10:05 AM

1. What is your typical daily food intake (as in give me a typical, not ideal but typical, breakfast, lunch, dinner snacks etc.). I just want to compare what I am eating.
2. Have you lost any weight, if so how much and has your weight stabilized.
3. Have you changed your supplement plan (note there is less need to be obsessive about anti-glycation and blood sugar supplements before meals yay smile.gif so any changes?)
4. How is your memory? I found I have great attention and concentration, almost like taking Adderall or a higher dose of Modafinil than I take, but my memory is just so so.


Sure, lets compare notes. Here's what I eat on a typical day:

Breakfast: 3 organic cage-free eggs, 40g of 85% dark chocolate (1/3 to 1/2 of a typical bar), tablespoon of coconut oil

Snack: couple handfuls of mixed nuts (almonds, pecans, cashews, brazil nuts, hazelnuts)

Lunch: large serving of chicken salad (trader joes canned chunk chicken, organic mayonnaise), large salad with baby spinach, romaine, random veggies, and 4 tablespoons of olive oil & red wine vinegar dressing, tablespoon of coconut oil

Snack: more mixed nuts

Dinner: two 1/4 lb 85% lean hamburgers (organic beef), covered with a large amount of guacamole and a couple teaspoons of salsa, large serving of vegetables (brocolli, green beans, asparagus, mixed veggies, etc) covered in olive oil, tablespoon of coconut oil

Beverages throughout the day consist of water, rooibos tea and hanson diet soda (sucralose sweetened). I estimate the total calories to be in the neighborhood of 2500-3000 calories. I am 6'6" tall, was 195 lbs initially and am now 190 lbs after 4-5 weeks on this diet. Lost weight I attribute to water and fat -- I have never been this lean in my life, but have not lost any strength and may have even gained a small amount of muscle. I lost most of the weight in the first two weeks, and have not noticed any significant change since then.

Some other good ideas for food include celery sticks filled with almond butter (I eat this all the time), all kinds of omelets, bacon, cheese and plain whole milk yogurt or kefir (I try to avoid dairy these days but if you don't have a problem with it, go for it), egg salad, stews or soups (combining meat with non-starchy vegetables), olives, avocados, any non-starchy vegetables, small measured servings of berries, any kind of nut butter aside from cashew and peanut which are both too high in carbs (finding ways to eat it without bread is the challenge), cobb salad, organic hot dogs w/ mustard, any kind of meat. Try to ensure that all of your meat, eggs, and dairy products are organic, otherwise these items will not be very healthy to consume due to pesticide/chemical residues accumulated in the animal fat.

I was taking arginine and histidine before meals to address the postprandial glucose surge of a typical diet; these are no longer necessary IMO. I was also taking Carnosine which I will probably not continue due to high cost and questionable benefit. I do still take benfotiamine, 150mg with each meal (450mg daily), because there is so much evidence of positive effects in human trials. The glycation process may be better controlled and proceed more slowly on this diet but it remains a problem nonetheless. I want to add pyridoxamine too but am looking for a cheaper source than Jarrow Pyridoxall (I am going to ask Paul Wakfer where he obtains his) so I can take a substantial dosage. I will be switching from regular ALA soon to Na-RALA at the same dose. I may also be adding some Jarrow Toco-sorb (Tocomin tocotrienol complex) and Epicor soon.

Here's my complete regimen at the current time (it changes often):

Breakfast-
Ortho-core: 2 capsules
Vitamin D: 2000iu
Vitamin C: 500mg
N-Acetyl-Cysteine: 500mg
Flax Oil: 3g
Fish Oil: 200mg DHA, 400mg EPA
Methyl B12: 1mg
L-methylfolate: 800mcg
Acetyl-L-Carnitine: 500mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid: 300mg
Green Tea Extract: 400mg (200mg EGCG)
Taurine: 1g
Benfotiamine: 150mg
CDP-Choline: 250mg
Piracetam: 2400mg

Lunch-
Ortho-core: 2 caps
Vitamin C: 500mg
Flax Oil: 3g
Fish Oil: 200mg DHA, 400mg EPA
Acetyl-L-Carnitine: 500mg
Green Tea Extract: 400mg (200mg EGCG)
Taurine: 1g
Benfotiamine: 150mg
CDP-Choline: 250mg
Piracetam: 1600mg
Lactobacillus GG: 10 billion CFU (Culturelle capsule)

Dinner-
Ortho-core: 2 caps
Vitamin C: 500mg
N-Acetyl-Cysteine: 500mg
Flax Oil: 3g
Fish Oil: 200mg DHA, 400mg EPA
Acetyl-L-Carnitine: 500mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid: 300mg
Green Tea Extract: 400mg (200mg EGCG)
Taurine: 1g
Benfotiamine: 150mg

Bedtime-
Vitamin C: 500mg
Taurine: 1g
Magnesium Citrate: 500mg
Zinc: 30mg
Lactobacillus GG: 10 billion CFU (Culturelle capsule)

I think my memory is quite good, but I'm not sure if the diet or the cdp-choline and piracetam are responsible. I introduced both at about the same time.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 11 May 2008 - 12:04 PM.


#55 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 10:21 AM

Unfortunately, this improvement carries with it an increase in activity, possibly hyperactivity, in terms of awareness and exploration of the surroundings; this may correlate with observations of increased irritability in some children on the diet.

Carbohydrate intake and the associated insulin spike provides an opportunity for tryptophan uptake by the brain. Tryptophan competes with several other amino acids for BBB transport and insulin drives the other amino acids into muscles, clearing the way for tryptophan. In theory then, due to the lack of significant insulin release, the ketogenic diet might result in lower serotonin levels in the brain which could possibly result in irritability. I was toying with the idea of adding 500-1000mg of tryptophan at bedtime for this reason.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 11 May 2008 - 10:23 AM.


#56 edward

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 04:34 PM

Keto Day (Ive been playing around with a Warrior diet type fasting then big dinner type day using paleo foods with a carb up after some workouts so this is obviously not a reflection of that but a reflection of a typical keto diet day)

Breakfast (weekday breakfasts are rushed so I opt for time saving I sometimes eat a "breakfast type meal for dinner):
Protein Shake Concoction: 40 grams of Whey Protein, 1/4 cup of berries, 1 cup of mixed greens/veggies (spinach, kale, parsley etc., I mix up a big bowl of these each week for salads or "juicing" purposes and try to rotate veggies each week) 1 tbsp MCT Oil, 1 Tbsp Olive Oil also at this time I am taking 1 Tbsp of Fish Oil though I dont mix this in.
Now this concotion tastes, well not so great but I chug it as I am running out the door for nutritional value.

Lunch/Snack is usually packed the night before, but if I don't then I will typically eat ala Atkins for lunch, big hunk of meat with a mixed green salad

Snack: Mixed Nuts (salt free, I buy almonds, brazil nuts, pecans and yes I throw in some peanuts they are controversial but I am convinced they are more like a nut then legume) and Hard Cheese

Lunch: Two Organic Hamburger Patties 85% with Cheese, Mixed vegetable salad usually from my big bowl of premixed weekly veggies, more nuts

Pre Workout: Shake 15 ish grams of whey protein and 1 tbsp MCT oil, creatine, AKG, Citruline Maleate

Post Workout: Shake 40 grams of whey protein


Dinner (here I get the breakfast I was too busy to enjoy in the am): 5 cage free organic eggs fried with cheese sprinkled on top. 5 strips of organic nitrate free bacon, Mixed green salad with sunflower seeds or whatever seeds I have available, cherry tomatoes, my favorite salad dressing is Annies Goddess Dressing from whole foods. I will also take 1 tbsp of Flax Oil and some GLA capsules at this time. Depending on my estimated carb intake for the day I will have some berries at this time as well 1/2 a cup or so usually a mixture of blackberries, strawberries and wild blueberries (much lower in carbs than typical blueberries) (all frozen) after doing ultra low carb for awhile berries taste amazingly sweet and a half a cup of them is real treat. Previously on my diet before berries usually tasted a bit sour, its amazing how your body adapts.

Sometimes my wife and I go out to eat and then I just go strictly low carb "Atkins" I have a calorie counter on my treo smartphone (calorieking www.calorieking.com) that does a great job with carbs from obscure Japanese dishes to typical American fare so if I have any issues with finding ultra low carb I consult it, but I am pretty good with the carb content of foods.

Liquids: I drink lots of water, sometimes with lemon, sometimes will drink green tea, I regularly drink Diet Rite soda caffeine free (sweetened with splenda) but will not balk at having the occasional diet coke with aspartame if nothing else is available

I don't stress as much about non organic meats when not at home so while I buy them to eat at home or when packing meals I am ok with eating non organic at restaurants and such.

My supplement routine is the same for now as it has always been (I have yet to type it all out, one day when I get some time I will but its an undertaking as I take a lot of stuff)

Edited by edward, 11 May 2008 - 04:53 PM.


#57 edward

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 04:38 PM

Unfortunately, this improvement carries with it an increase in activity, possibly hyperactivity, in terms of awareness and exploration of the surroundings; this may correlate with observations of increased irritability in some children on the diet.

Carbohydrate intake and the associated insulin spike provides an opportunity for tryptophan uptake by the brain. Tryptophan competes with several other amino acids for BBB transport and insulin drives the other amino acids into muscles, clearing the way for tryptophan. In theory then, due to the lack of significant insulin release, the ketogenic diet might result in lower serotonin levels in the brain which could possibly result in irritability. I was toying with the idea of adding 500-1000mg of tryptophan at bedtime for this reason.


I have thought about that too. I take 100 mg of 5htp at night. I do take 40 mg of prozac so any more 5htp than 100 mg and I am afraid of side effects. I think 5htp might be a better option than tryptophan just because if there are any aminos such as tyrosine in your digestive tract that are being absorbed then they will outcompete tryptophan but probably not 5htp

#58 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 05:50 PM

It looks like we are eating alot of the same foods and drinks. I guess that shouldn't be surprising because there aren't that many to choose from that fit our criteria. I did spend alot of time thinking about it so hopefully I provided one or two new ideas for you. Also, Coconut Oil basically is MCT oil (about 50-60% MCT), with some additional fats -- you might want to check it out because its cheaper (Nutiva organic extra-virgin coconut oil is $23 for 54oz tub at iherb) and tastes better. Some of its bonus fatty acids like caprylic acid have unique health benefits.

I don't like 5-HTP as much because it can be, and is, converted to serotonin outside the brain. The largest presence of serotonin in the body is in the gut, where it is the primary neurotransmitter, and in practice 5-HTP is known to meddle with digestion (gut issues are the most common side effect). There are also concerns raised, albeit purely theoretical, about 5-HTP raising plasma serotonin levels enough to cause heart valve damage. On the other hand, tryptophan will not undergo peripheral conversion to serotonin so you don't have to worry about any of this. You won't run into the conflicting amino acid transport problem if you take it well away from food, that's why bedtime is appropriate (also because it will facilitate melatonin production).

I look forward to seeing your supplement regimen. :|w

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 11 May 2008 - 05:57 PM.


#59 Shepard

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 04:18 PM

More hints at improvement in redox status:

J Neurochem. 2008 May 5 [Epub ahead of print]

The Ketogenic Diet Increases Mitochondrial Glutathione Levels.

Jarrett SG, Milder JB, Liang LP, Patel M.

Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences, University of Colorado Denver, Denver, CO 80262, USA.

The ketogenic diet (KD) is a high-fat, low carbohydrate diet that is used as a therapy for intractable epilepsy. However, the mechanism(s) by which the KD achieves neuroprotection and/or seizure control are not yet known. We sought to determine whether the KD improves mitochondrial redox status. Adolescent Sprague-Dawley rats (P28) were fed a KD or control diet for 3 weeks and ketosis was confirmed by plasma levels of beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB). KD-fed rats showed a 2-fold increase in hippocampal mitochondrial glutathione (GSH) and GSH/GSSG ratio compared to control diet-fed rats. To determine whether elevated mitochondrial GSH was associated with increased de novo synthesis, the enzymatic activity of glutamate cysteine ligase (GCL) (the rate limiting enzyme in GSH biosynthesis) and protein levels of the catalytic (GCLC) and modulatory (GCLM) subunits of GCL were analyzed. Increased GCL activity, as well as upregulated protein levels of GCL subunits in KD-fed, but not control rats, was observed. Reduced coenzyme A (CoASH), an indicator of mitochondrial redox status, and lipoic acid, a thiol antioxidant, were also significantly increased in the hippocampus of KD-fed rats compared to controls. Since GSH is a major mitochondrial antioxidant that protects mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) against oxidative damage, we measured mitochondrial hydrogen peroxide (H(2)O(2)) production and H(2)O(2)-induced mtDNA damage. Isolated hippocampal mitochondria from KD-fed rats showed functional consequences consistent with the improvement of mitochondrial redox status i.e. decreased H(2)O(2) production and mtDNA damage. Together, the results demonstrate that the KD upregulates GSH biosynthesis, enhances mitochondrial antioxidant status, and protects mtDNA from oxidant-induced damage.

PMID: 18466343 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]



#60 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 04:29 PM

Awesome find, thanks for posting that Shep! :|w




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