410 replies to this topic

[edward]

There are opposing views everywhere, not just some obscure net doctor, just go to the American Heart Association website or read anything by mainstream nutritionists (the low fat crowd), Dean Ornish etc etc.

[Mind]

I can understand the opposing view. If you are not eating organic protein products then I can understand how you might increase your risk of certain cancers, however, the alternative of eating a low fat but high carb diet will kill you much quicker with a long period of suffering and disability.

I hope this study finally sticks a fork in the low fat (and usually) high carb "diet".

(Anecdotally speaking here) The extremely low fat diet became a recommendation for healthy living back in the 1970s and 1980s and I think it has done untold harm to an entire generation. I personally saw many relatives and acquaintances suffer diabetes, heart disease, and all kinds of disability because they were gorging themselves on sugar, rice, noodles, potatoes, etc. - but hey, it was great because it had zero fat! Sadly, it is taking mainstream health practitioners a long time to adjust their thinking. A few fats are bad, many are essential and very beneficial. Sugar and carbs are terrible. People don't have to go totally carnivorous, they just need to eat high nutrient low carb foods.

[frederickson]

(Anecdotally speaking here) The extremely low fat diet became a recommendation for healthy living back in the 1970s and 1980s and I think it has done untold harm to an entire generation. I personally saw many relatives and acquaintances suffer diabetes, heart disease, and all kinds of disability because they were gorging themselves on sugar, rice, noodles, potatoes, etc. - but hey, it was great because it had zero fat! Sadly, it is taking mainstream health practitioners a long time to adjust their thinking. A few fats are bad, many are essential and very beneficial. Sugar and carbs are terrible. People don't have to go totally carnivorous, they just need to eat high nutrient low carb foods.

well said, mind! i agree completely and recommend my personal training clients to do the same - usually with great results.

for those interested in the full text of the study, see below...

http://content.nejm..../full/359/3/229

[Mind]

Just a little rant about low fat yogurt. 90% of the yogurt sold in grocery stores around my area is fat free and it is sold as a "healthier food". Check the label and most of them have more sugar than regular yogurt. GRRRR! All I want is REGULAR yogurt!

[FunkOdyssey]

That is frustrating isn't it? My solution has been to buy plain kefir, which has only 8g of natural sugars per 8oz serving, and sweeten it using 1-2 packets of splenda and 6-8 drops of bourbon vanilla extract. It has a yummy vanilla flavor and some 22g less sugar than a comparable sweetened product.

[Mind]

Regular walking protects the Masai from heart disease

Scientists have long been puzzled by how the Masai can avoid cardiovascular disease despite having a diet rich in animal fats. Researchers at Karolinska Institutet believe that their secret is in their regular walking.

There is strong evidence that the high consumption of animal fats increases the risk of developing cardiovascular disease. Many scientists have therefore been surprised that the nomadic Masai of Kenya and Tanzania are seldom afflicted by the disease, despite having a diet that is rich in animal fats and deficient in carbohydrates.

$^&%&*!!

Do these people live in a cave? Sure, exercise is beneficial, but this would seem to be more prima facie that CARBOHYDRATES are bad for you. Hello, didn't they even consider this fact. Someone should send a letter to these "researchers" and throw some "cold water" in their face. Seriously, is there some sort of world-wide conspiracy against the paleo/Mediterranean/ketogenic/Atkins-type diet?

I would like to take a look through all of the "strong evidence" linking fat consumption to heart disease. From my experience, the people (in the west) who eat a lot of animal fat also have a high consumption of carbs and sugars. I wonder how many of these past studies controlled for carb/sugar intake? Anybody know?

[edward]

I buy plain Kefir as well along with plain Stonyfield Yogurt. Then I add splenda as well. Kroger also now has "Carb Masters" yogurt with only 3 g of sugar per cup.

Just an aside about Kefir and other yogurts (like Stonyfield) with many different bacterial cultures. The amount of sugars in these products is probably much less than the stated amount the package as the active cultures metabolize sugar (even after the product has been packaged), the byproduct is lactic acid, which often for lack of a proper classification is lumped into the sugar category.

[edward]

Regular walking protects the Masai from heart disease

Scientists have long been puzzled by how the Masai can avoid cardiovascular disease despite having a diet rich in animal fats. Researchers at Karolinska Institutet believe that their secret is in their regular walking.

There is strong evidence that the high consumption of animal fats increases the risk of developing cardiovascular disease. Many scientists have therefore been surprised that the nomadic Masai of Kenya and Tanzania are seldom afflicted by the disease, despite having a diet that is rich in animal fats and deficient in carbohydrates.

$^&%&*!!

Do these people live in a cave? Sure, exercise is beneficial, but this would seem to be more prima facie that CARBOHYDRATES are bad for you. Hello, didn't they even consider this fact. Someone should send a letter to these "researchers" and throw some "cold water" in their face. Seriously, is there some sort of world-wide conspiracy against the paleo/Mediterranean/ketogenic/Atkins-type diet?

I would like to take a look through all of the "strong evidence" linking fat consumption to heart disease. From my experience, the people (in the west) who eat a lot of animal fat also have a high consumption of carbs and sugars. I wonder how many of these past studies controlled for carb/sugar intake? Anybody know?

The ones I have seen stupidly ignore sugar and high glycemic carbs (sugar in sheeps clothing). Even the rat studies using different fats, high fat %, low fat % and cardiovascular/other diseases stupidly ignore the carb sugar component as well as the fact that once your body goes into ketosis due to very low carb or is in and out of ketosis due to low to med carb + glycemic variables + periods of time without food etc etc. the whole metabolic picture changes (upregulation of the body's natural antioxidant and detoxifying systems, particularly in the mitochondria, just like in CR, there are studies posted in this thread). To me its a no brainer that a high fat, high carb diet is bad, our bodies (and those of all living things) simply have never had time to evolve the ability to deal with such a thing.

[edward]

Regular walking protects the Masai from heart disease

Scientists have long been puzzled by how the Masai can avoid cardiovascular disease despite having a diet rich in animal fats. Researchers at Karolinska Institutet believe that their secret is in their regular walking.

There is strong evidence that the high consumption of animal fats increases the risk of developing cardiovascular disease. Many scientists have therefore been surprised that the nomadic Masai of Kenya and Tanzania are seldom afflicted by the disease, despite having a diet that is rich in animal fats and deficient in carbohydrates.

$^&%&*!!

Do these people live in a cave? Sure, exercise is beneficial, but this would seem to be more prima facie that CARBOHYDRATES are bad for you. Hello, didn't they even consider this fact. Someone should send a letter to these "researchers" and throw some "cold water" in their face. Seriously, is there some sort of world-wide conspiracy against the paleo/Mediterranean/ketogenic/Atkins-type diet?

I would like to take a look through all of the "strong evidence" linking fat consumption to heart disease. From my experience, the people (in the west) who eat a lot of animal fat also have a high consumption of carbs and sugars. I wonder how many of these past studies controlled for carb/sugar intake? Anybody know?

I know that you are half joking (conspiracies don't work on large scales and most are silly rantings of obsessed people) but:

As you mentioned in the "what the world eats" thread, there simply aren't enough of these foods to go around for everyone, and to do this kind of diet right (no hormone, antibiotic free, free range meat, organic vegetables/fruits, raw nuts, etc. etc.) it can be a little costly (though in countries like the US such a diet is probably cheaper then most peoples diets of abundance). From a feeding the world perspective, mass approval of such a diet is not very PC. Furthermore think of all the grain farmers, food manufacturers, even the standard hormone antibiotic feedlot ranchers, etc. thats a lot of people who don't want these types of diets to become the accepted healthy Rx by the establishment.

But take a tour of any hospital and the vast majority of people in there (for things other than infectious disease, orthopedic issues etc.) have type II diabetes or metabolic syndrome along with whatever has brought them to the hospital and is currently threatening their life.

I was so amazed during clinicals last semester at the number of patients I had that were on diabetes meds, astounding really.

Edited by edward, 21 July 2008 - 07:52 PM.

[Mind]

Correct, and I am realistic about what we need to feed the world, and I am being sarcastic about a conspiracy. I think people could cut back somewhat on the carbs/sugar and improve their health without having to pay for all organic or a completely paleo diet.

I am just exasperated by the fact that there is no mention of carbs in the article and their potential role in this finding.

[katzenjammer]

Fascinating discussion!

I've been experimenting with low-carb (no grain or refined carbs; only veggies, berries & meat) for almost six years now in conjunction with HITT/weight training.

Anecdotally, I find that gains - but not maintenance - in mass and high intensity are very difficult without at least some peri-workout simple carbs.

One thing that I have really noticed, however, is the effect of low carb on my libido. Over time my libido declines - but slowly, so I don't really notice it until I up the carbs again. Perhaps its the dopamine response from carbs, but whenever I do a re-feed, my libido shoots through the roof (yeah, literally! )

But I do wonder whether there are any long-term consequences of low-carbing for the endocrine system?

[katzenjammer]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pt=AbstractPlus

1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1976 Jan;42(1):197-200.Links

Effect of caloric restriction and dietary composition of serum T3 and reverse T3 in man.

Spaulding SW, Chopra IJ, Sherwin RS, Lyall SS.

To evaluate the effect of caloric restriction and dietary composition on circulating T3 and rT3 obese subjects were studied after 7-18 days of total fasting and while on randomized hypocaloric diets (800 kcal) in which carbohydrate content was varied to provide from 0 to 100% calories. As anticipated, total fasting resulted in a 53% reduction in serum T3 in association with reciprocal 58% increase in rT3. Subjects receiving the no-carbohydrate hypocaloric diets for two weeks demonstrated a similar 47% decline in serum T3 but there was no significant change in rT3 with time. In contrast, the same subjects receiving isocaloric diets containing at least 50 g of carbohydrate showed no significant changes in either T3 or rT3 concentration. The decline in serum T3 during the no-carbohydrate diet correlated significantly with blood glucose and ketones but there was no correlation with insulin or glucagon. We conclude that dietary carbohydrate is an important regulatory factor in T3 production in man. In contrast, rT3 concentration is not significantly affected by changes in dietary carbohydrate. Our data suggest that the rise in serum rT3 during starvation may be related to more severe caloric restriction than that caused by the 800 kcal diet.

[Moonbeam]

Very interesting thread. I think I know now what my problem with a ketogenic diet has always been--I gave up too soon. I've tried multiple times and given up after one week or so because I didn't think it was going to get any better, and I felt like crap at that point. I did lose my appetite, but I didn't have any energy. Possibly I was eating too much protein and converting too much to glucose too, I suspected that may have been keeping me out of ketosis. I don't know if I'll try again or not, but if I do, I'll try to stick with it longer. I'd really like to experience it once in a good way, getting past that transition period which always defeats me.

Seriously, is there some sort of world-wide conspiracy against the paleo/Mediterranean/ketogenic/Atkins-type diet?

Yes. Read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes.

[frederickson]

Very interesting thread. I think I know now what my problem with a ketogenic diet has always been--I gave up too soon. I've tried multiple times and given up after one week or so because I didn't think it was going to get any better, and I felt like crap at that point. I did lose my appetite, but I didn't have any energy. Possibly I was eating too much protein and converting too much to glucose too, I suspected that may have been keeping me out of ketosis. I don't know if I'll try again or not, but if I do, I'll try to stick with it longer. I'd really like to experience it once in a good way, getting past that transition period which always defeats me.

Seriously, is there some sort of world-wide conspiracy against the paleo/Mediterranean/ketogenic/Atkins-type diet?

Yes. Read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes.

based on your post, i would recommend to increase your fat intake next time you try a keto diet and give it another chance... chances are you will be happy you did if you can stick in there for that first difficult week or so. gets much, much easier in time!

[Moonbeam]

Thanks Fred! I'll try that. I really do want to feel what people describe when they are well into it; Atkins sure seemed to like it (better than sex, I believe he said.)

[Shepard]

Atkins sure seemed to like it (better than sex, I believe he said.)

Okay, now I'm going to lead the anti-Atkins revolution. Here I come, Dr. Ornish.

[niner]

Atkins sure seemed to like it (better than sex, I believe he said.)

Okay, now I'm going to lead the anti-Atkins revolution. Here I come, Dr. Ornish.

Atkins meant better than sex with him.

[Moonbeam]

Atkins meant better than sex with him.

O_o

Well, I'm going to try it anyway. I'm at the end of a week off of work, and of course I fell off the semi-CRON wagon I try to stay on, so I'm going to start tomorrow. I'll concentrate on more fat, and try to keep in mind that it will get better.

[jCole]

I've been on a ketogenic oriented regimen since March.

Combined with proper nutrition, supplementation, cardio & strength training.... I've lost about 53 lb's of pure body fat, while retaining most of my muscle mass. (lots of whey protein and BCAA's & ALA on carb load weekends)


The first two weeks is always hellish, especially if you fall off the wagon, it's harder to get back in for some reason. Mood swings are violent and I'm extremely irritable & aggressive. But this subsides after about a week and is completely gone after two weeks. (not everyone gets these side effects)

Personally, I prefer to use Ketones vs. Glucose as my energy source. My energy level is constant throughout the day, definitely a lot more "pep" and my focus and concentration is substantially better.

After a month of being strict (30 net carbs a day) all craving for sugar or carbs are gone. Now, I crave fresh salads, lean meats and drink my kool-aid sweetened with Stevia as my desert with some Smart balance peanut butter.


The first one-two weeks I try to stay under 30 net carbs to get my body fully switched over and burning and utilizing those ketones. After that I aim for under 50 net carbs a day and it keeps me in ketosis just fine. On training days I go as high as 100 net carbs, but make it a point to always stick to complex carbs and stayyyyy away from sugar as much as I can. (some body builders will load 30g of simple carbs from maltodextrin after weight training.... I found this unnecessary for me)

Sugar seems to knock me out of ketosis extremely easily. Regardless, sugar is the most worthless nutrient anyways and is poison for your body in my opinion.


Also another benefit is I am NEVER hungry. I have to force myself to eat throughout the day. Some days, eating 1500 calories is a severe challenge, so I have to make sure I'm up to spec on all my supplementation and make sure I am eating high quality, high density, nutrient packed foods. I eat salad like no other.

So in a sense, keto is also helping with CRON.


Now I know quite a few people who don't do well on ketosis, but for me, it honestly feels like the perfect regimen for my body. My body just functions better on ketones vs glucose.


Down side would be my strength is noticeably less, vs being glucose loaded. But I compensate through Beta-Alanine & Creatine Monohydrate/Ethyl Ester supplementation.

Also, being ketogenic is NOT the regimen if you're looking to build muscle mass, it's extremely difficult .... being you need glucose for muscle growth/repair and you also need to consume more calories then you burn to build muscle mass. (hard to eat a lot while being ketogenic and weight gainer supps are loaded with carbs)

You can get around this by carb loading on the weekends, which has worked for me, when in a bulking phase, but be prepared to be one moody & pissed off person... constantly. Going in and out of keto every week is extremely rough and I was miserable all the time. (I imagine it's not healthy for you body either, shifting your metabolic pathways back and forth constantly)


All in all, I recommend to anyone and everyone, trying a ketogenic oriented regimen at least once in their life. You may find your body reacts much better to ketones. I feel like superman and leap out of bed every morning.... I maintain my muscle mass extremely easily, while getting that extremely cut, beach body look and easily maintintg it with little effort... I love it.

Edited by jCole, 10 August 2008 - 07:41 PM.

[Moonbeam]

Thanks, jCole. That's a lot of good advice. I've read it several times and I'll keep what you say in mind.

I can hardly build muscle anyway, so that shouldn't be to much of a deterrent for me. But eventually I'll try what you say, with adding back carbs after work-outs.

(P.S. For now I'm using whey after lifting.)

Edited by Moonbeam, 12 August 2008 - 12:36 AM.

[jCole]

Thanks, jCole. That's a lot of good advice. I've read it several times and I'll keep what you say in mind.

I can hardly build muscle anyway, so that shouldn't be to much of a deterrent for me. But eventually I'll try what you say, with adding back carbs after work-outs.

(P.S. For now I'm using whey after lifting.)

I would start off with being strict on carbs for at least a month first, staying under 30 net carbs. Then see how you feel and add post workout carbs as necessary after that. Make sure they are simple carbs, so they are absorbed into the muscle quickly, this should keep you in ketosis if immediately consumed after some strength training. Taking some ALA at the same time will also help with carb absorbtion/effeciency into the muscle.
(if only doing cardio, I would not bother with post workout carbs)
I try to consume about 20-30g's of maltodextrin (powder) added in my protein shake. If that's not available, take a swig of some grape juice and guesstimate around 20-30g's worth.

Everyone is different tho. Some people can't ever go above 20/30 net carbs period without getting kicked out of keto... some have a much higher upper limit. Just play with it and find your tollerance.

You may not gain a lot of muscle mass on a low carb regimen, but if you strength train, you'll still get the benefits of increasing your strength somewhat and toning up your muscles quite a bit. So definitely still worth it IMO.

It's taken me months to figure out what has worked for me, so definitely don't get frustrated if you get kicked out of keto a few times... it'll definitely happen.

[Moonbeam]

It's taken me months to figure out what has worked for me, so definitely don't get frustrated if you get kicked out of keto a few times... it'll definitely happen.

So do you use ketostix (which I have before, and rarely got anything, but I was always drinking a lot of water), or can you just tell by how you feel?

[jCole]

It's taken me months to figure out what has worked for me, so definitely don't get frustrated if you get kicked out of keto a few times... it'll definitely happen.

So do you use ketostix (which I have before, and rarely got anything, but I was always drinking a lot of water), or can you just tell by how you feel?

I have, but I've read they can be unreliable at first. Even if the stix don't show you have ketones in your urine, all that means is you don't have the extra spill over into your blood stream, but you could still be ketogenic. Depends on how efficient your body is at utilizing ketones.

I mainly go off of how I feel and occasioanlly use ketostix as a reference for how effecient I'm burning ketones. (this can help help you adjsut your daily carb intake up and down to find your upper limit)

Great first sign is extreme moodiness and a full/half day of fatigue/brain fog. I believe this is from your insulin going crazy from lack of sugar/carbs and no abunant supply of glucose for your brain to feed off of. After a few days or so you'll all of a sudden feel like you have a ton of energy and feel 10 lb's lighter all of a sudden. Some people report mild euphoria once they hit ketosis.

Some other common side effects is head aches at first, metalic taste in your mouth and really foul breath/body odor/urine. This all subsides for the most part after about a week. Drinking tons of water helps with the side affects a lot. The first week may be hell for you, depending on your bodies addiction to glucose, but stick with it and muscle through it. A lot of cardio helps TREMENDOUSLY during this first week. Not only will you go into keto much much quicker, but it'll help with the side effects.

If you do use ketostix, test first thing in the morning, since the ketones will have a chance to pool up (testing in the middle of the day or evening will throw the results off due to uriinating and flushing your system out throughout the day) and the concetration will be higher.

Go to your local pharmacy and ask for Ketostix, they generally don't have them sitting out ont he shelf for some reason.


Great forum to find all the info you need regarding low carb regimens is here:

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/

or my favorite, since it's oriented around fitness...

http://forum.bodybui...isplay.php?f=61

Edited by jCole, 13 August 2008 - 02:37 PM.

[Moonbeam]

Great first sign is extreme moodiness and a full/half day of fatigue/brain fog. I believe this is from your insulin going crazy from lack of sugar/carbs and no abunant supply of glucose for your brain to feed off of. After a few days or so you'll all of a sudden feel like you have a ton of energy and feel 10 lb's lighter all of a sudden. Some people report mild euphoria once they hit ketosis.

Once when I did it for three weeks, I got into that crappy period, but never out of it. You said to wait at least 30 days, so this time I'm going to wait it out, even if it takes longer than that.

A lot of cardio helps TREMENDOUSLY during this first week. Not only will you go into keto much much quicker, but it'll help with the side effects.

I'm doing some, but not a lot. I'll try to do more, ugh.

Great forum to find all the info you need regarding low carb regimens is here:

Cool, more inspiration, thanks!

I'm doing it this time. Thanks a lot for your help.

[jCole]

Once when I did it for three weeks, I got into that crappy period, but never out of it. You said to wait at least 30 days, so this time I'm going to wait it out, even if it takes longer than that.

There are some people who don't react well with extremely low carbs and have to up it.

Honestly, if after a week you still feel like crap, up your carbs 5 grams then see how you feel and keep upping it until you feel ok. It's definitely not a sin to go above 20 carbs a day... some feel better and lose weight faster at higher carbs while ketogenic. It's all about finding your bodies perfect medium.

Feel free to PM me if you run into any problems.

Edited by jCole, 15 August 2008 - 04:16 PM.

[Moonbeam]

OK, it's been one week and it's going great. I had moderate ketones in the morning two days in a row. Before I've struggled for weeks to just get the faintest pink color that I thought I was probably imagining--this time it changes immediately, and it's unmistably purple.

I just wanted to say what I did differently this time that might have helped:

--I haven't used any artificial sweeteners at all. I'm not trying to make any susbstitute for sweets. I've eaten small amounts of 100% cocoa chocolate (Dagoba brand) twice and one bite of 88% dark chocolate which tasted sweet after the 100%.

--I haven't really counted the carbs, trying to get right up the maximum amount. I'm just only eating the low-carb salad/green type veggies (in addition to eggs, fish, etc. of course) and I actually have to force myself to eat what I think I should be eating.

--I've been eating nuts (raw, mixed) 2-3 oz/day. Usually in the beginning I avoided nuts, but I'm not sure how much carbs you absorb from them anyway.

--Increased fats (over times I've done it previously), avocados/olive oil/some coconut oil.

That may be basic stuff, but something is different this time, and I think it is probably avoiding the artificial sweeteners. I feel fine; decreased appetite; slightly decreased stamina/strength but not the extreme weakness and feeling like I was unable to even move like before. No mood or sleeping problems either.

OK, I won't monopolize this thread anymore, but I wanted to share these observations, since this is such a different experience this time. It's funny how if you're off a little bit with what you are doing, it's so incredibly miserable, but if you get it right, it's fine. I'm actually pretty surprised that it's working, I had sworn never to try this again, but I'm glad I did. I'll report back after while. Thanks again!

Edit: I should add that I usually (try to) follow a paleolithic type semi-CRON diet with fairly frequent falls off the wagon. The week before this I had company and had really degenerated into bad eating for a few days. I added small amounts of raw cheese (in addition to the whey protein) when I started low-carb, but otherwise I'm sticking to paleolithic minus anything with carbs.

Edited by Moonbeam, 18 August 2008 - 12:14 AM.

[Shepard]

That may be basic stuff, but something is different this time, and I think it is probably avoiding the artificial sweeteners.

I've noticed this increasingly over the past couple of years. People that were constantly hungry on diets could suddenly follow intermittent fasting protocols, people that were lethargic on low-carb diets suddenly feel great on them, etc. While nothing like the Atkins craze at the beginning of the century, this has been met with increasing seemingly positive studies published regarding these approaches.

Shepard's take: the mind is powerful.

[Moonbeam]

That may be basic stuff, but something is different this time, and I think it is probably avoiding the artificial sweeteners.

I've noticed this increasingly over the past couple of years. People that were constantly hungry on diets could suddenly follow intermittent fasting protocols, people that were lethargic on low-carb diets suddenly feel great on them, etc. While nothing like the Atkins craze at the beginning of the century, this has been met with increasing seemingly positive studies published regarding these approaches.

Shepard's take: the mind is powerful.

What do you mean? What do you think the cause is? Seriously, I have tried multiple times and it just wasn't working, but I don't think it's mental. I know it probably seems that way, but I really think it's a combination of not using the sweeteners and nothing artificial, like those low-carb bars, no stuff like that. It wasn't really hunger that got me the other times, it was just feeling like I got run over by a truck. None of that this time. I don't know for sure, but I'm glad.

(I'm still feeling great; up to "large ketones" in the AM, still positive in the PM. Lots of energy, workouts fine.)

[jCole]

That may be basic stuff, but something is different this time, and I think it is probably avoiding the artificial sweeteners.

I've noticed this increasingly over the past couple of years. People that were constantly hungry on diets could suddenly follow intermittent fasting protocols, people that were lethargic on low-carb diets suddenly feel great on them, etc. While nothing like the Atkins craze at the beginning of the century, this has been met with increasing seemingly positive studies published regarding these approaches.

Shepard's take: the mind is powerful.

Laying off of artificial sweeteners is a very good idea... artificial sweeteners are notorious for stalling or kicking you out of keto. I can tollerate it, but my EX-GF, diet pop would kick her out if she drank too much. Splenda should be alright tho, but if you get the grainuals, they have about 1 carb per tsp, since they use maltodextrin in the mix, so remember to count those carbs.

Those low carb bars are crap... they use sugar alcohols, which in the old Atkins days, was though that you did not have to count these in your total carb count... companies still cling to this idealogy, but Sugar Alcohols will keep you on the toilet all day and kicks most people out of keto.

Count starches, simple and sugar alcohols in your carb count.

Use liquid Stevia extract in some non sweetened koolaid. Tastes great, natural, 0 cal, 0 carb... Don't use too much tho, or it will taste bitter.

Citric acid has also been known to stall some people, so be mindful of that.


Just monitor your food intake and the ingredients and if you get kicked out of keto without purposely cheatin' on the carbs... review what you've ate the previous day and see if there's something your body doesn't like when in ketosis.


A great site to track your food daily good/nutrional intake and help train you....

http://www.sparkpeople.com

It's free... after a few weeks of tracking everything that goes into your body, you won't even need to use the site and you'll just "know" what to eat and how much from day to day.


:edit:

I see you're into lucid dreaming... I have long tried to become lucid over the years and can never get to the point, all tho I haven't put a lot of effort into it. I may send you some questions regarding this. Could you send me some links to some material I can read regarding this?

Edited by jCole, 22 August 2008 - 02:27 PM.

[malbecman]

Just to play devil's advocate:

What about the social and environmental/ecological costs of everyone eating more meat/protein instead of lower on the food chain? Look what has happened to the prices of many commodities as both China and India are now eating more meat.

Also, don't forget that many environmental pollutants, eg, PCBs, PBDEs, etc, become more concentrated the higher up you go in the food chain. Your ketogenic diet may be increasing your body burden of these chemicals.......
(even organic sources of protein have these pollutants in them. They have even measured PCBs in polar bears and whales now whom have never come in personal contact with these chemicals. They are just ubiquitous now.)



edit: added last sentence

Edited by malbecman, 22 August 2008 - 08:58 PM.