137 replies to this topic

[Athanasios]

You guys might bring up a good point about CR and IF, that it might should be stepped into gradually instead of all at once, which could be a pretty big shock to your system.

Yes, also losing weight really quickly can be damaging to the heart.

[Shepard]

Dude, you've got to shock the system. It's the only way you get anything accomplished.

[eldar]

I would like to suggest those of you who are doing IF to post your calories. It would be interesting to see how much it varies from one person to another.

I've rarely seen any real discussion of how much calories people consume when they are doing IF. I tend to think that the amount of calories would have a very important effect. For example if you are following the 20/4 routine, it would be easy to be doing a form of CR without knowing it, since it isn't that easy to eat e.g. 2200-2500 calories in 4 hours (of course depending on what you eat).

Personally I only started keeping detailed log of my calories after I stopped IF. That was a big mistake that I would not do, if I were to start IF now.

Edited by ceth, 06 May 2008 - 01:23 AM.

[ajnast4r]

how has IF effect your body comp?

[Live Forever]

I would like to suggest those of you who are doing IF to post your calories. It would be interesting to see how much it varies from one person to another.

I've rarely seen any real discussion of how much calories people consume when they are doing IF. I tend to think that the amount of calories would have a very important effect. For example if you are following the 20/4 routine, it would be easy to be doing a form of CR without knowing it, since it isn't that easy to eat e.g. 2200-2500 calories in 4 hours (of course depending on what you eat).

Personally I only started keeping detailed log of my calories after I stopped IF. That was a big mistake that I would not do, if I were to start IF now.

I am terrible at keeping up with stuff like that, which is one of the reasons I do IF instead of CR. (I would never be able to keep a log of everything I ate)

[edward]

Here here, I hate food logs, counting calories etc. but I really do see Ceth's point in that if doing say a 20/4 (warrior diet) version of IF it would be pretty hard to eat 2000 + calories in one sitting.

An update on my diet adventures (side note, my supplement routine is on hold as it is already maxed out and until I get my diet reconfigured, tweaking it will only add more variables, I know that once I settle on something I will need to tweak supplements to be taking during fasting, eating, eating protein/fat and eating carbs, but ill save that for later)...

I am posting both in the Intermittent Fasting Club and the Ketogenic Diet Thread (basically in my case, ideally a hard core version of paleo diet, though not with 100% reliance on buffalo, game meat etc.) with http://www.imminst.o...o...=20768&st=0

I really think a combination of a Paleo Ketogenic Low Carb diet and Intermittent Fasting is the way to go.

Only I got so lean on a keto/paleo diet eating cart loads of meat and fat (non starch veggies too) and there were some other effects that werent all that great see the thread. But by an large the results were pretty good, but if I tried to throw more then the occasional fast well I would just waste away, yes I retained muscle surprisingly well but I have found that perhaps there is such a thing a too low a body fat percentage.

So I tried intermittent fasting for awhile but my body didnt tolerate carbs in the day time very well (can we say nappy time).

So I am back to low carb as my brain over all seems to like that better. My next experiment will be with yes I am eating my own words here on the logic of the Warrior Diet (I read the book this weekend and though alot of it really annoyed me there were some good points). So I am taking components of the Warrior Diet schedule of Intermittent Fasting with a primarily Paleo Food Selection but with Pre Workout Carbs on SOME Days and Post Workout Glycogen Loading on SOME days as well as Glycogen Depleting, inspired by Lyle McDonald's books the Ketogenic Diet and the Ultimate Diet 2.0 (also read this weekend) yes I read fast... Maybe I will write a book on the result.

My goals:

Be able to gain muscle and not gain fat (there isn't really any fat left to lose so that is not a goal)
Get benefits of CR through IF + supplements
Eat Lots of Meat, Vegetables, Nuts and Non Starchy Fruits (paleo)
Uses Starchy Fruits, Kefir/Yogurt and Oatmeal (the least offensive and only grain I will eat) for my periodic carb up/workout purposes
Be mentally alert as on keto but have more endurance and explosive power (high intensity training) like while eating carbs
Though I am more mentally alert on keto my memory is not as good (perhaps this is catecholamines)

Thoughts comments suggestions?

[dsbuffa]

I would like to suggest those of you who are doing IF to post your calories. It would be interesting to see how much it varies from one person to another.

I am trying to talk myself into do a food diary for my one hour of eating. You wouldn't think it would be that hard, but I hate measuring food. I do a very large salad from the salad bar at the hospital.... no dressing just red wine vinegar. Then I have a bowl of homemade soup or chili. I also have 15 almonds and a banana. I don't have a clue what the calorie content is, but you have convinced me to try to figure that question out. Oh and I can not forget my lite beer. Which I only get when I go out for my nightly run. LOL

[eldar]

I would like to suggest those of you who are doing IF to post your calories. It would be interesting to see how much it varies from one person to another.

I am trying to talk myself into do a food diary for my one hour of eating. You wouldn't think it would be that hard, but I hate measuring food. I do a very large salad from the salad bar at the hospital.... no dressing just red wine vinegar. Then I have a bowl of homemade soup or chili. I also have 15 almonds and a banana. I don't have a clue what the calorie content is, but you have convinced me to try to figure that question out. Oh and I can not forget my lite beer. Which I only get when I go out for my nightly run. LOL

I too used to find it hard to calculate everything and try to get the right amounts, but now I basically eat the same thing every day so it takes almost no time to do anymore. Weighing food also becomes a routine when you get used to it.
Plus when you do it long enough with different foods, you can somewhat approximate the calorie content even if you eat out and can't use the scale.

I really would recommend for everyone doing IF to at least count their calories for one week and average that out, so you have some kind of an idea where you are regarding calories. It really shouldn't be that hard and the benefits far outweigh the small time spent doing it.

Edited by ceth, 09 May 2008 - 01:25 PM.

[dsbuffa]

I need to pick a week and maybe plan my food so that weighing it is easy to count calories. In my head bringing my salad home and separating it to weigh it seems like a pain. Now if I got it in my head I would just go and buy the veggies weigh them.... cut them up and eat them. LOL Life would probably be easy and it would start me on the path to knowing what my calorie count was for the day.

[Matt]

I thought those interested in IF might want to check out my post here. It's about somehow who has done one meal per day for long time... and quite famous. Photo provided too.
http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=238303

Edited by Matt, 10 May 2008 - 10:40 PM.

[VictorBjoerk]

Well it maybe could be some useful data on the topic based on the islamic fasting tradition...

[forever freedom]

So does IF increases max lifespan as effectively as CR or not? Look here


I heard that it does increase max lifespan from some and others say that only CR increases it. What a mess. I guess no one really knows.

[Live Forever]

So does IF increases max lifespan as effectively as CR or not? Look here


I heard that it does increase max lifespan from some and others say that only CR increases it. What a mess. I guess no one really knows.

From the blog post you linked to:

As we saw in the Keys semi-starvation study, caloric restriction isn’t much fun for humans, and it apparently isn’t all that much fun for the animals undergoing it either. When rats live out their ratty lives calorically restricted in their cages, they seem to show signs of depression and irritability. Primates do as well. If primates don’t get enough cholesterol, they can actually become violent. But they do live longer. Even though CR has never been proven in humans, based on lab animal experience it does work. So, if you’re willing to put up with irritability, hostility and depression, it might be worth cutting your calories by 30 percent for the rest of your long, healthy miserable life.

Eeek, that doesn't sound pleasant at all. No wonder so many CR people get irritable when you mention IF, haha. (kidding!)

[lucid]

Here is an update on me:
I have been keeping a health journal since starting IF (2x34 hours / week).
My weight has been 230-235 for about a year. Before that, my weight was 240-245. My journal starts on 4/17/08 where my weight is 225. I have kept my a log of my weight for almost every day and recorded all exercise since then. By 5/04/08 my weight was down to 218. (Keeping all existing muscle, I would probably like to be around 210, with more muscle I would like 220)

The past 2 weeks I have had a rough go of fasting; I haven't made even one of my 34 hour fasts (until today); all of my attempts 2x a week busted around 18 hours. My lady friend kept bringing food around, and I had stopped doing aerobic exercise for a couple weeks which I think was hurting my self-control. I have really found that there is a feedback component to IF. Doing it improves mental health and self control, however when feeling down and lazy, IF is very difficult to do.

My present weight is 218. I'm going to have a before and after blood panel in a couple of months, and I took some BP readings early on, but have been too lazy to take them everyday.

Right now, my health program is pretty simple: IF, Meditation, Cocoa, Exercise. I have more or less stopped my supplements but I'll resume in not too long.

[Shepard]

Did anyone consider adjusting for the faster metabolism in mice? (as most IF studies were performed in mice)
If necessary that is, which I cannot say for sure. Then 1 day would equal to ~20days of fasting.
Anyone doing CR on/off (thus maintaining weight), would this be closer to IF or CR per se?

Thankfully, there have been some studies on Ramadan that showed certain changes.

[edward]

A couple of negative IF studies, well the first is negative the second is partially negative.
http://www.sciencedi...471ead89189416a
http://www.ajcn.org/...stract/85/4/981

These coupled with my own negative reaction to IF with carbs (fine while fasting but when eating all I wanted to do was eat and sleep... maybe thats what humans were suppose to do eat, sleep and store fat to be burned during the next fasting period, makes sense if you come upon an orchard of fruit trees, honey tree or a valley of berries.... stuff yourself to store as much energy as possible... sleep to maximize the storing... because who knows when such luck will come again).

So for me truly IFing (every other day) is on hold as there is no way I am going to IF every other day on low carb. For now I follow my low carb paleo keto diet and fast once a week. I do think IF has a benefit, I don't think the benefit is big enough for me to consume carbs during the eat period though.

[Shepard]

You can always follow an IF-program while staying low carb. Ketosis makes it pretty easy from an appetite standpoint.

[william7]

I wonder how many black Muslims followed the one meal every 24 hours advocated by Elijah Muhammad in his book How to Eat to Live? The book was published back in the 1960s. See http://en.wikipedia...._to_Eat_to_Live.

[edward]

You can always follow an IF-program while staying low carb. Ketosis makes it pretty easy from an appetite standpoint.

Yes but I would waste away to nothing. I definitely could do it easier than carbing up but I don't think I'd have a chance at keeping weight on.

[Shepard]

Yes but I would waste away to nothing. I definitely could do it easier than carbing up but I don't think I'd have a chance at keeping weight on.

Bah, needs more heavy cream.

[lucid]

A couple of negative IF studies, well the first is negative the second is partially negative.
http://www.sciencedi...471ead89189416a
http://www.ajcn.org/...stract/85/4/981

These coupled with my own negative reaction to IF with carbs (fine while fasting but when eating all I wanted to do was eat and sleep... maybe thats what humans were suppose to do eat, sleep and store fat to be burned during the next fasting period, makes sense if you come upon an orchard of fruit trees, honey tree or a valley of berries.... stuff yourself to store as much energy as possible... sleep to maximize the storing... because who knows when such luck will come again).

So for me truly IFing (every other day) is on hold as there is no way I am going to IF every other day on low carb. For now I follow my low carb paleo keto diet and fast once a week. I do think IF has a benefit, I don't think the benefit is big enough for me to consume carbs during the eat period though.

The first study is about consuming 1 or 3 meals per day. The meal is also 4 hours long. Hence they go: 4 hour eat -> 20 hour fast, 4 hour eat -> 20 hour fast. This is certainly different than IF where the eating period is 24 hours and the Fasting period is longer too.

The second study found that:

Subjects who completed the study maintained their body weight within 2 kg of their initial weight throughout the 6-mo period. There were no significant effects of meal frequency on heart rate, body temperature, or most of the blood variables measured. However, when consuming 1 meal/d, subjects had a significant increase in hunger; a significant modification of body composition, including reductions in fat mass; significant increases in blood pressure and in total, LDL-, and HDL-cholesterol concentrations; and a significant decrease in concentrations of cortisol.

Again 1 meal per day isn't IF, but it may be relavent. the above study made an allusion to "a diet with lower meal frequency" extending lifespan in laboratory animals. I hope that they weren't talking about IF studies where as those were 24 on and 24 off, which to me seems very different than 20 on 4 off.
While my IF has been very spotty recently due to vacations and then an ungodly number of minor illnesses (most of which I blame on living in a cess pit that is called a fraternity house), I did have my blood pressure measured a week ago which was off the charts, But it was just one reading when I wasn't following IF very well.

[eldar]

A couple of negative IF studies, well the first is negative the second is partially negative.
http://www.sciencedi...471ead89189416a
http://www.ajcn.org/...stract/85/4/981

These coupled with my own negative reaction to IF with carbs (fine while fasting but when eating all I wanted to do was eat and sleep... maybe thats what humans were suppose to do eat, sleep and store fat to be burned during the next fasting period, makes sense if you come upon an orchard of fruit trees, honey tree or a valley of berries.... stuff yourself to store as much energy as possible... sleep to maximize the storing... because who knows when such luck will come again).

So for me truly IFing (every other day) is on hold as there is no way I am going to IF every other day on low carb. For now I follow my low carb paleo keto diet and fast once a week. I do think IF has a benefit, I don't think the benefit is big enough for me to consume carbs during the eat period though.

The first study is about consuming 1 or 3 meals per day. The meal is also 4 hours long. Hence they go: 4 hour eat -> 20 hour fast, 4 hour eat -> 20 hour fast. This is certainly different than IF where the eating period is 24 hours and the Fasting period is longer too.

The second study found that:

Subjects who completed the study maintained their body weight within 2 kg of their initial weight throughout the 6-mo period. There were no significant effects of meal frequency on heart rate, body temperature, or most of the blood variables measured. However, when consuming 1 meal/d, subjects had a significant increase in hunger; a significant modification of body composition, including reductions in fat mass; significant increases in blood pressure and in total, LDL-, and HDL-cholesterol concentrations; and a significant decrease in concentrations of cortisol.

Again 1 meal per day isn't IF, but it may be relavent. the above study made an allusion to "a diet with lower meal frequency" extending lifespan in laboratory animals. I hope that they weren't talking about IF studies where as those were 24 on and 24 off, which to me seems very different than 20 on 4 off.
While my IF has been very spotty recently due to vacations and then an ungodly number of minor illnesses (most of which I blame on living in a cess pit that is called a fraternity house), I did have my blood pressure measured a week ago which was off the charts, But it was just one reading when I wasn't following IF very well.

4 hour eat -> 20 hour fast is still very much IF and regarded as such. But I agree that there might be differences between the two different IF schedules.

[edward]

Yeah I definitely think a 4 hour eat and 20 hour fast is very much IF and many people practice this. The problem I see is that possibly consuming 2000 ish calories in 4 hours may not be good for your body, thus a 24 eat (of course interupted by sleep) and a 24 hr fast may be more feasible and might yield better results. Furthermore for me the 20 hr. fast and 4 hr eat would turn into CR as its pretty darn hard to consume the minimum of 2000-3000 calories I need in 4 hrs using Healthy nutrient dense food especially if I stick to low carb.

[lucid]

The problem I see is that possibly consuming 2000 ish calories in 4 hours may not be good for your body, thus a 24 eat (of course interupted by sleep) and a 24 hr fast may be more feasible and might yield better results.

Yes I appear to have mispoken.
Yeah, I think that consuming all of the calories in about 15% of the time frame would make a big difference. (4 hours vs 24 hours) Also, the 4 hour decrease in the fasting time could be pretty significant depending on what metabolic schedule CR mechanisms turn on. (Someone here probably knows more about that process)
Oh well. Thanks for the correction.

Edited by lucid, 09 June 2008 - 06:34 PM.

[edward]

Anyone have any trouble sleeping while fasting? This is one big problem with the 24 fast 24 eat (actually the "eat" is interrupted by 8 hours of sleep so technically its an 8 hr eat 8 hr sleep 8hr eat or some variation say 6 8 10 or whatever) Anyway the big problem I have is sleeping while fasting. I get so energized while fasting (sometimes it can border on nervous anxious energy) that sleeping is very hard. This is one of the big pluses of the "warrior" 20-4 schedule, its much easier to sleep after pigging out... though again the 4 hr. pig out followed by sleep is the main issue I have with it... mmm... Maybe a small salad with no dressing (or a fiber drink) during fasting nights would be reasonable to give the illusion of fullness and help with sleep.

Anyone else have this issue, sleeping after fasting for awhile?

note: I already take a "sleeping stack" which includes melatonin and ambien and even that is often ineffective if fasting... I resorted to phenibut last week in desperation (see the sleep stack thread) bad idea definitely not going to do that again. Lol I should have just broken my fast but no I had to learn a lesson.

oh, by the way (yeah I talk too much) there is some good IF conversation on this thread for those who don't drift over to the Resveratrol section http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry244381

Edited by edward, 09 June 2008 - 09:52 PM.

[dsbuffa]

Anyone else have this issue, sleeping after fasting for awhile?

When I was doing the 20 to 23 hour fast and the 4 to 1 hour feeding window I ate at night. So no issues with sleeping with that schedule, but I have changed over to 36 hour fast followed by a 12 hour eating window. I am loving this 12 hour eating window. LOL I just finished my second 36 hour fast and I did have trouble getting to sleep.... my brain was wired, but I am hoping that after my body gets use to the change it will work it's self out.

Dyan

Edited by dsbuffa, 09 June 2008 - 10:11 PM.

[VictorBjoerk]

What kinds of effects could you expect from bingeing food one week and water-fasting the other. How would that affect body composition when doing it for months or years?

[Live Forever]

What kinds of effects could you expect from bingeing food one week and water-fasting the other. How would that affect body composition when doing it for months or years?

I have not heard of a version of IF where people do a week on, week off. (and certainly, "bingeing" is not encouraged on any IF that I am aware of) I have no idea of the effects if someone were to undertake such a way of life.

Edited by Live Forever, 10 June 2008 - 05:26 AM.

[edward]

Are you talking water fast for the entire week every other week? Thats a bit extreme. I've heard of people doing prolonged fasts every once and awhile though I don't personally think its such a great idea. I once (about a year ago) did a 5 day water fast just to see the effects, after day 3 hunger went away but after day 4 I was pretty darn weak, added some salt to my water and took some potassium tablets which helped, by day 5 I had had enough. I didn't realize any discernible health benefits from the experience, it was interesting from a psychological and physiological standpoint, observing how the mind and body react. I don't think I will ever do it again though.