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Orthomolecular regimens


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Poll: Orthomolecular (36 member(s) have cast votes)

How do you feel about orthomolecular regimens?

  1. I've tried an OM regimen and noticed a remarkable improvement (4 votes [10.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.53%

  2. I've tried an OM regimen and noticed a modest improvement (6 votes [15.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.79%

  3. I've tried an OM regimen and noticed no difference (1 votes [2.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  4. I've tried an OM regimen and my condition got worse. (1 votes [2.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  5. I have not tried an OM regimen, but I believe in OM medicine (8 votes [21.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.05%

  6. I have not tried an OM regimen, and do not believe in OM medicine (3 votes [7.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.89%

  7. I have not tried an OM regimen and am ambivalent about OM medicine (5 votes [13.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.16%

  8. I do not know little to nothing about orthomolecular medicine (10 votes [26.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.32%

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#1 StrangeAeons

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 05:29 AM


EDIT: I should probably specify, in light of there being a corporation named "American Orthomolecular Research" in particular vogue on these forums, that I specifically am referring to an orthomolecular-physician supervised regimen with bloodwork in my poll.

The short version: I want to know what you think of orthomolecular medicine, and your rationale. If anybody has any experiences, pretty please post them :)

The long version:
OK, so today I went to an orthomolecular psychiatrist for longstanding mood issues that have not responded to normal psychiatric treatment. I was contemplating various medical options of a less conventional manner, most prominently MAOI's. When I met the doc I was not entirely sure what to think of him. He was somewhat eccentric, and highly energetic, moving around the whole time, emphatically showing me graphs of metabolic pathways and talking about neurotransmitters, inflammatory processes, methylation, and amino acids. The gist is that he has a firm background in biochemistry in believes a great deal more in identifying metabolic imbalances through bloodwork than he does in the normal pharmocopeia of psychotropic drugs. He essentially expressed this as correcting the root cause as opposed to trying to mask a symptom of it. From what I gather from my online readings, this is rather typical of the orthomolecular movement.

For right now, he simply directed that I take Metagenics probiotics (again, I'm skeptical of the advantage of Metagenics over store brands) and ordered a pretty vast array of bloodwork including DHEA, thyroid hormones, testosterone, B and D vitamins, cortisol, etc.
He said he won't "stab blindly" and start a regimen without bloodwork.

After spending years trying psychiatric meds to no avail, I am endlessly frustrated with the idea of seeking help and at the best getting something ineffective. Having followed up a bit on the nature of most of the drugs out there, it is very clear that a true pathophysiology for mental illness is still rather tentative, and that the currently prescribed drugs are at best temperizing measures. There's a reason psychiatric protocols are more or less "guess and check". Although my idea was to move on to more aggressive or experimental medication, I am mulling over the significance of actually identifying metabolic defects and correcting them. In a way it seems too good to be true.
It's especially interesting that he seems to be the only doctor that ever though it was significant that my problems got far worse after leaving the hospital for introcolisis and a peptic ulcer (supposedly all caused by H. pylori). He also seems to be the only medical profession who showed some level of outrage at my being prescribed antipsychotics, and seemed to believe they could be as damning as I thought. Likewise he said that my prolactin levels should probably go down during this regimen.
Allegedly, at the end of the regimen, the doctor said that once the regimen corrects everything and things fall back into place that the brain releases a "protein that makes more neurons grow". After leaving it occurred to me that he was talking about BDNF (brain derived neurotrophic factor). This would, of course, be awesome if it were true.

Edited by PetaKiaRose, 08 January 2009 - 05:31 AM.


#2 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 04:05 PM

The reliance on bloodwork is a good sign -- quack physicians don't like that sort of objective mainstream testing, they'll do energetic testing, muscle testing, and similar unproven diagnostics. I'd give him a chance and see what happens.

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#3 mitkat

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 09:31 PM

I voted for "I have not tried an OM regimen, but I believe in OM medicine". Everything I've read I like a lot, my GP didn't know much about it (and I consider her very knowledgeable otherwise), and I can forsee myself looking into it more seriously in the future. As Funk said, doing objective, empirical tests is a great sign that your doctor has very good intentions and isn't in favour of just throwing supps/aminos/whatever at a problem without having as much info as possible. As for the doctor being energetic and a bit quirky it doesn't suprise me that this kind of medicine would draw that kind of person. Not a bad thing IMHO :p

edit: Also AOR stands for Advanced Orthomolecular Research from Calgary, Alberta, Canada ;)

Edited by mitkat, 08 January 2009 - 09:34 PM.


#4 StrangeAeons

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 01:31 AM

edit: Also AOR stands for Advanced Orthomolecular Research from Calgary, Alberta, Canada ;)


Thanks for the reassurance guys, it appears that the OM regimen is looking more and more like the apex of what we try to do here with supplements. As per the correction, mitkat, I'm sure as a Canadian you appreciate just how egocentric we Americans are. I stand corrected, and I thank my brilliant brothers to the north for their research.

Edited by PetaKiaRose, 09 January 2009 - 01:32 AM.


#5 ajnast4r

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 04:49 PM

it would be good if you kept a log of your progress here... id be interested to see how this works out for you.

#6 StrangeAeons

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 01:53 AM

Okay, I'll bother scanning in the pages and pages of lab results later, but here's the abnormalities on my labs:
(WNL=within normal limits)
Catecholamines from fractionated plasma are WNL, Dopamine too low to be quantified.
Histidine is slightly elevated (Histamine is normal)
3-Methylhistidine is slightly deficient.
Citric acid is slightly deficient.
Glycine is slightly elevated.
Total carnitine is slightly deficient; carnitine esters are slightly deficient; free carnitine is WNL, on the lower end. The esterified/free ratio is WNL, on the lower end.
B5 is deficient, though not quantified to say how much (all other B-vits are WNL).
Vit. D 25 OH is slightly deficient (19ng/mL), with all of it being D3; D2 is below detectable levels.
T3 is just shy of elevated, T4 is WNL, TSH is WNL.
I saved the best for last:
Ferritin is severely deficient, as is serum iron. Unsat. iron-binding and TIBC are elevated. Iron saturation is 5% (Ref: 7-70) This was about a month ago; on Wendesday my hemoglobin was 12.9 just before I gave blood (Min. Hgb for donation is 12.5)

NOTE: The lab screwed up and gave ref. ranges for a female. If you know of anything besides iron listed here where that would matter, let me know.

I couldn't help myself and had to run out to CVS to try taking 325mg Ferrous Sulfate and 2000IU D3. I don't think it'll do anything in the short run, and I see the doc on Monday so he'll help me tweak my regimen appropriately. Let me know what you guys think of these labs.

Edited by PetaKiaRose, 07 February 2009 - 01:55 AM.


#7 Kutta

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 02:10 PM

19 ng/ml 25OHD is IMO a rather serious deficiency. Just make sure you pop several thousand IUs of D3. Along with it I also strongly recommend 3-5 mg MK-4, 50-100mcg MK-7, 500-2000IU retinol and 400-500 mg of a balanced tocopherol complex since they seem to balance out each other. Get at leats 1 gram C too. Don't think there is any reason not to take these.

Don't how your "orthomolecular" regimen looks like but IMO there's not much room for scepticism or worries. IMO better to take 10-20 times smaller doses than NOAEL than to take 1,5 times greater doses than severe deficiency. You'd want to reduce the possibilites of cofactor bottlenecks (much like with magnesium); I think the terms "orthomolecular" and "megadosing" are a bit too fancy and misleading.

#8 kismet

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 02:16 PM

Vit. D 25 OH is slightly deficient (19ng/mL), with all of it being D3; D2 is below detectable levels.

Slightly? Your vitamin D is about half of what would be considered optimal. Even going by a cautious interpretation of the epidemiologic data. You need >30ng/mL as per Dr. Holick and ~50ng/mL as per Dr. Cannell. Vitamin D lab ranges are complete bogus.

Look there for the graph (taken from a very recent study on vit D and mortality) and some discussion:
http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=27368

Kutta, any reason for that amount of vitamin C? The highest I've seen supported by solid evidence is ~260mg of supplemental vitamin C (but I haven't looked very hard).

Edited by kismet, 07 February 2009 - 02:19 PM.


#9 Kutta

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 08:01 PM

Kutta, any reason for that amount of vitamin C? The highest I've seen supported by solid evidence is ~260mg of supplemental vitamin C (but I haven't looked very hard).


Because nowadays the majority of C supps come in 1000mg tabs.

Being a bit more serious, I must admit that I haven't really looked up any study, It's just a lowest common denominator of a lot of other people's opinions...

Note that Imminst users' average supplementary C intake is above 1 g: http://www.imminst.o...?showtopic=8796 I think that makes a rather good point.

#10 StrangeAeons

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 05:32 PM

I go in to see the doc tomorrow, so we'll see what he has to say about all these labs; I'll scan everything in and post the corresponding treatments and rationale. I appreciate your input on everything, and it's good to know the D is actually very deficient; from what I understand it plays a pretty big role in calcification of the arteries, so getting it corrected at a young age is crucial.
I think it's kind of curious nobody has anything to say about the iron. Given my absence of anemia, I imagine we can rule out occult bleeding but it's hard to say for sure. If it's some kind of malabsorption then I may need to get an endoscopy, and possibly a marrow sample.

I would also really appreciate, now that several people have voted about taking the regimens, what their experiences were.
Thanks.

#11 niner

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 04:21 AM

If it's some kind of malabsorption then I may need to get an endoscopy, and possibly a marrow sample.

PKR, do you have an evidence of Celiac disease? I presume that would be the point of the endoscopy. I'll say this about your labs; it's kind of good news really, since once you get it sorted out you will just about have to be feeling better. It does look like you are on the trail of something here.

#12 StrangeAeons

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 05:27 AM

The doc decided not to scope, just work on the malabsorption through supplements and then scope if there's no improvement and/or the labs don't look right; given that I've been symptomatic of mood disorders, have minimal inflammation (C-Reactive Protein 0.1) and have a history of GI problems, it seems like we more or less have this pinned down. I'm posting the doc's regimen here, and I know it stands for some tweaking but it seems like a pretty good start:

Here's what I'm already on:
Metagenics Ultra Flora Plus DF Probiotics 1 cap twice daily (this is to counter abdominal inflammation and help absorption)
Hemagenics Iron 1 tab 3x daily (duh)
Vitamin D3 5000IU once daily (likewise duh)
Metagenics EPA/DHA extra strength 1 cap twice daily (duh, though for separate reasons)

Now we add 1 new supplement every 2-7 days based on how well it's tolerated:
--Glutamine 3g daily (proliferates small intestinal cells)
--Alpha Base Multivitamin 3 caps 2x daily (this is just to get the bases covered, I suppose; I may switch to OrthoCore or something similar with CustomCapsule)
--Magnesium Glycinate 200mgs at night (evidently this was low; and Mag is generally a good idea for neuro stuff)
--Reacted Zinc 54mgs a day (ditto)
--Reacted Calcium 500mgs at lunch (to balance out the Mag, I presume)
--Methionine 500mgs (due to evidence of undermethylation)
--Pantothenic acid 500mgs 2x daily (again, it appears I am deficient)

And hopefully this means by some point in March I should be feeling rather chipper, and have completely abandoned the desperation that led me to ask for MAOI's. Fingers crossed (I haven't voted yet for this reason).
EDIT: niner, AFAIK I tolerate gluten and dairy pretty well.

Edited by PetaKiaRose, 10 February 2009 - 05:28 AM.


#13 zoolander

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 07:47 AM

PetaKiaRose,

First of all congrats mate for taking charge. You're moving in the right direction. IMO, any change or loss in quality of life is worth investigating and correcting. Just a word of caution though. In taking ownership of your health I recommend you also take ownership in the information that you read and are given. Please check up on it as a lot of information in these forums is given very loosely without sound justification (eg. "Because nowadays the majority of C supps come in 1000mg tabs......I must admit that I haven't really looked up any study"). Whilst vitamin C is water soluble and generally non-toxic the above statement is a reflection of how relaxed some can be often giving advice without understanding the possible consequences. here-->by the same poster

19 ng/ml 25OHD is IMO a rather serious deficiency. Just make sure you pop several thousand IUs of D3. Along with it I also strongly recommend 3-5 mg MK-4, 50-100mcg MK-7, 500-2000IU retinol and 400-500 mg of a balanced tocopherol complex since they seem to balance out each other. Get at leats 1 gram C too. Don't think there is any reason not to take these.


Not thinking there is any reason you shouldn't take something is a dangerous stance that is assumed when someone hasn't even bothered to look into it. For one, 400-500mg of vitamin E is a fairly large dose and if you happened to be currently taking fish oil and aspirin (or any other blood thinners) at the moment it would increase your risk of a hemorragic stroke.

The safest approach in my opinion is to give recommendations as follows:
I recommend that you take "x" (insert reference) because it will help you with "X" (insert reference).

Personally I would demand that this be the minimum. These are the standard I set myself and these are the standards I push for here because it is too much of a risk to allow 'unknowns' with 'unknown qualifications' to tinker with your health.

Unsat. iron-binding and TIBC are elevated. Iron saturation is 5% (Ref: 7-70) This was about a month ago; on Wendesday my hemoglobin was 12.9 just before I gave blood (Min. Hgb for donation is 12.5)


Re. your iron levels.....first and foremost attempt to correct this by increasing the iron in diet. iron absorption is very important. iron is absorbed best in an acid environment and away from chelaters. Vitamin C (in acid form) is great for increasing iron absorption because it increases acidity.

TIBC would be elevated as this changes in line with the bodies demand for iron. If your iron levels are low TIBC will increase to try and bind every little bit of iron as a counter mechanism. if iron levels are up you usually see TIBC go down. It's a straight forward negative feedback scenario. Speak to your orthomolecular practiioner about this. If he gives you any recommendation then demand that he retest your iron levels (for free) in a month as justification for his approach. It's fair that you ask them to provide the retest for free because it's based on their recommendation.

to finish.....keep a keen eye out for the following:

Practitioner recommends a particular product and just happens to have a large supply on hand for sale.

Whilst the practioner may sell these products because they have faith in them as good products it is a conflict of interest for someone to be looking after your health whilst at the same time pushing the bottom line (i.e profit) forward. Take their advice but don't buy their goods and see how they respond. Buy the goods somewhere else but do your research. this is why medicine and pharmacy are often keep seperate. A doctor can prescribe a drug but they cannot sell it to you off their shelf. You have to go to a pharmacy to buy it. Visa versa. You cannot be prescribed something at a pharmacy. You have to go to the doctor. The seperation between the doctor and the pharmacist is a very import one that protects your wellbeing.

Once again, well done and congrats.

#14 Michael

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 07:13 PM

The reliance on bloodwork is a good sign -- quack physicians don't like that sort of objective mainstream testing, they'll do energetic testing, muscle testing, and similar unproven diagnostics. I'd give him a chance and see what happens.

If you're an MD (which orthomolecular docs are, by definition), it's just as easy to do quack bloodwork: insert quack diagnosis into mainstream test, or perform non-evidence based test.

Ghost hunters use camcorders, infrared light illuminators, audio recorders, digital cameras, electromagnetic field (EMF) detectors and thermometers to look for evidence of paranormal activity or to find scientific explanations for strange occurrences people report.

"But not one ghost has ever been authenticated by science, not one," said Nickell, who has conducted paranormal investigations for TV shows broadcast on The History and National Geographic channels. "They're trying to use the respect of science -- hey, look at this fancy equipment -- to justify their superstitious beliefs.

"If they get a reading on their EMF meter," said Nickell, "or they get a picture of an orb on their camera -- and because they don't know what's causing that -- they say, 'Therefore it must be a ghost.' This is a logical fallacy. ... They're ghost buffs, they're enthusiasts, and yes, they read stuff off the Internet, but they're not trained. You don't want people just reading the occasional medical article and going to practice medicine."

Cf half the fancy tests available from Genova Diagnostics/Great Smokies Diagnostic Laboratories ; cf also the widespread use of serum levels of vitamin and minerals to diagnose nutritional status (deficiency/sufficiency), when they're almost uniformly useless for such purposes:

"There is no biomarker for calcium that can indicate calcium status; instead, an indication of status is suggested from the total dietary intake. "

http://books.google....z5K2sEpkr3wyq4k

"There is no single measure that sensitively and specifically reflects copper status. Copper status measures have been discussed extensively (IOM, 2001), and no standard has yet been agreed on."

http://books.google....02gJJR#PPA86,M1

"Evaluating the possible effects of marginal [Zn] deficiencies is difficult since sensitive biochemical criteria for detecting marginal zinc status have not been established. Changes in serum zinc are insensitive and may reflect a temporary redistribution of body pools ... Plasma zinc consequently provides only an insensitive index of zinc status. Although knowledge of the numerous biochemical and molecular roles of zinc has been developed extensively, mechanistic explanations for the nutritional functions revealed by severe zinc deficiency ... have not been established conclusively. ... [E]stablished functional or biochemical markers for the nutritional adequacy of zinc do not exist."

http://books.google....2gJJR#PPA156,M1

[I should add that I know from separate research, mostly in obscure papers albeit in respectable journals, that there is significant evidence of a rough, empirical, threshold test using the ability to taste a defined concentration of zinc in solution: people who are frankly deficient can't taste it -MR]

"There is no parameter of selenium status that reflects both medium-term (days to weeks) selenium intake and metabolic function. Therefore, the clinical assessment of selenium status has relied on ... blood selenium [for the former and] GPX-3 [glutathione peroxidase for the latter] ... Each parameter has significant limitations. ... [However, based on analysis of cinical trials,] the plasma and serum level of 80µ/L would appear to be a useful criterion of nutritional adequacy."

http://books.google....2gJJR#PPA145,M1

[I was somewhat surprised by their hesitancy on this, spelled out in preceding paragraphs; I actually thought GPx activity was quite solid in this regard -MR]

Moreover, even tho' there ARE good assays for most of the vitamins, very few labs or 'alternative' docs actually use them! Eg, in many cases they will test for thiamin status using serum or plasma levels, which are an acute marker and give no FUNCTIONAL information; transketolase and others are much better markers of functional status, tho' even those don't really tell you about the long-term picture unless you're really chronically screwed up.

-Michael

Edited by Michael, 10 February 2009 - 07:28 PM.
Adding book citations on nutrient serum levels


#15 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 07:29 PM

If you're an MD (which orthomolecular docs are, by definition), it's just as easy to do quack bloodwork: insert quack diagnosis into mainstream test, or perform non-evidence based test.


I suppose that is true.

About glutamine, I never saw any improvement in digestive health with 3-4g of glutamine (this is roughly what you would get from an average serving of whey protein, in other words, not a significant amount compared to your normal dietary intake). Only at 5 grams 3x daily (15g) have I have seen dramatic improvement in gut health.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 10 February 2009 - 07:30 PM.


#16 nowayout

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 08:46 PM

Kutta, any reason for that amount of vitamin C? The highest I've seen supported by solid evidence is ~260mg of supplemental vitamin C (but I haven't looked very hard).


Because nowadays the majority of C supps come in 1000mg tabs.

Being a bit more serious, I must admit that I haven't really looked up any study, It's just a lowest common denominator of a lot of other people's opinions...

Note that Imminst users' average supplementary C intake is above 1 g: http://www.imminst.o...?showtopic=8796 I think that makes a rather good point.


The point may just be that the average poll respondent there did not do his homework.

There is little or no evidence that so much vitamin C is good for you. Also, under certain circumstances megadosing Vitamin C and other antioxidants may be harmful. See the post http://www.imminst.o...se antioxidants. As for vitamin C itself, see for example,

Am J Clin Nutr. 2008 Jan;87(1):142-9.

Oral administration of vitamin C decreases muscle mitochondrial biogenesis and hampers training-induced adaptations in endurance performance.

Gomez-Cabrera MC, Domenech E, Romagnoli M, Arduini A, Borras C, Pallardo FV, Sastre J, Viña J.
Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Valencia, Valencia, Spain.

BACKGROUND: Exercise practitioners often take vitamin C supplements because intense muscular contractile activity can result in oxidative stress, as indicated by altered muscle and blood glutathione concentrations and increases in protein, DNA, and lipid peroxidation. There is, however, considerable debate regarding the beneficial health effects of vitamin C supplementation. OBJECTIVE: This study was designed to study the effect of vitamin C on training efficiency in rats and in humans. DESIGN: The human study was double-blind and randomized. Fourteen men (27-36 y old) were trained for 8 wk. Five of the men were supplemented daily with an oral dose of 1 g vitamin C. In the animal study, 24 male Wistar rats were exercised under 2 different protocols for 3 and 6 wk. Twelve of the rats were treated with a daily dose of vitamin C (0.24 mg/cm2 body surface area). RESULTS: The administration of vitamin C significantly (P=0.014) hampered endurance capacity. The adverse effects of vitamin C may result from its capacity to reduce the exercise-induced expression of key transcription factors involved in mitochondrial biogenesis. These factors are peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor co-activator 1, nuclear respiratory factor 1, and mitochondrial transcription factor A. Vitamin C also prevented the exercise-induced expression of cytochrome C (a marker of mitochondrial content) and of the antioxidant enzymes superoxide dismutase and glutathione peroxidase. CONCLUSION: Vitamin C supplementation decreases training efficiency because it prevents some cellular adaptations to exercise.

PMID: 18175748 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

and also

Biochemistry of Aging Laboratory, Center for Exercice Science, College of Human Performance, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611, USA.

There has been no investigation to determine if the widely used over-the-counter, water-soluble antioxidants vitamin C and N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) could act as pro-oxidants in humans during inflammatory conditions. We induced an acute-phase inflammatory response by an eccentric arm muscle injury. The inflammation was characterized by edema, swelling, pain, and increases in plasma inflammatory indicators, myeloperoxidase and interleukin-6. Immediately following the injury, subjects consumed a placebo or vitamin C (12.5 mg/kg body weight) and NAC (10 mg/kg body weight) for 7 d. The resulting muscle injury caused increased levels of serum bleomycin-detectable iron and the amount of iron was higher in the vitamin C and NAC group. The concentrations of lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), creatine kinase (CK), and myoglobin were significantly elevated 2, 3, and 4 d postinjury and returned to baseline levels by day 7. In addition, LDH and CK activities were elevated to a greater extent in the vitamin C and NAC group. Levels of markers for oxidative stress (lipid hydroperoxides and 8-iso prostaglandin F2alpha; 8-Iso-PGF2alpha) and antioxidant enzyme activities were also elevated post-injury. The subjects receiving vitamin C and NAC had higher levels of lipid hydroperoxides and 8-Iso-PGF2alpha 2 d after the exercise. This acute human inflammatory model strongly suggests that vitamin C and NAC supplementation immediately post-injury, transiently increases tissue damage and oxidative stress.

PMID: 11557312 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



#17 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 09:04 PM

The point may just be that the average poll respondent there did not do his homework.


Have you done your homework? There are 2374 studies on Vitamin C supplementation in pubmed, have you read all of them? Because there is alot of information that does support higher intakes, and ALOT of contradictory information that provides room for a variety of different and yet potentially valid opinions on this topic. For example, you cite a study demonstrating increased oxidative stress with Vitamin C supplementation after exercise? Then I'll cite another study showing reduced oxidative stress with Vitamin C supplementation + exercise:

Obesity (Silver Spring). 2006 Dec;14(12):2224-35.Click here to read Links
Antioxidant supplementation lowers exercise-induced oxidative stress in young overweight adults.
Vincent HK, Bourguignon CM, Vincent KR, Weltman AL, Bryant M, Taylor AG.

Center for the Study of Complementary and Alternative Therapies, University of Virginia Health System, Charlottesville, VA 22908-0905, USA. hvincent@adelphia.net

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether antioxidant (AOX) supplementation attenuates post-exercise oxidative stress and contributors to oxidative stress (inflammation, blood lipids) in overweight young adults. RESEARCH METHODS AND PROCEDURES: This was a randomized, double-blind, controlled study. Overweight (BMI, 33.2 +/- 1.9 kg/m(2)) and comparative normal-weight (BMI, 21.9 +/- 0.5 kg/m(2)) adults 18 to 30 years old (total N = 48) were enrolled. Participants received either daily antioxidant (AOX) treatment (800 IU of vitamin E, 500 mg of vitamin C, 10 mg of beta-carotene) or placebo (PL) for 8 weeks for a total of four groups. All participants completed a standardized 30-minute cycle exercise bout at baseline and 8 weeks. Exercise-induced changes in lipid hydroperoxide (DeltaPEROX), C-reactive protein (DeltaCRP), interleukin-6 (DeltaIL-6), cholesterol subfractions, triglycerides, total AOX status (DeltaTAS), and adiponectin were assessed. RESULTS: Exercise-induced DeltaPEROX was lower in the overweight-AOX group (0.09 nM/kg per min) compared with PL-treated overweight and normal-weight groups (0.98, 0.53 nM/kg per min) by 8 weeks (p < 0.05). Adiponectin was increased in both overweight and normal-weight AOX groups (22.1% vs. 3.1%; p < 0.05) but reduced in PL groups. DeltaIL-6, Deltatotal cholesterol, and Deltalow-density lipoprotein-cholesterol concentrations during exercise were lower in the AOX-treated groups compared with PL groups (all p < 0.05). After controlling for BMI, the Deltatotal cholesterol, Deltalow-density lipoprotein-cholesterol, Deltaadiponectin, and DeltaTAS explained 59.1% of the variance of the regression model of the DeltaPEROX by 8 weeks (total model R(2) = 0.600; p = 0.015). DISCUSSION: AOX lowers exercise-induced oxidative stress in overweight adults. Inflammatory and lipid markers may also be attenuated with AOX. Further studies are needed to determine whether AOX may be used in cardiovascular disease prevention in the overweight population.


My point is that we are so far from a "last word" ** on what constitutes optimal vitamin C intake, it isn't even funny. And then when you introduce the endless combinations of individual biochemistry and unique nutritional requirements resulting from disease states, there's no single position we couldn't shoot full of holes in a heartbeat.


**Actually a study comparing intake of 3g daily of Vitamin C w/ placebo demonstrated increased frequency of sexual intercourse for the Vitamin C group. I bet a large number of readers would accept that as the "last word" on Vitamin C intake based on those results alone! ;)

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 10 February 2009 - 09:15 PM.


#18 neogenic

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 09:32 PM

IV Vitamin C would be nice over the GI route.

#19 nowayout

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 12:39 AM

The point may just be that the average poll respondent there did not do his homework.


Have you done your homework? There are 2374 studies on Vitamin C supplementation in pubmed, have you read all of them? Because there is alot of information that does support higher intakes, and ALOT of contradictory information that provides room for a variety of different and yet potentially valid opinions on this topic. For example, you cite a study demonstrating increased oxidative stress with Vitamin C supplementation after exercise? Then I'll cite another study showing reduced oxidative stress with Vitamin C supplementation + exercise:


The study you cite is completely incomparable to at least the first of the studies I cited. It was based on supplementing both vitamins C and E, vitamin C was only at 500 mg, rather less than the 1g that has been thrown around here, there were only two bouts of exercise (this does not qualify as training) and the conclusion is for obese individuals. Also, it is becoming clearer that oxidative stress is in fact necessary for certain beneficial exercise adaptations, so showing that vitamin C reduces that in obese people is not necessarily a positive thing.

Also, you claim that there is a lot of information supporting higher intakes. When you say this, I assume that you mean these studies have included dose-ranging to determine that a higher intake was better than a lower intake for a specific outcome. I would be very interested if you don't mind listing some of these many dose ranging studies that you have seen.

My point is that we are so far from a "last word" ** on what constitutes optimal vitamin C intake, it isn't even funny.


Point taken. But then, isn't recommending particular large dosages a little irresponsible? My homework has taught me to be cautious. What has yours taught you?

Edited by andre, 11 February 2009 - 12:50 AM.


#20 StrangeAeons

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 12:59 AM

Michael, I am sincerely grateful for highlighting these inadequacies; these things are by and large of concern, but the main deficiencies I am concerned about are iron (which I have a ferritin value for) and Vitamin D (which we have the 25OH for). From everything I can gather these are fairly reliable tests, though if you or anyone else has reason to believe these are not valid, I would appreciate the input. It's good to know that some of the other tests are irrelevant; the mineral supplementaion, however doesn't worry me because it is cheap and because I am not megadosing on them. Regardless of B-vitamin status, there seems to be evidence to the benefit of high doses, especially thiamine. So all in all I may have been ripped off for some extraneous labs, but it appears that this doctor has discovered something others wouldn't bother checking, and for this I am grateful;
Still, when it comes to questioning the validity of OM medicine as a whole (which this thread is nominally about) it does detract a good deal from their credibility; as I see it, the field insists on standing off in complementary medicine, and if its leaders ever choose to try and integrate their methods into standard practice they would start cleaning up their act; but there is some valid treatment in it that you would not get through a conventional doctor (and decidedly not a conventional psychiatrist), this much I have become convinced of.
FunkO, good to know about the glutamine; I'll start low and ramp it up to see if my gut feels better. Though all in all my GI health right now seems variable but not too bad, the iron supplementation is starting to kick in so I should have some gauge of how smoothly things are going in my alimentary canal. BTW, do you know of any advantage to micronized glutamine? I got suckered into it just because I felt like getting "the best", but given my recent amazement at the labs I've gone a little slap happy with the spending.
As per the C, I suppose if somebody could direct me to a source of parenteral vit. C I could give myself some infusions (I'm trained in this stuff) but that would almost be more for the fun of it than for the benefit. Given the relative cheapness of C and it's wide host of potential benefits, I would like to see somebody show me at what point ascorbate has the potential for toxicity. It's kind of ironic so much of the discussion comes back to vitamin C. This is what got the brilliant Linus Pauling, founder of the orthomolecular movement, so estranged from mainstream science.

#21 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 02:36 AM

Also, you claim that there is a lot of information supporting higher intakes. When you say this, I assume that you mean these studies have included dose-ranging to determine that a higher intake was better than a lower intake for a specific outcome. I would be very interested if you don't mind listing some of these many dose ranging studies that you have seen.


High supplemental intakes of Vitamin C reduce CHD:

Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Dec;80(6):1508-20.

Antioxidant vitamins and coronary heart disease risk: a pooled analysis of 9 cohorts.

Knekt P, Ritz J, Pereira MA, O'Reilly EJ, Augustsson K, Fraser GE, Goldbourt U, Heitmann BL, Hallmans G, Liu S, Pietinen P, Spiegelman D, Stevens J, Virtamo J, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Ascherio A.

National Public Health Institute, Helsinki, Finland. paul.knekt@ktl.fi

BACKGROUND: Epidemiologic studies have suggested a lower risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) at higher intakes of fruit, vegetables, and whole grain. Whether this association is due to antioxidant vitamins or some other factors remains unclear. OBJECTIVE: We studied the relation between the intake of antioxidant vitamins and CHD risk. DESIGN: A cohort study pooling 9 prospective studies that included information on intakes of vitamin E, carotenoids, and vitamin C and that met specific criteria was carried out. During a 10-y follow-up, 4647 major incident CHD events occurred in 293 172 subjects who were free of CHD at baseline. RESULTS: Dietary intake of antioxidant vitamins was only weakly related to a reduced CHD risk after adjustment for potential nondietary and dietary confounding factors. Compared with subjects in the lowest dietary intake quintiles for vitamins E and C, those in the highest intake quintiles had relative risks of CHD incidence of 0.84 (95% CI: 0.71, 1.00; P=0.17) and 1.23 (1.04, 1.45; P=0.07), respectively, and the relative risks for subjects in the highest intake quintiles for the various carotenoids varied from 0.90 to 0.99. Subjects with higher supplemental vitamin C intake had a lower CHD incidence. Compared with subjects who did not take supplemental vitamin C, those who took >700 mg supplemental vitamin C/d had a relative risk of CHD incidence of 0.75 (0.60, 0.93; P for trend <0.001). Supplemental vitamin E intake was not significantly related to reduced CHD risk. CONCLUSIONS: The results suggest a reduced incidence of major CHD events at high supplemental vitamin C intakes. The risk reductions at high vitamin E or carotenoid intakes appear small.


1000mg of Vitamin C reduces blood lead levels, while 200mg and placebo have no effect:

J Am Coll Nutr. 1999 Apr;18(2):166-70.

The effect of ascorbic acid supplementation on the blood lead levels of smokers.

Dawson EB, Evans DR, Harris WA, Teter MC, McGanity WJ.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynecology, the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, 77555-0587, USA.

BACKGROUND: The study subjects were 75 adult men (20 to 30 years of age), who smoked one pack of cigarettes per day (minimum) and had no clinical signs of ascorbic acid deficiency or lead toxicity. None had a history of industrial exposure to lead, and the blood-lead levels were anticipated to be below 1.45 micromol/L, the minimum blood level associated with toxicity symptoms. METHODS: The men were randomly assigned to three study groups of 25, and each group was provided a four-week supply of one level of daily ascorbic acid supplements (placebo, 200 mg or 1000 mg of ascorbic acid). We measured baseline and weekly serum and urine ascorbic-acid levels as well as blood and urine lead levels. The weekly group means and variations of the measured data were statistically compared by means of ANOVA and Pearson's correlation. RESULTS: The serum ascorbic-acid levels of the groups receiving ascorbic acid increased significantly after one week (p< or =.001). There was no effect of placebo or 200 mg ascorbic-acid supplementation on the blood or urine lead levels. However, there was a 81% decrease in blood-lead levels in the 1000 mg ascorbic acid group after one week of supplementation (p< or =.001). CONCLUSIONS: Daily supplementation with 1000 mg of ascorbic acid results in a significant decrease of blood-lead levels associated with the general population. Ascorbic acid supplementation may provide an economical and convenient method of reducing blood-lead levels, possibly by reducing the intestinal absorption of lead.


This study defines Vitamin C supplementation as 400mg/day and demonstrates CHD protective effect of this level of supplementation:

J Am Coll Cardiol. 2003 Jul 16;42(2):246-52.
Related Articles, Links
Click here to read
Comment in:

* J Am Coll Cardiol. 2003 Jul 16;42(2):253-5.


Vitamin C and risk of coronary heart disease in women.

Osganian SK, Stampfer MJ, Rimm E, Spiegelman D, Hu FB, Manson JE, Willett WC.

Department of Medicine, Children's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts, USA. stavroula.osganian@TCH.harvard.edu

OBJECTIVES: Our objective was to prospectively examine the relation between vitamin C intake and risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) in women. BACKGROUND: Results from prospective investigations of the relation between vitamin C intake and risk of CHD have been inconsistent. The lack of clear evidence for a protective association despite a plausible mechanism indicates the need to evaluate further the association between vitamin C intake and risk of CHD. METHODS: In 1980, 85,118 female nurses completed a detailed semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaire that assessed their consumption of vitamin C and other nutrients. Nurses were followed up for 16 years for the development of incident CHD (nonfatal myocardial infarction and fatal CHD). RESULTS: During 16 years of follow-up (1,240,566 person-years), we identified 1,356 incident cases of CHD. After adjustment for age, smoking, and a variety of other coronary risk factors, we observed a modest significant inverse association between total intake of vitamin C and risk of CHD (relative risk [RR] = 0.73; 95% confidence interval [CI] 0.57 to 0.94). Among women who did not use vitamin C supplements or multivitamins, the association between intake of vitamin C from diet alone and incidence of CHD was weak and not significant (RR = 0.86; 95% CI 0.59 to 1.26). In multivariate models adjusting for age, smoking, and a variety of other coronary risk factors, vitamin C supplement use was associated with a significantly lower risk of CHD (RR = 0.72; 95% CI 0.61 to 0.86). CONCLUSIONS: Users of vitamin C supplements appear to be at lower risk for CHD.

Publication Types:

* Research Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S.


PMID: 12875759


Point taken. But then, isn't recommending particular large dosages a little irresponsible? My homework has taught me to be cautious. What has yours taught you?


That there are no responsible recommendations. Doses of certain substances we think are optimal will turn out to be too high and cause disease. Doses of other substances we think are optimal will turn out to be too low -- higher doses would have prevented disease. Almost everything we think we know about medicine and supplements and diet will evolve and change to the point our current practices in all these areas will seem retarded to future generations. My discomfort with this basic truth is one of the reasons I will rather become a pharmacist than a doctor.

#22 nowayout

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 11:45 AM

That there are no responsible recommendations. Doses of certain substances we think are optimal will turn out to be too high and cause disease. Doses of other substances we think are optimal will turn out to be too low -- higher doses would have prevented disease. Almost everything we think we know about medicine and supplements and diet will evolve and change to the point our current practices in all these areas will seem retarded to future generations.


I agree 100%.

As an aside, I must say that I personally have stopped believing in the kind of observational studies that you quoted. There is just no way of extracting honest information from them, never mind distinguishing between association and causation. I once interviewed for a job at the Harvard School of Public Health that was related to statistically analyzing precisely the results from these kinds of large-scale cohort studies (vitamin E, toxin exposure, etc.). The head scientist very proudly showed me a graph of observational data that they were working on at the time that looked something like this:

.   . .   . . .   . .  . .   . . .   . . . . .    .   . .   . .   . .  .   . .   .   . .   . .   .   . . .   . .   .  . .   . . .   . .   . .   . .   .   . .   . .   .   . .   . .   . . .  .  . .   .   . .   .

Which their fancy program then interpreted as a straight-line proportionality relationship like this.

.   . .   . . . / . .  . .   . . .  /  . . . .  .   . .   / .   . .  .   . .   /   . .   . .   .   . / .   . .   .  . .   / . .   . .   . .  . /   .   . .   . .   . / . .   . .   . . ./ .  . .   .   . .   .

TADA!!!! Vitamin E prevents heart attacks! (for example) ;)

I turned down the job offer.

Edited by andre, 11 February 2009 - 11:47 AM.


#23 kismet

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 12:46 PM

Hilarious graph!
I don't think all observational studies are bad, if several large-scale prospective observational trials arrive at the same conclusion, I think that's pretty solid, albeit not final, evidence.

My point is that we are so far from a "last word" ** on what constitutes optimal vitamin C intake, it isn't even funny.


Point taken. But then, isn't recommending particular large dosages a little irresponsible? My homework has taught me to be cautious. What has yours taught you?

If we don't know the optimal dose, shouldn't we stick to the most conservative one?

#24 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 03:53 PM

The amount I give to my most dearly loved person is 500mg daily in two divided doses. That is what I recommend to a 100% healthy person when I must give a "responsible recommendation". I personally take much more but I have unique health concerns and I like to live dangerously. ;)

#25 Michael

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 04:23 PM

Also, you claim that there is a lot of information supporting higher intakes. When you say this, I assume that you mean these studies have included dose-ranging to determine that a higher intake was better than a lower intake for a specific outcome. I would be very interested if you don't mind listing some of these many dose ranging studies that you have seen.


High supplemental intakes of Vitamin C reduce CHD:

Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Dec;80(6):1508-20.
Antioxidant vitamins and coronary heart disease risk: a pooled analysis of 9 cohorts.
Knekt P, Ritz J, Pereira MA, O'Reilly EJ, Augustsson K, Fraser GE, Goldbourt U, Heitmann BL, Hallmans G, Liu S, Pietinen P, Spiegelman D, Stevens J, Virtamo J, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Ascherio A.


This study defines Vitamin C supplementation as 400mg/day and demonstrates CHD protective effect of this level of supplementation:

J Am Coll Cardiol. 2003 Jul 16;42(2):246-52.
Vitamin C and risk of coronary heart disease in women.
Osganian SK, Stampfer MJ, Rimm E, Spiegelman D, Hu FB, Manson JE, Willett WC.
PMID: 12875759


Both of these, however, are prospective epidemiological studies -- a good study design, to be sure, but still leaving much confounding. The controlled clinical trials have uniformly found no benefit to high-dose vitamin C intake (or any other supplement tested thus far, except for the mixed results on selenium).

Yes, yes, there are any number of critiques of these trials; a few of them are even reasonable! The question, however, is: where is the BETTER evidence -- real evidence, not wild extrapolation based on The Free Radical Theory Of Aging ™ or short-term, single-variable reports, or what have you -- that these compounds are actually BENEFICIAL for normal, healthy people? The simple answer is that there isn't any. The trials -- flawed as they are -- are the best evidence available; anyone doing supra-RDA dosing of just about anything but vitamin D is, at this point, engaged in a a faith-based experiment with hir own health in contravention to the balance of evidence, and anyone still selling such without incredibly elaborate disclosure of known and potential risk is either an ignoramus or a cynical profiteer of the sort that makes Pfizer's and Lilly's recent off-label marketing practices look like a model of good corporate citizenship.

The prospective epidemiology justified the trials, and made a reasonable case for supplementation; the trials massively refute the epidemiology, and make it completely unreasonable for healthy people to keep taking the stuff.

1000mg of Vitamin C reduces blood lead levels, while 200mg and placebo have no effect:

J Am Coll Nutr. 1999 Apr;18(2):166-70.
The effect of ascorbic acid supplementation on the blood lead levels of smokers.
Dawson EB, Evans DR, Harris WA, Teter MC, McGanity WJ.

... in smokers, "possibly by reducing the intestinal absorption of lead" (meaning you would have to take this much at each meal to renew the effect). If you're an adult in the developed world (ie, a generation after the banning of leaded gasoline), eating a healthy diet with good calcium intake (a very powerful inhibitor of Pb absorption), and don't live in an old house with leaded paint, chew on kiddie toys, or drink from leaded crystal or ceramics of uncertain origin, your lead intake and absorption are likely very low. Since there is no evident impact on mortality, I don't think that this is worthwhile for most.

Point taken. But then, isn't recommending particular large dosages a little irresponsible? My homework has taught me to be cautious. What has yours taught you?


That there are no responsible recommendations. Doses of certain substances we think are optimal will turn out to be too high and cause disease. Doses of other substances we think are optimal will turn out to be too low -- higher doses would have prevented disease. Almost everything we think we know about medicine and supplements and diet will evolve and change to the point our current practices in all these areas will seem retarded to future generations. My discomfort with this basic truth is one of the reasons I will rather become a pharmacist than a doctor.

Responsible guidance is evidence-based guidance based on what we know today, with perhaps a little speculative wiggle-room -- not the power to see into the future. "Go," "No go," "Wait for more evidence," and "Suit yourself" can all be reasonable guidance, depending on the state of the evidence. We now have strong evidence that supra-RDA C, alpha-tocopherol, standard B vitamin, and selenium supplements are of no benefit to either normal, healthy people, or smokers (the smoking-cancer trials) or people at high risk of heart disease (most of the rest); "Don't take this stuff, unless you personally are in an unusual group" is extremely reasonable guidance in the winter of 2009.

-Michael

#26 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 05:25 PM

Responsible guidance is evidence-based guidance based on what we know today, with perhaps a little speculative wiggle-room -- not the power to see into the future. "Go," "No go," "Wait for more evidence," and "Suit yourself" can all be reasonable guidance, depending on the state of the evidence. We now have strong evidence that supra-RDA C, alpha-tocopherol, standard B vitamin, and selenium supplements are of no benefit to either normal, healthy people, or smokers (the smoking-cancer trials) or people at high risk of heart disease (most of the rest); "Don't take this stuff, unless you personally are in an unusual group" is extremely reasonable guidance in the winter of 2009.


My point is that even you, the great Michael, are taking or not taking supplements and doses that you will learn twenty years from now were not optimal for your health. Of course, we want to make the best decisions we can with the best available evidence in the present day, that is obvious. However, the word "responsible" as the dictionary defines it means accountability. Are you willing to be held accountable for the lives lost because of your past recommendations that seemed reasonable based on the best available evidence at that time?

If the answer is no, then you cannot make "responsible recommendations".

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 11 February 2009 - 05:27 PM.


#27 StrangeAeons

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 10:30 PM

Alrighty, so the "Alpha Base" multivitamins from Orthomolecular appears inferior to AOR OrthoCore; though I can't make that call for sure. One thing I'm worried about is that I've been given 5000IU Vitamin D and the Alpha Base only has K1; so I've ordered LEF's Super K which has MK-4 and MK-7. From what I can see, this is pretty crucial when doing a high dose vitamin D regimen.
Does anybody have anything to say about this malabsorption theory; it seems to be a pretty pervasive diagnosis and basis for treatment in this field. The doctor was suspiciously vague when I asked what the etiology of this type of malabsorption was, saying essentially "D, all of the above". I'm also beginning to second guess his decision to not do an endoscopy; though this may be less comfortable for the patient, I think it would be better to use a more definitive diagnostic tool before starting on such a heavy regimen.
He also pointed me towards this book which appears to be essentially the same type of regimen, but using questionnaires instead of bloodwork. Anybody have any opinions of Dr. Hyman they'd like to share?
I'd really like to get some solid critique of what's going on here, it's very tough trying to separate the truth from the B.S. in this field.

#28 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 08:51 AM

Peta, I seriously recommend going to enterolab.com for a test for celiac disease if you have absorption problems and GI problems. I was in constant pain for ten years before I figured this out and removed the gluten (plus other stuff I am intolerant to, I bought all the tests). Funny thing, before I cut the gluten I got cavities all the time. Like thirty by the time I was 19. Since I've been gluten free, not one, even though fillings have fallen out. The celiac disease can cause many malabsorption problems, in my case going as far as what seemed to change the composition of my saliva.

Also, would you say there is sufficient evidence to supplement magnesium? Seems hard to get in the diet unless you eat spinach all the time.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 14 February 2009 - 08:54 AM.


#29 StrangeAeons

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 10:40 PM

Alright, three weeks into the regimen; I've been completely faithful and I feel like crap. I'm now an all of the supplements listed above.
The doctor's office told me to "stay the course" because it's not a "quick fix". I was having some GI issues earlier but I'm more or less over it. I've been taking a higher dose of glutamine, ~5g 2-3x daily. I really don't believe I have celiac, and though my GI system isn't perfect it's by and large been tamer than what it was when I was hospitalized so many years ago. I've been trying Activia over the last few days, mixing my glutamine in and thus far I feel like it might be helping.
I've also switched from the Hemagenics, which contains all sorts of stuff in it, to plain old iron bis-glycinate. Much cheaper. I'm also adding Jarrow's methylcobalamin 1000mcg, taken every two or three days. That should pretty much make up for the huge doses of cyanocobalamin in the Hemagenics.

I'm still very much having doubts over the legitimacy of this whole thing. I can understand a paradoxical phase during the initial part of an antidepressant regimen, because the meds are manipulating normal physiological processes; the therapeutic effect is supposedly not from the initial neurotransmitter boost or inhibition, but from a more complex physiological response to said modulation.
If this is the case, and this regimen is supposedly correcting an out and out deficiency, then why would there be such a response? Obviously this whole thing is not nearly as straightforward as the cute flowcharts of metabolic pathways my doctor wants me to take complete faith in. Obviously some of the supplements I'm taking are in doses that will act more like drugs, so the question then becomes are we "correcting imbalances" or merely using drugs by another name?

To further confound things, I have even less faith in this sulfation and methylation. The over/under methylator thing just strikes me as flat-out snake oil. The literature he handed me on the topic is blatantly unscientific, and I really can't find much in the way of literature to support it. I'm a little tired of this pattern, because I've had to deal with even worse bullshit from conventional psychiatrists; it's rather taxing because I'm not all that capable of intensive research at this point in my life. It's also emotionally taxing to constantly be let down this way when I desperately need help. This is why I'm seeing a psychiatrist.
The doc also recently told me to eat more broccoli and cauliflower because it would "get rid of the sulfates". Mind you this is through his assistant over the phone. Again, the impaired sulfation thing is a little hard to follow. Broccoli contains sulfates, no? I have trouble understanding the physiological role of sulfation; in addition what little data I saw insinuated the broccoli played a role in the colon, in which case it has precisely shit to do with anything metabolic (yes, that was a pun).
Please, I just can't hack the science right now. I'm a smart kid, but I don't have it in me at this point. I'd like some feedback on these concepts.

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#30 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 10:58 PM

I have even less faith in this sulfation and methylation. The over/under methylator thing just strikes me as flat-out snake oil.


Same here.

Activia and glutamine are legitimate supplements that can fix gut problems, perhaps not your specific problems, but they are no snake oil. What else are taking again?




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