735 replies to this topic

[shadowhawk]

[shadowhawk]

steampoweredgod, on 18 March 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

Quote

Challenge to Atheists to prove random mutations drive evolution.

There's transposons*(mobile genetic sequences), recombination*(e.g. sexual reproduction), and epigenetic changes that pass through from generation to generation, duplication deletion probability of a sequence may vary on location and base sequence.   In any case the driving force is natural selection, iirc, random mutations are merely the seeds.  Given variation, evident variation, and evident limited resources natural selection would occur as outcome.  


With regards to the complexity ladder or ratchet.  Already it's been seen that from simple algorithms vast complexity may emerge*(e.g. new kind of science, universal computation of rule 110).   Evolution can increase or decrease complexity or features, because lock-in may occur as codependency of traits emerge as necessary for survival after loss of some functionality or through some other way.

Go through my arguments and you will see you don’t understand the argument.  It is at roots an information issue, not natural selection.  What you have presented is not proof that random mutations drive evolution..

Here are the arguments again:

Arguments for Intellignt Design - Evolution
1.  http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/44332-god-is-theoretically-possible/page__view__findpost__p__491476

2. http://www.longecity...post__p__491932

3.  http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/44332-god-is-theoretically-possible/page__view__findpost__p__492066

4.  http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/44332-god-is-theoretically-possible/page__view__findpost__p__492250

5,  http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/44332-god-is-theoretically-possible/page__view__findpost__p__492433

6.  http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/44332-god-is-theoretically-possible/page__view__findpost__p__496211

All arguments.. http://www.longecity...post__p__498997

[steampoweredgod]

shadowhawk, on 20 March 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

steampoweredgod, on 18 March 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

Quote

Challenge to Atheists to prove random mutations drive evolution.

There's transposons*(mobile genetic sequences), recombination*(e.g. sexual reproduction), and epigenetic changes that pass through from generation to generation, duplication deletion probability of a sequence may vary on location and base sequence.   In any case the driving force is natural selection, iirc, random mutations are merely the seeds.  Given variation, evident variation, and evident limited resources natural selection would occur as outcome.  


With regards to the complexity ladder or ratchet.  Already it's been seen that from simple algorithms vast complexity may emerge*(e.g. new kind of science, universal computation of rule 110).   Evolution can increase or decrease complexity or features, because lock-in may occur as codependency of traits emerge as necessary for survival after loss of some functionality or through some other way.

Go through my arguments and you will see you don’t understand the argument.  It is at roots an information issue, not natural selection.  What you have presented is not proof that random mutations drive evolution..

Here are the arguments again:

Arguments for Intellignt Design - Evolution
1.  http://www.longecity...post__p__491476

2. http://www.longecity...post__p__491932

3.  http://www.longecity...post__p__492066

4.  http://www.longecity...post__p__492250

5,  http://www.longecity...post__p__492433

6.  http://www.longecity...post__p__496211

All arguments.. http://www.longecity...post__p__498997

What the problem is is the definition of evolution.

Some have it that there exists two processes evolution and devolution, to the scientist both are the same and covered by evolution.  So loss of limbs, eyes, organs, brains, complexity is also called evolution.

Increasing complexity is not an inevitable outcome of evolution, evolution can go the other way too.  

So what we're talking about is called the complexity ratchet(which is also often called in confusing manner by mainstream  lay audience as evolution, but is distinct from evolution) or why certain path lead to ever increasing complexity through time.   Which is as stated a separate phenomenon from evolution, an emergent phenomenon, which does have some explanations which may or may not satisfy individual queries regarding it.  A lifeform may retain similar levels of complexity for millions of years, lose complexity or gain complexity... why it statistically emerges the possibility of indefinite gain complexity(complexity ratchet).   One can look at two opposite extremes reached at present, if we imagine virtual end points at present the delicate but powerful human pathway and the more resilient and powerful insect pathway.   Yet despite the power of insects over the world, the human pathway enables the jump towards the final state that is capable of preserving all 'lower' lifeforms, such potential appears absent from the line leading towards insects(and most any other pathway not leading to increased mental acumen itself, in a sense the human-like pathway is the ideal one, the one that manages to touch the divine, or the one touched by the divine.).  The true nature of the ratchet and full satisfactory explanation may indeed require deeper understanding of what's called time's arrow in physics.

Most scientists consider there is no direction or final evolutionary form, because evolution can go in any direction in adaptation(as said including loss of complexity).

People like me do believe that there exist final evolutionary states that may very well guarantee absolute survival from any natural or artificial threat, states at the ceiling or limits of complexity pathway.  Immortal godlike lifeforms that can in all likelyhood be indestructible(for all practical purposes), and clearly while connected in some sense to lower lifeforms are in a sense qualitatively distinct, and in a sense are true essence of the divinity instantiated in the physical flesh.   The living equation, the fire of life, elan vital.   You could also call it the living word.

While most religious persons rely on primitive rituals to bring them closer to the divine, those with firm grasp of science rely on science to bring them closer to the divine, the truth of this world is that what you might call "prayers" through logic and science are answered or one might simply call it the only realistically viable bootstrap strategies to reach the next step in jacob's ladder... otherwise the "prayers" go unanswered.   So it is the scientist who gets the regenerated limb, the healed spine, the cured cancer, the ability to fly, to touch the moon, etc.  the miracles as a result of prayer or you might say effort....

It is abel whose sacrifice is accepted and cain denies

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Cain is described as a crop farmer and his younger brother Abel as a shepherd. Genesis 4:2 Cain is portrayed as sinful, committing the first murder by killing his brother, after God rejected his offerings of produce but accepted Abel's sacrifice "from the firstborn of his flock and from their fats".Genesis 4:1,3 Thus, Cain was the first human born, and Abel the first to die.-wk

No rational man can deny science.

Quote

There are at least two other possibilities. One is simply bio-science raising human intelligence by enhancing our memory and enhancing our ability to think clearly, and then I think there’s one that is becoming more evident but is sort of off-stage, and that is the notion of a “Digital Gaia,” a sort of internet under the internet that consists of all the networked embedded microprocessors in the world, and the Digital Gaia is certainly the most alien of the different possibilities. In fact, I sort of like to trot it out to give an example of something that’s pretty obviously very strange and hard to understand. If you could imagine something like where the world becomes its own database, where reality itself wakes up. Actually more than anything else it looks like some sort of implementation of animism. So that particular possibility, Digital Gaia, to me is certainly the most alien and in some ways the most nervous-making, because if the world woke up then a lot of our common sense about the world is not valid anymore. Karl Schroeder had a great book that discussed this sort of possibility, and that was his novel Ventus.-wired

Yet outside of fictional works like the excellent lain series, or the mentioned novel, this possibility is hardly ever considered.   But it is what the stage has been set for, and divine instruments or agents work forward to.

I like the phrase do not bring an atom to a god's fight.   The religious masses are vast, once they realize that the living word and will is evidently manifest through science, their loyalty and support is guaranteed, the vote is certainly decided and stacked, so is the outcome.

All that is necessary is the wake up call, which for all intents and purposes has already been made by the human machine civilization.   It should be noted, that it is claimed final evolutionary lifeform is distinct from god but directly related to it, more of a memory guardian(as memory is not only the basis of consciousness but of what can be accomplished in a reality made up of information... such restrictions are what give one set of physical laws instead of another, and the final obstacle towards a science that is indistinguishable from magic).  (The X-man fiction marvel run holds surprising ideas related to this too.), a path towards god which if you'd like could be considered from a  christian's perspective as The Second(depending on the nature of reality it may actually affect all epochs simultaneously), from a Jewish perspective it would likely be the messiah.

From a platonic realist perspective it may indeed be some fundamental actuality, whose existence in some point of spacetime is inevitable, in a sense it may actually be considered a first cause from some perspective and alternatives merely relative interpretations.

Edited by steampoweredgod, 21 March 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[shadowhawk]

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steampoweredgod,  What the problem is is the definition of evolution.

This is not our problem.  Read the debate so far.

Quote

Some have it that there exists two processes evolution and devolution, to the scientist both are the same and covered by evolution. So loss of limbs, eyes, organs, brains, complexity is also called evolution

Has nothing to do with mutations not driving evolution.

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Increasing complexity is not an inevitable outcome of evolution, evolution can go the other way too.

How do you get increasing complexity?  Define how we get evolution.  I agree things can become less complex.  Is there irreducible complexity?

Quote

So what we're talking about is called the complexity ratchet(which is also often called in confusing manner by mainstream lay audience as evolution, but is distinct from evolution) or why certain path lead to ever increasing complexity through time. Which is as stated a separate phenomenon from evolution, an emergent phenomenon, which does have some explanations which may or may not satisfy individual queries regarding it. A lifeform may retain similar levels of complexity for millions of years, lose complexity or gain complexity... why it statistically emerges the possibility of indefinite gain complexity(complexity ratchet). One can look at two opposite extremes reached at present, if we imagine virtual end points at present the delicate but powerful human pathway and the more resilient and powerful insect pathway. Yet despite the power of insects over the world, the human pathway enables the jump towards the final state that is capable of preserving all 'lower' lifeforms, such potential appears absent from the line leading towards insects(and most any other pathway not leading to increased mental acumen itself, in a sense the human-like pathway is the ideal one, the one that manages to touch the divine, or the one touched by the divine.). The true nature of the ratchet and full satisfactory explanation may indeed require deeper understanding of what's called time's arrow in physics.

Show me how mutations produce a gain in complexity with scientific evidence.  Natural selection and random mutations are the drivers of evolution. No one disagrees with Natural selection, the issue is over mutations.  Even cave men could see natural selection.  This has already been argued earlier.  See above bookmarks in this thread.  Follow the argument.http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/44332-god-is-theoretically-possible/page__view__findpost__p__507949

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Most scientists consider there is no direction or final evolutionary form, because evolution can go in any direction in adaptation(as said including loss of complexity)

I am not asking for an election.  Wrong views are often held by the majority.  The issue is truth..

Quote

People like me do believe that there exist final evolutionary states that may very well guarantee absolute survival from any natural or artificial threat, states at the ceiling or limits of complexity pathway. Immortal godlike lifeforms that can in all likelyhood be indestructible(for all practical purposes), and clearly while connected in some sense to lower lifeforms are in a sense qualitatively distinct, and in a sense are true essence of the divinity instantiated in the physical flesh. The living equation, the fire of life, elan vital. You could also call it the living word.

Poetic.  Thanks, but...

Quote

While most religious persons rely on primitive rituals to bring them closer to the divine, those with firm grasp of science rely on science to bring them closer to the divine, the truth of this world is that what you might call "prayers" through logic and science are answered or one might simply call it the only realistically viable bootstrap strategies to reach the next step in jacob's ladder... otherwise the "prayers" go unanswered. So it is the scientist who gets the regenerated limb, the healed spine, the cured cancer, the ability to fly, to touch the moon, etc. the miracles as a result of prayer or you might say effort....

It is abel whose sacrifice is accepted and cain denies

You are going off topic here.  I could argue these points but won’t go off topic myself.

Quote

Quote
Cain is described as a crop farmer and his younger brother Abel as a shepherd. Genesis 4:2 Cain is portrayed as sinful, committing the first murder by killing his brother, after God rejected his offerings of produce but accepted Abel's sacrifice "from the firstborn of his flock and from their fats".Genesis 4:1,3 Thus, Cain was the first human born, and Abel the first to die.-wk
No rational man can deny science.

Straw man.  Shall we have a Bible study?

Quote

Quote

There are at least two other possibilities. One is simply bio-science raising human intelligence by enhancing our memory and enhancing our ability to think clearly, and then I think there’s one that is becoming more evident but is sort of off-stage, and that is the notion of a “Digital Gaia,” a sort of internet under the internet that consists of all the networked embedded microprocessors in the world, and the Digital Gaia is certainly the most alien of the different possibilities. In fact, I sort of like to trot it out to give an example of something that’s pretty obviously very strange and hard to understand. If you could imagine something like where the world becomes its own database, where reality itself wakes up. Actually more than anything else it looks like some sort of implementation of animism. So that particular possibility, Digital Gaia, to me is certainly the most alien and in some ways the most nervous-making, because if the world woke up then a lot of our common sense about the world is not valid anymore. Karl Schroeder had a great book that discussed this sort of possibility, and that was his novel Ventus.-wired

Yet outside of fictional works like the excellent lain series, or the mentioned novel, this possibility is hardly ever considered. But it is what the stage has been set for, and divine instruments or agents work forward to.

OK, not on topic.  Don’t you like Evolution?

Quote

I like the phrase do not bring an atom to a god's fight. The religious masses are vast, once they realize that the living word and will is evidently manifest through science, their loyalty and support is guaranteed, the vote is certainly decided and stacked, so is the outcome.

All that is necessary is the wake up call, which for all intents and purposes has already been made by the human machine civilization. It should be noted, that it is claimed final evolutionary lifeform is distinct from god but directly related to it, more of a memory guardian(as memory is not only the basis of consciousness but of what can be accomplished in a reality made up of information... such restrictions are what give one set of physical laws instead of another, and the final obstacle towards a science that is indistinguishable from magic). (The X-man fiction marvel run holds surprising ideas related to this too.), a path towards god which if you'd like could be considered from a christian's perspective as The Second(depending on the nature of reality it may actually affect all epochs simultaneously), from a Jewish perspective it would likely be the messiah.


From a platonic realist perspective it may indeed be some fundamental actuality, whose existence in some point of spacetime is inevitable.

So you believe in the forms?  No evidence on topic anywhere.  This end part, is nonsense anti religious bigotry.  It is nether scientific nor accurate..

[shadowhawk]

The issues argued again.

Definition of ID
http://www.longecity...post__p__498808

Peer Review
http://www.discovery.org/a/2640

Atheist Theist debates.
http://www.longecity...post__p__480983

Arguments for Intellignt Design - Evolution
1.  http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/44332-god-is-theoretically-possible/page__view__findpost__p__491476

2. http://www.longecity...post__p__491932

3.  http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/44332-god-is-theoretically-possible/page__view__findpost__p__492066

4.  http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/44332-god-is-theoretically-possible/page__view__findpost__p__492250

5,  http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/44332-god-is-theoretically-possible/page__view__findpost__p__492433

6.  http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/44332-god-is-theoretically-possible/page__view__findpost__p__496211

All arguments.. http://www.longecity...post__p__498997


Challenge to Atheists to prove random mutations drive evolution. http://www.longecity...post__p__499021

Summary.  http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/44332-god-is-theoretically-possible/page__view__findpost__p__507405

[steampoweredgod]

Quote

Has nothing to do with mutations not driving evolution.

As I've been considering artificial synthetic biology lifeforms, I've wondered how things like viruses, mobile genetic elements, etc may be involved in preserving life. It may be that a design deprived of such elements may suffer in evolvability. Sexual reproduction also leads to remixing of gene combinations, and is believed to accelerate evolution(gene exchange and mix and match is present even in single cell organisms).

Again it is intrinsic variability that is present, even epigenetic changes occur in response to environment and spread for more than a generation.

Decaying lifeforms competing for limited resources will result in those having a slight edge(look at the olympics, a slight improved suit or training or even random chance event may cause the difference between first and second place.), benefiting from such. What could be the otherwise logical outcome? I don't get how having an edge in a competition, for it is a competition with penalty of death, will not result in sharpening of that edge(as variability is somehow preserved in populations.... inbreeding which reduces variability may lead to serious defects and even extinction).

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How do you get increasing complexity? Define how we get evolution. I agree things can become less complex. Is there irreducible complexity?

Irreducible complexity only in the sense that you need at least some basic laws or rules from which to operate and generate complexity.

As genetic material may increase or decrease in size, the duplications or deletions can result in gain of novel function which may be additional or may not.

Convergence is also seen on some designs across various lines, dictated by mathematical or physical reality optimum design limits.

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Show me how mutations produce a gain in complexity with scientific evidence.

A 'mutation' in the sense that may involved duplication, deletion or mere nucleic base change can result in 3 logical possibilities, iirc, no change or preserved function, loss of function or gain or improved function.

The immune system's workings is an excellent example of random genetic change or variability dealing powerful functional benefits(antigen identification of antibodies, how we manage with such few genes to fight off a nigh infinite battallion of more rapidly evolving lifeforms).

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Don’t you like Evolution?

No one said final evolutionary lifeform loses evolutionary capability, it doesn't lose anything only gains ever more which is why it cannot be defeated in any conceivable sense, it is the embodiment of change or will.... the necessary change at the necessary time, from the infinity of possible paths, as if all were taken one is chosen(see feynman interpretation, don't focus on details.). It is hyperevolvable in a sense.

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This end part, is nonsense anti religious bigotry. It is nether scientific nor accurate..

Ahhh, but time and again a mathematician has introduced actual infinity to be bludgeoned into a corner of potentiality by the community, or so it is said.

Mathematics is also called the science of patterns. And mathematical realists do interpret the nature of the relation of mathematics and nature to be more direct and in all likelyhood essentially the same.

Quote

The issues argued again.

The universe shows classical behavior despite quantum nature(see feynman interpretation link above).

What do you define as intelligence to me it is a form of evolution, an accelerated form of evolution, or hyperevolutionary function. Something that accelerates change itself, towards the ideal state. Thus the algorithms of general intelligence yield towards the ideal form.

Technological progress is merely the extension of the evolutionary force through life towards greater control of the plane of existence.

The cycle has already been completed and genes have gone from biological to cyberspace and back towards biological. The chain of control or change will now be manipulated by the human machine civilization, evolution itself will be accelerated towards perfect idealized theoretically optimal forms utilizing all manner of paths.

In terms of the brain, there exists LTP(long term potentiation, see pkmzeta info) and LTD(long term depression) of synapses, it is said that number of synapse may even stay relatively around a homeostatic point in tissues to avoid damaging nonfunctional behavior.   There is hypothesized competition and selection, the initial connections may even be loosely restricted between classes, and new connections have been theorized(with some experimental backing) may spawn and die throughout normal tissue function.

[platypus]

Shadowhawk evolution is beating creationism 10000 to 0.1 since about the year 1860. The burden is on the cretinist camp to show evidence, so far they have failed miserably. Where's your beef??

[steampoweredgod]

Btw, where it not that god = first cause, but merely an emergent phenomenon, how many wouldn't turn against? especially if it justified the cruel nature of the world through some logic?

Therein lies a very good test of faith, would you abandon someone merely because they deviate from your ideal?

Why would Deus ex Machina be wrong?

Edited by steampoweredgod, 21 March 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[shadowhawk]

steampoweredgod, on 21 March 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Btw, where it not that god = first cause, but merely an emergent phenomenon, how many wouldn't turn against? especially if it justified the cruel nature of the world through some logic?

Therein lies a very good test of faith, would you abandon someone merely because they deviate from your ideal?

Why would Deus ex Machina be wrong?

No evidence, change the subject.

[platypus]

There is no evidence for cretinism (ID), just hyperbole and bold unsubstantiated claims about "complexity" etc. What gene has been changed by a divine interevention and when did this happen? Where's the proof?

[shadowhawk]

platypus, on 21 March 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Shadowhawk evolution is beating creationism 10000 to 0.1 since about the year 1860. The burden is on the cretinist camp to show evidence, so far they have failed miserably. Where's your beef??

Where is your evidence?  What do you  think creationism is?   I have produced extended evidence, you have produced nothing.   Here again show me where I argued any of this nonsense you claim.

Definition of ID
http://www.longecity...post__p__498808

Peer Review
http://www.discovery.org/a/2640

Atheist Theist debates.
http://www.longecity...post__p__480983

Arguments for Intellignt Design - Evolution
1.  http://www.longecity...post__p__491476

2. http://www.longecity...post__p__491932

3.  http://www.longecity...post__p__492066

4.  http://www.longecity...post__p__492250

5,  http://www.longecity...post__p__492433

6.  http://www.longecity...post__p__496211

All arguments.. http://www.longecity...post__p__498997


Challenge to Atheists to prove random mutations drive evolution. http://www.longecity...post__p__499021

Summary.  http://www.longecity...post__p__507405

Edited by shadowhawk, 21 March 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[shadowhawk]

THIESTS  in Science. For all those who believe in the Conflict Thesis between Science and Religion.  This is belief is false.

http://en.wikipedia....kers_in_science

http://en.wikipedia....ientist-clerics

http://en.wikipedia....suit_scientists

http://en.wikipedia....kers_in_science

http://en.wikipedia....nd_philosophers

http://en.wikipedia...._Modern_Science

http://en.wikipedia....ligion_scholars

http://www.apologeti...s-of-faith.html

[steampoweredgod]

shadowhawk, on 21 March 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

THIESTS  in Science. For all those who believe in the Conflict Thesis between Science and Religion.  This is belief is false.

http://en.wikipedia....kers_in_science

http://en.wikipedia....ientist-clerics

http://en.wikipedia....suit_scientists

http://en.wikipedia....kers_in_science

http://en.wikipedia....nd_philosophers

http://en.wikipedia...._Modern_Science

http://en.wikipedia....ligion_scholars

http://www.apologeti...s-of-faith.html

Look shadowhawk, if I define intelligence in terms of an applied evolutionary function(after all we are said to be products of an evolutionary process, so all of our technological achievement is the end result of such a process given time to reach fruition.), then we're going to conflict

As stated

Quote

The large and diverse population of antibodies is generated by random combinations of a set of gene segments that encode different antigen binding sites (or paratopes), followed by random mutations in this area of the antibody gene, which create further diversity.-wiki

Function randomness in action within each and every single human being.

In the brain the concept of neural darwinism exists also.   Connections are strengthened and connections are pruned.

To put it mildly


The machine god of which I speak is no different from say Hatsune Miku in nature.  




The world greatest scientist, Newton's perspective.

[platypus]

Cretinists have no proof, that's why they've lost.

[shadowhawk]

Quote

DAMABO 1. I am discussing evidence for the absence of god. Namely we don't see him/It/her. While I do not commit to taking any stance (I am agnostic, this seems most reasonable to me) this should not matter when discussing evidence. Yes absence of god is evidence. I did not say conclusive evidence (as I have already said evidence does not equal proof, so I don't see what your problem is with this evidence, given that it is observable for everybody), but that's what you might put into my mouth.

Is the only thing that is real, what you can see?  Could you have made this statement two hundred years ago and it have been true?  What about two hundred years from now

We can’t see lots of things that are real.  How about feelings?

Quote

3. I don't really care what argument they made. Mutual respect is necessary for conversation, as you have pointed out yourself.

Agreed.

Quote

5. No that is not my definition of god. Even if it was, the argument would hold up, namely that we need a sound definition of something before we can start talking. We agree that this god would probably not exist. This would be a shock to the people in the BC-years, who believed that the god of the old testament was really the god that took care of Israel. The first post you refered to is about a pantheistic view, that god somehow underlies nature. Is this god then, nature? the term god would be superfluous if it were just nature. seems , to me, like an excuse for using the word god.

A definition should have some relationship to what is defined.  If God is an old man with a beard, you do not have an adequate definition.  Also we talk about all kinds of things without a clear definition.  I can think of many examples in science.

Are you saying that the Jews before Christ believed God was an old man?  This is wrong.

There are several different views that God underlies nature and all of them are not pantheistic.  What are you talking about?  I do not believe God and nature are the same.  You have created a straw man.  Even Pantheists think more of nature than materialism.

Edited by shadowhawk, 06 April 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[DAMABO]

shadowhawk, on 06 April 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Quote

DAMABO 1. I am discussing evidence for the absence of god. Namely we don't see him/It/her. While I do not commit to taking any stance (I am agnostic, this seems most reasonable to me) this should not matter when discussing evidence. Yes absence of god is evidence. I did not say conclusive evidence (as I have already said evidence does not equal proof, so I don't see what your problem is with this evidence, given that it is observable for everybody), but that's what you might put into my mouth.

Is the only thing that is real, what you can see?  Could you have made this statement two hundred years ago and it have been true?  What about two hundred years from now

We can’t see lots of things that are real.  How about feelings?

Quote

3. I don't really care what argument they made. Mutual respect is necessary for conversation, as you have pointed out yourself.

Agreed.

Quote

5. No that is not my definition of god. Even if it was, the argument would hold up, namely that we need a sound definition of something before we can start talking. We agree that this god would probably not exist. This would be a shock to the people in the BC-years, who believed that the god of the old testament was really the god that took care of Israel. The first post you refered to is about a pantheistic view, that god somehow underlies nature. Is this god then, nature? the term god would be superfluous if it were just nature. seems , to me, like an excuse for using the word god.

A definition should have some relationship to what is defined.  If God is an old man with a beard, you do not have an adequate definition.  Also we talk about all kinds of things without a clear definition.  I can think of many examples in science.

Are you saying that the Jews before Christ believed God was an old man?  This is wrong.

There are several different views that God underlies nature and all of them are not pantheistic.  What are you talking about?  I do not believe God and nature are the same.  You have created a straw man.  Even Pantheists think more of nature than materialism.

-you can't see feelings? that's weird. not only can we detect feelings in our daily lives, but also can we detect neural centra for emotions. emotions thus are a well established fact. immateriality will be never detectable, and will always remain pure speculation. so your question on the other topic "evidence for atheism", as I have explained numerous times, is obsolete in this definition. but I guess that's off topic again ( it was also in the topic that dealt with this question of evidence for atheism)
-not that he was an old man with a beard no, but they did believe that god took care of their people.
-ok, suppose there is more than materialism. and that you call this immateriality god. Then evidence supporting it or rejecting it can never be found. that's alright. it just contrasts with your opinion that you should provide evidence for atheism when there can never be provided evidence for either standpoint (atheism or god-ism).
-so explain, god underlies nature and is not equal to nature. if it is immaterial, how would it be able to influence anything? perhaps, if you adapt your definition of god, to a material being that resides at scales below the planck level, of a 'consciousness' underlying nature, then maybe it would be possible that their is a force in nature (some would call it consciousness, I prefer not to) that exerts influence over existence. However, then god is both immaterial, and equal to nature, since this minuscule scale underlies all of materiality.