67 replies to this topic

[BlueCloud]

I used to take also a curcumin supplement with bioperine ( with great results ) , but i'm moving away from anything with bioperine . I take also some prescription stuff and i'm a bit wary of it's Cyp450 inhibition. I take AOR's Curecumin now.

Edited by bluecloud, 15 December 2010 - 07:29 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi nito,

See the banner in the resveratrol forum? That is the company I represent.

Cheers
A

[truelliot]

We shear the particle size of the super (7x absorption) biocurcumin and and emulsify it in a liquid nitrogen gas capsule... we have it under our own brand name, and it's 250mg not 400mg. Of course I can't link to it, or tell you what company I represent. But google something like biocurcumin 250, you might find ours or others similar that use medium chain triglycerides for increased absorption.

If anyone wants to chime in on our next formulation feel free, we will be doing a cheaper version soon using plain veggie caps with our BioCurcumin formulation (not the liquid sheared particle with MCT) but with an added ingredient for absorption. Specifically to reduce pricing and beat LEF's pants off for this particular product.

Much like one our customers wanted.
Of course it's only one of the many nice things we will be doing this year.

Cheers
A

[truelliot]

hi...i would take my cue from people with chronic diseases, like cancer(me)...been doing a lot of curcumin research...good standard cos like ageless cures curcumin, 1000 mg...but researchers that i communicate with recommend Meriva curcumin that Dr's best and swanson carry because they can verify that it has 5-8 times more availability and claims by other cos can not be verified..doesn't mean there not true, just that the studies aren't there...longvida's product looks good...as a cancer patient i would love to see a capsule in the 1000 mg range with high bioavailability...meriva is 500mg...so something that is 10x more bioavailable than meriva at 1000mg....that would be great...i can see taking 5-10 gms per day so it has to be economical...it's very unfortunate that supplements that can actually make a difference are not economically feasible for most people only the ones with money...that's why rich people live longer, lol.....truelliot

[DalamarB]

Studies say that 4 grams of curcumin is needed to have readable levels of curcumin in blood for the couple of hours after, tests have been done with up to 10 grams with no toxicity or adverse effects.

What is the problem with bioperine if you are not taking any medication? At the end of the day it helps absorving curcumin, green tea (EGCG) and resveratrol... I usually take curcumin with resveratrol and after a green tea with some black pepper (100 mg more or less) on it, does it sound right?

[timar]

Regular black or white pepper contains between 5% and 10% piperine (= bioperine). Most curcumin supplements contain 5mg of piperine. That is equivalent to 50-100 mg of black pepper, which equals one or two peppercorns. Given that the avarage dietary intake of pepper is probably one order of magnitude above that, it seems rather absurd to be concerned about a few mg of piperine

[Volcanic]

Regular black or white pepper contains between 5% and 10% piperine (= bioperine). Most curcumin supplements contain 5mg of piperine. That is equivalent to 50-100 mg of black pepper, which equals one or two peppercorns. Given that the avarage dietary intake of pepper is probably one order of magnitude above that, it seems rather absurd to be concerned about a few mg of piperine

Combining pepper with other foods apparently is harmless, but that doesn't mean it's okay to combine it with supplements or drugs. Consider grapefruit...

[timar]

That's a silly distinction. Most supplements are taken with food. It is actually recommended for curcurmin to improve absorption. Moreover, if piperine would significantly inhibit CYP3A4, there would be warning labels on all drugs metabolized by that enzyme (e.g. SSRIs), not to consume pepper (like there are for grapefruits), which is of course not the case despite the fact that almost everyone taking these drugs is consuming pepper in amounts that provide much more piperine than the 5mg included in curcumin supplements.

Edited by timar, 08 January 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[DalamarB]

Combining pepper with other foods apparently is harmless, but that doesn't mean it's okay to combine it with supplements or drugs. Consider grapefruit...

I guess that it depends on the supplement or drug case by case, there is a lot of information on interactions, given that there are many cultures that take a lot of black pepper very often and take supplements and drugs with it, it shouldn't be a big problem,

How much grapefuit is required to have a similar effect?

[Oakman]

Bumping a 3 yr old thread, but this belongs here. Nothing in search on this.

 

I've taken many of the various curcumin formulations over the years. This one looks different.

-------

UltraCur, from Ultrabotanica, is curcumin tied to whey protein isolates. "Whey Protein becomes the Scaffold on which Curcumin is delivered into the body.  As the body digests the Complex - our Curcumin is Absorbed Readily."

 

Then there's  "14,000 times the bioavailability of standard Curcumin and 10 times the bioavailability of nano-particle preparations."

 

If I'm reading this right, it really is a quantum leap for this supplement.

 

Plasma levels = 610ng/ml /capsule at peak.

 

 

Compare to plasma levels for BCM-95 and Theracurmin. And this is x4 BCM95 500mg caps, or x6 30mg Theracurmin capsules. 

 

 

Their label reads a bit crazy to, if you follow curcumin, and if it is correct.

I mean one capsule (600mg) is = 240 grams of std. curcumin? Really?

Plus you get a little protein.

 

 

 

 After some investigation, I can't find anything wrong with their story.

 

http://www.ultrabotanica.com/

 

Product and Method for Improving Bioavailability of Therapeutic Compounds 
US 20140275283 A1

https://www.google.c...s/US20140275283

 

"We are What We Absorb"  
http://www.brinkzone...d2Ver112114.pdf

 

Cancer Mind - Bio-Available Curcumin

http://www.cancermin...-free-curcumin/

 

I've put an order in, will follow up. Never really noticed differences between formulations before, perhaps this will be different. A little joint pain relief occassionally would be nice.

 

 

[joelcairo]

Interesting. I've never heard of this product but it would be great if true (and if the curcumin continues to be bioactive in similar ways as other formulations.

 

Of that 600 mg listed on the label, my hunch is that the vast majority of the weight is the whey portion of the molecule, and the curcumin portion could be as little as 16 mg (240,000 equivalent mg divided by 15,000X bioavailability). In other words, if the actual effective bioavailability ends up being only 100X or so, then the product suddenly doesn't look so great.

Edited by joelcairo, 30 December 2016 - 06:25 PM.

[pamojja]

In other words, if the actual effective bioavailability ends up being only 100X or so, then the product suddenly doesn't look so great.

 

What a intentionally misleading marketing:

 

563 mg Protein
  14 mg Fats
  10 mg Carbohydrates
    0.8 mg Sodium

 

Leaves exactly space for 12,2 mg curcumin. Or a little bid different if it is counted under carbohydrates.

[Oakman]

Does it matter how much product is in one cap? It's how it's absorbed that matters to me.  Just shows how poorly - actually terribly - basic curcumin and even the 'enhanced' formulations are taken in.

 

If one UltraCur cap is equal to ~8 caps BCM95 or ~14 caps Theracurmin it's at least x8-14 better than either of those per cap as far as results. Cmax and AUC (haven't seen that yet)are what matters, and this seems to deliver on Cmax with minimal dosage, and in a prescribed, efficient manner.

[joelcairo]

I don't know anything about the product so I don't want to say anything against it, but one capsule is equivalent to 240,000 mg of plain curcumin? Equivalent to ingesting 240 GRAMS of curcumin, a quarter of a kilo? Given how well-established and powerful the effects of plain curcumin are, it seems like even one pill would be quite toxic if accurate.

[Oakman]

I don't know anything about the product so I don't want to say anything against it, but one capsule is equivalent to 240,000 mg of plain curcumin? Equivalent to ingesting 240 GRAMS of curcumin, a quarter of a kilo? Given how well-established and powerful the effects of plain curcumin are, it seems like even one pill would be quite toxic if accurate.

 

Based on the doses given here, I'd say you're onto something...  more investigation on this is needed.

 

Therapeutic Roles of Curcumin: Lessons Learned from Clinical Trials

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3535097/

 

CONCLUSIONS

Subsequent to the first seminal paper published in 1949 in Nature, numerous preclinical studies have provided a solid basis for examining curcumin’s efficacy against human diseases. As discussed in this review, curcumin has shown therapeutic potential against a number of human diseases. Common to all of these studies have been the safety, tolerability, and non-toxicity of this polyphenol, even at doses up to 8 g per day. The underlying mechanism for curcumin’s clinical efficacy seems to be modulation of numerous signaling molecules. However, because of the complex nature of the diseases, the underlying mechanism in many cases remains unclear.

From the findings of the completed clinical trials, it may seem that curcumin’s clinical efficacy is too good to be true. However, this polyphenol has not yet been approved for human use. Poor bioavailability and limited adverse effects reported by some investigators are a major limitation to the therapeutic utility of curcumin. We hope that the results from ongoing clinical trials will provide a deeper understanding of curcumin’s therapeutic potential and will help to place this fascinating molecule at the fore front of novel therapeutics.

[joelcairo]

I didn't notice it because the time chart and the bar chart above are both orange, but these come from different sources online and also the numbers are not compatible. Specifically the peak concentration of BCM-95 and Theracurmin are not exactly great, but should be higher than claimed in the other chart.

 

I'd be interested in knowing where that bioavailability study of UltraCur is available, because I cannot find the data on their website or anywhere else. The only documentation I can see is the claim of 610 ng/ml, but where does this come from?

[Oakman]

I'd be interested in knowing where that bioavailability study of UltraCur is available, because I cannot find the data on their website or anywhere else. The only documentation I can see is the claim of 610 ng/ml, but where does this come from?

 

On the bottle I have it says, "In our in-house studies we have seen on average 610 ng/ml in the blood per capsule. We also see maximum absorption in the 20-40 minute window. This translates to a very large amount of curcumin being bioavailable for your body in a very short amount of time. By binding curcumin to a protein scaffold we provide an easy to assimilate curcumin."

 

The only data missing I wished to see was the AUC info to find how long it remained w/high serum levels.  When I received my order there was a promo sheet that said, "UltraCur peaks in the blood stream between 20-40 minutes and stays in the bloodstream for approximately 8-12 hours." I would still like to see the AUC graph.

 

Another interesting tidbit I'd not heard before was, "We have learned that people tend to accumulate Curcumin over time - we suggest taking a 2 day "Curcumin Holiday" about every 45-60 days." I wonder where it accumulates and what that means?

 

As to dosing, " We suggest UltraCur be taken on an empty stomach such as 2 capsules taken upon rising and 2 capsules taken late afternoon (1-2 hours before dinner or 1-2 hours after dinner). If you prefer UltraCur may be taken with food.  I'm guessing as it is protein attached, the absorption is faster (same as whey) if on an empty stomach as assimilation is done soon after ingestion. This is different from normal curcumin with a lipid or piperine based product that needs further digestion to be absorbed and is typically best with food, not without. 

 

And further as to dosing, they indicate, "..for chronic or acute health issues, 2 capsules twice a day" or "to support optimal health, 1 capsule twice a day."

 

Probably someone needs to contact them directly to get the full study, if they are willing to release it.

 

Update - Just this morning in a search, I found a very extensive interview with Adam Payne, CEO of Ultra Botanical LLC on 9/27/2016. It is a very interesting interview with a lot of good curcumin and UltarCur information. A couple of his comments:

 

Q: Where do you obtain the Turmeric from that you use to extract the curcumin?

 

"The turmeric is imported from an industry leading raw material supplier with connections to farmers across the world. It is processed here in the U.S. We do our entire process here. All of our whey protein that we are using for the scaffold extract is mainly from Wisconsin cattle. All of our chemistry and ingredients that we buy are essentially made here in the U.S., so the extraction for the curcumin is done here, the whey protein is here, and we do all of our manufacturing to make the UltraCur complex here in our facilities. We are not outsourcing any of that. We control all the quality."

 

Q: "So how are you determining these blood measurements?

 

A: We do it using a state of the art mass spec and liquid chromatography. If we extract blood from people at different points in time so we measure the levels of actual curcumin in the body using mass spec instrumentation it is pretty exact. The people that we measure are a lot of times me and some other co-workers. We have become human pin cushions, and that’s the price we pay for coming up with something. We do literarily pour or blood and sweat into this thing."

 

Q: So let’s get into the whole comparison of this particular version vs some of the other products that are in the market. There is the Nano Curcumin which you mentioned. There is the turmeric with piperine, the BCM-95. Tell me what the different versions are and do a comparison.

 

A:"There are some great technologies out there and there are some technologies that aren’t that great. So let me start with the ones that are doing a great job. There is the BCM-95 technology which is curcumin plus turmeric oil. That’s not a bad product. It is getting into the body and people are seeing results in a couple of days, if not a couple of weeks. There is a loading that happens. We see levels of up to 40-50 nanograms per ml in the blood with a couple of capsules, so you are getting some serum exposure with BCM-95.

 

Then we have the Nano Curcumin, the phytosomes, and the liposomal formulations. Those also are doing really well. I think those are one step above the BCM-95 product, although I think the BCM-95 people would probably take issue with that. But essentially there are really exotic methods for making micronized or nanoparticle sizes of curcumin and encapsulating them in different structures that enable the body to absorb them. They are getting levels up to 50-200 nanograms per ml with a couple of capsules. I think the highest I have seen is in the mid 100’s.

 

The black pepper is really interesting. Black pepper, contrary to what many people are saying, does not increase the amount of curcumin that is absorbed in the body. We thought that was what it was doing earlier on, thinking that the black pepper was inflaming maybe the mucosa and the gut and allowing for more transport. When we went into literature, we rally started to understand what black pepper was doing. What black pepper does is that it inhibits an enzyme in the liver called glucuronidase. Glucuronidase is responsible for the breakdown of curcumin in the body so as it is passing through the liver, glucuronidase chops up the curcumin and makes it ineffective.

 

When you add black pepper to your body, your body will then slow down the metabolism of the curcumin that is being absorbed, and so you see an increase in the level of curcumin that you have in your body, but it’s not because you are increasing the absorption. It is because you are decreasing the rate at which it is metabolized. My caution with black pepper is that black pepper will also slow down the metabolism of other things that you are taking and it will slow down more than 40 pharmaceutical products that people might be taking, and it could result in a dangerous situation for people that are taking drugs, not recreational drugs, but pharmaceutical drugs. It could increase the levels of these different drugs in the body.

 

By in large, piperine is a safe material to take, but I would suggest that if anybody is taking a pharmaceutical product that they talk to their doctor to make sure piperine is not going to adversely affect the levels of that drug in their body. Piperine curcumin products will increase the bioavailability by a factor of 7, so if you take 2 grams of curcumin a day with piperine, you will see a blood signature of about 50 nanograms. That is equivalent to having like 3-4 capsules of just pure curcumin plus piperine, but most people aren’t selling it that way. When you compare those strategies to what we have, there is a 

significant difference. 

 

We are seeing on average based on the data that we have today; one capsule is about 600 nanograms of curcumin into the body at peak levels. When you compare that to my competitors, it is a factor of about 140 more on a capsule to capsule comparison than just regular curcumin. It’s about 20-30 times more than curcumin with black pepper extract, and it’s about a factor of 5-10 times more than the liposome and the nanoparticle products out there. That’s significant.

 

Our absorption rate is really fast. On an empty stomach, we will see maximal exposure between twenty to forty minutes. How does that translate? It’s like you are getting this huge bolus of curcumin into your body in a very short period and the earlier obviously you get the curcumin into your body, the more beneficial it is going."

 

Read the whole interview at the link above for the full company and product description. I'm liking this product more and more.

[Oakman]

Also this youtube interview with Adam Payne:  

 

 

[joelcairo]

Yeah, I found some of that same information. Amazing that they recommend 2 capsules twice a day for serious health conditions -- which would supposedly be equivalent to almost a kilo of curcumin, or something like 20-40 kilos of plain turmeric. I don't want to talk down their product as is may well be the best one available, but I just can't take these comparisons seriously.

 

I also looked up Biji Kurien, who was the co-developer of the product. He has a bunch of published articles, some involving curcumin, and at least one where he was measuring the kinetics of Theracurmin in the bloodstream. So I can believe the science is legit, albeit opaque right now.

 

Also there are some random reviews of a couple of different UltraCur products on Amazon.com. Seems most reviewers find it to be a lot more effective for pain & inflammation than other formulations, and I didn't see any reports of side effects.

[RWhigham]

In our in-house studies we have seen on average 610 ng/ml in the blood per capsule

Looks plausible. Each 500mg capsule contains 12 mg of curcumoids.

 

12 mg distributed in 5 L of blood would give 12 mg/5 L = 2,400 ng/mL

12 mg distributed in 40 L of body fluids would give 12 mg/40 L = 300 ng/mL.

 

UltraCur, from Ultrabotanica, is curcumin tied to whey protein isolates. "Whey Protein becomes the Scaffold on which Curcumin is delivered into the body.  As the body digests the Complex - our Curcumin is Absorbed Readily."

Looks wrong. The patent says this curcumin is contained in casein micelles. What we normally call whey protein is a byproduct of cheese making. Cheese is made from milk fat and casein, whey is what's left (casein?).

 

 

 

Edited by RWhigham, 18 January 2017 - 11:34 PM.

[Ark]

http://www.ultrabota...e.html#ultracur
I'd love to get this in bulk, any thoughts on a groupbuy on bulk ultracar powder from Ultrabotanic?

Edited by Ark, 19 January 2017 - 06:34 AM.

[Ark]

I received a reply, and have posted it below.

________________________________________


"Wow. What a thread! I loved the dialogue.

Yes - glad to sell to you in bulk. It's $285/kg. $185 for 500 g. We also have a program for people over 65 and a program if you have financial challenges.

I've copied Josh on this thread and he can take care of you if you want to proceed.

Kind regards,

Adam"

[Oakman]

UltraCur, from Ultrabotanica, is curcumin tied to whey protein isolates. "Whey Protein becomes the Scaffold on which Curcumin is delivered into the body.  As the body digests the Complex - our Curcumin is Absorbed Readily."

Looks wrong. The patent says this curcumin is contained in casein micelles. What we normally call whey protein is a byproduct of cheese making. Cheese is made from milk fat and casein, whey is what's left (casein)?

 

Thanks for catching that. I believe the correct patent application #s (not patents) are 13/694,368 and PCT/US12/066544  and both named "Solubilization of curcuminoid compounds and products thereof". They can be found here.

 

Best I can determine from these, they cover a method of creating a curcuminoid solution, then staining protein with it. That seems to fit the claim "...By binding curcumin to a protein scaffold we provide an easy to assimilate curcumin." They also seem to be having some trouble with their wording, and so received a non-binding rejection in Aug, 2016.

[RWhigham]

"Micellar curcumin" is another new formulation that gives higher peak concentrations than seen before.

The oral bioavailability of curcumin from micronized powder and liquid micelles

 

Price comparison:

Micellar Curcumin is  36¢ per gelcap  (Solgar 90 gelcaps for $32.50 on Amazon)

UltraCur is 47¢ per capsule (120 capsules for $56.50 on Amazon)

 

Micellar Curcumin absorption: 

500 mg of micellar curcumoids gives a peak of 3,500 uM/L (from the above link)

We need to convert from uM/L to ng/ml. Molar mass of curcumin is 368.385 g/mol

3,500 uM/L x 368 g/M = 1,288,000 mcg/L = 1.288 ng/L = 1288 ng/mL  (for a single 500 mg dose)

Since Solgar micellar curcumin has 40 mg/gelcap of curcumoids, 500 mg/40 mg/cap takes 12.5 gelcaps 

 

UltraCur: One UltraCur capsule containing 15 mg of curcumoids gives a peak of 600 ng/mL. So 2 UltraCur capsules at a cost of 92¢ would give 1200 ng/ml the same as 12 Solgar gelcaps at a cost of 12 x 36¢ = $4.32

 

Edited by RWhigham, 19 January 2017 - 06:52 PM.

[Ark]

(Forward/copy pasted from my email.)

Great discussion folks. We so appreciate the digging that you are doing to explore the Curcumin landscape.

We are by no means through with our R&D for this unique core technology that genuinely allows significantly higher Curcumin signals to be measured in human serum plasma with smaller dosing.

Other protein binding herbs and botanicals will also be explored for enhancing bio-availability as funds are available.

Feel free to reach out to me on my cell. I genuinely enjoy interacting with potential and existing UltraCur users as we learn a great deal from your personal experiences as well as your own research.

My experience with this material was so (and still is) so profound and that helped facilitate my ongoing relationship with the founder Adam. We interact daily from our OKC mfg. facility.

Interestingly I recently took a two week break from UltraCur and was excited that I experienced no regression in the results I had obtained.

One clarification to your thread regarding our recommendation to "take a Curcumin holiday every 45-60 days", we see anecdotally among our users (to include ourselves) an acclimation of the body not an accumulation in the body regarding daily UltraCur use.

This short 2 day break seems to "re-set" the body for optimal ongoing results.

My experience with this material was so (and still is) so profound and that helped facilitate my ongoing relationship with the founder Adam. We interact daily from our OKC mfg. facility.

Interestingly I recently took a two week break from UltraCur and was excited that I experienced no regression in the results I had obtained.

I have been using UltraCur daily for almost 20 months now. The initial results I obtained were within 5 days and were profound.

Many of our existing customers were already taking good Curcumin products when they discovered us and made the permanent switch based on results.

We have a growing group of medical professionals globally, primarily in the regenerative medicine space who are strong advocates for our material. They use it themselves and recommend it.

We have done very little to promote to consumers or Doctors. Largely word of mouth has been the driver for growth.

We have 2 clinical research studies on the drawing board for 2017. One for UltraCur's effects on periodontal disease and its ability to lower C-reactive protein (CRP) and one for Osteoarthritis.

My cell number: 405-204-33**
Warm regards, Josh
P.S.
Here is an email we received recently that might be considered representative of an informed Curcumin user from Amazon.

UltraBotanica Team member,

Your Ultracür Whey Curcumin product is shockingly amazing and ground breaking in the Curcumin marketplace!

I have done extensive amounts of research in methods & complexes that boost the absorption and bio-availability of Curcumin significantly. I have also tried numerous amounts of different absorption boosting complexes that include: "BCM-95", "CurcuWin", "NovaSOL" (micelle Polysorbate 80 surrounding the Curcumin), "Theracurmin" (nanoparticles in gum ghatti), and "Longvida" Curcumin (phytosome).

Out of all the different Curcumin boosting brands, the only ones that have noticeably worked for me are; Terry Naturally's "CuraMed" 750mg BCM-95 soft-gels and Solgar's full spectrum Curcumin with NovaSOL. The strongest I had been using from experience, was the CuraMed 750mg with BCM-95 with added Medium chain triglycerides to boost absorption.

The CuraMed had been the best, but that was until I came across your new Curcumin product that's bound to the whey protein molecules, allowing the Curcuminoids to hitch a ride into the blood stream sort of like a Trojan horse.

Thanks again for such a great novel Curcumin product that actually works really really well!

Robert S.

Edited by Ark, 19 January 2017 - 10:42 PM.

[Ark]

I may call them tomorrow...

Edited by Ark, 19 January 2017 - 10:45 PM.

[Oakman]

I had a nice chat with Josh Bellieu from UltraBotanica today and he offered everyone:

 

"I have set up a separate 20% off promo code at www.ultratoday.com  for 1^st time buyers that you can share on forums or with friends and loved ones:  MY20 "

[RWhigham]

3,500 uM/L x 368 g/M = 1,288,000 mcg/L = 1.288 ng/L = 1288 ng/mL  (for a single 500 mg dose)

Correction:

3,500 nM/L x 368 g/M = 1,288,000 ng/L = 1288 ng/mL   The previous post had the right answer, just screwed up units.

 

3,500 nM/L is from Fig 1A in "The oral bioavailability of curcumin from micronized powder and liquid micelles"

368 g/M is the molar mass of curcumin

Edited by RWhigham, 20 January 2017 - 04:23 AM.

[Oakman]

UltraCur: One UltraCur capsule containing 15 mg of curcumoids gives a peak of 600 ng/mL. So 2 UltraCur capsules at a cost of 92¢ would give 1200 ng/ml the same as 12 Solgar gelcaps at a cost of 12 x 36¢ = $4.32

 

A little correction here... yesterday, I asked Josh about the amt of actual curcumin that is in each UltraCur capsule. He indicated 24.5mg approximately along with the whey.

[tintinet]

http://www.ultrabota...e.html#ultracur
I'd love to get this in bulk, any thoughts on a groupbuy on bulk ultracar powder from Ultrabotanic?

I'd be in for a group buy.