85 replies to this topic

[niner]

But I do not have a strong opinion either way right now, esp. cause I am somewhat troubled by creatine raising DHT.

creatine increasing dht? Dear lord, stop the madness!

Check this out:

Clin J Sport Med. 2009 Sep;19(5):399-404.
Three weeks of creatine monohydrate supplementation affects dihydrotestosterone to testosterone ratio in college-aged rugby players.

van der Merwe J, Brooks NE, Myburgh KH.

Department of Physiological Sciences, Stellenbosch University, Stellenbosch, South Africa.

Comment in:

* Clin J Sport Med. 2010 May;20(3):220; author reply 220-2.

Abstract

OBJECTIVE: This study investigated resting concentrations of selected androgens after 3 weeks of creatine supplementation in male rugby players. It was hypothesized that the ratio of dihydrotestosterone (DHT, a biologically more active androgen) to testosterone (T) would change with creatine supplementation.

DESIGN: Double-blind placebo-controlled crossover study with a 6-week washout period.

SETTING: Rugby Institute in South Africa.

PARTICIPANTS: College-aged rugby players (n = 20) volunteered for the study, which took place during the competitive season.

INTERVENTIONS: Subjects loaded with creatine (25 g/day creatine with 25 g/day glucose) or placebo (50 g/day glucose) for 7 days followed by 14 days of maintenance (5 g/day creatine with 25 g/day glucose or 30 g/day glucose placebo).

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Serum T and DHT were measured and ratio calculated at baseline and after 7 days and 21 days of creatine supplementation (or placebo). Body composition measurements were taken at each time point.

RESULTS: After 7 days of creatine loading, or a further 14 days of creatine maintenance dose, serum T levels did not change. However, levels of DHT increased by 56% after 7 days of creatine loading and remained 40% above baseline after 14 days maintenance (P < 0.001). The ratio of DHT:T also increased by 36% after 7 days creatine supplementation and remained elevated by 22% after the maintenance dose (P < 0.01).

CONCLUSIONS: Creatine supplementation may, in part, act through an increased rate of conversion of T to DHT. Further investigation is warranted as a result of the high frequency of individuals using creatine supplementation and the long-term safety of alterations in circulating androgen composition. STATEMENT OF

CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Although creatine is a widely used ergogenic aid, the mechanisms of action are incompletely understood, particularly in relation to dihydrotestosterone, and therefore the long-term clinical safety cannot be guaranteed.

PMID: 19741313

I tried creatine a few years ago, and noticed a lot of hair loss. When I quit the creatine, the hair loss stopped. A quick google suggests that I'm not the first person to see this effect.

[ritch]

OK, so you're diet isn't terrible, good news. You just need some tweaking... To make this as simple as possible here's what you should do. Have a protein carb meal before and after your training. The rest of the meals are protein and fats. Right now you have no carbs post workout so I would include some there. If you're a natural ectomorph then you can add another protein carb meal after your post workout meal and the 3 remaining meals are protein and fats. It's very simple and it works.

And no 5 grams of creatine will not kill you lol. These are old housewife tales that need to stop. How tall are you and how much do you plan on weighing? The word "bodybuilder" can have different meanings for different people. But most guys need to at least bench 2 plates a side and squat around 3 plates a side to have any type of mass that will make you look big in clothes... There are always exceptions....

Good luck with this, and again, I have lots of experience here (over 20 years of training) and take this very seriously, any questions on how to get bigger or stronger, just ask!

Is it alright if the carbs in the protein/carb meals come from sweet potatoes and other vegetables like string beans, etc? I feel very strongly about staying away from high glycemic processed carbs. I have even completely rid myself of oatmeal and all other types of grains in an effort to assuage any serious blood sugar spikes.

I am not going to get into my opinion of being big and what have you, but my goal is not that. Lean mass yes, whether or not it is visible or intimidating to other's is really not my goal here. Bruce Lee was a very muscular guy but it wasn't necessarily visible through clothes. Small but lean is my goal. I am pretty much there now but I want to make some minor improvements still. Do you think Creatine will help with fat burning if I make the dietary tweaks you suggest?

For the carbs I would have complex carbs before your workout. A good 1.5 to 2 hours before. Post workout many including myself like fast acting carbs like gatorade to cause an insulin skike which shuttles more aminos from the protein into your muscles. Some however prefer even slow carbs post workout. If your a guy who gains fat easily, then no gatorade. The sweet potatoe option is a great one. Have your source of lean protein with that and your gtg.

As far as creatine, it simply makes you better at anything you do. More atp being available the better you perform. That and the full round look it gives your muscles. Don't mistake that with water retention. This is intra cellular water retention... The people who claim water retention are people who sell the much more expensive creatines like the creatine ester, malate, orotate and so on... There is a small chance you won't respond to it, but chances are you will like the look and performance it gives you.

However for the Bruce Lee look, no way do you need it! Just get very low body fat and you will be ripped. To get that lean it's 80% diet. Do some cardio empty stomach when you can, low intensity longer duration of choice the machine dosen't really matter, but the stairmaster pays off big time.

Just watching what you eat, the type of training you do with some martial arts done 3 times a week should get you that look.

If you want a diet to get you crazy lean go to rxmuscle.com and look up Dave Palumbo's keto diet. Super easy to follow, but the 1st 2 weeks can be hell for some, But if you follow that diet you won't need to do martial arts for the extra calorie burning. It would even overtrain you if you hit the weights too hard. But calisthnetics (sp?) isn't really that high intensity wise so maybe you could pull it off.

Is this getting more clear?

The problem I have with cardio is I can't seem to do more than about an hour a week (if that) without it becoming catabolic to muscle growth. I begin to lose muscle and gain fat with too much aerobics basically.

The calisthenics are just an added supplement to burn more calories without going overboard with aerobics exercises. The central work out involves resistance with both weights and my own body. I am almost as muscular as bruce lee was when he was young but not as low in body fat. He probably had about 3-4% lower body fat than I do. I am guessing he was somewhere around 7% whereas I am somewhere between 10-11%.

Also, is the myth about rest period necessarily true? If you're not doing extremely heavy weights is that 48 hour rest period really necessary? What is a good way to alternate exercises so you can do something everyday without overworking any one group of muscles? Upper body work out one day and lower body the next? What about overtraining the abs by doing ab work outs every day? Is this an issue or just hyped up?

Even if you can just manage 20 minutes of cardio after weights it can still make a difference. If you have a dog, go for a walk before breakfast...

An upper/lower body routine could work in your case. You could train on Monday, Tuesday then take wednesday off and train again on Thursday and Friday. Do you have access to a gym before I lay out specific excercises? Or tell me what home stuff you have.

The whole recovery time period is very individual. Typically the less hard you train the often you can. I only most muscle groups once a week. But sleep and nutrition are huge factors here and it's something you must do very consistently.

Just give me an idea of how tall you are, weight, age, body type (gain fat easily, skinny guy who can't gain weight...) type of job (physical, stuff like that to thing of methods best suited for those needs.

Funny you mention Bruce Lee, they just had a show on superhumanradio about his training. Here's the link: http://www.superhumanradio.com/

Edited by ritch, 22 November 2010 - 04:56 AM.

[leviathans]

I think you can get alot of benefits lifting medium weights too. As in 40-50 pound dumb bells. I don't know why some people think lifting this amount of weight is useless. Alot of people can't even lift that much. I am not saying it is super amount of weight obviously but when done properly and with the right repetitions muscle fiber conditioning is certain.

dont get me wrong, i think lifting weights in any amount if beneficial. i just think that heavier + progressive overload will lead to better outcomes in the long run as far as longevity goes.

I don't know I think that there might be a cut off point where, if you lift more than a certain amount it is not only useless to longevity but detrimental. I am not suggesting that cut off to be 50 pound dumbells of course, but it could be 200 pounds, 300 pounds, anything really. And if you want to look at it in that ever so popular paleo perspective, did our ancestors lift concentrated amounts of weight? I think it was alot more random than that. That's not the reason I am doing various forms of resistance exercises, but it's a consideration too. I intend to lift heavier at some point, but for right now I feel the benefits of lifting this moderate amount of weight in the correct way and proper repetitions.

Based on the fact that people who still trains after their 50's tends to have more energy, more libido and A LOT LESS muscle loss, I think that lifting leads to a MUCH better quality of life. Think about it, what would you prefer : living for 90 years but lacking energy, being extremely weak and possibly not being able to walk or living for 85 years and being full of energy and being still able to do all the things a 30 years old could do. I'd personally take option 2. Quality of life is much more important in my opinion than pure longevity.

Anyways, we'll all get cryogenics so who cares if we live 5 years more or 5 years less

Go pump some iron

[nowayout]

Duke's and the other high-fat diet guys' view is a minority opinion. A vocal and strident minority, to be sure, but the fact that they are loud does not make them right.

So basically you are calling them the Bill O'reillys of the health community? And what of all the studies constantly brought up throughout the forum which indicate positive association between low carb diet and fat loss? And again, what is YOUR current diet like eh?

A low carb diet is not the same as a high animal fat diet.

As for me, I don't gain weight with any diet. It is genetic. I have a very fast metabolism and a very specific set point, so my abs are visible no matter what, even if I lie in bed all day. I don't micromanage my calories but I would characterize my diet as somewhat Mediterranean. I don't eat processed food products.

Edited by viveutvivas, 22 November 2010 - 04:15 PM.

[TheFountain]

OK, so you're diet isn't terrible, good news. You just need some tweaking... To make this as simple as possible here's what you should do. Have a protein carb meal before and after your training. The rest of the meals are protein and fats. Right now you have no carbs post workout so I would include some there. If you're a natural ectomorph then you can add another protein carb meal after your post workout meal and the 3 remaining meals are protein and fats. It's very simple and it works.

And no 5 grams of creatine will not kill you lol. These are old housewife tales that need to stop. How tall are you and how much do you plan on weighing? The word "bodybuilder" can have different meanings for different people. But most guys need to at least bench 2 plates a side and squat around 3 plates a side to have any type of mass that will make you look big in clothes... There are always exceptions....

Good luck with this, and again, I have lots of experience here (over 20 years of training) and take this very seriously, any questions on how to get bigger or stronger, just ask!

Is it alright if the carbs in the protein/carb meals come from sweet potatoes and other vegetables like string beans, etc? I feel very strongly about staying away from high glycemic processed carbs. I have even completely rid myself of oatmeal and all other types of grains in an effort to assuage any serious blood sugar spikes.

I am not going to get into my opinion of being big and what have you, but my goal is not that. Lean mass yes, whether or not it is visible or intimidating to other's is really not my goal here. Bruce Lee was a very muscular guy but it wasn't necessarily visible through clothes. Small but lean is my goal. I am pretty much there now but I want to make some minor improvements still. Do you think Creatine will help with fat burning if I make the dietary tweaks you suggest?

For the carbs I would have complex carbs before your workout. A good 1.5 to 2 hours before. Post workout many including myself like fast acting carbs like gatorade to cause an insulin skike which shuttles more aminos from the protein into your muscles. Some however prefer even slow carbs post workout. If your a guy who gains fat easily, then no gatorade. The sweet potatoe option is a great one. Have your source of lean protein with that and your gtg.

As far as creatine, it simply makes you better at anything you do. More atp being available the better you perform. That and the full round look it gives your muscles. Don't mistake that with water retention. This is intra cellular water retention... The people who claim water retention are people who sell the much more expensive creatines like the creatine ester, malate, orotate and so on... There is a small chance you won't respond to it, but chances are you will like the look and performance it gives you.

However for the Bruce Lee look, no way do you need it! Just get very low body fat and you will be ripped. To get that lean it's 80% diet. Do some cardio empty stomach when you can, low intensity longer duration of choice the machine dosen't really matter, but the stairmaster pays off big time.

Just watching what you eat, the type of training you do with some martial arts done 3 times a week should get you that look.

If you want a diet to get you crazy lean go to rxmuscle.com and look up Dave Palumbo's keto diet. Super easy to follow, but the 1st 2 weeks can be hell for some, But if you follow that diet you won't need to do martial arts for the extra calorie burning. It would even overtrain you if you hit the weights too hard. But calisthnetics (sp?) isn't really that high intensity wise so maybe you could pull it off.

Is this getting more clear?

The problem I have with cardio is I can't seem to do more than about an hour a week (if that) without it becoming catabolic to muscle growth. I begin to lose muscle and gain fat with too much aerobics basically.

The calisthenics are just an added supplement to burn more calories without going overboard with aerobics exercises. The central work out involves resistance with both weights and my own body. I am almost as muscular as bruce lee was when he was young but not as low in body fat. He probably had about 3-4% lower body fat than I do. I am guessing he was somewhere around 7% whereas I am somewhere between 10-11%.

Also, is the myth about rest period necessarily true? If you're not doing extremely heavy weights is that 48 hour rest period really necessary? What is a good way to alternate exercises so you can do something everyday without overworking any one group of muscles? Upper body work out one day and lower body the next? What about overtraining the abs by doing ab work outs every day? Is this an issue or just hyped up?

Even if you can just manage 20 minutes of cardio after weights it can still make a difference. If you have a dog, go for a walk before breakfast...

An upper/lower body routine could work in your case. You could train on Monday, Tuesday then take wednesday off and train again on Thursday and Friday. Do you have access to a gym before I lay out specific excercises? Or tell me what home stuff you have.

The whole recovery time period is very individual. Typically the less hard you train the often you can. I only most muscle groups once a week. But sleep and nutrition are huge factors here and it's something you must do very consistently.

Just give me an idea of how tall you are, weight, age, body type (gain fat easily, skinny guy who can't gain weight...) type of job (physical, stuff like that to thing of methods best suited for those needs.

Funny you mention Bruce Lee, they just had a show on superhumanradio about his training. Here's the link: http://www.superhumanradio.com/

Today I added more carbs pre and post work out. I threw in a little more kale before the work out, some avocado and sweet potato with lots of butter afterwards, and all meals with added protein of course. Fish, whey, eggs, etc.

What I am doing currently is going very slow with incorporating cardio-type calisthenics into the end of the work out as an extra metabolic boost. Jumping jacks, mountain climbers, etc. But I really do not want to overdo it because for some reason I lose muscle and gain fat with too much cardio, especially if I am not taking in 3000+ calories a day.

To answer your other questions. Height 5'10, weight currently is about 153, goal weight might be 10 pounds heavier (in muscle) if possible. Age mid-20s.

[TheFountain]

I think you can get alot of benefits lifting medium weights too. As in 40-50 pound dumb bells. I don't know why some people think lifting this amount of weight is useless. Alot of people can't even lift that much. I am not saying it is super amount of weight obviously but when done properly and with the right repetitions muscle fiber conditioning is certain.

dont get me wrong, i think lifting weights in any amount if beneficial. i just think that heavier + progressive overload will lead to better outcomes in the long run as far as longevity goes.

I don't know I think that there might be a cut off point where, if you lift more than a certain amount it is not only useless to longevity but detrimental. I am not suggesting that cut off to be 50 pound dumbells of course, but it could be 200 pounds, 300 pounds, anything really. And if you want to look at it in that ever so popular paleo perspective, did our ancestors lift concentrated amounts of weight? I think it was alot more random than that. That's not the reason I am doing various forms of resistance exercises, but it's a consideration too. I intend to lift heavier at some point, but for right now I feel the benefits of lifting this moderate amount of weight in the correct way and proper repetitions.

Based on the fact that people who still trains after their 50's tends to have more energy, more libido and A LOT LESS muscle loss, I think that lifting leads to a MUCH better quality of life. Think about it, what would you prefer : living for 90 years but lacking energy, being extremely weak and possibly not being able to walk or living for 85 years and being full of energy and being still able to do all the things a 30 years old could do. I'd personally take option 2. Quality of life is much more important in my opinion than pure longevity.

Anyways, we'll all get cryogenics so who cares if we live 5 years more or 5 years less

Go pump some iron

I did not say weight lifting was not beneficial to people of all ages. I questioned the amount of weight or if there might be a cut off point where lifting more than a certain amount is not only not beneficial but detrimental. Some animal studies show that weighted exercises causes oxidative stress and muscle fiber damage. I am not and cannot say what weight would be detrimental to the longevity of humans. I am simply saying that it is definitely not useless to lift 50 pound dumb bells the right way.

Edited by TheFountain, 22 November 2010 - 09:23 PM.

[TheFountain]

Duke's and the other high-fat diet guys' view is a minority opinion. A vocal and strident minority, to be sure, but the fact that they are loud does not make them right.

So basically you are calling them the Bill O'reillys of the health community? And what of all the studies constantly brought up throughout the forum which indicate positive association between low carb diet and fat loss? And again, what is YOUR current diet like eh?

A low carb diet is not the same as a high animal fat diet.

As for me, I don't gain weight with any diet. It is genetic. I have a very fast metabolism and a very specific set point, so my abs are visible no matter what, even if I lie in bed all day. I don't micromanage my calories but I would characterize my diet as somewhat Mediterranean. I don't eat processed food products.

When you remove carbs from the equation you have to replace them with fat. That's how macronutrient balance works. You can't get 70% of calories from protein, that is dumb and dangerous.

And if you are so convinced your abdominal development is the result of 'genetics' and you will have visible abs even if you 'lay in bed all day' don't you think giving other people dietary advise is a little short sighted?

[nowayout]

When you remove carbs from the equation you have to replace them with fat. That's how macronutrient balance works. You can't get 70% of calories from protein, that is dumb and dangerous.

Even assuming you should do this, the idea is not necessarily to replace them with saturated animal fats.

And if you are so convinced your abdominal development is the result of 'genetics' and you will have visible abs even if you 'lay in bed all day' don't you think giving other people dietary advise is a little short sighted?

It is not my advice. I was just pointing out that the idea that a high-saturated-fat diet is healthy is very much a minority opinion, even in the bodybuilding world. Few bodybuilders would cut that way.

[leviathans]

When you remove carbs from the equation you have to replace them with fat. That's how macronutrient balance works. You can't get 70% of calories from protein, that is dumb and dangerous.

Even assuming you should do this, the idea is not necessarily to replace them with saturated animal fats.

And if you are so convinced your abdominal development is the result of 'genetics' and you will have visible abs even if you 'lay in bed all day' don't you think giving other people dietary advise is a little short sighted?

It is not my advice. I was just pointing out that the idea that a high-saturated-fat diet is healthy is very much a minority opinion, even in the bodybuilding world. Few bodybuilders would cut that way.

What did you say ?

http://www.google.co...do=1&fp=1&cad=b

Note : 1,630 results only looking at discussion boards

[ritch]

OK, so you're diet isn't terrible, good news. You just need some tweaking... To make this as simple as possible here's what you should do. Have a protein carb meal before and after your training. The rest of the meals are protein and fats. Right now you have no carbs post workout so I would include some there. If you're a natural ectomorph then you can add another protein carb meal after your post workout meal and the 3 remaining meals are protein and fats. It's very simple and it works.

And no 5 grams of creatine will not kill you lol. These are old housewife tales that need to stop. How tall are you and how much do you plan on weighing? The word "bodybuilder" can have different meanings for different people. But most guys need to at least bench 2 plates a side and squat around 3 plates a side to have any type of mass that will make you look big in clothes... There are always exceptions....

Good luck with this, and again, I have lots of experience here (over 20 years of training) and take this very seriously, any questions on how to get bigger or stronger, just ask!

Is it alright if the carbs in the protein/carb meals come from sweet potatoes and other vegetables like string beans, etc? I feel very strongly about staying away from high glycemic processed carbs. I have even completely rid myself of oatmeal and all other types of grains in an effort to assuage any serious blood sugar spikes.

I am not going to get into my opinion of being big and what have you, but my goal is not that. Lean mass yes, whether or not it is visible or intimidating to other's is really not my goal here. Bruce Lee was a very muscular guy but it wasn't necessarily visible through clothes. Small but lean is my goal. I am pretty much there now but I want to make some minor improvements still. Do you think Creatine will help with fat burning if I make the dietary tweaks you suggest?

For the carbs I would have complex carbs before your workout. A good 1.5 to 2 hours before. Post workout many including myself like fast acting carbs like gatorade to cause an insulin skike which shuttles more aminos from the protein into your muscles. Some however prefer even slow carbs post workout. If your a guy who gains fat easily, then no gatorade. The sweet potatoe option is a great one. Have your source of lean protein with that and your gtg.

As far as creatine, it simply makes you better at anything you do. More atp being available the better you perform. That and the full round look it gives your muscles. Don't mistake that with water retention. This is intra cellular water retention... The people who claim water retention are people who sell the much more expensive creatines like the creatine ester, malate, orotate and so on... There is a small chance you won't respond to it, but chances are you will like the look and performance it gives you.

However for the Bruce Lee look, no way do you need it! Just get very low body fat and you will be ripped. To get that lean it's 80% diet. Do some cardio empty stomach when you can, low intensity longer duration of choice the machine dosen't really matter, but the stairmaster pays off big time.

Just watching what you eat, the type of training you do with some martial arts done 3 times a week should get you that look.

If you want a diet to get you crazy lean go to rxmuscle.com and look up Dave Palumbo's keto diet. Super easy to follow, but the 1st 2 weeks can be hell for some, But if you follow that diet you won't need to do martial arts for the extra calorie burning. It would even overtrain you if you hit the weights too hard. But calisthnetics (sp?) isn't really that high intensity wise so maybe you could pull it off.

Is this getting more clear?

The problem I have with cardio is I can't seem to do more than about an hour a week (if that) without it becoming catabolic to muscle growth. I begin to lose muscle and gain fat with too much aerobics basically.

The calisthenics are just an added supplement to burn more calories without going overboard with aerobics exercises. The central work out involves resistance with both weights and my own body. I am almost as muscular as bruce lee was when he was young but not as low in body fat. He probably had about 3-4% lower body fat than I do. I am guessing he was somewhere around 7% whereas I am somewhere between 10-11%.

Also, is the myth about rest period necessarily true? If you're not doing extremely heavy weights is that 48 hour rest period really necessary? What is a good way to alternate exercises so you can do something everyday without overworking any one group of muscles? Upper body work out one day and lower body the next? What about overtraining the abs by doing ab work outs every day? Is this an issue or just hyped up?

Even if you can just manage 20 minutes of cardio after weights it can still make a difference. If you have a dog, go for a walk before breakfast...

An upper/lower body routine could work in your case. You could train on Monday, Tuesday then take wednesday off and train again on Thursday and Friday. Do you have access to a gym before I lay out specific excercises? Or tell me what home stuff you have.

The whole recovery time period is very individual. Typically the less hard you train the often you can. I only most muscle groups once a week. But sleep and nutrition are huge factors here and it's something you must do very consistently.

Just give me an idea of how tall you are, weight, age, body type (gain fat easily, skinny guy who can't gain weight...) type of job (physical, stuff like that to thing of methods best suited for those needs.

Funny you mention Bruce Lee, they just had a show on superhumanradio about his training. Here's the link: http://www.superhumanradio.com/

Today I added more carbs pre and post work out. I threw in a little more kale before the work out, some avocado and sweet potato with lots of butter afterwards, and all meals with added protein of course. Fish, whey, eggs, etc.

What I am doing currently is going very slow with incorporating cardio-type calisthenics into the end of the work out as an extra metabolic boost. Jumping jacks, mountain climbers, etc. But I really do not want to overdo it because for some reason I lose muscle and gain fat with too much cardio, especially if I am not taking in 3000+ calories a day.

To answer your other questions. Height 5'10, weight currently is about 153, goal weight might be 10 pounds heavier (in muscle) if possible. Age mid-20s.

I would avoid the avocatos and butter post workout. Save the avocato as a fat source to add to a protein source so you have a good protein fat meal there. Another protein fat meal could be whey protein with natural peanut butter, then later on up to 6 whole eggs mixed with some splenda and cinnamon.

I still don't know what kind of equipment you have but I would train doing antagonist sets. A set of dumbell presses for chest followed by a set of underhand barbell rowing... You would do the dumbell presses then without rest the barbell row. Rest 30 seconds and repeat. A set of pullups followed by a set of dumbell presses for shoulders and so on..

does that sound like something you would like to do? It creates lots of lactic acid and your body pumps out lots of GH in turn. A workout like that would not need much if any cardio if you diet is spot on and I can't stress that enough...

10lbs of muscle at your given stats should no way take more than 2 months and that's being conservative if you train hard and rest properly. 10lbs could be yours if you start creatine even faster even though I don't find it's necessary. Just letting you know what your options are.

[TheFountain]

OK, so you're diet isn't terrible, good news. You just need some tweaking... To make this as simple as possible here's what you should do. Have a protein carb meal before and after your training. The rest of the meals are protein and fats. Right now you have no carbs post workout so I would include some there. If you're a natural ectomorph then you can add another protein carb meal after your post workout meal and the 3 remaining meals are protein and fats. It's very simple and it works.

And no 5 grams of creatine will not kill you lol. These are old housewife tales that need to stop. How tall are you and how much do you plan on weighing? The word "bodybuilder" can have different meanings for different people. But most guys need to at least bench 2 plates a side and squat around 3 plates a side to have any type of mass that will make you look big in clothes... There are always exceptions....

Good luck with this, and again, I have lots of experience here (over 20 years of training) and take this very seriously, any questions on how to get bigger or stronger, just ask!

Is it alright if the carbs in the protein/carb meals come from sweet potatoes and other vegetables like string beans, etc? I feel very strongly about staying away from high glycemic processed carbs. I have even completely rid myself of oatmeal and all other types of grains in an effort to assuage any serious blood sugar spikes.

I am not going to get into my opinion of being big and what have you, but my goal is not that. Lean mass yes, whether or not it is visible or intimidating to other's is really not my goal here. Bruce Lee was a very muscular guy but it wasn't necessarily visible through clothes. Small but lean is my goal. I am pretty much there now but I want to make some minor improvements still. Do you think Creatine will help with fat burning if I make the dietary tweaks you suggest?

For the carbs I would have complex carbs before your workout. A good 1.5 to 2 hours before. Post workout many including myself like fast acting carbs like gatorade to cause an insulin skike which shuttles more aminos from the protein into your muscles. Some however prefer even slow carbs post workout. If your a guy who gains fat easily, then no gatorade. The sweet potatoe option is a great one. Have your source of lean protein with that and your gtg.

As far as creatine, it simply makes you better at anything you do. More atp being available the better you perform. That and the full round look it gives your muscles. Don't mistake that with water retention. This is intra cellular water retention... The people who claim water retention are people who sell the much more expensive creatines like the creatine ester, malate, orotate and so on... There is a small chance you won't respond to it, but chances are you will like the look and performance it gives you.

However for the Bruce Lee look, no way do you need it! Just get very low body fat and you will be ripped. To get that lean it's 80% diet. Do some cardio empty stomach when you can, low intensity longer duration of choice the machine dosen't really matter, but the stairmaster pays off big time.

Just watching what you eat, the type of training you do with some martial arts done 3 times a week should get you that look.

If you want a diet to get you crazy lean go to rxmuscle.com and look up Dave Palumbo's keto diet. Super easy to follow, but the 1st 2 weeks can be hell for some, But if you follow that diet you won't need to do martial arts for the extra calorie burning. It would even overtrain you if you hit the weights too hard. But calisthnetics (sp?) isn't really that high intensity wise so maybe you could pull it off.

Is this getting more clear?

The problem I have with cardio is I can't seem to do more than about an hour a week (if that) without it becoming catabolic to muscle growth. I begin to lose muscle and gain fat with too much aerobics basically.

The calisthenics are just an added supplement to burn more calories without going overboard with aerobics exercises. The central work out involves resistance with both weights and my own body. I am almost as muscular as bruce lee was when he was young but not as low in body fat. He probably had about 3-4% lower body fat than I do. I am guessing he was somewhere around 7% whereas I am somewhere between 10-11%.

Also, is the myth about rest period necessarily true? If you're not doing extremely heavy weights is that 48 hour rest period really necessary? What is a good way to alternate exercises so you can do something everyday without overworking any one group of muscles? Upper body work out one day and lower body the next? What about overtraining the abs by doing ab work outs every day? Is this an issue or just hyped up?

Even if you can just manage 20 minutes of cardio after weights it can still make a difference. If you have a dog, go for a walk before breakfast...

An upper/lower body routine could work in your case. You could train on Monday, Tuesday then take wednesday off and train again on Thursday and Friday. Do you have access to a gym before I lay out specific excercises? Or tell me what home stuff you have.

The whole recovery time period is very individual. Typically the less hard you train the often you can. I only most muscle groups once a week. But sleep and nutrition are huge factors here and it's something you must do very consistently.

Just give me an idea of how tall you are, weight, age, body type (gain fat easily, skinny guy who can't gain weight...) type of job (physical, stuff like that to thing of methods best suited for those needs.

Funny you mention Bruce Lee, they just had a show on superhumanradio about his training. Here's the link: http://www.superhumanradio.com/

Today I added more carbs pre and post work out. I threw in a little more kale before the work out, some avocado and sweet potato with lots of butter afterwards, and all meals with added protein of course. Fish, whey, eggs, etc.

What I am doing currently is going very slow with incorporating cardio-type calisthenics into the end of the work out as an extra metabolic boost. Jumping jacks, mountain climbers, etc. But I really do not want to overdo it because for some reason I lose muscle and gain fat with too much cardio, especially if I am not taking in 3000+ calories a day.

To answer your other questions. Height 5'10, weight currently is about 153, goal weight might be 10 pounds heavier (in muscle) if possible. Age mid-20s.

I would avoid the avocatos and butter post workout. Save the avocato as a fat source to add to a protein source so you have a good protein fat meal there. Another protein fat meal could be whey protein with natural peanut butter, then later on up to 6 whole eggs mixed with some splenda and cinnamon.

I still don't know what kind of equipment you have but I would train doing antagonist sets. A set of dumbell presses for chest followed by a set of underhand barbell rowing... You would do the dumbell presses then without rest the barbell row. Rest 30 seconds and repeat. A set of pullups followed by a set of dumbell presses for shoulders and so on..

does that sound like something you would like to do? It creates lots of lactic acid and your body pumps out lots of GH in turn. A workout like that would not need much if any cardio if you diet is spot on and I can't stress that enough...

10lbs of muscle at your given stats should no way take more than 2 months and that's being conservative if you train hard and rest properly. 10lbs could be yours if you start creatine even faster even though I don't find it's necessary. Just letting you know what your options are.

I've actually been considering purchasing a pull up bar I saw on sale at dicks sporting goods. I doubt I can currently do more than about 8 reps at a time but I am sure even that much will help with strength gains. Can you clarify why I shouldn't eat avocado and butter post workout again? I am slightly confused on that.

These other exercises you mention sound like something I would definitely consider challenging myself with. I do need the proper equipment though. Currently I lack a bench and am basically using free weights and doing some dumbell presses from the floor, which might be useless for all I know. Which is why I am doing an assortment of other exercises. What I have is basically two adjustable dumbells. Currently I use them at between 40-50 pounds, depending on the exercise.

Edited by TheFountain, 22 November 2010 - 11:58 PM.

[ritch]

OK, so you're diet isn't terrible, good news. You just need some tweaking... To make this as simple as possible here's what you should do. Have a protein carb meal before and after your training. The rest of the meals are protein and fats. Right now you have no carbs post workout so I would include some there. If you're a natural ectomorph then you can add another protein carb meal after your post workout meal and the 3 remaining meals are protein and fats. It's very simple and it works.

And no 5 grams of creatine will not kill you lol. These are old housewife tales that need to stop. How tall are you and how much do you plan on weighing? The word "bodybuilder" can have different meanings for different people. But most guys need to at least bench 2 plates a side and squat around 3 plates a side to have any type of mass that will make you look big in clothes... There are always exceptions....

Good luck with this, and again, I have lots of experience here (over 20 years of training) and take this very seriously, any questions on how to get bigger or stronger, just ask!

Is it alright if the carbs in the protein/carb meals come from sweet potatoes and other vegetables like string beans, etc? I feel very strongly about staying away from high glycemic processed carbs. I have even completely rid myself of oatmeal and all other types of grains in an effort to assuage any serious blood sugar spikes.

I am not going to get into my opinion of being big and what have you, but my goal is not that. Lean mass yes, whether or not it is visible or intimidating to other's is really not my goal here. Bruce Lee was a very muscular guy but it wasn't necessarily visible through clothes. Small but lean is my goal. I am pretty much there now but I want to make some minor improvements still. Do you think Creatine will help with fat burning if I make the dietary tweaks you suggest?

For the carbs I would have complex carbs before your workout. A good 1.5 to 2 hours before. Post workout many including myself like fast acting carbs like gatorade to cause an insulin skike which shuttles more aminos from the protein into your muscles. Some however prefer even slow carbs post workout. If your a guy who gains fat easily, then no gatorade. The sweet potatoe option is a great one. Have your source of lean protein with that and your gtg.

As far as creatine, it simply makes you better at anything you do. More atp being available the better you perform. That and the full round look it gives your muscles. Don't mistake that with water retention. This is intra cellular water retention... The people who claim water retention are people who sell the much more expensive creatines like the creatine ester, malate, orotate and so on... There is a small chance you won't respond to it, but chances are you will like the look and performance it gives you.

However for the Bruce Lee look, no way do you need it! Just get very low body fat and you will be ripped. To get that lean it's 80% diet. Do some cardio empty stomach when you can, low intensity longer duration of choice the machine dosen't really matter, but the stairmaster pays off big time.

Just watching what you eat, the type of training you do with some martial arts done 3 times a week should get you that look.

If you want a diet to get you crazy lean go to rxmuscle.com and look up Dave Palumbo's keto diet. Super easy to follow, but the 1st 2 weeks can be hell for some, But if you follow that diet you won't need to do martial arts for the extra calorie burning. It would even overtrain you if you hit the weights too hard. But calisthnetics (sp?) isn't really that high intensity wise so maybe you could pull it off.

Is this getting more clear?

The problem I have with cardio is I can't seem to do more than about an hour a week (if that) without it becoming catabolic to muscle growth. I begin to lose muscle and gain fat with too much aerobics basically.

The calisthenics are just an added supplement to burn more calories without going overboard with aerobics exercises. The central work out involves resistance with both weights and my own body. I am almost as muscular as bruce lee was when he was young but not as low in body fat. He probably had about 3-4% lower body fat than I do. I am guessing he was somewhere around 7% whereas I am somewhere between 10-11%.

Also, is the myth about rest period necessarily true? If you're not doing extremely heavy weights is that 48 hour rest period really necessary? What is a good way to alternate exercises so you can do something everyday without overworking any one group of muscles? Upper body work out one day and lower body the next? What about overtraining the abs by doing ab work outs every day? Is this an issue or just hyped up?

Even if you can just manage 20 minutes of cardio after weights it can still make a difference. If you have a dog, go for a walk before breakfast...

An upper/lower body routine could work in your case. You could train on Monday, Tuesday then take wednesday off and train again on Thursday and Friday. Do you have access to a gym before I lay out specific excercises? Or tell me what home stuff you have.

The whole recovery time period is very individual. Typically the less hard you train the often you can. I only most muscle groups once a week. But sleep and nutrition are huge factors here and it's something you must do very consistently.

Just give me an idea of how tall you are, weight, age, body type (gain fat easily, skinny guy who can't gain weight...) type of job (physical, stuff like that to thing of methods best suited for those needs.

Funny you mention Bruce Lee, they just had a show on superhumanradio about his training. Here's the link: http://www.superhumanradio.com/

Today I added more carbs pre and post work out. I threw in a little more kale before the work out, some avocado and sweet potato with lots of butter afterwards, and all meals with added protein of course. Fish, whey, eggs, etc.

What I am doing currently is going very slow with incorporating cardio-type calisthenics into the end of the work out as an extra metabolic boost. Jumping jacks, mountain climbers, etc. But I really do not want to overdo it because for some reason I lose muscle and gain fat with too much cardio, especially if I am not taking in 3000+ calories a day.

To answer your other questions. Height 5'10, weight currently is about 153, goal weight might be 10 pounds heavier (in muscle) if possible. Age mid-20s.

I would avoid the avocatos and butter post workout. Save the avocato as a fat source to add to a protein source so you have a good protein fat meal there. Another protein fat meal could be whey protein with natural peanut butter, then later on up to 6 whole eggs mixed with some splenda and cinnamon.

I still don't know what kind of equipment you have but I would train doing antagonist sets. A set of dumbell presses for chest followed by a set of underhand barbell rowing... You would do the dumbell presses then without rest the barbell row. Rest 30 seconds and repeat. A set of pullups followed by a set of dumbell presses for shoulders and so on..

does that sound like something you would like to do? It creates lots of lactic acid and your body pumps out lots of GH in turn. A workout like that would not need much if any cardio if you diet is spot on and I can't stress that enough...

10lbs of muscle at your given stats should no way take more than 2 months and that's being conservative if you train hard and rest properly. 10lbs could be yours if you start creatine even faster even though I don't find it's necessary. Just letting you know what your options are.

I've actually been considering purchasing a pull up bar I saw on sale at dicks sporting goods. I doubt I can currently do more than about 8 reps at a time but I am sure even that much will help with strength gains. Can you clarify why I shouldn't eat avocado and butter post workout again? I am slightly confused on that.

These other exercises you mention sound like something I would definitely consider challenging myself with. I do need the proper equipment though. Currently I lack a bench and am basically using free weights and doing some dumbell presses from the floor, which might be useless for all I know. Which is why I am doing an assortment of other exercises. What I have is basically two adjustable dumbells. Currently I use them at between 40-50 pounds, depending on the exercise.

A pull up bar will help you out big time. Once you can't get any more reps, just propel yourself to the top position or put a chain under the bar (just don't smash your head on the door frame) and do some reps where you simply lower yourself down to the starting position. You can buy a pull up bar that puts you away from the door frame, it would be better.

Check out ebay or an online store if you can't find one. They used to go for $30 at a store I used to work at, plus it had the option of doing the pull ups in a neutral position (palms facing each other). so with that bar you can do pull up (hand over the bar or pronated) chin up (hands under the bar) and neutral grip pull ups. If you can get to say sets of 12 reps each with just those excercises you will have some kick ass development. Make sure you lower in 3 seconds and go up 1 second. The tempo you can play with many ways to keep you gaining all the time. So get one of those bars or go to a park and do them there!

Post workout is typically best having protein and carbs. Post workout is when your body is ready to take in carbs at a very effective rate so take advantage of this. NO fats. The fats slow the absorption of the amino acids. This is another of those debatable bodybuilding type topics but I would stick with that method. Besides if you have at a good 75 grams of carbs and 40 grams or so of protein your cals when you add the hidden fasts are up there. So keep the fats for the remainder of your meals, you will have plenty of time to get in your healyth, muscle building fats in the last 3 meals.

I hope you don't just have dumbells that go from 40-50. I mean for a dumbell curl, that is a lot of weight if you do it properly. If that's the case, how do you warm up? If you have dumbells that can go in 2.5 lbs increments from say 5-50lbs you should be fine. A cheap bench could be a swiss ball for dumbell and fly movements and many other uses. Add the chin up bar and you have a decent home gym. Gargae sales are your friend as well to buy some plates for cheap. Some deals on ebay as well.

If you have nothing lighter than the dumbells for now you can use water jugs. I'm sure youtube has all kinds of home training you can do with very little. I'm sure if you spend some time there you can find some stuff to tide you over in the meantime, just try not to spend too much time watching monkeys throw shit at people or doing the nasty...

[nowayout]

It is not my advice. I was just pointing out that the idea that a high-saturated-fat diet is healthy is very much a minority opinion, even in the bodybuilding world. Few bodybuilders would cut that way.

What did you say ?

http://www.google.co...do=1&fp=1&cad=b

Note : 1,630 results only looking at discussion boards

If you are talking of a high-saturated-fat ketogenic diet, then I still insist that the idea that this is a healthy thing to do is very much a minority opinion. It is almost certainly going to be unhealthy in the short term and definitely unhealthy in the long term. But I should have qualified my last remark: Few smart bodybuilders would cut that way.

[niner]

I've actually been considering purchasing a pull up bar I saw on sale at dicks sporting goods.

A pull up bar will help you out big time. Once you can't get any more reps, just propel yourself to the top position or put a chain under the bar (just don't smash your head on the door frame) and do some reps where you simply lower yourself down to the starting position. You can buy a pull up bar that puts you away from the door frame, it would be better.

Slightly OT, but be careful with doorframe-mounted pullup bars. I got the worst injury of my life using a cheap doorframe pullup bar. (two crushed discs in my neck) There are decent bars that are offset from the doorframe, like ritch says. Get one of those, not one that is close to the frame. If you have to pull your head out of the way to avoid hitting the top of the doorframe, the fact that you are simultaneously lifting your body weight results in some sort of dangerous biomechanics.

[ritch]

I've actually been considering purchasing a pull up bar I saw on sale at dicks sporting goods.

A pull up bar will help you out big time. Once you can't get any more reps, just propel yourself to the top position or put a chain under the bar (just don't smash your head on the door frame) and do some reps where you simply lower yourself down to the starting position. You can buy a pull up bar that puts you away from the door frame, it would be better.

Slightly OT, but be careful with doorframe-mounted pullup bars. I got the worst injury of my life using a cheap doorframe pullup bar. (two crushed discs in my neck) There are decent bars that are offset from the doorframe, like ritch says. Get one of those, not one that is close to the frame. If you have to pull your head out of the way to avoid hitting the top of the doorframe, the fact that you are simultaneously lifting your body weight results in some sort of dangerous biomechanics.

You make a very good point about the poorly designed pull up bar which distracts you from the natural pull up/ chin up movement. If you're any good with woodwork and have some handy man skills you could make one. My dad made one. It's suspended from the ceiling in the basement, very sturdy... If you have high ceilings you could suspend one off the wall as well.

[leviathans]

It is not my advice. I was just pointing out that the idea that a high-saturated-fat diet is healthy is very much a minority opinion, even in the bodybuilding world. Few bodybuilders would cut that way.

What did you say ?

http://www.google.co...do=1&fp=1&cad=b

Note : 1,630 results only looking at discussion boards

If you are talking of a high-saturated-fat ketogenic diet, then I still insist that the idea that this is a healthy thing to do is very much a minority opinion. It is almost certainly going to be unhealthy in the short term and definitely unhealthy in the long term. But I should have qualified my last remark: Few smart bodybuilders would cut that way.

I could send you tons of good studies showing that high-fat diet leads to less inflammation, better glucose/cholesterol profile than the typical low-fat diet, but I won't bother.

[nowayout]

It is not my advice. I was just pointing out that the idea that a high-saturated-fat diet is healthy is very much a minority opinion, even in the bodybuilding world. Few bodybuilders would cut that way.

What did you say ?

http://www.google.co...do=1&fp=1&cad=b

Note : 1,630 results only looking at discussion boards

If you are talking of a high-saturated-fat ketogenic diet, then I still insist that the idea that this is a healthy thing to do is very much a minority opinion. It is almost certainly going to be unhealthy in the short term and definitely unhealthy in the long term. But I should have qualified my last remark: Few smart bodybuilders would cut that way.

I could send you tons of good studies showing that high-fat diet leads to less inflammation, better glucose/cholesterol profile than the typical low-fat diet, but I won't bother.

Then don't. What do I know? I've never grown fat around my midsection (or anywhere else) in all of my 44 years, after all.

Edited by viveutvivas, 23 November 2010 - 03:52 PM.

[leviathans]

Then don't. What do I know? I've never grown fat around my midsection (or anywhere else) in all of my 44 years, after all.

No that's not it. Everything is not black and white. I'm not saying that low-fat isn't healthy and that it can't lead to weight loss.

Studies only shows a statistically more significant improvement with high-fat than low-fat. BUT, Firstly, the difference may be small even if it's statistically significant and secondly it's based on the average, it doesn't mean that everybody react better with a high-fat diet but the mean does.

Also, this doesn't mean at all that low-fat is bad. Low-fat diets still leads to significantly better metabolic profile and weight loss than the average American diet. You may do better on a low-fat diet for sure, it definitively depends on the individual and the genes. If your someone with genetically strong insulin sensitivity, studies show that you're going to do better with a low-fat diet. But most people tends to becomes insulin resistant, so high-fat is slightly better for most people.

In the end, I just believe that someone should use the diet that gives him the good results in terms of glucose/cholesterol profile and weight loss. I think it is very wrong to say HIGH FAT IS BAD OR HIGH CARB IS BAD.

[nowayout]

Also, this doesn't mean at all that low-fat is bad. Low-fat diets still leads to significantly better metabolic profile and weight loss than the average American diet. You may do better on a low-fat diet for sure, it definitively depends on the individual and the genes. If your someone with genetically strong insulin sensitivity, studies show that you're going to do better with a low-fat diet. But most people tends to becomes insulin resistant, so high-fat is slightly better for most people.

My insulin sensitivity is indeed very good, so this may explain part of it. I think the most important part is just quantity. I am not American, but my ex was, and hanging out with his friends and family I noticed that Americans eat enormous amounts of food. Even his female friends would eat me under the table, and so would all his family, even his teenage niece would eat more than me, and I am a 6' 165lb male. When he would visit my family, he would think that he was starving on the regular amounts of food my mother would dish up (which is enough to keep my father at 200 lbs, so it is not that she dishes up too little food).

People keep looking for easy ways out with macronutrient proportions and all that, which may have some effect, but I think simply eating less trumps all of that.

Edited by viveutvivas, 23 November 2010 - 05:49 PM.

[ritch]

It is not my advice. I was just pointing out that the idea that a high-saturated-fat diet is healthy is very much a minority opinion, even in the bodybuilding world. Few bodybuilders would cut that way.

What did you say ?

http://www.google.co...do=1&fp=1&cad=b

Note : 1,630 results only looking at discussion boards

If you are talking of a high-saturated-fat ketogenic diet, then I still insist that the idea that this is a healthy thing to do is very much a minority opinion. It is almost certainly going to be unhealthy in the short term and definitely unhealthy in the long term. But I should have qualified my last remark: Few smart bodybuilders would cut that way.

I could send you tons of good studies showing that high-fat diet leads to less inflammation, better glucose/cholesterol profile than the typical low-fat diet, but I won't bother.

What he's saying about the fats is very true. You want good info on fats check out rxmuscle.com Low fat diets are what is making society sick as a whole.

[ritch]

It is not my advice. I was just pointing out that the idea that a high-saturated-fat diet is healthy is very much a minority opinion, even in the bodybuilding world. Few bodybuilders would cut that way.

What did you say ?

http://www.google.co...do=1&fp=1&cad=b

Note : 1,630 results only looking at discussion boards

If you are talking of a high-saturated-fat ketogenic diet, then I still insist that the idea that this is a healthy thing to do is very much a minority opinion. It is almost certainly going to be unhealthy in the short term and definitely unhealthy in the long term. But I should have qualified my last remark: Few smart bodybuilders would cut that way.

I could send you tons of good studies showing that high-fat diet leads to less inflammation, better glucose/cholesterol profile than the typical low-fat diet, but I won't bother.

Then don't. What do I know? I've never grown fat around my midsection (or anywhere else) in all of my 44 years, after all.

You're probably lucky like me that you have a fast metabolism, I'd bet you're a natural ectomorph and have a natural high insulin sensitivity meaning the carbs don't go to fat like most unlucky people...

[nowayout]

You're probably lucky like me that you have a fast metabolism, I'd bet you're a natural ectomorph and have a natural high insulin sensitivity meaning the carbs don't go to fat like most unlucky people...

Yes. The flip side is that I struggle to grow and keep muscle.

[TheFountain]

OK, so you're diet isn't terrible, good news. You just need some tweaking... To make this as simple as possible here's what you should do. Have a protein carb meal before and after your training. The rest of the meals are protein and fats. Right now you have no carbs post workout so I would include some there. If you're a natural ectomorph then you can add another protein carb meal after your post workout meal and the 3 remaining meals are protein and fats. It's very simple and it works.

And no 5 grams of creatine will not kill you lol. These are old housewife tales that need to stop. How tall are you and how much do you plan on weighing? The word "bodybuilder" can have different meanings for different people. But most guys need to at least bench 2 plates a side and squat around 3 plates a side to have any type of mass that will make you look big in clothes... There are always exceptions....

Good luck with this, and again, I have lots of experience here (over 20 years of training) and take this very seriously, any questions on how to get bigger or stronger, just ask!

Is it alright if the carbs in the protein/carb meals come from sweet potatoes and other vegetables like string beans, etc? I feel very strongly about staying away from high glycemic processed carbs. I have even completely rid myself of oatmeal and all other types of grains in an effort to assuage any serious blood sugar spikes.

I am not going to get into my opinion of being big and what have you, but my goal is not that. Lean mass yes, whether or not it is visible or intimidating to other's is really not my goal here. Bruce Lee was a very muscular guy but it wasn't necessarily visible through clothes. Small but lean is my goal. I am pretty much there now but I want to make some minor improvements still. Do you think Creatine will help with fat burning if I make the dietary tweaks you suggest?

For the carbs I would have complex carbs before your workout. A good 1.5 to 2 hours before. Post workout many including myself like fast acting carbs like gatorade to cause an insulin skike which shuttles more aminos from the protein into your muscles. Some however prefer even slow carbs post workout. If your a guy who gains fat easily, then no gatorade. The sweet potatoe option is a great one. Have your source of lean protein with that and your gtg.

As far as creatine, it simply makes you better at anything you do. More atp being available the better you perform. That and the full round look it gives your muscles. Don't mistake that with water retention. This is intra cellular water retention... The people who claim water retention are people who sell the much more expensive creatines like the creatine ester, malate, orotate and so on... There is a small chance you won't respond to it, but chances are you will like the look and performance it gives you.

However for the Bruce Lee look, no way do you need it! Just get very low body fat and you will be ripped. To get that lean it's 80% diet. Do some cardio empty stomach when you can, low intensity longer duration of choice the machine dosen't really matter, but the stairmaster pays off big time.

Just watching what you eat, the type of training you do with some martial arts done 3 times a week should get you that look.

If you want a diet to get you crazy lean go to rxmuscle.com and look up Dave Palumbo's keto diet. Super easy to follow, but the 1st 2 weeks can be hell for some, But if you follow that diet you won't need to do martial arts for the extra calorie burning. It would even overtrain you if you hit the weights too hard. But calisthnetics (sp?) isn't really that high intensity wise so maybe you could pull it off.

Is this getting more clear?

The problem I have with cardio is I can't seem to do more than about an hour a week (if that) without it becoming catabolic to muscle growth. I begin to lose muscle and gain fat with too much aerobics basically.

The calisthenics are just an added supplement to burn more calories without going overboard with aerobics exercises. The central work out involves resistance with both weights and my own body. I am almost as muscular as bruce lee was when he was young but not as low in body fat. He probably had about 3-4% lower body fat than I do. I am guessing he was somewhere around 7% whereas I am somewhere between 10-11%.

Also, is the myth about rest period necessarily true? If you're not doing extremely heavy weights is that 48 hour rest period really necessary? What is a good way to alternate exercises so you can do something everyday without overworking any one group of muscles? Upper body work out one day and lower body the next? What about overtraining the abs by doing ab work outs every day? Is this an issue or just hyped up?

Even if you can just manage 20 minutes of cardio after weights it can still make a difference. If you have a dog, go for a walk before breakfast...

An upper/lower body routine could work in your case. You could train on Monday, Tuesday then take wednesday off and train again on Thursday and Friday. Do you have access to a gym before I lay out specific excercises? Or tell me what home stuff you have.

The whole recovery time period is very individual. Typically the less hard you train the often you can. I only most muscle groups once a week. But sleep and nutrition are huge factors here and it's something you must do very consistently.

Just give me an idea of how tall you are, weight, age, body type (gain fat easily, skinny guy who can't gain weight...) type of job (physical, stuff like that to thing of methods best suited for those needs.

Funny you mention Bruce Lee, they just had a show on superhumanradio about his training. Here's the link: http://www.superhumanradio.com/

Today I added more carbs pre and post work out. I threw in a little more kale before the work out, some avocado and sweet potato with lots of butter afterwards, and all meals with added protein of course. Fish, whey, eggs, etc.

What I am doing currently is going very slow with incorporating cardio-type calisthenics into the end of the work out as an extra metabolic boost. Jumping jacks, mountain climbers, etc. But I really do not want to overdo it because for some reason I lose muscle and gain fat with too much cardio, especially if I am not taking in 3000+ calories a day.

To answer your other questions. Height 5'10, weight currently is about 153, goal weight might be 10 pounds heavier (in muscle) if possible. Age mid-20s.

I would avoid the avocatos and butter post workout. Save the avocato as a fat source to add to a protein source so you have a good protein fat meal there. Another protein fat meal could be whey protein with natural peanut butter, then later on up to 6 whole eggs mixed with some splenda and cinnamon.

I still don't know what kind of equipment you have but I would train doing antagonist sets. A set of dumbell presses for chest followed by a set of underhand barbell rowing... You would do the dumbell presses then without rest the barbell row. Rest 30 seconds and repeat. A set of pullups followed by a set of dumbell presses for shoulders and so on..

does that sound like something you would like to do? It creates lots of lactic acid and your body pumps out lots of GH in turn. A workout like that would not need much if any cardio if you diet is spot on and I can't stress that enough...

10lbs of muscle at your given stats should no way take more than 2 months and that's being conservative if you train hard and rest properly. 10lbs could be yours if you start creatine even faster even though I don't find it's necessary. Just letting you know what your options are.

I've actually been considering purchasing a pull up bar I saw on sale at dicks sporting goods. I doubt I can currently do more than about 8 reps at a time but I am sure even that much will help with strength gains. Can you clarify why I shouldn't eat avocado and butter post workout again? I am slightly confused on that.

These other exercises you mention sound like something I would definitely consider challenging myself with. I do need the proper equipment though. Currently I lack a bench and am basically using free weights and doing some dumbell presses from the floor, which might be useless for all I know. Which is why I am doing an assortment of other exercises. What I have is basically two adjustable dumbells. Currently I use them at between 40-50 pounds, depending on the exercise.

A pull up bar will help you out big time. Once you can't get any more reps, just propel yourself to the top position or put a chain under the bar (just don't smash your head on the door frame) and do some reps where you simply lower yourself down to the starting position. You can buy a pull up bar that puts you away from the door frame, it would be better.

Check out ebay or an online store if you can't find one. They used to go for $30 at a store I used to work at, plus it had the option of doing the pull ups in a neutral position (palms facing each other). so with that bar you can do pull up (hand over the bar or pronated) chin up (hands under the bar) and neutral grip pull ups. If you can get to say sets of 12 reps each with just those excercises you will have some kick ass development. Make sure you lower in 3 seconds and go up 1 second. The tempo you can play with many ways to keep you gaining all the time. So get one of those bars or go to a park and do them there!

Post workout is typically best having protein and carbs. Post workout is when your body is ready to take in carbs at a very effective rate so take advantage of this. NO fats. The fats slow the absorption of the amino acids. This is another of those debatable bodybuilding type topics but I would stick with that method. Besides if you have at a good 75 grams of carbs and 40 grams or so of protein your cals when you add the hidden fasts are up there. So keep the fats for the remainder of your meals, you will have plenty of time to get in your healyth, muscle building fats in the last 3 meals.

I hope you don't just have dumbells that go from 40-50. I mean for a dumbell curl, that is a lot of weight if you do it properly. If that's the case, how do you warm up? If you have dumbells that can go in 2.5 lbs increments from say 5-50lbs you should be fine. A cheap bench could be a swiss ball for dumbell and fly movements and many other uses. Add the chin up bar and you have a decent home gym. Gargae sales are your friend as well to buy some plates for cheap. Some deals on ebay as well.

If you have nothing lighter than the dumbells for now you can use water jugs. I'm sure youtube has all kinds of home training you can do with very little. I'm sure if you spend some time there you can find some stuff to tide you over in the meantime, just try not to spend too much time watching monkeys throw shit at people or doing the nasty...

Here's what I am currently doing and how I have switched my regimen up a little, as per your suggestions.

For glucose energy I eat a small amount of carbs both before and after work out, while maintaining low carb consumption throughout the rest of the day. So before work out I will eat a bowl of greek yogurt with blueberries and some powdered cocoa added which adds up to about 25 grams of carbs, which I am hoping is enough for energy metabolism. If not I will experiment further. I also have my whey protein shake with goat milk before work out, goat milk has another 10 grams of carbs in it.

After work out I typically eat a sweet potato and some kale with another protein shake. Throughout the day I resume my high fat, low carb consumption throughout my meals.

What I have changed with the work out regimen is that I am trying to isolate specific muscles on specific days, this way I can avoid rest period and work out in some way almost every day. So for example today I worked biceps, legs traps and tomorrow I will do chest, forearms , abs and some calisthenics (which I am taking to doing every day now, with the exception of pushups and sit ups, which I do only every other day). I always incorporate the slight cardio exercises toward the end of work outs. I amnot sure why, it just feels right to me. Those exercises consist of jumping jacks, mountain climbers squat thrusts and other assorted squats and jumps. I am still working everything out so It is just a preliminary experiment really. I plan to go look at the pull up bars too.

[Ark]

From Medscape Medical News
Creatine May Improve Working Memory and Intelligence
Laurie Barclay, MD
Authors and Disclosures
Print This

Aug. 15, 2003 -- Supplementation with 5 g creatine daily improved working memory and intelligence, both tasks which require speed of processing, according to the results of a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial published in the Oct. 22 issue of the Proceedings of the Royal Society: Biological Sciences.

"The level of creatine supplementation chosen was 5 g per day as this is a level that has previously been shown to increase brain creatine levels. This level is comparable to that taken to boost sports fitness," lead author Caroline Rae, from the University of Sydney in Australia, says in a news release. "Vegetarians or vegans were chosen for the study as carnivores and omnivores obtain a variable level of creatine depending on the amount and type of meat they eat — although to reach the level of supplementation in this experiment would involve eating around 2 kg of meat a day!"

Previous studies, as well as anecdotal reports, suggest that creatine supplementation can increase sports performance and could potentially be useful in treating neurological, neuromuscular and atherosclerotic disease. Brain creatine levels have been shown to correlate with improved recognition memory and with reduced mental fatigue.

"We know that creatine plays a pivotal role in maintaining energy levels in the brain," says Dr. Rae. "So it was a reasonable hypothesis that supplementing a diet with creatine could assist brain function."

In a cross-over design trial, 45 young adult vegetarians were randomized to receive creatine supplementation, 5 g daily, or placebo for six weeks, followed by a six week washout period and then six weeks of the alternate treatment.

Creatine supplementation had a positive effect ( P < .0001) compared with placebo on both working memory, as measured with the backward digit span test, and on intelligence, as measured with Ravens Advanced Progressive Matrices.

"The results were clear with both our experimental groups and in both test scenarios: creatine supplementation gave a significant measurable boost to brain power," Dr. Rae says. "These findings underline a dynamic and significant role of brain energy capacity in influencing brain performance. Increasing the energy available for computation increases the power of the brain and this is reflected directly in improved general ability."

Long-term supplementation with creatine may have potential adverse effects on glucose homeostasis, as well as on body odor. "To be frank taking the supplement can make you a considerably less 'fragrant' person," says Dr. Rae. "However, creatine supplementation may be of use to those requiring boosted mental performance in the short term — for example, university students."

The Australian National Health and Medical Research Council supported this study.

Proc Royal Soc. 2003

Reviewed by Gary D. Vogin, MD

[nowayout]

Creatine also increases DHT, which can lead to hair loss.

[TheFountain]

Creatine also increases DHT, which can lead to hair loss.

This can be countered by taking soy isoflavones I think, which have been proven to be a good DHT obstructing supplement.

[ritch]

Creatine also increases DHT, which can lead to hair loss.

This can be countered by taking soy isoflavones I think, which have been proven to be a good DHT obstructing supplement.

Dear lord don't get me started on that crap called soy lol... And no creatine does not increase dht levels, no offense but that's false information. If it did to any reasonable level I'm pretty sure I would have heard about that. I don't want to sound like a smart ass but I live and breath bodybuilding and really doubt there's any truth to this dht tale I've read twice in this thread.

I will take the .000001% chance that I'm wrong on this and appologize it that's the case lol...

[nowayout]

Creatine also increases DHT, which can lead to hair loss.

This can be countered by taking soy isoflavones I think, which have been proven to be a good DHT obstructing supplement.

Dear lord don't get me started on that crap called soy lol... And no creatine does not increase dht levels, no offense but that's false information. If it did to any reasonable level I'm pretty sure I would have heard about that. I don't want to sound like a smart ass but I live and breath bodybuilding and really doubt there's any truth to this dht tale I've read twice in this thread.

I will take the .000001% chance that I'm wrong on this and appologize it that's the case lol...

I agree 100% with you about soy.

You are remarkably ill-informed about creatine, though, but I guess that is understandable given that the study is recent. It did make headlines, though.

Clin J Sport Med. 2009 Sep;19(5):399-404.


Three weeks of creatine monohydrate supplementation affects dihydrotestosterone to testosterone ratio in college-aged rugby players.
van der Merwe J, Brooks NE, Myburgh KH.

Department of Physiological Sciences, Stellenbosch University, Stellenbosch, South Africa.

Comment in:

• Clin J Sport Med. 2010 May;20(3):220; author reply 220-2.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: This study investigated resting concentrations of selected androgens after 3 weeks of creatine supplementation in male rugby players. It was hypothesized that the ratio of dihydrotestosterone (DHT, a biologically more active androgen) to testosterone (T) would change with creatine supplementation.

DESIGN: Double-blind placebo-controlled crossover study with a 6-week washout period.

SETTING: Rugby Institute in South Africa.

PARTICIPANTS: College-aged rugby players (n = 20) volunteered for the study, which took place during the competitive season.

INTERVENTIONS: Subjects loaded with creatine (25 g/day creatine with 25 g/day glucose) or placebo (50 g/day glucose) for 7 days followed by 14 days of maintenance (5 g/day creatine with 25 g/day glucose or 30 g/day glucose placebo).

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Serum T and DHT were measured and ratio calculated at baseline and after 7 days and 21 days of creatine supplementation (or placebo). Body composition measurements were taken at each time point.

RESULTS: After 7 days of creatine loading, or a further 14 days of creatine maintenance dose, serum T levels did not change. However, levels of DHT increased by 56% after 7 days of creatine loading and remained 40% above baseline after 14 days maintenance (P < 0.001). The ratio of DHT:T also increased by 36% after 7 days creatine supplementation and remained elevated by 22% after the maintenance dose (P < 0.01).

CONCLUSIONS: Creatine supplementation may, in part, act through an increased rate of conversion of T to DHT. Further investigation is warranted as a result of the high frequency of individuals using creatine supplementation and the long-term safety of alterations in circulating androgen composition. STATEMENT OF

CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Although creatine is a widely used ergogenic aid, the mechanisms of action are incompletely understood, particularly in relation to dihydrotestosterone, and therefore the long-term clinical safety cannot be guaranteed.

Edited by viveutvivas, 28 November 2010 - 05:46 PM.

[TheFountain]

Creatine also increases DHT, which can lead to hair loss.

This can be countered by taking soy isoflavones I think, which have been proven to be a good DHT obstructing supplement.

Dear lord don't get me started on that crap called soy lol... And no creatine does not increase dht levels, no offense but that's false information. If it did to any reasonable level I'm pretty sure I would have heard about that. I don't want to sound like a smart ass but I live and breath bodybuilding and really doubt there's any truth to this dht tale I've read twice in this thread.

I will take the .000001% chance that I'm wrong on this and appologize it that's the case lol...

Not soy, soy isoflavones. There is a difference. The latter has been proven in studies to reduce DHT levels.

[nowayout]

Creatine also increases DHT, which can lead to hair loss.

This can be countered by taking soy isoflavones I think, which have been proven to be a good DHT obstructing supplement.

Dear lord don't get me started on that crap called soy lol... And no creatine does not increase dht levels, no offense but that's false information. If it did to any reasonable level I'm pretty sure I would have heard about that. I don't want to sound like a smart ass but I live and breath bodybuilding and really doubt there's any truth to this dht tale I've read twice in this thread.

I will take the .000001% chance that I'm wrong on this and appologize it that's the case lol...

Not soy, soy isoflavones. There is a difference. The latter has been proven in studies to reduce DHT levels.

Aren't they the ones who will also cause you to grow manboobs?