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Phosphatidylserine

phosphatidylserine sharp-ps leci-ps phsophatides

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#1 #1hit

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Posted 09 February 2011 - 04:20 AM


Hi everyone, I'm currently a junior in college and have been encountering some adversity in keeping my mind mentally refreshed enough to stay on top of my courseload, speak for presentations, and keep everything straight in my mind, so I figured that for a boost I could try phospatidylserine, and had a few questions regarding it. First of all, I've read that there is controversy around whether a plant version, which encompasses every PS supplement on the market after 2008, is effective at all. Has anyone had experience with it? Did it help with cognition/memory/concentration/anything?

Also, I've read that it can lower the amount of cortisol in the body by a spread of 30-70 percent. I'm not a doctor, but I do know that cortisol is released during the stress response, and while it is destructive in the long term, it can be helpful with inflammation, etc in the short haul. If I were to use this supplement regularly, would its tweaking with cortisol mess anything up long term?

And lastly for now, are there any long term side effects to taking this supplement? Thanks everyone for your insights, you guys have got to collectively be the smartest forum out there.

Just as a sidenote, I had this same post listed under the general supplements forum, but felt that this sub-forum was more appropriate for phosphatidylserine.
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#2 longevitynow

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 03:26 AM

Like fish oils, it buffers excessive releases of cortisol and adrenaline when stressed. IMO and experience, unlike sedative drugs, these 2 compounds don't lower baseline levels of stimulating neurotransmitters. I take it before bed and it increases my dream recall. Long-term it it supposed to regenerate the hippocampus, but doses needed seem to be pretty high and it is rather pricey. I'd suggest maybe 1 before bed for sleep enhancement and hippo-regeneration and looking at some other agents for what you are looking for. IMO other nootropics are more cost effective, but PS may have some unique properties. You can't knock hippo-regeneration...
And pregnenolone might have some similar hippo-regenerative properties for less money, but that is speculative (but hinted at in the research).
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#3 #1hit

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 04:58 AM

Like fish oils, it buffers excessive releases of cortisol and adrenaline when stressed. IMO and experience, unlike sedative drugs, these 2 compounds don't lower baseline levels of stimulating neurotransmitters. I take it before bed and it increases my dream recall. Long-term it it supposed to regenerate the hippocampus, but doses needed seem to be pretty high and it is rather pricey. I'd suggest maybe 1 before bed for sleep enhancement and hippo-regeneration and looking at some other agents for what you are looking for. IMO other nootropics are more cost effective, but PS may have some unique properties. You can't knock hippo-regeneration...
And pregnenolone might have some similar hippo-regenerative properties for less money, but that is speculative (but hinted at in the research).


Thank you for the information! So PS will protect the body from being overloaded with stress hormones, but won't meddle with them if they are at normal levels? Also, I've heard alot about the benefits of this supplement, but this is the first time i heard about its hippocampus regenerating properties, just another reason to give it a shot.

That's interesting that alot of people use it as a sleep aid or just out of chance take it before they go to sleep, and one of its listed side effects are insomnia. I guess it really depends on whos taking it.

#4 #1hit

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 04:32 AM

bump. So I did some shopping around and discovered what i'm assuming everyone else already knows... PS really isn't cost effective at all. My question now is, does anyone on this forum use this supplement and does it have tangible benefits?
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#5 rwac

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 04:44 AM

My experience with it has been negative. I wanted to take it to reduce high cortisol levels, but it gives me brain-fog.

You could try taking lecithin, which includes all the phospholipids like PS, PC, etc.

#6 MrSpud

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 04:34 PM

I personally use PS supplements. I like to take them the same time as I take Fish Oil capsules because in the brain the DHA tends to be in a form where it is combined with PS and/or other phospholipids. There are some pricy supplements available where you can buy DHA already chemically combined with PS ( see http://www.naturalpr...cts-memory.aspx if you want a starting place to look into these ), but I figure the body can form this a bit by itself if you take them at the same time (in theory it makes sense to me).

The research on PS by itself is all based on old research on bovine PS extracted from Cows brains. Cows brains aren't used anymore by anyone for PS because of the potential for accidental contamination with BSE prions(madcows disease). Pretty much anything from the most infectious parts of cows (brains, nervous tissue, etc...) is off limits, not really anything to do specific with PS, just not a viable raw material source anymore.

Anyways, PS now comes from soy and the evidence for efficacy is borrowed science from the old bovine sourced PS. Bovine PS is very similar but not identical to soy PS. Bovine PS is proven to have beneficial effects, soy PS isn't really proven, just theoretically given the benefit of the doubt since Bovine PS isn't available anymore and noone wants to pay for repeating the studies with Soy PS.

PS isn't usually in lecithin. Lecithin usually just contains PC, PI, PE (Phosphatidyl Choline, Inosinol, Ethanolamine). They are all most likely good for you and are very likely not bad for you. Phospholipids all play roles in cell membrane formation. Some of them love to form membranes as thin as one molecule thick, so it is believable to me that they can do the things people say they can do.

Edited by MrSpud, 12 February 2011 - 04:44 PM.

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#7 pamojja

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 05:11 PM

You could also choose some foods which are naturally high in PS.


Food PS Content in mg/100 g

Bovine brain 713
Atlantic mackerel 480
Chicken heart 414
Atlantic herring 360
Eel 335
Offal (average value) 305
Pig's spleen 239
Pig's kidney 218
Tuna 194
Chicken leg, with skin, without bone 134
Chicken liver 123
White beans 107
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#8 #1hit

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 05:42 PM

My experience with it has been negative. I wanted to take it to reduce high cortisol levels, but it gives me brain-fog.

You could try taking lecithin, which includes all the phospholipids like PS, PC, etc.


Sorry that the supplement had undesirable side effects. Did it atleast work for reducing cortisol/ lowering stress?

I personally use PS supplements. I like to take them the same time as I take Fish Oil capsules because in the brain the DHA tends to be in a form where it is combined with PS and/or other phospholipids. There are some pricy supplements available where you can buy DHA already chemically combined with PS ( see http://www.naturalpr...cts-memory.aspx if you want a starting place to look into these ), but I figure the body can form this a bit by itself if you take them at the same time (in theory it makes sense to me).

The research on PS by itself is all based on old research on bovine PS extracted from Cows brains. Cows brains aren't used anymore by anyone for PS because of the potential for accidental contamination with BSE prions(madcows disease). Pretty much anything from the most infectious parts of cows (brains, nervous tissue, etc...) is off limits, not really anything to do specific with PS, just not a viable raw material source anymore.

Anyways, PS now comes from soy and the evidence for efficacy is borrowed science from the old bovine sourced PS. Bovine PS is very similar but not identical to soy PS. Bovine PS is proven to have beneficial effects, soy PS isn't really proven, just theoretically given the benefit of the doubt since Bovine PS isn't available anymore and noone wants to pay for repeating the studies with Soy PS.

PS isn't usually in lecithin. Lecithin usually just contains PC, PI, PE (Phosphatidyl Choline, Inosinol, Ethanolamine). They are all most likely good for you and are very likely not bad for you. Phospholipids all play roles in cell membrane formation. Some of them love to form membranes as thin as one molecule thick, so it is believable to me that they can do the things people say they can do.


The draught of much empirical data evaluating the efficacy of soy-based PS definitely makes it harder to justify putting up the formidable price tag for the supplement, but going off positive reviews of people who buy the supplements from online retailers, i figure that it at least has some effect, sorta like how plant proteins have different configurations of amino acids than animal proteins but still are used by the body. Of course that could all be the placebo effect, and people could be reporting these because of the faith they've built up reading the studies that use the bovine source, but hey.

Do you have a preferred brand that you use? and besides the constellation of benefits purported by different studies, do you personally notice positive effects of supplementation with PS?

#9 MrSpud

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 06:16 PM

I believe that PS does something beneficial for me for my memory. I used to use Leci-PS in softgels, now I use Sharp-PS in softgels. I've also considered getting the powdered versions in bulk just to be cheaper, but haven't done so yet. The Leci-PS was pretty much the first commercially available soy PS. It was pretty much the only one available for years. Now there are others available, such as the Sharp-PS.

The Sharp-PS seems to be a bit more stable in the softgels than the Leci-PS was. I believe this is mainly due to them adding polyglycitol as a plasticizer to the softgel shell. Polyglycitol has less of a moisture dynamic than a stratight glycerine plasticized softgel does (which is what the Leci-PS softgels used). Pretty much all phospholipids can absorb moisture from the capsule shell. Then the capsule seeks more moisture by sucking it out of the air (as long as the relative humidity is above 45% or so) and then more ends up available to the capsule fill material. When phospholipids absorb about 2% or so of moisture they start a slow degredation where they end up breaking down into just serine, choline, inositol (i.e. not phosphatides anymore). Anyways, because polyglycitol is less moisture loving than glycerine this whole moisture transfer dynamic is slowed down making it a bit more stable. Probably the powder would be just as stable though since it doesn't come into contact with a capsule shell (which contains moisture) as long as you keep your powder dry.

Edited by MrSpud, 12 February 2011 - 06:35 PM.

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#10 #1hit

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 03:26 AM

You could also choose some foods which are naturally high in PS.


Food PS Content in mg/100 g

Bovine brain 713
Atlantic mackerel 480
Chicken heart 414
Atlantic herring 360
Eel 335
Offal (average value) 305
Pig's spleen 239
Pig's kidney 218
Tuna 194
Chicken leg, with skin, without bone 134
Chicken liver 123
White beans 107



Is it possible to be deficient in PS/ not take full advantage of it because dietary consumption is inadequate? Because I don't eat anything on that list lol... would you happen to know what cow brains taste like?

I believe that PS does something beneficial for me for my memory. I used to use Leci-PS in softgels, now I use Sharp-PS in softgels. I've also considered getting the powdered versions in bulk just to be cheaper, but haven't done so yet. The Leci-PS was pretty much the first commercially available soy PS. It was pretty much the only one available for years. Now there are others available, such as the Sharp-PS.

The Sharp-PS seems to be a bit more stable in the softgels than the Leci-PS was. I believe this is mainly due to them adding polyglycitol as a plasticizer to the softgel shell. Polyglycitol has less of a moisture dynamic than a stratight glycerine plasticized softgel does (which is what the Leci-PS softgels used). Pretty much all phospholipids can absorb moisture from the capsule shell. Then the capsule seeks more moisture by sucking it out of the air (as long as the relative humidity is above 45% or so) and then more ends up available to the capsule fill material. When phospholipids absorb about 2% or so of moisture they start a slow degredation where they end up breaking down into just serine, choline, inositol (i.e. not phosphatides anymore). Anyways, because polyglycitol is less moisture loving than glycerine this whole moisture transfer dynamic is slowed down making it a bit more stable. Probably the powder would be just as stable though since it doesn't come into contact with a capsule shell (which contains moisture) as long as you keep your powder dry.


Thats good that the makers of PS are adapting their product to help preserve the properties of PS and fend off any premature degradation of it. do you take it in the morning or in evenings? Its hard to reason when the best time to take it would be because it is used by people for stress, sleep, and improved cognitive function, but i would probably take it at different times depending on which of these benefits i would want to capitalize on.

#11 MrSpud

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 02:48 PM

I usually take PS in the morning with my fish oil, but sometimes I take it again in the evening along with more fish oil.

#12 Moddy2012

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:41 PM

Hi everyone, I'm currently a junior in college and have been encountering some adversity in keeping my mind mentally refreshed enough to stay on top of my courseload, speak for presentations, and keep everything straight in my mind, so I figured that for a boost I could try phospatidylserine, and had a few questions regarding it. First of all, I've read that there is controversy around whether a plant version, which encompasses every PS supplement on the market after 2008, is effective at all. Has anyone had experience with it? Did it help with cognition/memory/concentration/anything?

Also, I've read that it can lower the amount of cortisol in the body by a spread of 30-70 percent. I'm not a doctor, but I do know that cortisol is released during the stress response, and while it is destructive in the long term, it can be helpful with inflammation, etc in the short haul. If I were to use this supplement regularly, would its tweaking with cortisol mess anything up long term?

And lastly for now, are there any long term side effects to taking this supplement? Thanks everyone for your insights, you guys have got to collectively be the smartest forum out there.

Just as a sidenote, I had this same post listed under the general supplements forum, but felt that this sub-forum was more appropriate for phosphatidylserine.


Complete garbage, another overrated Nutraceutical with no proven benefit, if you really want to improve focus you are going to need a real pharmaceutical grade medication like Modafinil, Ritalin, Adderall, etc.
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#13 #1hit

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 05:32 AM

Hi everyone, I'm currently a junior in college and have been encountering some adversity in keeping my mind mentally refreshed enough to stay on top of my courseload, speak for presentations, and keep everything straight in my mind, so I figured that for a boost I could try phospatidylserine, and had a few questions regarding it. First of all, I've read that there is controversy around whether a plant version, which encompasses every PS supplement on the market after 2008, is effective at all. Has anyone had experience with it? Did it help with cognition/memory/concentration/anything?

Also, I've read that it can lower the amount of cortisol in the body by a spread of 30-70 percent. I'm not a doctor, but I do know that cortisol is released during the stress response, and while it is destructive in the long term, it can be helpful with inflammation, etc in the short haul. If I were to use this supplement regularly, would its tweaking with cortisol mess anything up long term?

And lastly for now, are there any long term side effects to taking this supplement? Thanks everyone for your insights, you guys have got to collectively be the smartest forum out there.

Just as a sidenote, I had this same post listed under the general supplements forum, but felt that this sub-forum was more appropriate for phosphatidylserine.


Complete garbage, another overrated Nutraceutical with no proven benefit, if you really want to improve focus you are going to need a real pharmaceutical grade medication like Modafinil, Ritalin, Adderall, etc.



When you say unproven, do you mean in its current soy-based form or as a supplement in any form?

#14 Moddy2012

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 04:22 AM

Hi everyone, I'm currently a junior in college and have been encountering some adversity in keeping my mind mentally refreshed enough to stay on top of my courseload, speak for presentations, and keep everything straight in my mind, so I figured that for a boost I could try phospatidylserine, and had a few questions regarding it. First of all, I've read that there is controversy around whether a plant version, which encompasses every PS supplement on the market after 2008, is effective at all. Has anyone had experience with it? Did it help with cognition/memory/concentration/anything?

Also, I've read that it can lower the amount of cortisol in the body by a spread of 30-70 percent. I'm not a doctor, but I do know that cortisol is released during the stress response, and while it is destructive in the long term, it can be helpful with inflammation, etc in the short haul. If I were to use this supplement regularly, would its tweaking with cortisol mess anything up long term?

And lastly for now, are there any long term side effects to taking this supplement? Thanks everyone for your insights, you guys have got to collectively be the smartest forum out there.

Just as a sidenote, I had this same post listed under the general supplements forum, but felt that this sub-forum was more appropriate for phosphatidylserine.


Complete garbage, another overrated Nutraceutical with no proven benefit, if you really want to improve focus you are going to need a real pharmaceutical grade medication like Modafinil, Ritalin, Adderall, etc.



When you say unproven, do you mean in its current soy-based form or as a supplement in any form?


Its a nutraceutical supplement, its not intended to treat or diagnose a disease or ailment. I have found nutraceuticals overall to be useless rubbish just used by hucksters to get your money. They all promise "natural" cures, if natural cures really worked than Western medicine would no longer exist.
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#15 EricR

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 07:07 PM

Readers of this thread might like to watch this video where Dr Parris Kidd talks about PS and other brain nutrients. It's about 30 minutes long.


Edited by EricR, 21 February 2011 - 07:14 PM.

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#16 Anewlife

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:43 PM

I watched that interview, it seems PS, Choline and Omega 3 are the building blocks of the brain.
I think its best to get these from food sources.
Salmon/fish oil, Egg yolk, Tuna/Atlantic Mackeral.


PS supposedly reduces cortisol level, as its a food nutrient like omega 3 if you have bad effects I would not rule it out. Perhaps a lower dose over time is needed.

The problem with suppliments is people want to use a high dose for quick benefits usually this high dose is bad to sustain.

This was evident when people 1st started taking fish oil. Studies claimed 2g per day, people including myself noticed larger benefits from 6-12g per day and we all thought we were doing the right thing, then supplement companies even said to take up to 6g per day, although after a few months as the bodies levels became too high we had to stop or reduce our dosage. Side effects were lowered libido, eye problems, brain fog.

Some suppliments are best to take at a low dose over a long period of time (months) if you are experiencing negative effects it could be the dosage.

Seeing as though a can of tuna contains about 200mg of PS I think 100-200mg per day might be a good amount to sustain if you are experiencing negative effects.

Edited by Anewlife, 26 December 2012 - 07:45 PM.


#17 Climactic

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 05:44 AM

Two recent studies showing PS working for ADHD:

2013: http://onlinelibrary.../jhn.12090/full (2 month study)
2012: http://www.sciencedi...924933811000952 (30 week study)

Don't expect magic with low doses or within days. I will test it.

Edited by Climactic, 22 April 2013 - 05:45 AM.

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#18 KoolK3n

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:53 PM

Two recent studies showing PS working for ADHD:

2013: http://onlinelibrary.../jhn.12090/full (2 month study)
2012: http://www.sciencedi...924933811000952 (30 week study)

Don't expect magic with low doses or within days. I will test it.


How did it turn out?

#19 KoolK3n

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:18 PM

I will test it.

I meant your trial with PS

#20 Busaum

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Posted 03 September 2015 - 06:05 PM

You could also choose some foods which are naturally high in PS.


Food PS Content in mg/100 g

Bovine brain 713
Atlantic mackerel 480
Chicken heart 414
Atlantic herring 360
Eel 335
Offal (average value) 305
Pig's spleen 239
Pig's kidney 218
Tuna 194
Chicken leg, with skin, without bone 134
Chicken liver 123
White beans 107

That list was updated:

Food PS Content in mg/100 g

Soy lecithin 5900 [19]

Bovine brain 713

Atlantic mackerel 480

Chicken heart 414

Atlantic herring 360

Eel 335

Offal (average value) 305

Pig's spleen 239

Pig's kidney 218

Tuna 194

Chicken leg, with skin, without bone 134

Chicken liver 123

White beans 107

 

The cited study[19] says:

 

Closely related to PE is phosphatidylserine (PS), foundin soybean lecithin by Van Handel (35). Negishi et al' (36) reported 5.9% PS in a commercial soybean lecithin and Nielson (37) found PS in difficultly extractable soybeanphosphatides.


Edited by Busaum, 03 September 2015 - 06:38 PM.


#21 pamojja

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Posted 03 September 2015 - 08:46 PM

 

You could also choose some foods which are naturally high in PS.


Food PS Content in mg/100 g

Bovine brain 713
...

 

That list was updated:

Food PS Content in mg/100 g

Soy lecithin 5900 [19]

Bovine brain 713

...

 

Actually wasn't updated. But wanted to point out what's possible to get from least processed real food - and therefore omitted the lecithin in my wikipedia quote.



#22 BasicBiO

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Posted 30 November 2015 - 03:55 AM

I'm happy to report that bulk PS from PowderCity is working for me nicely and I am getting similar effects as #1Hit (the original poster). I am also taking krill oil, ashwagandha, uridine, MB (200mcg), b-complex, with 15mg of sublingual pregnenolone in the AM.  Mag Threonate, GABA + agmatine + niacin before bed.

 

I have battled with anxiety and low DA symptoms for a few years now and this stack (one week in) really is an improvement over the uridine/DHA stack that I have been using for over a year.

 

After reading some old threads about PS, I decided to finally try it. It was on my supplement wish list for years and Im glad I finally tried it.  It also seems that the price of PS and krill oil have gotten a bit better since some of the 2009-2011 threads(and economic conditions are certainly better), so perhaps renewed interest is viable.

 

 


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#23 numberg

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Posted 01 December 2015 - 10:40 PM

I'd like to add that there are many studies now that use the soy-based phosphatidylserine, including the one previously linked concerning ADHD http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23495677, which show its efficacy is similar, although I'm not aware of any studies that directly compare the two. Here is a study, http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25058912, that focuses on squid(!) derived PS but also notes that while "SQ-PS administration produced significant dose-dependent improvements in escape latency for finding the platform in the Morris water maze in the aged rats[...], Soy-PS administration also exhibited comparable improvements with SQ-PS."


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