13 replies to this topic

[Sillewater]

• Kidney International (2005) 67, 1371–1380; doi:10.1111/j.1523-1755.2005.00214.x Mechanisms of antioxidant and pro-oxidant effects of -lipoic acid in the diabetic and nondiabetic kidney Faizah Bhatti, Richard W Mankhey, Laureano Asico, Mark T Quinn, William J Welch and Christine Maric

This paper above has been bothering me for a while and in my searches of the literature couldn't find much more information. Based on many measurements of kidney function the authors found that at 30mg/kg of Alpha Lipoic Acid, it had an adverse effect on the kidneys on non-diabetic male Sprague-Dawley rats. Attached is a table of the results and as you can see in non-diabetics the kidneys got worse.

For those of us with healthy kidneys, could this be a risk?

Attached Files

•  lakidney.jpg   40.49KB   59 downloads

[Sillewater]

If the damaging effects are due to the pro-oxidant effect due to the reduced form then a racemic mixture may be even riskier then a pure R+ (thread).

[Ark]

Another reason to cycle everything.....

[Sillewater]

Another reason to cycle everything.....

Never understood cycling. You either take or don't take.

[Sillewater]

Some more effects on the kidney. In (1) lipoic acid seems to have an effect on kidney size (increasing it) however there were no histopathological changes (unlike what I posted up top).

References
1. Regul Toxicol Pharmacol. 2006 Oct;46(1):29-41. Epub 2006 Aug 14.Safety evaluation of alpha-lipoic acid (ALA).Cremer DR, Rabeler R, Roberts A, Lynch B.

[Ark]

Another reason to cycle everything.....

Never understood cycling. You either take or don't take.

Cycling reffering to on off cycle, example some people take creatine 3 months on and then a few months off.

[SocietyOfMind]

What is the corresponding dose size in humans? Isn't 30mg/kg quite large?

[niner]

Another reason to cycle everything.....

Never understood cycling. You either take or don't take.

I don't think this example supports cycling at all. If something is bad for you, you don't take it, period. Cycling is useful in situations where you don't want to become too acclimated to a compound. For example, if a compound induces the enzyme that metabolizes it (a common situation), then taking breaks might allow the induction to "wear off". Cycling is no magic bullet, since a lot of these enzyme inductions come on quite rapidly, and don't necessarily fade as fast. It's not unusual for drug studies to be limited to "drug-naive" patients, i.e. people who have never in their life used the compound. Think about heroin addicts who spend the rest of their lives chasing the feeling they got the first time, never to find it again. Some junkies try cycling for this, but it never really works.

What is the corresponding dose size in humans? Isn't 30mg/kg quite large?

Yes, that's a pretty large dose, at least by the standards of most of us. It's 2.1g for a 70kg person, not accounting for interspecies scaling. If you apply the rat/human factor of 1/6 (I think that's it) then it's a pretty common dose. It's not clear to me that this particular scaling factor fully applies in this particular case, but it might. Some diabetics take 1.8 grams/day, FWIW. Another question mark in this study is whether or not rat kidneys are comparable to human kidneys. Nevertheless, it's another nail in the coffin for lipoic acid as far as I'm concerned. It's great if you're diabetic, but there are too many issues with it for my taste.

[pycnogenol]

Not about the kidneys but still interesting...

High-Dose Alpha-Lipoic Acid Has Antiobesity Effects in Rats

http://www.life-enha...late.asp?id=999

"2.5 g per day of alpha-lipoic acid for a human is a very high dose and is definitely supraphysiologic (far beyond any conceivable dietary intake). Though the mice had no obvious toxicity,
humans may metabolize such large amounts of alpha-lipoic acid differently. Originally, the nutrient was investigated as an antidote to certain mushroom poisonings in humans. It was very
effective, but at doses of 6–8 g per day, decreased survival resulted, with liver mitochondrial damage. Hence, any experimentation with high-dose alpha lipoic acid is just that, an experiment,
and is therefore best done under the close supervision of a nutritionally expert physician. Durk (Pearson) is currently experimenting with 2 g of alpha-lipoic acid per day and has found it
helpful in reducing his weight. Sandy (Shaw) is taking 1.25 g of alpha-lipoic acid daily."

I currently take 600 mg of lipoic acid.

Edited by pycnogenol, 23 May 2011 - 03:17 PM.

[SocietyOfMind]

Nevertheless, it's another nail in the coffin for lipoic acid as far as I'm concerned. It's great if you're diabetic, but there are too many issues with it for my taste.

What other issues are you thinking of? I've heard of the biotin issue, which I thought had been addressed (e.g. Geronova's response).

I take 75mg R-ALA and 75mg R-dihydro-ALA daily, and am not diabetic or pre-diabetic.

[rvogels1]

I'm curious to know what the "issues" with ALA are, too. I've had a hard time finding papers about detrimental consequences arising from supplementation. I don't take it for diabetic reasons, but as an anti-oxidant.

[shaggy]

I've taken R-ala for many years and currently consume 3-400mg of Na-RALA so are all interested in all the "nails in the coffin".... Over to you Niner!

[sd22]

Just adding a pretty strong hypothesis here. ALA is a strong (dithiol) chelator of heavy metals, including arsenic and mercury. Once daily ALA administration picks up and then redistributes these heavy metals. This continues ad nauseum and can cause serious damage. Of course this is hard on the kidneys since it is the kidneys that try to eliminate these metals. It has been mentioned several times on this forum (yet not given much credence as of yet) that lipoic acid should be administered on a strict schedule (every 3 hours - its half life) and not without supportive nephroprotective nutrients (ie: milk thistle) to prevent ALA from dropping in blood, subsequent metal redistribution, and eventual organ damage. Anybody questioning this should read the supportive evidence in the publications written by Andy Cutler, PhD.

Edited by sd22, 25 May 2011 - 02:56 AM.

[niner]

The 'nails in the coffin'... The first that comes to mind is the paper discussed in this thread, where it was reported that lipoic acid changed the 'state' of rats such that they would not respond normally to a CR diet, even if the CR diet was imposed much later. There's the whole issue of antioxidants counteracting the effects of exercise, which has been discussed here and here. That's a subset of the bigger question about the benefits of antioxidants in healthy people, such as this. There was yet another rat study showing lipoic acid significantly depletes SAM. Then there's the mercury mobilization issue mentioned above. I think most mercury fears are overblown, but lipoic acid does throw a monkey wrench into that equation.