42 replies to this topic

[ajnast4r]

my friends girlfriend is sitting in a hospital in a medically induced coma, with a failed liver, hoping for a transplant... caused by what the doctors have said was a 'plant based toxin from an herbal supplement'... I'm unsure what exactly she was taking, but this should serve as a warning to the many here who indiscriminately consume & combine various supplements that are poorly researched & poorly understood.

most of the senior members on this forum have steered away from the supplement world, and with good reason... because the deeper you look, the more you see how wrought with BS the industry is. its disturbing how many people here play guinea pig with various supplements... setting up regimens with 20 or 30 different substances, consuming huge amounts of resveratrol, the newest latest greatest thing no one has ever heard of, etc...

i would encourage everyone who uses supplement to have a good understanding of the scientific method, how things like greed, pride, bias & poor research methods influence results, be able to read and comprehend entire studies & not just abstracts, and most importantly: understand that supplement companies, bar none, almost always misconstrue results in the name of profit.

[pamojja]

...what the doctors have said was a 'plant based toxin from an herbal supplement'... I'm unsure what exactly she was taking,..

..that's what my docs warn me too. They advise I should drop all supplements because their benefit would anyway be mere placebo, and by the amount I take I should drop death on the spot in their opinion. But for my condition their alternatives just don't work and indeed have bad side effects. Theirs won't even work as placebo. For sure there are enough reasons to discredit supplements.

Edited by pamojja, 21 September 2011 - 09:51 PM.

[MrHappy]

Sorry to hear that.

Actually, I think what you are describing is either a product quality control issue, or insufficient knowledge about a product's toxicity - possibly in conjuction with another substance.

Take the birth control pills - yaz and yasmin, still being prescribed, despite class action lawsuits for 18 year old girls having to have their gallbladders removed.

Do you know what she was taking?

[Athanasios]

I am sorry to hear this happened. Thank you for posting this warning, as we need to hear of events such as this. Please report back, if you can, when or if the supplement in question becomes known.

Edited by Athanasios, 23 September 2011 - 03:59 AM.

[tintinet]

Thanks for the warning; my condolences for your girlfriend's dire state. Kava and comfrey, IIRC, have been liked to fulminant liver failure. I have also seen cases due to standard dose Bactrim and acetaminophen.

[maxwatt]

I wish your girlfriend a good recovery. Can you get more specific information from the doctors as to what plant based toxin was involved, or are they guessing? It would be good to be able to post a specific and creditable warning.

Liver problems? Chamomile in excessive amounts, even as tea. Pennyroyal, tansy to name some other herbs. Ethanol, known toxicity and risk. WRT to resveratrol, no liver toxicity issues reported in humans to date despite six years of availability in high doses. Liver panels normal despite high dosages.in multiple subjects. It does have desirable effects via a vis diseases of aging, if not for prolonging life span.

Stacks of 10 to twenty xenobiotics is absurdly stupid. More than one or two at a time is uncontrollably unpredictable. Even one or two is often an unwise choice.

"First, do no harm." It's a wonder there are not more

[pycnogenol]

ajnast4r,

I hope your girlfriend makes a full recovery. Wishing her the best.

I've already described my less-than-stellar experiences with taking more than 3 herbs at one time a few
years ago and learned a lot, especially when it comes to my liver function. I came away from a bad outcome
after seeing a liver specialist that I ultimately caused and ended up much wiser as a result.

Folks, the take away message from me is if you take a variety of supplements (vitamins/herbs/etc.) you really
should have regular blood and urine work done, preferably every 6 months (twice per year) so you know how
your body is responding to the stuff you're ingesting.

It is as simple as that. Pay the money for the lab work.

Edited by pycnogenol, 23 September 2011 - 03:14 PM.

[adamh]

I'm very sorry to hear about this and wish her a speedy recovery too. However, to extend this to say all supplements are no good is tossing out the proverbial baby with the bath water. For every story like that you can find 5 about toxic results with prescription drugs including death. I think the take away message is do not megadose on anything and carefully research things before you take any of them. I do not trust enthusiastic websites which just happen to be selling the stuff. Usually it is backed up by no more than anonymous testimonials.

I finally found something that helps with nerve pain and no doctor recommended it. I just stumbled on it by chance.

I would say be careful before taking what your doctor prescribes because they make mistakes too.

[nameless]

My condolences, and I hope your friend's girlfriend gets better. If you happen to find out what she was taking, I'd also be interested.

And I agree with both your warning, and pycnogenol's suggestion to get regular blood work. I am surprised how many here never get basic blood work done, or have no idea what their serum D is, yet take 5-10K D3 daily.

But the take away message to me is more than simply get bloodwork done. It's that you should treat all supplements as the same way one would look at a medication. Before someone posts about the 'evils' of the FDA, yes, one can be harmed by drugs, as well. It's all about risk/reward. Yet I have seen tons of people here chug down dozens of supplements, even though they are otherwise perfectly healthy. We have an entire forum section on resveratrol, with people megadosing the stuff, yet there is no evidence it increases lifespan... and I won't even go into detail regarding the nootropic section, as that is pretty much a disaster.

I've always considered myself somewhat conservative regarding supplements, but as time has gone by, I find myself even more conservative than before. I don't assume any supplement is perfectly safe. Again, view them as medications -- if you have a health issue, then there are supplements which may help (and it doesn't hurt to mention it to your doctor too). If perfectly healthy, there is no need to go crazy with dozens of supplements or herbs nobody has heard of before.

[Thorsten3]

Wow, harsh news... I hope she makes a recovery soon.

It's not in the interests of any company to sell garbage to their customers... Maybe this was a tragic individual reaction? I assume no other casualties are known? She may have been taking a cocktail of herbs/supplements and it may have been the combination itself, but still, with that in mind, the advice of the OP is something to take note of for sure.

More reason not to stack supplements on top of each other. People don't even have a clue how these things are reacting together in the body. Even your doctor would have no idea at all. He may have a bit of medical school behind him and some studies to guide his sorry ass, but if he doesn't know how these things effect us (truly) what hope do we have? All you have is anecdotals. But then, what works for him might not work for you. So who's to say you won't get liver failure or a disease with your bladder or anything else?

Edited by Thorsten2, 23 September 2011 - 07:33 PM.

[ajnast4r]

just to clarify, this was my friends girlfriend, not mine... but thanks for the well wished. still dont know what the supplement was.

[pycnogenol]

I finally found something that helps with nerve pain and no doctor recommended it.
I just stumbled on it by chance.

Glad to hear it. And what would that something be exactly?

Edited by pycnogenol, 23 September 2011 - 10:29 PM.

[MrHappy]

I finally found something that helps with nerve pain and no doctor recommended it.
I just stumbled on it by chance.

Glad to hear it. And what would that something be exactly?

Ditto, my question too!

Was it st johns wort / hypericum, or benfotiamine, or?

[1kgcoffee]

I'm very sorry to hear that. What was she taking and how much? Was she taking any other drugs like acetaminophen? Many popular supplements inhibit p450 oxidase, which prevents acetaminophen from being broken down. In which case it was the tylenol and not the herbal supplement would be more to blame... thats my guess. What was the condition of her liver prior to the supplementation? Did she have a fatty liver? Was it already in poor function? Could the supplement have just pushed her over the edge? Her liver might have failed eventually even without the supplement. Maybe the doctors are just going with the most obvious culprit. Before pointing the finger, we need some answers. Anyway, this type of thing is very rare, and most here do their due diligence. Unless you count the contents of a multi, few here take 20 or 30 supplements. Supplementation has been hugely positive for me - I do tonnes of research to make sure of that.

[pycnogenol]

Many popular supplements inhibit p450 oxidase, which prevents acetaminophen from
being broken down. In which case it was the tylenol and not the herbal supplement would
be more to blame.

You've got that right. I was on medication some years back that contained acetaminophen along with
more herbs than I should of been taking. The result? Very high enzymes and liver pain. Discontinued the
herbs (except for milk thistle) and no longer take any medications that contain acetaminophen. Since
that time, my liver enzymes have been in the normal range.

Edited by pycnogenol, 24 September 2011 - 02:54 PM.

[frederickson]

this is an unfortunate situation and i wish the best for this person. if the toxicity is indeed due to the dietary supplement, i hope the company is held accountable.

i trust, ajnast4r, that you advise even more caution with reference to pharmaceutical products? remember, there were no deaths attributed to dietary supplements in 2010. there are over 100,000 deaths per year for properly prescribed and consumed pharmaceuticals.

[tintinet]

I haven't taken any acetaminophen for years. As I wrote above, in the hospital in which I work, a case of fulminant liver failure was attributed to low (well within normal limits) dose acetaminophen in a patient with no known contributing conditions or other medications.

"Owing to its status the most widely used pharmaceutical analgesic and antipyretic agent in the United States and the world (contained in more than 100 products), acetaminophen is one of the most common pharmaceuticals associated with both intentional and unintentional poisoning and toxicity, as reported to the American Association of Poison Control Centers, and acetaminophen toxicity is the most common cause of hepatic failure requiring liver transplantation in Great Britain. In the United States, acetaminophen toxicity has not only replaced viral hepatitis as the most common cause of acute hepatic failure, but it is also the second most common cause of liver failure requiring transplantation." Medscape

[frederickson]

i would encourage everyone who uses supplement to have a good understanding of the scientific method, how things like greed, pride, bias & poor research methods influence results, be able to read and comprehend entire studies & not just abstracts, and most importantly: understand that supplement companies, bar none, almost always misconstrue results in the name of profit.

again, profit drives the pharmaceutical industry even more than the supplement industry due to the fact that they are publicly traded. the responsibility of the pharmaceutical management is, by law, to the shareholder, not the consumer. this is at the root of much of the problems with medicine today.

while i wholeheartedly agree that the supplement companies driven by profit alone are problematic, i hope you are consistent in being similarly as critical of the pharmaceutical industry.

[Anthony_Loera]

I hope things work out for the best.

in my experience I have had issues when combining alcohol with supplements.

for example taking 2 grams of res and then going out drinking will give you energy however it will make alcohol much much stronger.

the other time when I had any issue was when I tried four loko. I can drink quite a few red bull and vodka drinks without issues. however half a can of four loco... And I started to feel physically ill.

My takeaway, is to be aware of what your supplements can do, and avoid things like alcohol. Again, I am reminded of when I went to supplyside west and found many ingredients expousing anti-inflamatory properties. I can imagine if a person took one of them he would be ok, but if he was convinced to take all of them by no fault of his (marketing comes to mind)... he would likely do harm to himself.

A

Excuse my spelling, I am on my phone.

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 26 September 2011 - 05:15 AM.

[Ben]

She was very foolish. Don't just put things in your mouth and swallow them is the moral of this story.

[abelard lindsay]

First, I hope she gets better. You're aware that thousands of people die every year from Tylenol poisoning. In fact, it's the leading cause of acute liver failure in the western world (http://en.wikipedia....etamol_toxicity). That, and it's an FDA stamped and approved drug sold over the counter to anyone. That, and the standard antidote is a non-patented, commonly available supplement N-Acetyl-Cysteine. Besides, without the name of the supplement, the toxin or anything else, this could be anything. If there's a supplement that's provably toxic to the liver, or a supplement seller with contaminated product, the FDA should look into some regulatory action. Unfortunately the doctor has provided zero information or specifics so people, in their grief, are unfortunately having a witch hunt reaction.

[ajnast4r]

she had a successful transplant last night... just waiting to see if the liver takes.

it was most likely this "female" product... my guess is the kitchen sink combination caused some sort of severe p450 inhibition. maybe the black cohosh... horribly irresponsibly formulated product, just off the top of my head i can see a few bad interactions: ginseng-velvet bean-gingko-velarian, etc.


CAPSULE 1 INGREDIENTS Angelica sinensis Dong quai Ginseng Ginseng Serenoa repens Saw palmetto Mucuna pruiens Velvet bean CAPSULE 2 INGREDIENTS Tinospora cordifolia Indian tinospora (Makabuhay) Angelica sinensis Dong quai Serenoa repens Saw palmetto Mucuna pruriens Velvet bean Ginseng Ginseng CAPSULE 3 INGREDIENTS Coral se calcium Coral sea calcium Ginkgo bilboboa Ginkgo Ginseng Ginseng Cantharantus roseus Madagascar periwinkle Blumea balsamifera Ngai camphor tree (Sambong) Rauvolfia serpentina Rauwolfia CAPSULE 4 INGREDIENTS Actaea racemosa Black cohosh Vitex negundo Chinese chaste tree (Lagundi) Angelica sinensis Dong quai Valeriana officinalis Valerian root Satureja douglasll Yerba Buena

Edited by ajnast4r, 25 September 2011 - 02:55 PM.

[niner]

Thanks for the information, ajnast4r. This is just a horrible situation; I do hope that she gets better. If there's anything we can take from this, it might be to note the red flags:

LEGAL NOTICE: This Exclusive Professional Formula is Only Available Through Select Licensed Health Care Practitioners.

Whenever you see this, you should consider that perhaps "Select Licensed Health Care Practitioners" have been recruited to pimp a crappy no-name brand. Occasionally this marketing scheme is legitimate, often it's not so good. At best you'll get something decent but pay through the nose for it. At worst..., well, I guess this is the worst.

The Kitchen Sink formula.

Mis-spellings on the ingredient list (I counted three)

Back at the website, we see a "Shop by Health Concern" . A lot of sites do that, but theirs is chock-full of indications that are essentially health claims. Under the "Children's Health" category are the following screwball products:

A+ TestCalmer to Calm Exam Nerves in Children and Teens(50ml) Price: $49.95

Bad Dream Sprinkles to Comfort Night Terrors and Bad Dreams (20g) Price: $49.95
ADD Attention Span (Spray) Price: $18.00
Chikkie Spot Drops for Calmness & Easing Children with itchy spots (50ml) Price: $49.95

I hope this outfit gets shut down. They are exploiting people's fears and lack of knowledge, overcharging them, and putting them and their families in danger.

[nameless]

Happy she got the liver transplant and hopefully it all works out okay, or as okay as it can at this point.

After reading Niner's post, I was curious so checked out the manufacturer of that supplement - Marco Pharma

It just screams out 'Run Away!'... one big warning sign is right on their top banner... 'Specialists in Drainage Remedies'.

Edited by nameless, 25 September 2011 - 04:52 PM.

[Ben]

Oh come you pricks. Why downvote me for that?

[hav]

So sorry to hear about your friend. Hope the transplant takes and that she makes a full recovery.

Besides Tylenol, another thing to watch out for are statin-based cholesterol-lowering drugs which if not carefully dosed can kill your liver. That's why doctors usually monitor liver health when they prescribe statins to make sure the dosage is non damaging. Problem is that Grapefruit can dramatically increase the bio-availability of statins and trigger a massive overdose in someone taking an otherwise safe dosage. For instance, grapefruit can increase the availability of the inexpensive simvastatin generic by 1200 % and take 36 hours to clear the system.

Howard

[pamojja]

Replying to supplement users, let this serve as a warning

.. without the name of the supplement, the toxin or anything else, this could be anything.. Unfortunately the doctor has provided zero information or specifics so people, in their grief, are unfortunately having a witch hunt reaction.

it was most likely this *female" product... my guess is

Was really interesting to follow that in this case I may be seen the only replier with no considerations for the victim. I'm still rather disgusted, because the point of this post was to make a sweeping warning of possible harm from supplements on account of a mere rumor - merely utilizing this unlucky girlfriend of a friend!?!

I can't really imagine any sincere motives to such premature one-sided disinformation, , and I doubt it's indeed in the interest of the concerned person.

It would have much furthered this cause, if there would have been certainty about the real causes of this liver failure in advance, not merely guesses many days later still.

Edited by pamojja, 25 September 2011 - 10:49 PM.

[ajnast4r]

the point of this post was to make a sweeping warning of possible harm from supplements on account of a mere rumor

the post was inspired by my buddys gf

but what the warnings i gave are rooted in my many years of experience and are completely valid.

[pamojja]

Fair enough. So how many liver failures caused by which supplements out of your experience you're able to recall?

[adamh]

I finally found something that helps with nerve pain and no doctor recommended it.
I just stumbled on it by chance.

Glad to hear it. And what would that something be exactly?

Ditto, my question too!

Was it st johns wort / hypericum, or benfotiamine, or?

Sorry to take so long getting back. That left sidebar gives me a pain but I check in every so often anyway.No, it's none of the one you mentioned, I tried them all. I also tried a lot of other things recommended like fish oil, thats good for health but did nothing for nerve discomfort. Lets see, q10, b vites, ldn, and all the usual supps or most of the usual ones. I tried neprinol which is an expensive enzyme which is supposed to do away with blood clots which might cause the problem. Nothing and I spent probably a couple hundred on that alone. I'll give it to everyone free of charge because that's what we are all here for. We don't keep good stuff to ourselves, we share and all gain from it.

I didn't want to go ot with a long thing if no one was interested but if even 2 people are, then I hope the rest will excuse me for this ot post. It's quite simple actually, an ordinary amino acid. It's not even expensive. It's called l glutamine and I got mine from smart powders. Mods, if this is considered spamming just redact the name of the vendor and leave the rest, please.OK, I paid $17 something on sale and shipping was $8. So far so good. What you do is take 10 gm tid or 3x per day. A level tsp is about 3gm so a just slightly heaping tbs is about 10 gm. Cost is only 90 cents a day tops. I found benefit the first day and even more the second day. You can taper off slightly after you get to max benefit, perhaps 25, play with it a little. But when I went below 20 the discomfort started coming back.

No promises or guarantees. The stuff that worked for diabetics did not work for me. I have no idea if it works for ms or not. Might be worth a shot. Same for diabetic neuropathy. Mine is idiopathic which is doctor talk for "we don't have a clue" It does not remove all the discomfort, I'd estimate up to 80% but that is including sitting the right way, not resting my arms on lumpy stuff etc. I recently bought 2 more kilos and the shipping averaged way down.
I've searched google for years, various search terms but it never came up. I lurked on neuropathy forums but no one mentioned it. Want to know how I found it? I googled "galantamine neuropathy" and they said do you mean glutamine neuropathy? I was about to be annoyed and surf away but I glanced down and saw all the positive reviews. So never give up. If top doctors say there is nothing that can be done, you just have to keep searching.Reason for edit, trying to get it to format

Edited by adamh, 25 September 2011 - 11:37 PM.