29 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

When will people realize the human heart should not be placed under such excessive stress?

The article claims the red herring that 'humidity' may have had something to do with it. What's wrong with these people? Humidity? really?


http://msn.foxsports...92511?gt1=39002

[Athanasios]

A lot of it is the problem of people pushing themselves to do something that they haven't trained for properly. In one of the classes I took in college, the professor went through what happens to the cardiovascular system when a person is working out. It was scary enough that I bet a few people skipped their workout due to intern's disease. There is a lot to be said for gradually improving your conditioning for an event like that. In a full marathon, vs. this half marathon, there are more issues that even well-trained athletes should be aware.

[niner]

TheFountain, on 26 September 2011 - 02:10 PM, said:

The article claims the red herring that 'humidity' may have had something to do with it. What's wrong with these people? Humidity? really?

Yeah.  Really.  Humans are cooled by evaporation of sweat.  In a humid environment, there is much less evaporation, so heat loss is a lot less efficient.  I don't think there's anything wrong with those people.  I don't think distance running is the best thing you can do for your health...

[drus]

It is definitely possible to overdo it when it comes to any kind of exercise, regardless of how fit one is.

[TheFountain]

drus, on 18 October 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:

It is definitely possible to overdo it when it comes to any kind of exercise, regardless of how fit one is.

This is why I think the best approach to cardio is to do 10-15 minutes, 3-4 times a week of intense cardio tops. Most of these health related incidences or deaths are in people who jog for miles every day or who are on a soccer field for 5-8 hours a day. It's ridiculous what people subject themselves to for sport. Really pathetic actually. I don't hear about many deaths related to short cardio work outs or resistance/circuit training. What do they have in common? short bursts of intensity, not hours long aerobic or running exercises which cause increased cardiac stress. More than we are evolved to take really.

Edited by TheFountain, 18 October 2011 - 02:42 PM.

[drus]

Agreed. You're basically correct, TheFountain. However, i go just slightly different/more, i say 20-30 mins of sustained moderate/intense cardio activity per day, 4-5 days a week; combined with 2-3 days per week of varied resistance/strength training, and a healthy diet, is optimal and all that is necessary for a normal/average person to achieve and maintain perfect health. If you're a professional athlete however, it's a different story.

[Mind]

Professional athletes are probably one of the few groups that should be taking this risk. They get paid millions of dollars to stress their body in this manner. It seems a few select groups of humans have the genetic disposition to run marathons. The rest really have to train, and then they are probably still rolling the dice a bit.

I think it is generally correct that for optimal health, short cardio and some resistance/weight training mixed in is probably optimal. I like to push myself a bit once in a while but now that I am getting older, I push a little less. I don't like it, but it is the reality of aging.....grrrrr....hopefully for not much longer.

[TheFountain]

Mind, I thought you were in your late 30s/early 40s? Sylvester stallone is nearing 70 and with no sign of slowing down in the work out intensity!

[niner]

TheFountain, on 19 October 2011 - 12:36 AM, said:

Mind, I thought you were in your late 30s/early 40s? Sylvester stallone is nearing 70 and with no sign of slowing down in the work out intensity!

Well, for a minute and four seconds, anyway.  I don't think we really know what he does in his full workouts.  He looks pretty good for an old fart.  Is he really nearing 70 in this video?  I should look like that.  He was busted in Australia in '07 for bringing HGH into the country.  I can't find any evidence that he's using anabolic steroids, but that's not something people advertise.   Probably a lot of plastic surgery and hair coloring; the usual Hollywood stuff.  If he got that body with no added steroids of any kind, then I'd say he's pretty unusual.  I suppose it could happen, but it would be a hell of a lot easier with a little juice.  Does he spend half his life in the gym?  I wonder how he'll look at 90, should he make it that far.  Wonder what he does in terms of diet and supplements?

[corb]

It seems people have forgotten the legend of the first marathon runner . He died after delivering the message.
And throughout the ages messengers have killed thousands of horses through overstrain.

Personally I do 90 minutes of cross country mountain biking which is quite cardio intensive, I do it every other day during the summer and with varied frequency in spring and autumn.
I think 90 minutes of cardio is around the maximum anyone who isn't a professional should do, I've tried going over 2 hours and it was messing with my lifestyle, I had to eat extra meals - notice the plural, take naps on top of my already long sleep cycle, it can't really be done realistically if you're doing something else besides sports.

[TheFountain]

Niner, he was training for the expendables in that video, so yea, mid-60s for sure. The point though is that when he was in his late 30s/early 40s he looked like this.



IMO late 30s/early 40s seems kind of young to slow down. But I guess everyone is different and seeing as how I am quite a ways from being there myself I can't make an in depth comment.

[maxwatt]

His legs look kind of under-developed

[Logan]

I think my mother hooked up with Sylvester a few times(that's not what she said, but I am guessing that she may have judging by the fact that she said she sort of dated him).  He did not like that name back then, but maybe he doesn't mind it so much now.  It was good for Hollywood though.  I can't remember what he liked being called, I think it was Mike.  That doesn't make sense though considering is brother's name is Mike, isn't it?

Anyway, look at the dude's first Rocky film, he just is not that cut.  He obviously is doing something to support his physique.  I bet it's HGH and testosterone replacement.  I would hope he'd be smart enough to stay away from steroids.  Maybe he knows how to do it right in order to minimize risk, who knows.

Marathons are pushing the limits of our abilities beyond what we ever should.  I can't believe there are people in their 70s running ironman triathlons, which involve a 3 mile swim, a marathon, and something like a 150 mile bike.  In my late 20s I could just go out and run 7 miles no problem without much training-I have more a triathlete/biker build than distance runner.  I would be practically sprinting at times, and finishing the run in a moderate sprint.  It felt amazing.  I often wondered if Zolft assisted me in my physical performance back then.  I really think it did.  So yeah, some people are just built for it, but even those that are have their limit.  Marathons are simply bad for everyone, no matter what your body is built for.

[maxwatt]

most deaths in running events are due to dehydration, a few from undiagnosed heart conditions.

[niner]

Don't marathoners have a habit of dropping dead due to heart attacks in the course of their everyday lives, other than on the track?

[TheFountain]

Not to mention soccer players. Lots of apparent cardiac conditions in that sport.

[maxwatt]

cardiac conditions in soccer possibly due to use of steroids, hgh et al.

Maratoners dying of heart attacks in everyday life?  Only the case of Jim Fixx comes to mind, of a congenital condition which may have been delayed because of his running.  I would hazard a guess the rate of cardiac arrest in distance runners is lower than in the eneral population.

[niner]

It looks like most of it is related to ordinary atherosclerosis:

Quote

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2011 Jul;43(7):1142-7.
Carotid and peripheral atherosclerosis in male marathon runners.
Kröger K, Lehmann N, Rappaport L, Perrey M, Sorokin A, Budde T, Heusch G, Jöckel KH, Thompson PD, Erbel R, Möhlenkamp S.

Clinic of Angiology, HELIOS Clinic Krefeld, Krefeld, Germany. knut.kroeger@helios-kliniken.de

PURPOSE:

We measured extracoronary atherosclerotic plaque burden and its association with cardiovascular risk factors and with coronary atherosclerosis in male marathon runners.
METHODS:

We studied 100 male presumably healthy runners, aged 50-75 yr, who completed at least five marathons during the preceding 3 yr. Presence of plaque in the carotid, abdominal, and lower limb arteries was imaged using B-mode ultrasound. In all runners, traditional cardiovascular risk factors and the electron beam computed tomography-based coronary artery calcium (CAC) score were determined.
RESULTS:

Ten runners were free from any plaque in the carotid or peripheral arteries. Runners with plaque were older (58±6 vs 54±5 yr, P=0.04), had a higher 10-yr Framingham risk score (7.2±3.8 vs 5.0±1.9, P=0.026), and tended to have a higher prevalence of CAC (76.7% vs 50.0%, P=0.07) compared with those without. Runners with CAC≥100 had larger peripheral artery diameters (aorta and iliac and common femoral arteries) but smaller lumen than runners with CAC<100, indicating atherosclerotic remodeling. A stepwise model selection process to predict CAC on the basis of age and peripheral atherosclerosis yielded a model as follows: log2(CAC+1)=0.181 age (yr)+0.435 maximum carotid plaque thickness (mm)-6.487, with a coefficient of determination of 22.8%. However, positive and negative predictive values were too low to predict CAC≥100 with sufficient accuracy.
CONCLUSIONS:

The prevalence of carotid and peripheral atherosclerosis in marathon runners is high and is related to cardiovascular risk factors and the coronary atherosclerotic burden. Remodeling of peripheral arteries is greatest in runners with the most evidence of atherosclerosis. These data support an increased awareness of atherosclerosis prevalence and cardiovascular risk factors in marathon runners.

PMID: 21200345

But then there's a case like this:

Quote

BMJ Case Rep. 2009;2009. pii: bcr08.2008.0758. Epub 2009 Feb 2.
Post-mortem evidence of idiopathic left ventricular hypertrophy and idiopathic interstitial myocardial fibrosis: is exercise the cause?

Whyte G, Sheppard M, George K, Shave R, Prasad S, O'Hanlon R, Sharma S.

Liverpool John Moores University, Research Institute for Sport and Exercise Science, Henry Cotton Campus, Truman Street, Liverpool, L3 2ET, UK.

We report the case of an experienced, highly trained marathon runner who died suddenly while running. On post-mortem examination, left ventricle hypertrophy and idiopathic interstitial myocardial fibrosis was found. We believe that life-long, repetitive bouts of arduous physical activity resulted in fibrous replacement of the myocardium, causing a pathological substrate for the propagation of fatal arrhythmias.

PMID: 21686644
PMCID: PMC3030112  Free PMC Article

[TheFountain]

If in these younger individuals atherosclerosis is indeed the culprit one can only speculate that the physical conditioning required by marathon running and soccer accelerate whatever factors are involved in the development of the disease.

'We believe that life-long, repetitive bouts of arduous physical activity resulted in fibrous replacement of the myocardium, causing a pathological substrate for the propagation of fatal arrhythmias'

By claiming it is 'arduous physical activity' it seems almost like denialism of the fact that very specific activities, I.E long distance running and long hours on a soccer field, are significant contributors of the forementioned developments. In my opinion that kind of statement can scare people out of exercise.

[Mind]

I am 40. Most people tell me I am in great shape. The main problem I have noticed in the last couple of years is minor joint trouble. Hips, knees, and lower back (which stems from some poor lifting in younger years). I can still run, bike, play basketball, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

The difference is that I can't max out like I used to. Can't lift as much weight without sustaining light injury. Can't run as fast. Things like that.

This is just a fact of life for someone my age. VOmax is going down. I am amazed at how much different things are now that most of my testosterone is gone (declines rapidly in mid to late 30s). I don't recover as fast. I can't build muscle as fast.

But like I said, I am still in much better shape than most of my peers. I am happy with that. Anti-aging science continues to progress. I am happy with that. We have to keep working hard to make sure progress continues.

Edited by Mind, 21 October 2011 - 06:40 PM.

[platypus]

Mind, on 21 October 2011 - 06:40 PM, said:

This is just a fact of life for someone my age. VOmax is going down. I am amazed at how much different things are now that most of my testosterone is gone (declines rapidly in mid to late 30s). I don't recover as fast. I can't build muscle as fast.

Have you considered supplements that increase testosterone? Maybe not yet but in 5-10 years?

[TheFountain]

Mind, on 21 October 2011 - 06:40 PM, said:

I am 40. Most people tell me I am in great shape. The main problem I have noticed in the last couple of years is minor joint trouble. Hips, knees, and lower back (which stems from some poor lifting in younger years). I can still run, bike, play basketball, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

The difference is that I can't max out like I used to. Can't lift as much weight without sustaining light injury. Can't run as fast. Things like that.

This is just a fact of life for someone my age. VOmax is going down. I am amazed at how much different things are now that most of my testosterone is gone (declines rapidly in mid to late 30s). I don't recover as fast. I can't build muscle as fast.

But like I said, I am still in much better shape than most of my peers. I am happy with that. Anti-aging science continues to progress. I am happy with that. We have to keep working hard to make sure progress continues.

I thought a high fat paleo-ish diet pretty much balanced out any testosterone issues in aging men.

I don't know when Sylvester stallone started using the juice but some people speculate he was well in his 40s already. His physique looks pretty natural in rocky 3-5, and his age ranged from 35 to I believe 44 between these films.

[platypus]

The joint trouble might be due to diminished HGH levels instead of testosterone. There are anecdotal reports that low doses of HGH combined with high-dose glucosamine&chondroitin can repair cartilage and even grow the meniscus.

[TheFountain]

Could it be that a low carb diet is partly responsible for the joint problems?

'Carbs help our joints by helping in the attraction of water and maintenance of the 'spongy' nature of cartilage and the joint as a unit as well.'

http://www.nutriology.com/carbs.html

[Logan]

Ha ha, Fountain, you and the carb thing, it's funny dude.  One can get plenty of good carbs from vegetables, fruits, and nuts.  My joints have felt so much better after eliminating wheat and other grains.  Actually, I do eat a little rice, it's part of the tempeh I enjoy 3 or 4 times a week.  But rice does not have the same inflammatory insult that grains like wheat do.

[TheFountain]

I think you mean the inflammatory reactions *some* people experience in relation to wheat and gluten consumption. But then i'm not advocating the high consumption of these carbs.

I sometimes think people think I am making up my reactions to high fat, low carb dieting. My arguments rest firmly on the prospective phenotype discussion, and of course this proceeds from first hand experience. Plenty of asians do well on high carb diets as well. This is borne out in population studies. But I don't want to get this thread too side tracked. I already have other threads dedicated to this subject.

[Mind]

I have thought about HGH and Testosterone. I know a few people who have had some "anecdotal" success. Still, feeling a little age is not too bothersome right now. I still do most of the things I like to do. I don't like it, but it has not reached the point where I am going to do anything too drastic.

[Logan]

TheFountain, on 22 October 2011 - 10:31 PM, said:

I think you mean the inflammatory reactions *some* people experience in relation to wheat and gluten consumption. But then i'm not advocating the high consumption of these carbs.

I sometimes think people think I am making up my reactions to high fat, low carb dieting. My arguments rest firmly on the prospective phenotype discussion, and of course this proceeds from first hand experience. Plenty of asians do well on high carb diets as well. This is borne out in population studies. But I don't want to get this thread too side tracked. I already have other threads dedicated to this subject.

It appears that you think some of us are often in a state of ketosis and hardly eating any carbs.  I guess that's why I react the way I do to some of your comments.

I'm not sure that using Asians is a good example.  They may be better equipped to deal with high carb diets than other people from other cultures.  Also, they only eat rice, which really is not that bad, even if you over do it a bit.

And gluten can be inflammatory for anyone, even those without a real sensitivity to it.  Also, the wheat products in this country may have far more gluten in them than other parts of the world, which might be one of the reason for all of the sensitivities/allergies developing here-too much exposure to a bad thing.

[TheFountain]

MorganM, on 24 October 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:

TheFountain, on 22 October 2011 - 10:31 PM, said:

I think you mean the inflammatory reactions *some* people experience in relation to wheat and gluten consumption. But then i'm not advocating the high consumption of these carbs.

I sometimes think people think I am making up my reactions to high fat, low carb dieting. My arguments rest firmly on the prospective phenotype discussion, and of course this proceeds from first hand experience. Plenty of asians do well on high carb diets as well. This is borne out in population studies. But I don't want to get this thread too side tracked. I already have other threads dedicated to this subject.

It appears that you think some of us are often in a state of ketosis and hardly eating any carbs.  I guess that's why I react the way I do to some of your comments.

I'm not sure that using Asians is a good example.  They may be better equipped to deal with high carb diets than other people from other cultures.  Also, they only eat rice, which really is not that bad, even if you over do it a bit.

And gluten can be inflammatory for anyone, even those without a real sensitivity to it.  Also, the wheat products in this country may have far more gluten in them than other parts of the world, which might be one of the reason for all of the sensitivities/allergies developing here-too much exposure to a bad thing.

The argument is that receptor abnormalities is what gives rise to a persons body not being able to tolerate carbohydrates/insulin. Otherwise as stephen guyenet put it, insulin should actually help regulate body fat levels in healthy individuals.

In terms of culture, a lot of americans are a mixed breed of various european cultures, and with the past few generations, even a lot of asiatic/white mixes or latino and black as well. I don't know how mixing races affects the different phenotypes but ostensibly couldn't they cause, amongst other things, leptin sensitivity and problems metabolizing carbs and/or dietary fat (depending on the gene mutation)? I have a lot of irish in me, maybe there is some kind of potato famine gene active in me that allows for the metabolism of higher amount of carbohydrate?

All this certainty with regard to results just seems foolish. I do not experience what you do when I eat wheat or grain carbs, and to add to the problem I do not garner the results a high fat, low carb diet is suppose to bestow on a person. I have tried it for months. Same supplement and exercise regimen I am on now (roughly the same calorie intake). I see a lot less mid section fat on a higher carb, lower fat diet than the reverse. I'm not making it up. And i'm not the only one.

Edited by TheFountain, 24 October 2011 - 06:26 PM.

[Mind]

Right now I probably get 50 to 100 grams of carbs a day. Not very low. Most of those carbs are from super foods like spinach, almonds, broccoli, cranberries, and blueberries. I don't think there is a problem with my carb intake.