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Selegiline + Idebenone

selegiline idebenone melatonin

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#1 computeTHIS

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 12:29 AM


Upon ingestion, a black hole opened up on my wall and Barack Obama popped out to ask me if I would come smoke a bowl with him. Just kidding, but now you know how "youthfully exuberant" I'm feeling with the addition of Idebenone.

The first day was incredible, so much energy and creativity. For some reason I decided to start playing sports left handed to see if I could become somewhat ambidextrous on Idebenone, and I actually had fun, whereas previous attempts were more frustrating without Idebenone. Things that I was more interested in as a child came rushing back to me, and I was up till 7am thinking about things I wanted to do. Not even 5mg of Melatonin helped. I woke up 5 hours later well refreshed.

Today is day 2 of taking 180mg (Primaforce) Idebenone with my Selegiline. I would probably prefer to take half a capsule but I really don't feel like popping it open every time and trying to "cut" the powder. Day 2 is pretty much the same as day 1. I think I'm realizing though that it's making my ADHD more difficult to control as I'm struggling to take the time to get important things done, if nothing else Idebenone is wonderful for anhedonia.

For those concerned about the oxidative effects of Idebenone, I might recommend taking Melatonin at the end of the day for its antioxidant properties and mitochondrial protection. Melatonin is not helping me sleep, however, but rather giving me a "blunted" feeling.

From http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/11462772:

Free radical-mediated molecular damage. Mechanisms for the protective actions of melatonin in the central nervous system.

Reiter RJ, Acuña-Castroviejo D, Tan DX, Burkhardt S.

Source

Department of Cellular and Structural Biology, Mail Code 7762, The University of Texas Health Science Center At San Antonio, 7703 Floyd Curl Drive, San Antonio, TX 78229-3900, USA. Reiter@uthscsa.edu

Abstract

This review briefly summarizes the multiple actions by which melatonin reduces the damaging effects of free radicals and reactive oxygen and nitrogen species. It is well documented that melatonin protects macromolecules from oxidative damage in all subcellular compartments. This is consistent with the protection by melatonin of lipids and proteins, as well as both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA. Melatonin achieves this widespread protection by means of its ubiquitous actions as a direct free radical scavenger and an indirect antioxidant. Thus, melatonin directly scavenges a variety of free radicals and reactive species including the hydroxyl radical, hydrogen peroxide, singlet oxygen, nitric oxide, peroxynitrite anion, and peroxynitrous acid. Furthermore, melatonin stimulates a number of antioxidative enzymes including superoxide dismutase, glutathione peroxidase, glutathione reductase, and catalase. Additionally, melatonin experimentally enhances intracellular glutathione (another important antioxidant) levels by stimulating the rate-limiting enzyme in its synthesis, gamma-glutamylcysteine synthase. Melatonin also inhibits the proxidative enzymes nitric oxide synthase and lipoxygenase. Finally, there is evidence that melatonin stabilizes cellular membranes, thereby probably helping them resist oxidative damage. Most recently, melatonin has been shown to increase the efficiency of the electron transport chain and, as a consequence, to reduce election leakage and the generation of free radicals. These multiple actions make melatonin a potentially useful agent in the treatment of neurological disorders that have oxidative damage as part of their etiological basis. PMID: 11462772 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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#2 semi-retarded-individual

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 01:16 AM

So what was your experience with deprenyl prior to introducing the Idebenone? How does it compare to the addition of Idebenone? It sounds like it's just giving you more energy and a positive mood?

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#3 computeTHIS

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 03:00 AM

Prior to Idebenone, Selegiline is anxiolitic, helps with motivation, lethargy, concentration (to a lesser extent), and an all around feeling of well-being. These attributes of it have done wonders for my ADHD. While life indeed feels enriched, I've still had feelings of anhedonia - things that I seem to have pushed aside to make room for other responsibilities and it's generally more difficult coming back to those "fun" activities. Idebenone changed that aspect completely, in only one day. If it is indeed stimulating nerve growth factor (NGF), I may even turn the tables on the effects of adult neural plasticity.

#4 lourdaud

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 06:34 AM

Hm, shame it's so expensive. Where's the cheapest place to get it?

I'm currently taking 200 mg of CoQ-10 daily and I'm still young, would I nonetheless benefit a lot more from Idebenone, or what do you think?
I also take NAC and ALA and drink a lot of green tea. Can't say that I notice much of a difference from taking all this stuff, but feels good telling myself I'm somewhat mitigating all the damage done by dexamphetamine.. hah.

#5 computeTHIS

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 09:02 PM

I think around $32 was the cheapest for Primaforce (80 tablets, 180mg).

It's difficult to say that you would benefit. Textbook neuroscience data shows a beginning decline in brain mass somewhere around age 22-24 (can someone find this info?). I don't think I would take it if I were any younger than that.

I think I'm going to cycle this supplement, I feel like I've gained that which I was trying to recover. It has also reinforced the notion that I have some dopamine deficiency, in that I'm now more focused on activities that are more stimulating, which is a bit problematic.

#6 semi-retarded-individual

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 09:07 PM

How much deprenyl are you taking with it? Are you taking it daily or every other day? Are you taking the liquid or tablet form and how are you taking it (eg: sublingually?)

Lots of questions... thanks for answering. :)

#7 computeTHIS

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Posted 08 October 2011 - 02:46 AM

I take the tablet form of Selegiline, once a day, 5mg, straight down the throat. Taking it with or without food seems to have no effect, nor does taking it with olive oil (ew). Oral forms seem to have the least bio-availability according to selegiline.com, the alternative being the use of something like an EMSAM patch. As I understand it, 10mg via EMSAM runs a much higher risk of serotonin syndrome as it loses its selectivity between MAO-A/B more easily. An advantage of EMSAM is that it bypasses the gut, so even at MAO-A levels it doesn't need a tyramine dietary restriction. But don't quote me on that, definitely read the pages on EMSAM. It's the most expensive option for Selegiline, that's why I don't use the EMSAM patch.

#8 computeTHIS

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:23 AM

I just wanted to add that I built up a tolerance to Idebenone after roughly 4 days of use. However, I did not try going above 180mg. Also, the benefits do not seem to be temporary. I feel as though it reversed much of the damage caused by 2 years of Adderall treatment. Most notably, my emotional sensitivity has been restored - the ability to laugh, and feel greater empathy toward others.

#9 semi-retarded-individual

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 02:15 AM

Thanks for the update. I decided to discontinue Selegiline due to feeling a flattening effect on my personality. I felt more stoic and vapid while on it although it might have helped with improving focus a bit. Overall, it didn't contribute a significant benefit to my wellness and in view of its cost I decided it wasn't worth it.

#10 sam7777

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 02:35 AM

I am surprised I do not hear more about this idebenone. The effects described are exactly what I need. My emotional/affective function is severely blunted, in an almost autistic like manner, I cannot even form relationships with people or work a cash register. Physics is certainly not easy with such a severe effect on neurology either.

#11 nupi

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:56 AM

Can you comment on how it feels more than a month later? I am looking for something sustainable exactly along those lines...

#12 canz

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 04:59 AM

I'm also interested in an update.

#13 JChief

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:15 PM

I intend to trial this myself since information about it seems hard to come by. Been through several threads and it's been out for awhile but no one really cares to chime in about it as much as the racetams so... perhaps there is a reason eh? Perhaps they are out being more productive as opposed to laboring in front of a computer screen :happy:. Regardless, I shall take the plunge soon enough and put this baby to bed...

Edited by JChief, 20 November 2011 - 01:19 PM.


#14 X_Danny_X

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 04:34 PM

Idebenone is a powerful antioxidant, well it is basically the Coenzyme Q10 in fat soluble form. So it is just CoQ10 named Idebenone because it is fat soluble. I was thinking of taking Idebenone with ALCAR. Since fat soluble form of CoQ10 is being ingested. I think the body then can concentrate more on making ALCAR to Acetyl-CoA and then N-acetylserotonin to stimulate TrBK.

#15 computeTHIS

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:41 PM

Can you comment on how it feels more than a month later? I am looking for something sustainable exactly along those lines...


I took it earlier this morning, with about a month's cessation from it. It seems to have very nearly the same original effects on feelings of empathy and energy. If you think of it in terms of neural growth and repair via mitochondrial mechanisms, it makes sense that there would be some initial drastic changes followed by tolerance. But continued intake will likely be neuro-protective, ensuring neural growth and survival versus neural decline.

I've read that pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ) combined with CoQ10 has similar nootropic effects. I'll be trying that next, and it may be a more economical alternative to Idebenone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PQQ

Edited by computeTHIS, 20 November 2011 - 06:42 PM.


#16 X_Danny_X

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 07:18 PM

is PPQ only available through prescription or can you buy it at a store? seems PPQ enhances memory and cognitive function on people with learning disabilities.

but what about healthy adults? what data do you have?

Edited by X_Danny_X, 20 November 2011 - 07:20 PM.


#17 computeTHIS

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:23 PM

is PPQ only available through prescription or can you buy it at a store? seems PPQ enhances memory and cognitive function on people with learning disabilities.

but what about healthy adults? what data do you have?


I've found it widely available online, I think I ordered mine from swansonvitamins.com.

I'm referring to these effects described on the Wikipedia page, from which you can check its sources:

Neuroprotection

PQQ is a potent neuroprotective nutrient that has been shown to protect memory and cognition in both aging animals and humans.[35][36] It has been shown to reverse cognitive impairment caused by chronic oxidative stress in pre-clinical models and improve performance on memory tests.[37] PQQ supplementation stimulates the production and release of nerve growth factor in cells that support neurons in the brain,[38] a possible explanation for the marked improvement of memory function it produces in aging humans and rats.

PQQ has also been shown to safeguard against the self-oxidation of the DJ-1 gene, an early step in the onset of Parkinson’s disease.[39]

PQQ protects brain cells against oxidative damage following ischemia-reperfusion injury—the inflammation and oxidative damage that result from the sudden return of blood and nutrients to tissues deprived of them by stroke.[40] Reactive nitrogen species (RNS) arise spontaneously following stroke and spinal cord injuries and impose severe stresses on damaged neurons, producing a significant proportion of subsequent long-term neurological damage.[41] PQQ suppresses RNS in experimentally induced strokes,[42] and provides additional protection following spinal cord injury by blocking inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS), a major source of RNS. [43]

In animal models, administration of PQQ immediately prior to induction of stroke significantly reduces the size of the damaged brain area.[44] These observations have been extended in vivo by showing that PQQ protects against the likelihood of severe stroke in an experimental animal model for stroke and brain hypoxia. [45]

PQQ interacts beneficially with the brain’s neurotransmitter systems. It protects neurons by modifying the N-Methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor site[46][47] and mediating excitotoxicity—the damaging consequence of long-term overstimulation of neurons that is associated with many neurodegenerative diseases and seizures. [48][49][50][51]

PQQ also protects the brain against neurotoxicity induced by other powerful toxins, including mercury[52](a suspected factor in the development of Alzheimer’s disease[53]) and oxidopamine[54] (a potent neurotoxin used by scientists to induce Parkinsonism in laboratory animals by destroying dopaminergic and noradrenergic neurons[55]).

PQQ prevents development of alpha-synuclein, a protein associated with Parkinson’s disease.[56] PQQ also protects nerve cells from the oxidizing ravages of the amyloid-beta protein linked with Alzheimer’s disease,[57] and works preventatively to block new amyloid beta molecular structures from forming before they can cause any damage.[58]

Cognition

PQQ has been shown to promote memory, attention, and cognition in animals[59] and humans.

In a double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial conducted in Japan in 2007, supplementation with 20 mg per day of PQQ resulted in improvements on tests of higher cognitive function in a group of 71 middle-aged and elderly people aged between 40-70, who outperformed the placebo group by more than twofold in their standardized memory tests. [60]

Interestingly, the results of the study also suggest a synergistic relationship between PQQ and the nutrient coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), which further amplified performance on standardized memory tests when subjects also took 300 mg per day of CoQ10. No adverse effects were linked to the supplementation, and the results demonstrated that PQQ, especially when combined with CoQ10, can be used to improve mental status and quality of life in older patients, and help slow or prevent age-related cognitive decline in middle-age patients.



#18 X_Danny_X

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 03:05 PM

yeah i read that. the studies on improving cognitive and memory where on people who where 40 and above. it does say though that it is potent.

i will combine this with alcar.

#19 JChief

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 04:37 PM

I love this forum! PQQ and Idebenone sure has me thinking.. seeing as it's CoQ10's synthetic analog with reduced oxidant generating properties. Sure it's considered experimental but the clinical evidence is promising. Now I wonder about this combination.

#20 manic_racetam

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Posted 22 December 2011 - 06:11 AM

Impulse buy about a week ago of some idebenone from SP (got me with that sale). They are 500mg capsules, which seems like a ridiculously high dosage. But all the studies with prolonged gram+ daily doses with few if any side effects has me not too worried about it.

I've been taking it for 3 days now. I wasn't expecting any subjective effects at all, I simply wanted to benefit from it's antioxidant properties. But honestly I'd say this stuff has increased my energy levels tremendously. I ordered a few things that I started at the same time (choline citrate, aniracetam, etc) so it's difficult to discern which sup is causing which effect or if it's a mix between them all. Don't really care at this point, I'm able to exercise again (finally have the energy to do it!) and that alone is a huge step.

Anyway, I've been taking 500mg idebenone in the morning and I've been feeling great. My urine is a very rusty shade of brown but I read from google that it's supposedly harmless.

For reference, my stack for the last three days has been

Choline Citrate 1000mg
Inositol 1000mg
Noopept 30mg (transdermal application)
Aniracetam 750mg (no mania so far)
tianeptine (Stablon) 12.5mg x 3

BCAA's 25gs
Whey Protein 60gs

Vit C 2000mgs
Idebenone 500mgs
BHT 250mgs
Acyclovir 400mgs

#21 Ultravioletbllc

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 03:59 AM

Interesting piqued my curiosity's cat as it were lol , and I haven't seen it mentioned much anywhere but here and a few other esoteric reference points but Deprenyl is the ONLY totally effective anxiety agent for me and my homeostasis Fighter brain (other then benzos and phenibut wich in essence for me are Anti nootropic )

Ps for the first two weeks high dosage Alcar was a must for me with Deprenyl if not I'd be napping like the proverbial cat

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#22 Ultravioletbllc

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 04:03 AM

I must also note bio availability(oral) with no food is a pithy 4.4% I personally can't tolerate that as with food it's around 20-24% orally bio available , yes yes yes the trans mucosal / sublingual routes! I know I know but I'm in the camp that does believe the l amphetamine metabolites are beneficial So......... I take 3/4 of my dose oral and an hr-2 hrs later I take 1.25 mg sublingual , jjjjjuuussst say yin





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