8 replies to this topic

[curiouskid23]

I'm trying to research nootropics thoroughly. I don't just want to read a few posts in these forums and come away not certain of anything. I'm looking for a comprehensive book or guide to nootropics. If one doesn't exist already, then we should try to create one. I think it needs to address the following topics:

Research:
1. How to interpret statistics and meta-analyses. There's already a post on this in the forum, but we can go further. http://www.longecity...=236&t=10498&s=

2. How research into nootropics is funded and how it is performed. We need to realize that the FDA is a somewhat biased source of information. EX: they were trying to classify piracetam as a drug (purportedly) so that they could make more money by selling as a prescription drug. We need to be able to understand how money influences research. EX: most of the studies performed are on people who have deficits because more people are looking to go from sub-normal to normal rather than people like us who are looking to go from normal to enhanced.

3. Studies on people who are different from you don't necessarily apply to you. A drug that is effective for old people might not be effective for you. A drug that improves memory in mice, might not improve your memory. This is significant because very very few studies are performed on normal people because there isn't as much as a market for enhancement drugs (compared to deficit correction).

4. What is causing the cognitive benefits in these studies? Is processing speed being improved or are the drugs improving mood which is improving processing speed?

Regimens:
1. These factors need to be taken into account:
a. Which source should you buy from (money. Quality. Shipping. Seals. Customer service. Discounts).
b. dosage (genetic sensitivity to certain drugs (see 23 and me). If you stack, should you take less?)
c. timing (all at once. Several times throughout the day. With meals?),
d. stacking, cycling, tolerance, short-term v. long term effects.
2. You also need to be keeping a journal to see if the drugs are working for you. I'm taking into account a ton of factors to see how effective these are for me.


Sleep:

Exercise
Comedy
Mental exertion
Meditation:
Stress:
Mood:
Social interactions:
Fluctuations throughout the day in the above:
Nootropics taken:

I'm considering studying nootropics in more depth once I get into college. Right now it doesn't seem beneficial for me to study the mechanisms of action and such in depth unless I am going to be getting from a good comprehensive source (hopefully I'll find one in college). Also, I'm not necessarily sure I want to study these in college because I'm only concerned with the pragmatic benefits of taking them. If learning about the mechanisms of action isn't beneficial (doesn't cause me to alter my regimen), then why should I study them in college?

[Invariant]

Here is a book on cognitive enhancing drugs: http://www.amazon.co...ref=pd_sim_b_45

I haven't read it, and so I don't know if its comprehensive. It's also quite expensive, but it does seem like a reliable academic source.

If your interest is only pragmatic, I think nothing will get you further than this forum and self-experimentation. There just aren't any clear cut answers in the literature. You might gain some insight into why some things don't work for you, but predicting with certainty which drugs will and won't work for you is simply not possible at the moment.

Good luck!

[longevitynow]

Here is a book on cognitive enhancing drugs: http://www.amazon.co...ref=pd_sim_b_45

I haven't read it, and so I don't know if its comprehensive. It's also quite expensive, but it does seem like a reliable academic source.

If your interest is only pragmatic, I think nothing will get you further than this forum and self-experimentation. There just aren't any clear cut answers in the literature. You might gain some insight into why some things don't work for you, but predicting with certainty which drugs will and won't work for you is simply not possible at the moment.

Good luck!

The index does not mention Piracetam, and only selegiline on page 187. It does not seem it is a good text for looking into most of the agents the people on this forum are interested in.

[Ampa-omega]

Here is a book on cognitive enhancing drugs: http://www.amazon.co...ref=pd_sim_b_45

I haven't read it, and so I don't know if its comprehensive. It's also quite expensive, but it does seem like a reliable academic source.

If your interest is only pragmatic, I think nothing will get you further than this forum and self-experimentation. There just aren't any clear cut answers in the literature. You might gain some insight into why some things don't work for you, but predicting with certainty which drugs will and won't work for you is simply not possible at the moment.

Good luck!

The index does not mention Piracetam, and only selegiline on page 187. It does not seem it is a good text for looking into most of the agents the people on this forum are interested in.

its actually a good book, its from the neuropharamaceutical perspective.
if you want a book on supplements you could look into smartdrugs II ,http://www.nootropic.com/, get both books if you can.

Edited by Ampa-omega, 16 October 2011 - 06:13 PM.

[curiouskid23]

What I find really terrible is that I asked a doctor about nootropics, and she hadn't even heard of them. I appreciate the book recommendations, but I don't think many books directly address the information I requested above. I think the knowledge of the mechanisms of action is important, but ultimately it's all about implementation and very little research has been done into the effects of stacking them. But if you think there is value to knowing the mechanisms of action please tell me. I just think that even the doctors don't know the mechanisms of action with certainty. But maybe you don't need certainty. Maybe you don't need to over analyze all the different aspects. Something like a headache could be solved by decreasing choline supplementation and you wouldn't need to know much more than that.

However, something like tolerance isn't so noticeable and acute like a headache. Do you think that tolerance would be easier to detect in an objective study or self-experimentation?

If self-experimentation is the only route, then what advice do you guys have? I'm very new to this. I think that it would be hard for me to be aware enough of my mood and energy fluctuations throughout the day, let alone trying to attribute a cause to them with so many other factors. It seems incredible to me that modern medicine accomplishes anything considering all the complexity. Then again, there is iatrogenics. This is a bit of rant, but my main point is:
1. I want the information in the OP
2. If self-experimentation is the only way to it, then how can we do it objectively due to the variety of other factors?
3. If you operate under uncertainty, then what compels you to build your regimen the way you do? Doesn't it seem a bit irrational to believe a supplement will work and continue to buy it and take it if you don't have evidence?

[abelard lindsay]

I would recommend Dr. Eric Braverman's "The Edge Effect". It doesn't mention 'racetams but it's a good introduction to brain chemistry and a good guide to supplements that affect it in different ways. I got a lot out of it.

[curiouskid23]

I'm keeping pretty rigorous track of my mental state to see what effects these nootropics have.

The following are things I keep track of in my nootropics journal:


Sleep:
Exercise
Comedy
Mental exertion
Meditation:
Stress:
Social:
Mood:
Fluctuations throughout the day:
Nootropic taken:

Also, I tend to keep these in mind.

Realize that sleep can have delayed effects. Also, realize that on weekends you aren’t getting any exercise.
The effects of certain foods and drugs can have their effects felt as much as a week later. You miss sleep tonight, but feel fine the next day, but the day after you feel like shit. You get too much sleep and you feel like shit the next day, but the day after you feel great.
Long Term: Memory? Intelligence? Mood? It's hard for me to really compare mental states over long periods of time due to the state-dependence of memory (if you're sad, it's hard to remember times when you were happy and visa versa).

[kassem23]

1. I want the information in the OP
2. If self-experimentation is the only way to it, then how can we do it objectively due to the variety of other factors?
3. If you operate under uncertainty, then what compels you to build your regimen the way you do? Doesn't it seem a bit irrational to believe a supplement will work and continue to buy it and take it if you don't have evidence?

You could try DNB, and other tasks, but when doing these things, don't expect you'll get a lot of objective data. It's mostly going to be subjective. That doesn't mean it's useless however, you can still benefit from trying them and observing patterns.

[absent minded]

1. I want the information in the OP
2. If self-experimentation is the only way to it, then how can we do it objectively due to the variety of other factors?
3. If you operate under uncertainty, then what compels you to build your regimen the way you do? Doesn't it seem a bit irrational to believe a supplement will work and continue to buy it and take it if you don't have evidence?

You could try DNB, and other tasks, but when doing these things, don't expect you'll get a lot of objective data. It's mostly going to be subjective. That doesn't mean it's useless however, you can still benefit from trying them and observing patterns.

I'm just another layman lurker, but I'll give my 1 cent.

you could try putting cambridge brain sciences into google, go to their website and create an account. You have to because your results get plotted every time you take the test. There are more memory test variations over at cognitive fun. E.g. the forward verbal digit span, reverse visual digit span, etc. etc.

Just try to stay away from the time-limited ones. It would be up to you how to create certain protocols to try and eliminate any "noise" in your observations. e.g. making sure you do not chunk in the memory tests like the digit span, or, trying to suppress your phonological loop (conscious rehearsal in your head) and doing it monotonously. As well as taking into account unexpected factors, e.g. a video gamer with a high precision mouse who plays a lot of video games will have an edge in an object-clicking task where time is factored.

In the dual n-back task, you would probably have to keep training for several weeks until you hit your baseline limit before you start messing around with the supplements. Brainworkshop (google) is the opensource freeware of this game. There is also a whole bunch of other game types to experiment with. e.g. tri-n-back (visual, audio, and colour), quad-n-back (tri-quad + an image)

Edited by Raizy, 07 December 2011 - 11:04 AM.