43 replies to this topic

[Baten]

Took 1 dose of 8mg galantamine a while ago. I've always had a very mild, but audible chronic tinnitus (light ringing in ears).
Within 12 hours of the galantamine dose, the audible strength of the tinnitus went 2 to 3 times as loud.

It's been like this for almost 2 weeks now. Very loud tinnitus, 24/7.

EDIT: was also taking noopept at the time. Really don't think this was the cause, though.

Quite ironic. Expierencing with nootropics to be sharper at school. My brain is sharper / feels "younger", more than ever before.
Yet I get stuck with this unnerving tinnitus.

Going to exercise more (6 times a week), get an even healthier diet, and maybe start acupuncture/magnetism treatment to see if that will alleviate symptoms a bit.

Anyone had a similar expierence, with galantamine, or any substance for that matter?

thanks

Edited by Baten, 17 October 2011 - 05:44 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Sounds like one of your acetylcholine receptors is a little sensitive or over-reactive. Though totally unrelated, I got ringing from Concerta... that was the only time (minus rock shows) I can recall. The best thing for it was sleep. How's your blood pressure?

Edited by devinthayer, 18 October 2011 - 03:30 PM.

[thedevinroy]

http://www.dreddycli...nko-Bilboba.htm

Ginkgo helps with Tinnitus. Probably helping with oxygen flow to the ears. Niacin might help with that, too.

My theory, if you want to hear me out, is that the galantamine and noopept caused an increase in acetylcholine activity, which may have activated certain areas of the brain, causing their metabolism to be up-regulated while others remained untouched. If this is the case, then Methylene Blue may help return oxygen function via hydrogen transportation (not a one to one ratio, but good enough).

EDIT: Also if it is a tinnitus caused from a current infection, the Methylene Blue in higher doses (60mg) will help kill it off.

Edited by devinthayer, 18 October 2011 - 04:55 PM.

[Baten]

I'm taking methylene blue as of a few days, making me sharper but not doing much noise-wise.
I've tried ginkgo and niacin before, also didn't seem to do much.

Acetylcholine activity could be a cause.. the only thing that keeps the noise down a bit is taking piracetam 2400mg every 4 hours.
I usually don't dose it more than once a day though, don't want to develop any tolerance... :/

Since galantamine is an acetylcholine inhibitor according to its wiki, what could I do to possible reverse the apparently remaining influence of the galantamine?

Appreciate the thinking here, devinthayer!

Edited by Baten, 18 October 2011 - 07:05 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Just trying to inspire.

You could increase your citric acid levels. Eat an orange or take a teaspoon of vinegar. That will jump start the citric acid cycle and reduce acetic acid levels, causing more choline to free float. You could also try uridine or fish oil to jump start choline uptake in phospholipid synthesis. The combo would be ideal.

[Baten]

Going to try CDP choline + uridine + extra fish oil, could try the orange + vinegar teaspoon until it arrives.
Could try taking large ammounts of CDP choline since it has uridine as a metabolite.
Coupling this with better diet and more exercise, I'm sure I'll start feeling better soon

[thedevinroy]

CDP Choline also has choline, so dunno if that would help more than hurt in your ear's case. Not really sure where in the brain AChE is in contrast to where CDP choline can go. Try it I suppose.

Your head is different than my head than anyone else's head. Perhaps your AChE expression is imbalanced between certain regions, or even nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. Regardless, tinnitus is some sort of imbalance of signalling. If it is AChE expression imbalance and not nicotinic receptors, you may be in the clear with supplemental doses.

I would think that uridine or fish oil would help more in your case than CDP choline. Just glad you didn't say Alpha GPC.

[abelard lindsay]

I wonder if Acetyl-L-Carnitine would help. That's and NGF promoters like Lion's mane are good for my occasional neuropathy symptoms, like if I tweak a nerve in my back, causing my leg to hurt or feel numb. Tinnitus, AFAIK, is a result of damaged nerves so it may help in a similar fashion. Start with a small dosage to make sure it helps more than hurts before you try more.

[Baten]

Just glad you didn't say Alpha GPC.

I occasionaly take Alpha GPC... mind elaborating on why I should avoid it ?

I wonder if Acetyl-L-Carnitine would help. That's and NGF promoters like Lion's mane are good for my occasional neuropathy symptoms, like if I tweak a nerve in my back, causing my leg to hurt or feel numb. Tinnitus, AFAIK, is a result of damaged nerves so it may help in a similar fashion. Start with a small dosage to make sure it helps more than hurts before you try more.

Will try some ALCAR. Thanks for the tip.

[Baten]

"Galantamine is a competitive and reversible cholinesterase inhibitor", so basically I'm looking to reverse its effects.

If anyone else has ideas, please chime in!

[thedevinroy]

I occasionaly take Alpha GPC... mind elaborating on why I should avoid it ?

Sometimes I talk just to talk, just to inspire further research. I usually don't have all the answers, but if my thoughts are left unsaid you'd have less of an idea on how to conclude interactions or reactions to certain nootropics.

CDP choline is further along in its phospholipid synthesis. It is only one step away from becoming phosphatidylcholine. It is (at least) two steps away from becoming acetylcholine. It must first get stripped of choline (hydrolysis?), then added an acetyl group transferred from Acetyl-CoA. Alpha GPC is also only two steps away from becoming acetylcholine, but it is more than one step away from becoming phosphatidylcholine. Thus, if enzymes were 1 to 1 (which are they ever?) in equal areas of the brain (which they are never) then CDP Choline would have a less likely chance of becoming acetylcholine overall, which may not complicate your problems as much as Alpha GPC (though still providing nootropic effects) if your AChE enzymes or nicotinic receptor densities are out of whack.

Just an idea... it probably doesn't matter at all. Have you noticed an increase in tinnitus with Alpha GPC?

Edited by devinthayer, 19 October 2011 - 02:35 PM.

[thedevinroy]

"Galantamine is a competitive and reversible cholinesterase inhibitor", so basically I'm looking to reverse its effects.

If anyone else has ideas, please chime in!

You could eat some bugs! Ecdysterone is from insect extraction and is available as a supplement.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/6146468

Ecdysterone induces acetylcholinesterase in mammalian brain.
The effects of ecdysterone on brain acetylcholinesterase (AChE) in immature and adult rats of both sexes have been studied in in vitro conditions. Ecdysterone produced an increase of AChE in rat brain slices. The most remarkable effect was found in immature male rats. In vitro assay using a purified AChE from electric eel showed no effect. Pretreatment with cycloheximide or actinomycin D abolished the ecdysterone action on brain AChE. These results support the idea that induction of AChE may be involved in the heterophilic action of ecdysterone.

[thedevinroy]

Galantamine is also a nicotine receptor agonist. An antagonist would reverse this action. Welbutrin is the only one I'd recommend. You could get some laughing gas... that'll work. Amantadine... memantine... methadone... ketamine... ibogaine... a lot of stuff that is hard to get. Welbutrin you can get from your doc as a smoking cession aid or from your psych just because (fairly low side effects, so pyschiatrists dish Bupropion out like candies), and it also peps you up a little.

From WIkipedia:

18-Methoxycoronaridine • α-Bungarotoxin • α-Conotoxin • Alcuronium • Amantadine • Anatruxonium • Atracurium • Bupropion (Amfebutamone) • Chandonium •Chlorisondamine • Cisatracurium • Coclaurine • Coronaridine • Dacuronium • Decamethonium • Dextromethorphan • Dextropropoxyphene • Dextrorphan • Diadonium • DHβE •Dimethyltubocurarine (Metocurine) • Dipyrandium • Dizocilpine (MK-801) • Doxacurium • Duador • Esketamine • Fazadinium • Gallamine • Hexafluronium • Hexamethonium(Benzohexonium) • Ibogaine • Isoflurane • Ketamine • Kynurenic acid • Laudexium (Laudolissin) • Levacetylmethadol • Malouetine • Mecamylamine • Memantine • Methadone •Methorphan (Racemethorphan) • Methyllycaconitine • Metocurine • Mivacurium • Morphanol (Racemorphanol) • Neramexane • Nitrous Oxide • Pancuronium • Pempidine •Pentamine • Pentolinium • Phencyclidine • Pipecuronium • Radafaxine • Rapacuronium • Rocuronium • Surugatoxin • Suxamethonium (Succinylcholine) • Thiocolchicoside •Toxiferine • Trimethaphan • Tropeinium • Tubocurarine • Vecuronium • Xenon

Edited by devinthayer, 19 October 2011 - 02:52 PM.

[Baten]

Thanks for the research devinthayer. Appreciate this a lot. Feeling almost guilty not finding all these things myself.
As for the alpha gpc, I never expierenced any louder tinnitus from choline supplementation..
Taking piracetam every 4 hours seems to either make the sound more tolerable, or cuts down the volume by half.. which seems odd
"Piracetam improves the function of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine via muscarinic cholinergic (ACh) receptors" seems to be the only
ACh related piracetam function. Could be its AMPA/GABA/glutamate stimulating function or even its mechanism on mitochondria, though.

Anyway, will try to get my hands on some Welbutrin. Might as well buy a bottle of Ecdy Sterone. Seems to be anabolic though..
Hope I don't put on too much weight :P .

Again, appreciate your involvement in this thread!

Edited by Baten, 19 October 2011 - 04:27 PM.

[Baten]

Since I'm starting to supplement 2400mg of piracetam 4 times a day, since if I don't I start going crazy from the loud noises inside my head...
I'm kind of starting to be afraid whether or not I'll build tolerance, and the tinnitus alleviating effects will go away.
Or worse, supplementing piracetam 4 times a day, every day, sounds familiar? Maybe I'll turn into a piracetam addicted lunatic (rings any bell..?)

Or I'll just be fine, without the unnerving tinnitus. Time'll tell.

Edited by Baten, 19 October 2011 - 05:26 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Piracetam ain't all that bad. If it works, do it.

Hmm... perhaps it was that you have sensitive nicotinic receptors. I didn't know Piracetam only upregulated muscarinic. That's got to be bitchin for exercise. Welbutrin should definitely help if that's the case. The Ecdysterone might hurt more than help, seeing how you are taking so much Piracetam, that might give you a headache taken together.

[thedevinroy]

Second thought... DON'T try Welbutrin. It can actually cause tinnitus. Something else might be going on. Let me do more research on the other drugs.

[Baten]

Hmm well, it would be pretty easy to get a prescription for Welbutrin. Might as well try if it has positive or negative effects.
Reading up welbutrin+tinnitus on google...

Edited by Baten, 19 October 2011 - 07:13 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Yeah the others are bad too for tinnitus and often list tinnitus as a side effect. Perhaps it is the type of receptors that are increased with Piracetam. Piracetam is golden across the board for tinnitus. That's definitely a good find. Ginkgo also seems good. There are other herbs out there too like WIllow Bark (plus zinc), Rosemary... just something to look into.

Piracetam is also quite a blood thinner. You ever try Pramiracetam? Made me bleed like a mofo. Not sure if it will help hearing bloodflow. I imagine it would.

Edited by devinthayer, 19 October 2011 - 07:21 PM.

[Baten]

Ginko never had a positive effect on me. When my Uridine and ALCAR arrives, might as well use my 'old' ginko caps
in some kind of attack-with-everything-I've-got-approach...

So, from what I gather, some people who expierence tinnitus on welbutrin generics, don't get any on branded welbutrin.
So, definitely going for the more expensive Welbutrin.

Second, people who had tinnitus before the Welbutrin, and expierence louder tinnitus, could just stop supplementation.

Third: some people only expierence tinnitus at 300mg doses, and none at 150mg doses

Generally speaking, tinnitus should be a pretty rare side effect for Welbutrin.

Conclusion: I'll just try if a 150mg dose has a positive effect. People seem to say the tinnitus worsens over time with Welbutrin though..
I guess I should try it a few days, and if no positives are found, I'll stop supplementing before it gets worse?

Edited by Baten, 19 October 2011 - 07:18 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Homework for me and you:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10993695
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11950525
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16307447

You seem to have acetylcholine related tinnitus. Let's find the imbalance rather than jumping to drugs right away. Welbutrin sounds nice in theory, but some people report permanent tinnitus. There is something amiss...

[thedevinroy]

http://journals.lww....overview.5.aspx

[Baten]

Allright, let's scrap the Welbutrin for now.

Again, thanks for the added research, appreciate it a lot! Off to read it all..

[thedevinroy]

From what I understand, the brain uses acetylcholine to "crank up" the knob on your hearing. When you took Galantamine, your tinnitus worsened. Your brain decided that was an appropriate gain level. Welbutrin might help to turn down the gain at small doses, tapering down as needed until the tinnitus has subsided... just in your case it might work. I have no idea. Treatments like this are unheard of.

From http://www.medicinen...nitus/page2.htm :

Tinnitus medications
In many cases, there is no specific treatment for tinnitus. It may simply go away on its own, or it may be a permanent disability that the patient will have to "live with." Some otolaryngologists (ear specialists) have recommendedniacin to treat tinnitus. However, there is no scientific evidence to suggest that niacin helps reduce tinnitus, and it may cause problems with skin flushing.

The drug gabapentin (Neurontin, Gabarone), was studied in high doses, and reduced the annoyance level of the tinnitus in some patients, but did not decrease the volume of the noise, and was not found to be better than placebo.

A 2005 study in Brazil using acamprosate (Campral), a drug used to treat alcoholism, showed a nearly 87% rate of relief of symptoms. Studies of this drug for treatment of tinnitus are currently ongoing in the United States.

From http://www.medicinen...nitus/page3.htm :

What are tinnitus relief remedies?
Some common and easy remedies such as the following may be of benefit to some individuals.

• Reducing or avoiding caffeine and salt intake, and quitting smoking may help relieve tinnitus symptoms.
• Some tinnitus patients have been found to have lower zinc levels and may benefit from zinc supplementation.
• One study showed melatonin may help tinnitus sufferers, particularly those withdisturbed sleep due to the tinnitus. However, this is not yet been verified in controlled studies.
• Ginkgo Biloba has been touted as a natural tinnitus remedy, but controlled studies to date have not shown it to be effective.
• There are some behavioral and cognitive therapies that have been successful in treating tinnitus. Seeking out a multidisciplinary program at a tinnitus center may improve chances of successful treatment. The types of therapies include tinnitus retraining therapy, masking, and behavioral therapy.

[Baten]

I've tried lots of the conventional treatments before I started piracetam (Zink, ginko, quitting caffein, lactose, sugar; doing loads of sports, sound therapy, retraining therapy, ...)
So right now, piracetam is the only thing that helps. Most of the time. Since there's times it can still be awfully annoying, I'm still looking for a better solution.
The galantamine made the tinnitus worse, but in an optimistic approach, it might point me in the direction of a more efficient, better and even permanent solution.

I'll talk to my doctor about trying the Welbutrin. Since it's time release, I can't just cut the 150mg pill. Guess I'll try 150mg for a few days and see if it helps.
Or maybe I could get 75mg pills. Don't think these are conventional though. From my expierence, non-standard doses are mostly generics
and since others say generic = more tinnitus, I'd rather stick to expensively branded Welbutrin.

Finally, "There is now considerable evidence that hearing loss is accompanied by a general decrease in the amount of inhibition in the auditory system. For example, there are reductions in the release of inhibitory neurotransmitters, such as glycine and gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA)". If the nicotinic receptor theory is a miss, I could try exploring the AMPA/GABA/glutamate workings of piracetam. Maybe supplementing with GABA/Glutamine specifially could lead to more tinnitus relief.

Lots of thinking material, either way. Can't thank you enough.

Edited by Baten, 19 October 2011 - 07:46 PM.

[thedevinroy]

No problem. Acetylcholine is definitely related as that's the only stuff involved with Galantamine. Since it worsened the condition, that leads me to believe that the receptors it affected were involved, whether directly or indirectly. Acetylcholine receptor agonism does regulate other receptors involved: AMPA, Dopamine, GABA, etc. so it is really just a clue to the core problem.

[Baten]

Took some Noopept today along with some pramiracetam. Pramiracetam is officially the worst tasting substance in the world.

Noopept definitely has some influence on the tinnitus.. I'm not even sure if it's positive or negative. Will report back later.

Edited by Baten, 20 October 2011 - 04:42 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Pramiracetam tastes like a thousand tiny crazy hairy ants releasing their deadly toxins onto your tongue.

[Baten]

And if you're not careful and get some on your lips, you can relish on that taste for the next hour or so .. :P

On a more serious note, new findings: noopept doesn't really affect my tinnitus in a bad way. Just tightens it a bit, maybe.

Galantamine, on the other hand: dosed just to test its effects again and expierenced 5 hours of a sharp reduction in noise,
followed by the aforementioned increase in noise.

Maybe that happens because it blocks Acetylcholinesterase functions, and when the galantamine no longer works, there's some sort of aftermath?
Perhaps I should search for a long-acting AChE inhibitor to test and see if it helps?

Of course, even if that would work, it would be far from a permanent solution, since it would only provide relief for as long as the AChE gets blocked..

Also decided to not try the Welbutrin, since there's a chance of making things much worse.

Edited by Baten, 21 October 2011 - 06:33 AM.

[thedevinroy]

I didn't realize you had a reduction in noise while on Galantamine. That signals to me that Galantamine induced a change on your brain cells that interpret the noise rather than just getting "stuck" in your synapse from long half life. You are experiencing a rebound effect from a short-term use. That's ridiculous. Yes, don't take Welbutrin.

Perhaps some herbs can balance your neurology a bit better. Some people report a significant reduction with Ginseng supplementation. Ashwagandha is the Indian Ginseng. Ever try that?