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Epitalon (Split from Astragalus thread)


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#1 sciwalk

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 04:27 AM


I am currently trialing Epithalon, I would be more then willing to share my experience if any one is interested?
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#2 boylan

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 02:45 PM

I am currently trialing Epithalon, I would be more then willing to share my experience if any one is interested?


I'd like to hear....

#3 tintinet

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 02:56 PM


I am currently trialing Epithalon, I would be more then willing to share my experience if any one is interested?


I'd like to hear....



1+

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#4 AdamI

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 04:46 PM

I am currently trialing Epithalon, I would be more then willing to share my experience if any one is interested?


I'd like to hear to, Take a before and after picture as well. With a News papers date on it, soo we know its up to date(the picture):)

I checked up a research they did on cells and it said it longicided the telomeres with 33%. Sounds extremely effective... and hopefully cheap.

#5 zorba990

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 02:12 AM

I am currently trialing Epithalon, I would be more then willing to share my experience if any one is interested?


Interested. Source?

#6 sciwalk

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:33 AM

Oh, man, that totally sucks. I had wrote up this long reply and then, I don't know, I click the wrong thing or something and it all just vanished.
Now I have to run to the gym but I will try reply as soon as I get back, sorry for the delay, I did not expect such quick response here and just checked my email to see all the notices, sorry.

#7 smithx

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 04:28 AM

What dosage, and what means of delivery? The mouse studies were as I recall about 40ug/kg by injection, once a day.


I am currently trialing Epithalon, I would be more then willing to share my experience if any one is interested?



#8 Robert89

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 06:58 AM

What dosage, and what means of delivery? The mouse studies were as I recall about 40ug/kg by injection, once a day.



I am currently trialing Epithalon, I would be more then willing to share my experience if any one is interested?


As it's a peptide, it's not very bio-available, hence it really only works by injection. For human use, injecting every day can get quite messy.

#9 rwac

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 07:07 AM

As it's a peptide, it's not very bio-available, hence it really only works by injection. For human use, injecting every day can get quite messy.


I bet you could use liposomal preparations orally.

#10 sciwalk

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 07:21 AM

Robert,
Actually, no. It is a tetra-peptide (only 4 amino acid chain). It is extremely small and can both pass through the skin as well as the blood brain barrier.
I was taking it sublinqual, mixed with Sodium Chloride. But I was not taking enough, my dose, from my continual research, was determined to be to low. I will start a new regime in about 1 week along with 4 others. I think we will probably set up a site on which to report just so that we can keep it consolidated and consistent.
For the time being, I do not know if I am supposed to state where I am getting it but I can say that it is close enough to home that I can actually see the process if I desire. That was the last thing holding me back from a trial on this, was having a reliable, quality, source. If you would like to provide trial information, I can ask about getting some?
Any way, I was only taking about .25mg a day for 14 days, will actually finish tomorrow. The new plan is 3.5mg per day for 14 days, off for 1 month and then repeat. But even with the low dose I took I felt I had some effect. I have more energy, sleep better, can stay focused better, don't fall asleep at my computer, more sexual arousal, my workouts are longer and more intensive without so much ache and the most profound effect, which unlike the others I cannot put off to Placebo, is my eye sight got better. I no longer need my reading glasses.
I did not, do not, actually expect to see any outer visual changes for at least 3 months. Maybe some very slowly leading up to that. I am 50 years old and it took me that long to get to where I am now. This peptide, if it really works, will heal from the inside out and as the inside heals it will quicken the replenishment and improved look of the outside. Although, anecdotal info, I have had quite a few of my friends tell me that I look younger. They do not know I am taking something. But that could be just projected attitude on my part.
I took starting pictures and I will add those to the other site. When that is ready, if anybody wants that info, I will provide it.

#11 sciwalk

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 07:33 AM

Ohh, further to the issue of bio availability and usage: I do plan, this next time, to use DMSO and apply to my skin. Although, Robert, as you did point out, it has been administered to mice and rats sub-q. Someone could do that but you would need to be very careful where and how you get the peptide in that case. I have taken other peptides in the past and currently actually, that I do inject but that is a whole other ball of wax. The most talked about way for this peptide now, and I think the way that Prof. Khavinson's group is planning to get through FDA, is nasal spray.

#12 smithx

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 09:21 AM

You can get Genscript to synthesize this peptide for about $165 a gram in 20 gram quantities at 75% purity.

Edited by smithx, 15 December 2011 - 09:21 AM.


#13 AdamI

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 09:58 AM

With the dosage of 3,5mg a day one gram would last for 285 days or dosages. 1gram=1000mg/3,5mg=285
Soo that is significant cheaper than other telomere extension, if it now works...
Something for RevGen to start selling?
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#14 niner

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 01:36 PM

Any way, I was only taking about .25mg a day for 14 days, will actually finish tomorrow. The new plan is 3.5mg per day for 14 days, off for 1 month and then repeat. But even with the low dose I took I felt I had some effect. I have more energy, sleep better, can stay focused better, don't fall asleep at my computer, more sexual arousal, my workouts are longer and more intensive without so much ache and the most profound effect, which unlike the others I cannot put off to Placebo, is my eye sight got better. I no longer need my reading glasses.
I did not, do not, actually expect to see any outer visual changes for at least 3 months. Maybe some very slowly leading up to that. I am 50 years old and it took me that long to get to where I am now. This peptide, if it really works, will heal from the inside out and as the inside heals it will quicken the replenishment and improved look of the outside. Although, anecdotal info, I have had quite a few of my friends tell me that I look younger. They do not know I am taking something. But that could be just projected attitude on my part.


As you suggest, all of these results with the exception of the change in your eyesight could easily be placebo effects. Epithalon has a lot of reported effects aside from telomerase activation, particularly those surrounding age-related endocrine dysfunction. The change in your eyesight, considering that you were taking a dose that you consider to be too small, and that the route of ingestion is not the most efficient, seems to have happened too fast to have been strictly telomere-related. I say that based on the sort of reports that came from cycloastragenol users, where it sounds like it was a more gradual effect. If it were confirmed by an ophthalmologist or optician, and your prescription was shown to have changed, that would certainly be an impressive outcome. At this point, it all sounds a little too good to be true. In situations like this, I hope for the best, but my mind can't help considering other explanations. I'd like to keep following this epithalon story.

#15 zorba990

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 05:08 PM

You can get Genscript to synthesize this peptide for about $165 a gram in 20 gram quantities at 75% purity.


What would the other 25% be?

#16 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 05:30 PM

Is it Epitalon or Epithalon?

I see it spelled both ways...
A

#17 smithx

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:11 PM

Is it Epitalon or Epithalon?

I see it spelled both ways...
A


It's a Russian word, so the spelling in English is not totally defined. The sequence is:
ALA-GLU-ASP-GLY

Genscript actually quoted $5221.60 for 20g, so that's $261.10 a gram, more expensive than their automated system had said.

If a dose is 5mg, that works out to $1.31 a dose, which is not insanely high. Larger quantities would be less expensive, of course.

Smaller quantities are more expensive. 1g, for example, is $642.40.

But yeah, 75% is probably not what we would want. The other 25% are other peptides as impurities I believe. Genscript can also make 98% purities but those are very expensive until you get to huge batch sizes.

#18 stephen_b

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:37 PM

I believe it's the "th" version, as in "Epithalon Peptide Induces Telomerase Activity and Telomere Elongation in Human Somatic Cells" (PMID 12937682).

#19 smithx

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:55 PM

According to this, they're different names for the same compound:

http://www.chemicalr...s/pid274337.htm


I believe it's the "th" version, as in "Epithalon Peptide Induces Telomerase Activity and Telomere Elongation in Human Somatic Cells" (PMID 12937682).



#20 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 03:58 PM

Thanks smithx,

I am not sure how the FDA would look at this tripeptide, so maybe we could only get it/sell it for research use.

A
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#21 smithx

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:14 PM

I got a quote back from Genscript. 100g of 98% pure Epitalon would cost $25K.

So $250/g, and at 5mg/dose, $1.25 per.

Still not too bad. We could do a group buy if it seems really worth doing.

Or RevGenetics could buy it and sell it for $5 a dose... ;)

#22 AdamI

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:50 PM

I got a quote back from Genscript. 100g of 98% pure Epitalon would cost $25K.

So $250/g, and at 5mg/dose, $1.25 per.

Still not too bad. We could do a group buy if it seems really worth doing.

Or RevGenetics could buy it and sell it for $5 a dose... ;)



Then of course one might not need alot of doses, soo might be even cheaper. 1 gram one family maybe :P

#23 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:11 PM

Uhm... for research of course...

I don't mind looking at this, and maybe participating in a group buy at this stage. Smithx, is that the least they are willing to make, I am not sure we can get a group to buy $25K worth of the material so that we can all kick it around in our research labs...

:)

A

#24 AdamI

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:24 PM

Maybe we should start a new thread for Epitalon? Seems like this discussion will continue

#25 Hebbeh

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:12 PM

Count me in...I've got an aging lab rat.

#26 smithx

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:38 PM

I asked for the smallest quantity at which the per gm price got down near $200. The reply was 100g.

Otherwise, 98% purity is super expensive.


Uhm... for research of course...

I don't mind looking at this, and maybe participating in a group buy at this stage. Smithx, is that the least they are willing to make, I am not sure we can get a group to buy $25K worth of the material so that we can all kick it around in our research labs...

:)

A



#27 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:11 PM

Thanks smithx,

What kind of time span would folks consider for your rats?
3 months? (which is roughly $112.50)
6 months? (which is roughly $225)
12 months? (which is roughly $456.25)

Also, at these 5mg amounts, it appears folks would need to divide it all up in their labs for animal consumption. I would almost propose to contract a capsule company to do it or emulsify it in something and use an eye dropper for proper dosage on a daily basis for consumption by the animal.

Contracting a company is an extra expense, so maybe the eye dropper might be better for this... thoughts?

A

#28 AdamI

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:21 PM

Is it possible to have it in capsules? I thought it was administred with a syringe.
It is already/being tested on humans, soo I prefer to do it on me instead of some rat. Which I don't have...5mg for a rat seems in far excess.

Maybe I'm just missunderstands you and rat is just a word for something else:)
In 2 weeks he's first 3,5 mg dosage a day is done.
Then we will find out more, hopefully on how potent and how long one would want to use it...
As someone pointed out on this forum somewhere. All known telomerase activators, the immune system sooner or later find a cure against. Therefore rendering it not useful anymore.
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#29 niner

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 02:45 PM

Also, at these 5mg amounts, it appears folks would need to divide it all up in their labs for animal consumption. I would almost propose to contract a capsule company to do it or emulsify it in something and use an eye dropper for proper dosage on a daily basis for consumption by the animal.

Contracting a company is an extra expense, so maybe the eye dropper might be better for this... thoughts?


I'd like to hear what sciwalk's experience is with the 3.5mg sublingual dose. It might be the case that a lower dose is sufficient, and that would certainly depend on how efficiently it's absorbed by whatever method is used. Sublingual and nasal spray seem the most promising to me, at the moment. There are probably adjuvants that would help absorption; sciwalk mentioned sodium chloride. We'd want to get that sorted out, and formulate it appropriately.

In order to evaluate Epitalon as a telomere extender, we would need before and after telomere length tests, the cost of which would probably exceed the cost of the Epitalon by a fair amount. In that regard, the new percentage of short telomere test that Maria Blasco's company offers would probably be more telling. I don't know anything about cost or availability of it.

There are other effects of Epitalon, aside from telomerase activation. We may or may not be able to separate those from the effects (if any) on telomeres, but they represent an 'added bonus'. For our rats...

As someone pointed out on this forum somewhere. All known telomerase activators, the immune system sooner or later find a cure against. Therefore rendering it not useful anymore.


I don't think any of the telomerase activators that we're considering are themselves immunologically active, or that there is any immune response that would counter their action. You're probably thinking of something else.

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#30 Hebbeh

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Posted 20 December 2011 - 05:34 PM

I would need 12 months to properly evaluate my rat. And eye dropper would be best for dosing sublingual on the rat.
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