21 replies to this topic

[TheKidInside]

Hey guys, I have a friend who runs to the bathroom 6+ times daily (and not to urinate either). He's a bit of a stubborn mate of mine and isn't too keen on bringing this up to his doctor for fear of being gluten/grain sensitive since he's quiet fond of pasta and a ton of other wheat problems.

as a nutrition major he's asked me regarding this several times but I refuse to help him out until he at least brings this up to his physician (who will inevitably refer him to a GI specialist for further testing).

I am however, quiet curious regarding his condition as aside from what I mentioned, potential reasons for his disorder so if anyone has any experience with this, clinical or anecdotal, feel free to share

much love!

[hippocampus]

irritable bowel syndrome

[PWAIN]

If he has coeliac disease, then he should deal with it sooner rather than later because the villi in his intestines could become too damaged to repair and it could mean a lifetime of problems and an early death.

More likely it is one of numerous problems that in some cases can be treated and never reoccur and in others could be life threatening if not dealt with (like cancer). There is absolutely nothing to be gained by ignoring the problem and a whole heck of a lot by finding out.

[Lufega]

Sounds like he knows what his problem is and what he needs to do about it.  It could be IBS but it also could be gluten, lactose, even fructose allergy related.  If he insists on eating grains while neglecting the health consequences it's having, then maybe a little quercetin might be helpful.  It inhibits GI release of acetylcholine acting as an effective anti-spasmotic.

[niner]

If he's worried about being told that he has to avoid all wheat products forever, he might try a low wheat experiment.  Tell him to cut down on wheat where he can.  If that helps, then he's learned something.  If it makes no difference, he still might have a celiac problem, but he might need to stop all gluten for  a while to see a change.   There is starting to be a lot of good gluten-free options in the US.  I have a couple relatives with celiac, and when I eat at their house I don't even notice that things are gluten free.  This includes pasta dishes like lasagna, for example.  It's not as bad as it used to be to be GF.

He could have various other problems as Lufega mentioned.  From the symptoms, odds are it's celiac.

[TheKidInside]

I have some days where I avoid gluten (because it makes me feel better so I suppose I have somewhat of a gluten sensitivity and moreso a sensitivity for grains in general) and it's definitely not bad at all. I've prepared brown rice penne before for family dinners and not a single person knew it was wheat free for example. Also, I made gluten free steel cut oats and they taste absolutely delish.

quick question, what would the symptoms be of IBS (I know going frequently is one) over say gluten/grain sensitivity ?

[scottknl]

Sodium and Potassium imbalance can cause IBS symptoms like you describe.  The combination of pro-biotic items like kefir, yogurt, sauerkraut can help a lot with the problems you list.  Higher fiber also helps to keep things from moving along too fast.  In my own case an elimination diet helped tremendously.  Start with just rice, rice milk and oatmeal for a couple of days.  Then add some cooked veggies one or two at a time.  Next add a source of protein.  Next add some fats. And finally some spices.  Salads and fruit should be last to add.  Don't add any sugar to the diet. Whenever he finds a food that makes the digestion worse, remove it and go back to the last step that was working.  Work at it slowly and you're friend will get better.  After your friend has a diet of foods that are working for him/her then add in some potassium salt and later some table salt.  Your potassium intake should be 2x as much as your sodium.  I hope that helps.  It's a real drag to have that bad digestion.

[TheKidInside]

thanks a lot Scott as I love when people speak from experience!

[scottknl]

TheKidInside, on 31 January 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

...
quick question, what would the symptoms be of IBS (I know going frequently is one) over say gluten/grain sensitivity ?

IBS comes in 3 different types.  Most common in the western world is constipation predominant which I label IBS-C.  Next is d

iarrhea

predominant which I label IBS-D.   Finally there is the type that alternates between IBS-C and IBS-D which I label IBS-A.

Your friend seems to have IBS-D and the symptoms would be:

• excessively frequent bowel movements
  
• abdominal cramping with pain (often severe)
  
• incomplete digestion  (identifiable food in stool)
  
• low energy for daily tasks
  
• IBS attacks triggered by specific foods
  
• excessive and sometimes painful gas
  
• foul odor (much more than is usual for normal digestion)
  

• Nausea

  
  
• weight loss is common
  
• uncontrollable bowel movements

from this page: http://gluten-intole...e-symptoms.com/
In contrast gluten sensitivity has the following symptoms:

• Abdominal Distention
  
• Abdominal Pain and Cramping
  
• Alternating Bouts of Diarrhea and Constipation
  
• Anemia
  
• Arthritis
  
• Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)
  
• Autism
  
• Bloating (see Gluten Intolerance Bloating)
  
• Bone Density Loss
  
• Borborygmi (stomach rumbling)
  
• Constipation (see Celiac Disease Constipation)
  
• Stunted Growth and Failure to Thrive
  
• Depression, Anxiety and Irritability (see Celiac Depression)
  
• Dermatitis Herpetiformis (skin rash — see my Dermatitis Herpetiformisarticle)
  
• Diabetes
  
• Diarrhea
  
• Fatigue
  
• Malodorous Flatulence
  
• Malodorous Stools
  
• Gluten Ataxia (see my Gluten Ataxia article)
  
• Grayish Stools
  
• Hair Loss (Alopecia)
  
• Headaches and Migraines
  
• Hypoglycemia
  
• Infertility (see Gluten Intolerance and Pregnancy)
  
• Joint pain
  
• Juvenile Idiopathic Arthritis
  
• Lactose intolerance
  
• Mouth sores or mouth ulcers
  
• Nausea
  
• Numbness or tingling in the patient’s hands and feet
  
• Osteoporosis
  
• Peripheral Neuropathy (including either a tingling or sensation of swelling your toes and fingers)
  
• Sjogren’s Disease
  
• Steatorrhea (high lipids in the stool, which may cause the stool to float)
  
• Teeth and Gum Problems
  
• Turner Syndrome
  
• Vitamin and Mineral deficiencies
  
• Vomiting
  
• Unexplained Weight loss
  
• Urticaria

So there's a lot of overlap unfortunately.  Also in my experience western doctors are simply ineffective in treatment for IBS.  It's very frustrating and can be life shattering.  I recommend visiting traditional Chinese medicine practitioners since they treat the body as a system much more effectively and with fewer side effects vs western drugs.

[TheKidInside]

hey Scot thanks a lot for all your input brother! I've a question, if it's indeed the IBS-d(iarrhea) then what would be the correct treatment method? more probiotics in his system? I know you've mentioned traditional Oriental medicine (something I was thinking about doing for my graduate school/Masters degree) actually but in terms of diet, which "adjustments" as we, Westerners would say, would need to be done, the elimination diet ones? Thanks brother

[scottknl]

TheKidInside, on 02 July 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

hey Scot thanks a lot for all your input brother! I've a question, if it's indeed the IBS-d(iarrhea) then what would be the correct treatment method? more probiotics in his system? I know you've mentioned traditional Oriental medicine (something I was thinking about doing for my graduate school/Masters degree) actually but in terms of diet, which "adjustments" as we, Westerners would say, would need to be done, the elimination diet ones? Thanks brother

Hi Kid,  The correct treatment for my case of IBS-D was probiotics from capsules, yogurt, kefir, kombucha and sauerkraut.    Also I had Chinese herbal medicine custom fit to my condition by a retired Chinese medicine doctor with lots of experience.  You may just want to pick up a copy of Bensky's herbal medicine "bible" and view the recipes there.

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/093961667X

The elimination diet is particularly important to make sure that the herbs aren't being affected by the foods in a bad diet.  The Chinese say you have to eat clean in order to see the effect of the herbal medicines.

IMHO the best way to avoid IBS is to eat a balanced vegan diet (supplemented with B12) and to avoid surgery and the antibiotic drugs that are often prescribed after it.

[TheKidInside]

it seems as though that his IBS got worse when he was consuming more fruits and veggies when he was trying to go gluten-free...we are gonna implement an elimination diet as you've outlined this week but once we've isolated the culprit(s) (let's say raw veggies) they must not be consumed at all in the future? if so, how do you go about ensuring the appropriate nutrient balance in the diet (Sicne you mentioned vegan diet I am even more confused) or could you reintroduce those foods once a decent level of probiotic bacteria has been established in the colon?

[rwac]

scottknl, on 09 July 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

IMHO the best way to avoid IBS is to eat a balanced vegan diet (supplemented with B12) and to avoid surgery and the antibiotic drugs that are often prescribed after it.

Let me contrast this with my personal experience. I had to avoid all fiber, and eat white potato, meat (source of glutamine?) and gelatin.

TheKidInside, on 10 July 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

it seems as though that his IBS got worse when he was consuming more fruits and veggies when he was trying to go gluten-free...we are gonna implement an elimination diet as you've outlined this week but once we've isolated the culprit(s) (let's say raw veggies) they must not be consumed at all in the future? if so, how do you go about ensuring the appropriate nutrient balance in the diet (Sicne you mentioned vegan diet I am even more confused) or could you reintroduce those foods once a decent level of probiotic bacteria has been established in the colon?

His GI tract is currently irritated. So he might want to avoid the irritants for now. It's possible that he will be able to reintroduce the foods at some point. Typically, people try cheating every so often and figure out whether they're still sensitive.

Edited by rwac, 10 July 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[TheKidInside]

yeah he's definitely in need of grain-based fiber because when he cut it out because of gluten he got a lot worse. IDK why he was obsessed with gluten-free but it was definitely not working.

So safe to say avoid irritants for about a month or so and then give them a try. how about in terms of nutrients?

[rwac]

TheKidInside, on 10 July 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

yeah he's definitely in need of grain-based fiber because when he cut it out because of gluten he got a lot worse. IDK why he was obsessed with gluten-free but it was definitely not working.

So safe to say avoid irritants for about a month or so and then give them a try. how about in terms of nutrients?

I wonder if there was some nutrient in bread that he was missing, as opposed to fiber. Is he getting adequate carbs? What did he replace the bread with?

You should plug it into cron-o-meter to check the nutrients.

[TheKidInside]

i believe gluten free carbs like sweet potatoes, regular white potatoes, spelt, amaranth. that should have done it.

[rwac]

It's not as simple as just removing the gluten. His gut could be sensitive to any of the above. I would suspect the spelt and amaranth because they are kindof exotic. I had to remove all fiber to help my IBS.

[scottknl]

It is probably impossible to follow an elimination diet and also get full nutrition at the same time.  Right now your friend is likely malnourished due to the speed at which food is moving through his digestive system.  So it will have to continue until he established a "critical mass" of gut bacteria in the right proportions.   Foods that are neutral include cooked rice, soaked oatmeal, taro, sweet potato... etc. and these are the ones that should form the basis of the elimination diet.  In Traditional Chinese Medicine foods are classified as warm, neutral or cold.  It sounds as if your friend is cold in nature currently, and needs to focus on warm foods since the raw fruits and veggies are often cold in nature.  Root vegetables are warmer/warming to the body generally.  Cooked foods also often remove some of the coldness.  Here's a list of foods:
http://www.shen-nong...y_food_tcm.html  There are many such lists.  Search TCM cold foods.
Spices are generally good as long as they are well tolerated.  Agitation, fever, headaches, bleeding, sores or pimples are examples of what happens when you over do the hot foods and your body is already hot.  

All that being said, there is a treatment called a fecal transplant and just as it sounds, you put some good poo (often from a close relative to avoid disease) inside a sick person and the bacteria establish themselves in the gut and can cure problems like c-diff infections etc.  Most doctors won't do it right now, but if you search, you may find one.

[scottknl]

rwac, on 10 July 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

scottknl, on 09 July 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

IMHO the best way to avoid IBS is to eat a balanced vegan diet (supplemented with B12) and to avoid surgery and the antibiotic drugs that are often prescribed after it.

Let me contrast this with my personal experience. I had to avoid all fiber, and eat white potato, meat (source of glutamine?) and gelatin.

TheKidInside, on 10 July 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

it seems as though that his IBS got worse when he was consuming more fruits and veggies when he was trying to go gluten-free...we are gonna implement an elimination diet as you've outlined this week but once we've isolated the culprit(s) (let's say raw veggies) they must not be consumed at all in the future? if so, how do you go about ensuring the appropriate nutrient balance in the diet (Sicne you mentioned vegan diet I am even more confused) or could you reintroduce those foods once a decent level of probiotic bacteria has been established in the colon?

His GI tract is currently irritated. So he might want to avoid the irritants for now. It's possible that he will be able to reintroduce the foods at some point. Typically, people try cheating every so often and figure out whether they're still sensitive.

rwac, thanks for your input.  Just to clarify, a healthy person would likely avoid IBS with the balanced vegan diet... etc.  Meat is very often contaminated with pathogens that can cause some IBS symptoms.  Proper cooking/ meat handling blah blah blah...  or just eat vegan.  
I was not trying to say that Kid's friend should eat this way right now.  I certainly couldn't when I was sick for 10+ years with IBS.

IBS is a complex subject and I've seen lots of advice that didn't work for one person and but worked for the original person.  This is the reason Chinese medicine is custom prescribed to the individual patient.  In my own case, my previous symptoms lined up pretty good with Kid's friend, so I think my advice will be helpful.  

Just for clarification, once a good balance of gut bacteria is established, one can slowly resume eating normal foods.  But I advise against doing so, because that's what got you into trouble in the first place.  Instead, use the opportunity to clean up your diet and optimize what you eat.  Hence the advice on vegan diet etc.

[niner]

I think scottknl's advice is very good.  I would alter it in one way, which is that I think Kid's friend should ultimately eat a healthy diet that he's evolutionarily adapted to.  That will probably not contain some modern industrial foods, but it might also not be vegan.   I don't think vegan works for everyone.

[Hip]

If it is IBS that he has, note that IBS has been linked to infection with the intestinal parasite Blastocystis hominis. 1 Blasto is very hard to treat, but the triple drug cocktail recommended at www.badbugs.org has apparently been successful.

IBS is also linked to another intestinal parasite: Giardia lamblia. 1  Giardia is a bit more straightforward to treat.

Edited by Hip, 18 July 2012 - 07:40 PM.

[TheKidInside]

now how about IBS-C where you seem constipated. I am actually trying to ascertain if that is what I have. Sometimes I don't go for an entire day, but also that has started happening of late since I've been doing a 16 hour fast from dinner to breakfast. So I wonder if that's because I am consuming much less food or what. Thanks in advance to all.