223 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

Sulfate then, has no benefit other than improving blood test parameters? Maybe the joints use a little bit of sulfur?

[neuralis]

LEF just released an extensive article on Magnesium-L-Threonate

 

http://www.lifeexten...ampaign=CVE601E

[YOLF]

Good read, though it would seem to disagree on some points of this topic if I'm remembering them correctly. 

 

So how does the point about Mg Threonate being superior to other Mgs weigh to what we've learned from this discussion?

[airplanepeanuts]

Scienceguy's argument is based on a study that shows high dosage (hypermagnesemia inducing )IV Magnesium sulfate in  patients with acute brain injury raises brain Magnesium up to 15 percent and another paper which states that Mag Threonate raises  brain Magnesium to a similar degree.

 

It's a terrible argument because the dosage is not considered (Mag Threonate is not commonly used in particular high dosages), IV is not as convenient as oral, the patients in the study had brain injuries which might affect the brain blood barrier. These points were already made in this thread as far as I remember. (maybe there are more)

 

Meanwhile a lot of research seems to demonstrate cognitive benefits from Mag Threonate in humans.

[mangalorecafe]

Wrong again,

In response to Scienceguy's, know it all attitude and cautioning / fault finding on drinking magnesium bicarbonate, with it's alkalizing properties, I present a sampling of the research literature.

(So remember Scienceguy's timely Halloween fear mongering opinions with the boogieman of "YEAST OVERGROWTH" from drinking magnesium bicarbonate water)

The ingestion of water containing bicarbonate is associated with a reduction in BP, reduced incidence of kidney stones, reduced incidence of diabetes, increased bone health and increased exercise performance to name a few. Various minerals are used in these clinical studies (magnesium, potassium, calcium and sodium). However, magnesium bicarbonate has the added benefit of increasing body magnesium.

In no particular order:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22825995
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19954956
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19954569
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19911684
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14749747
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22941193
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12001016
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11756061

 

The first study is not about Magnesium Bicarbonate as a supplement but about Plasma Bicarbonate levels.
The second study is about sodium Bicarbonate water and not about Magnesium at all.
I did not bother to read the other studies.
I personally think the Sodium bicarbonate water gave results because they were just drinking more water? LoL

[mangalorecafe]

Wow this is an old thread.
My conclusion and my own 2 cents.
First of all i look at the money.
magnesium-L-threonate is magtien a patented form used in all the magnesium-L-threonate supplement.
The lifeextension article sounds like one of those quantum physics scam  products that was developed by a bunch of "MIT scientist" (well they were not) that make you immortal by just placing your cup of coffee on it.

magnesium-L-threonate is obviously being promoted. Yes swansons or whoever are either writing fake reviews or maybe its the manufacturing company that supplies them obviously running a huge marketing campaign for magnesium-L-threonate. No there are some genuine reviewers too who are just feeling the effects of a good supplement. And maybe the placebo effect.

I was just skimming this but I learned from the comments that magnesium-L-threonate is similar to ascorbate. Which as per my finding on the net is not a good form of Mg.
Correct me if I am wrong on the above. but if its true then my doubt was right. magnesium-L-threonate is just a fancy name giving for an older formula with something change which in this case is Magnesium ascobrate. They(MIT scientists :-P) just modified ascorbate to make magnesium-L-threonate. This is not a conclusion but just what me making sense of what I skimmed through and connecting the dots.

Ancient mineral promotes Magnesium Chloride cause they sell only that if you want to be cynical. But then maybe some companies want to give the best product and after doing a lot of research settled on MgCl as the best source and then gone around marketing.

I was almost going to buy magnesium-L-threonate but Now I wont thanks science guy. I am going to buy MgCl and also soak in epsom salts.

See how I feel. I just feel great right now spraying MgCl flakes mixed with half the amount rose water(had a rose water spray did not want to throw it out. The ingredients said rose extract and distilled water and it smells awesome) and I really get sleepy and if I spray it in my navel I just think it is more effective. I am spraying it in my feet too.
I am not eating it because I got this from a chemical company and not a supplement company. It is food grade but I just got it make nigari Tofu. So I would rather not ingest it until I know.

I had two samples one had dirt so I am spraying that. Both became liquid and soggy .
the other one which is much whiter I do sometimes add a little to some drink. Today I added to my tomato curry. Now I feel great and I was feeling very happy. Like i took some happy drug.

My History is I am overweight I just lost track of my body health and life and Now after binging on some restaurant food which was adulterated with some compounds like Ammonium Carbonate that deplete magnesium I think I got a magnesium deficiency(I also had Loose motion for a year which I thought was IBS but that turned out to be Navel Displacement I think even that causes magenesium Def)

went through bad personal problem so was nto able to sleep at all. Which I think was also due to Mg defeciency and then the bad street food and additives in chocolate compounds got to me I guess.

Now my BP wwas high and I am on ayurvedic tablets to control it. After apply this MgCL I have topically I am feeling much better.

Even before this BP attack I remember when I had Nigary tofu(morinaga organic silken fofu) My brain lit up. When I just licked the water off the tetra pack.
Wow I knew I was on to something. and then I figured by body is telling me I need nigari.
So I got some nigary to make tofu and eat it.

This reminds me after being anti-soy and finding all those studies that linked Japanese Longevity with soy was wrong I think I have changed my stance.
Well its actually the same I used to say its not the soy but the traditional method the brine and the other superfods like seaweed ginger and the bittergourd that is part of their diet that makes them live longer.
Now it is the tofu and nigari is MgCl rich

I am just not sure how much MG actually stays back. I think alot more is retained in the Soft silken pudding/curd type tofu. Since the water is not pressed out.

I have eaten firm tofu and it still gives me a brain buzz. Its just like those reviews of magnesium-L-threonate where they say they can actually feel the magnesium-L-threonate cross the BBB I feel the same when I eat MgCl Tofu.

So sum it up I am going to skip the magnesium-L-threonate I will surely take it once to see if its better. Right now I am going order Nutricology, Magnesium Chloride Liquid/
This seems to be the most cost effective filler free supplement I can find that ships to my country.

I cant find any filler free magnesium-L-threonate that on Iherb or a similar cost effective shipping charge. So I will stick with MgCl for now.

Thanks a lot everyone for all their valuable inputs.

Edited by mangalorecafe, 23 September 2016 - 06:43 PM.

[YOLF]

Actually, I've been trying L-threonine and magnesium separately after a few months of using Mg Threonate and there are definite differences. The question is the value of those differences:

 

2-3g daily of L-Threonine + various forms of Mg including oxide, aspartate, and taurate:

Better long term recall for things happening months ago

Better window into recall of the distant past and childhood memories?

More fluid

 

2-3g daily of Mg Threonate + Mg oxide and aspartate:

More effortless and stable/consistent visual recall with more certainty

More stable mood

I do feel smarter using Mg Threonate than just taking threonate

 

I'm presently at the conclusion that conjugates make all the difference.

 

Considerations:

I find it odd that my L-Threonate smells somewhat like bovine collagen. Is it supposed to do that?

[ta5]

Actually, I've been trying L-threonine and magnesium separately after a few months of using Mg Threonate and there are definite differences. The question is the value of those differences:

 

Magnesium L-Threonate doesn't contain L-Threonine.

 

Magnesium L-Threonate comprises the salt of L-Threonic Acid combined with Magnesium. Threonic acid is a sugar acid derived from Threose, and L-Threose is a metabolite of Vitamin C. Threose is a four-carbon monosaccharide or carbohydrate with molecular formula C4H8O4.

But I know it sounds like it should be Threonine since Magnesium Glycinate is Glycine, and Magnesium Taurinate is Taurine.

[YOLF]

Hmmm... so this stuff inhibits the DKK1 gene which affects embryonic development... is this stuff a teratogen? Does it affect my sperm? Is it going to give me child prodigies when I have kids someday? What is the effect of using this stuff? 

Edited by YOLF, 23 September 2016 - 11:34 PM.

[Heisok]

From a post above: "magnesium-L-threonate is magtien a patented form used in all the magnesium-L-threonate supplement.
The lifeextension article sounds like one of those quantum physics scam  products that was developed by a bunch of "MIT scientist" (well they were not) that make you immortal by just placing your cup of coffee on it.

magnesium-L-threonate is obviously being promoted. Yes swansons or whoever are either writing fake reviews or maybe its the manufacturing company that supplies them obviously running a huge marketing campaign for magnesium-L-threonate. No there are some genuine reviewers too who are just feeling the effects of a good supplement. And maybe the placebo effect."

 

I do not have an opinion aboput your Magnesium supplement strategy. I do think that you should read the research, before accusibg LEF of scam like behavior. I do not agree with all of their practices, but for over 30 years, they have provided information which they document to the highest degree. They have done this with their magnesium l-threonate information The link below takes you to a 2012 article. They have covered the issues more since then. It would be a waste of time for anyone to try to prove this to you. Do the reading, and make your choices.

 

Good luck, Magnesium supplementation is a tricky subject as there are so many forms.

 

 

If you have any questions on the scientific content of this article, please call a Life Extension® Health Advisor at 1-866-864-3027.

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http://www.lifeexten...eration/page-01

Edited by Heisok, 24 September 2016 - 09:12 PM.

[YOLF]

I've taken most of them now, and threonate is definitely the best form imo for memory. I'm definitely more on top of things on threonate than on taurate, aspartate or oxide. The debate is finished for me based on my personal experience. And if I have previously indicated otherwise, I've changed my mind and recognized some confounding factors in that point of view.

 

In fact, since I have alot of the forms (in powders and pills), I'll do a group buy if I can get 20+ people interested and 7 day sample packs.

I have:

 

Anything in particular that people want to compare?

 

 

I have several types of Ca I've experimented with as well.

 

Origin:

Powder City

Bulk Supplements

Pure Bulk

Vitacost

Swanson

+ more

 

Don't worry, I'll split off these posts into a separate topic later if there is interest.

Edited by YOLF, 25 September 2016 - 08:53 PM.

[zorba990]

I like threonate as there are zero digestive issues. But the dose of mg is low for just kg repletion. I may try the acetate form described here

https://raypeatforum...etabolism.7188/


"IF one already has sufficient cellular magnesium reserves built up (RBC magnesium > 5.3), then supplementing with 20g/day of magnesium acetate (oral or transdermal), usually produces an instant "fountain of youth" effect. Nearly limitless energy and mental clarity. If one is depleted on magnesium reserves, then no energy boost is noted at first, but picks up in 4-6 weeks as magnesium levels build up. The magnesium (once inside of cells) allows the bicarbonate to enter, performing the magic.

Also, magnesium acetate can be made into a thick liquid and applied to the skin transdermally, or loaded into a "patch" for absorption. The transdermal portion does not contribute to diarrhea.

For more info (link to current summary sheet in my dropbox)
http://tinyurl.com/mag-ace

Also started a forum thread on Life-Extension here:

http://ask.lef.org/15623/

my $0.02
--ghg"

[YOLF]

IDK, Mg Acetate sounds like snake oil the way it's written... is it going to make me young looking again? Seems like 20g orally would be an overdose... is everyone still keeping an adequate Ca to Mg ratio? I know I had to start paying closer attention to that. All Mg and no Ca can cause imbalances and lead to joint problems that are bad for overall health and would eventually effect cognition. 

[mangalorecafe]

IDK, Mg Acetate sounds like snake oil the way it's written... is it going to make me young looking again? Seems like 20g orally would be an overdose... is everyone still keeping an adequate Ca to Mg ratio? I know I had to start paying closer attention to that. All Mg and no Ca can cause imbalances and lead to joint problems that are bad for overall health and would eventually effect cognition. 

 

That is interesting. I fell the same about Magnesium L-Threonate. And it seems to be just a slight variation of a sulfate so they could patent it. Everyone seems to be commenting that it breaks the BBB and they can feel. Its very obvious that if its a genuine review they read the marketing and are now just feeling the placebo or its just fake reviews by the patent holding manufacturers. It does not take much to write fake reviews. Its happening on amazon. Sellers offer youtubers and just random people(Through those agencies that offer you part time work from home) amazong gift vouchers to buy their own products. Amazon thinks its genuine customer they get the verifed customer tag and then they write such reviews. Its very easy to get people to write the reviews but you can easily identify it when they seem to use the same language. It seems the Threonate bulk manufactureres have done a great job of convincing supplement makers it works there are just too many supplements around.

On the other hand there are no supplements of Magnesium acetate I google and find none. It throws up some supplements only if I enter the keyword supplements but those are magensium supplements with retinol acetate or some other acetate.
Magnesium acetate has been around in the pharma industry and all google throws up are bulk drug manufacturers. I am guessing since its only restricted to Pharma use this must be the most absorbable form but not used as oxide and citrates are cheaper

You can see it come up as bulk drug manfuctureres selling it but you still don't find it in any drug as such.

So either the guy who is promoting Magnesium acetate is batshit crazy(which is just rhetoric) but I wouid believe them because he is not even selling a supplement. there are supplements yet to come out or easily available. While with Threonate its a blooming industry.
Its seems they have seen potential in this Mg industry and decided if they want to make money they need to have a patented product in there that nobody else can sell for cheaper.

Just my two cents. This is not my conclusion but I think the jury is out there for both Theronate and acetate and this is my initial  leanings. Apart from the science and the anecdotal claims that both have in plenty (actually Threonate has more since well they make profits) I think we should also look at motive and other aspects.
hear from others.

[YOLF]

Well, I'm telling you I've taken multiple forms and benefited most from Threonate... Conjugates are being used in pharma to target certain cells all the time, it works. Perhaps the MgT makers are sponsoring reviews, but if it works better than the competition and has the best benefits, I want to hear about it! 

 

Sponsorship schemes aren't always simply do x and I'll give you money either. There are ways to do this right, so just sponsoring it isn't enough to say it's corrupt unless they are selling an inferior product and calling it the best.

[pamojja]

Well, I'm telling you I've taken multiple forms and benefited most from Threonate...

 

I suffer and still have not overcome Mg deficiency. All what helps to avoid at least pain-full muscle crams is to get a certain amount of elemental Magnesium, about 2 g/d. Tested all better bio-available forms, but none made a difference. After reading this post by niner 4 1/2 years ago I had the same experience with Mg oxide too. Maybe Mg-threonate would be better in the longer run, but at that intake level simply not affordable to me. Didn't felt anything superior when taking it.

Edited by pamojja, 29 September 2016 - 12:22 PM.

[mangalorecafe]

Well, I'm telling you I've taken multiple forms and benefited most from Threonate... Conjugates are being used in pharma to target certain cells all the time, it works. Perhaps the MgT makers are sponsoring reviews, but if it works better than the competition and has the best benefits, I want to hear about it! 

 

Sponsorship schemes aren't always simply do x and I'll give you money either. There are ways to do this right, so just sponsoring it isn't enough to say it's corrupt unless they are selling an inferior product and calling it the best.

 

As I take various forms of MgCl only I am learning they are not made the same. I have taken bulk MgCl its food grade but I am a bit scared to take it internally as it comes from a chemical company that trades in a lot of dangerous chemicals along with the harmless food grade ones like MgCl.(But now I am learning that supplement companies source their raw material from chemical companies and use food grade or pharma grade variants so I think my fear is baseless) So I waited for my Nutricology MgCl liquid with not additives just lactic acid and deionized water.

When I first took it I felt great. The second day a little too much fell into my chammomile tea and I did not sleep the entire night had a light loose motion.
Today I had little around 3 ml and I am feeling amazing and sleepy.

I tried applying it trans dermal but its not that effective. The bulk chemical which I have work amazing and sometimes I would just lick my finger and that was enough to make me feel awesome. I used to spray it everywhere without diluting it just making a thick paste.
Now coming to Threonate what I found that it contains around 120mg to 240mg of Magnesium per serving/capsule. While MgCl contains only 66mg per 2.5ml So taking 4 serving gives me 240mg while just one tablet of Threonate would give me that.
So I am starting to think that maybe Threonate has more mg per serving that is why you feel better and yes its tolerated better. I think you can easily take upto 580mg of magnesium and not get loose motions.
But I think I must have dropped in 20 ml of MgCl in my tea and the loosies start.

Also I think my next purchase will be Theronate cause per mg of Mg threonate seems to be not a lot more costlier than MgCL atleast the Nutricology Liquid that I bought. Not sure if capsules with fillers(have nto found a filler free one) MgCl might be even cheapers I need to check that out.

Till then if anyone can tell me if I am wrong in anyway always welcome

[YOLF]

 

Well, I'm telling you I've taken multiple forms and benefited most from Threonate...

 

I suffer and still have not overcome Mg deficiency. All what helps to avoid at least pain-full muscle crams is to get a certain amount of elemental Magnesium, about 2 g/d. Tested all better bio-available forms, but none made a difference. After reading this post by niner 4 1/2 years ago I had the same experience with Mg oxide too. Maybe Mg-threonate would be better in the longer run, but at that intake level simply not affordable to me. Didn't felt anything superior when taking it.

 

 

As far as muscle cramps go, nothing works as well as food for that... I just haven't found a supplement that does that. Though perhaps creatine? It does work like that and I don't get cramps when I take it, and while I don't see any data to suggest it, you really do need to take it regularly, and it is bad to skip a dose or load and unload with the stuff, it might also cause headaches. But it definitely helps you get more fuel in as T is good for muscle metabolism. You should get more of that, or take some T boosting supplements, more fuel in means taking in more Mg and slowing metabolism is the cause of many aging related problems. What do your T levels look like?

[pamojja]

 

 

Well, I'm telling you I've taken multiple forms and benefited most from Threonate...

 

I suffer and still have not overcome Mg deficiency. All what helps to avoid at least pain-full muscle crams is to get a certain amount of elemental Magnesium, about 2 g/d. Tested all better bio-available forms, but none made a difference. After reading this post by niner 4 1/2 years ago I had the same experience with Mg oxide too. Maybe Mg-threonate would be better in the longer run, but at that intake level simply not affordable to me. Didn't felt anything superior when taking it.

 

 

As far as muscle cramps go, nothing works as well as food for that... I just haven't found a supplement that does that. Though perhaps creatine? It does work like that and I don't get cramps when I take it, and while I don't see any data to suggest it, you really do need to take it regularly, and it is bad to skip a dose or load and unload with the stuff, it might also cause headaches. But it definitely helps you get more fuel in as T is good for muscle metabolism. You should get more of that, or take some T boosting supplements, more fuel in means taking in more Mg and slowing metabolism is the cause of many aging related problems. What do your T levels look like?

 

Actually cron-o-metered myself for 3 years and according to that was getting about 630 mg of Magnesium per day from food alone. That's a lot.

 

Started a Magnesium rich mineral water, from which I nowadays get more than half of my supplemental 2 gram per day of elemental Magnesium (Rogadska Donat Mg).

 

Take creatine consistently at about 2 g per day divided in 3 doses. Didn't do anything in that respect.

 

My free testosterone has been below normal for about 7-8 years. Handfuls of T boosting supplements didn't budge it even a bid. Until last November, when I finally found a endocrinologist who would prescribe TRT. But then it totally unexpectedly started to rise:

 

LH and FSH almost doubled and are now midrange.
Total testosterone went from 340 to an all time high of 588 ng/dl (193-740 normal range; lowest ever was at 187).
Free testosterone went from its lowest 4.2 gradually up to now 10.3 pg/ml (8.7-54.7 range).
 

Somehow feel it's the other way around, and that my consistently titrating Magnesium intake just at my bowel-tolerance for 8 years did finally pay off and allowed my T to normalize too. Will know more with coming tests.

Edited by pamojja, 30 September 2016 - 10:22 PM.

[Heisok]

pamojja,

 

I am glad you mentioned your mineral water. I remember you posted the makeup of it in another post. It had a good amount of Sodium, but I forget if you also take Potassium. I wonder if it might be a balancing between the minerals in addition to more Magnesium related to the cramping. I have had periodic bad nighttime muscle cramping, and I have not figured out exactly which combination helps the most, but I SEEM to have gotten better with additional sea salt, about 500 to 600 mg a day of elemental Potassium from Gluconate along with around 2000 mg of Magnesium.

 

Yolf, I will try Creatine if the cramps get bad again.

[pamojja]

I wonder if it might be a balancing between the minerals in addition to more Magnesium related to the cramping.

 

Yes it is. Experimented with various Na, Ka and Mg intakes, and I seem to do better with more of them all. At the moment supplementally also get 3g Sodium (2g from diet) and 2g Potassium (4.2g from diet) per day.

 

Also monitor my serum levels and do yearly HTMAs. Have been low most of the time. Most severely in whole blood Mg.

Edited by pamojja, 30 September 2016 - 10:48 PM.

[Heisok]

Thank you!

[YOLF]

So I stopped taking Mg Threonate as it was imbalancing my Ca/Mg ratio and I waste too much Ca apparently. Then I decide to look and see if anyone stuck a Ca to threonic acid and low and behold it's been done and treats the joint symptoms I'm either having from it or that it's contributing to probably due to an imbalance of Mg to Ca. Wouldn't it be a better option than Mg Threonate anyways? Has anyone tried it? Does it confer the same cognitive benefits in addition to the joint benefits?

[mpe]

So I stopped taking Mg Threonate as it was imbalancing my Ca/Mg ratio and I waste too much Ca apparently. Then I decide to look and see if anyone stuck a Ca to threonic acid and low and behold it's been done and treats the joint symptoms I'm either having from it or that it's contributing to probably due to an imbalance of Mg to Ca. Wouldn't it be a better option than Mg Threonate anyways? Has anyone tried it? Does it confer the same cognitive benefits in addition to the joint benefits?

 

Perhaps, you should simply cycle the Mg Threonate. Month on, two weeks off ?

 

Mike

[YOLF]

I don't seem to benefit from the Mg so much as I do Ca. I'll have both and will see if a combination is as good or better than one or the other for memory, but given the efficacy of the CaThreo on bones and osteoporosis, I think it's better this way. I remember when I first started taking it that MgThreo was somewhat sedating, yet Ester C seems to be better for energy levels. 

 

I'm also thinking that I've tried cycling it and the mineral imbalance was still bad for me. I've stopped taking supplemental Mg altogether... if anything, I'll take 1 dose of MgThreo/wk and hope it recycles into CaThreo, that does seem to help a little. Or perhaps, just a very mild dose of MgThreo along with Ca.

[airplanepeanuts]

So I stopped taking Mg Threonate as it was imbalancing my Ca/Mg ratio and I waste too much Ca apparently. 

 

How does one notice that Ca/Mg balance is too far on the Mg side?

 

For me Ca citrate makes me spaced out. And I think I get enough Calcium from my diet anyway.

I take Magnesium threonate for brain health and not as a magnesium supplement.

[stan08]

So I stopped taking Mg Threonate as it was imbalancing my Ca/Mg ratio and I waste too much Ca apparently.

How does one notice that Ca/Mg balance is too far on the Mg side?

For me Ca citrate makes me spaced out. And I think I get enough Calcium from my diet anyway.
I take Magnesium threonate for brain health and not as a magnesium supplement.

For me, it's when my joints hurt really bad. That's why I currently take life extension neuro-mag before bed. It includes 144 mg as magnesium l-threonate and 500 mg of calcium along with vitamin d. Great sleep and no joint pain.

[airplanepeanuts]

Neuro-Mag does not contain Calcium. Sorry if I misunderstand you here?

[stan08]

Neuro-Mag does not contain Calcium. Sorry if I misunderstand you here?

Their powdered version does - http://m.iherb.com/L...-oz-225-g/40285

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

Well, I'm telling you I've taken multiple forms and benefited most from Threonate...

 

I suffer and still have not overcome Mg deficiency. All what helps to avoid at least pain-full muscle crams is to get a certain amount of elemental Magnesium, about 2 g/d. Tested all better bio-available forms, but none made a difference. After reading this post by niner 4 1/2 years ago I had the same experience with Mg oxide too. Maybe Mg-threonate would be better in the longer run, but at that intake level simply not affordable to me. Didn't felt anything superior when taking it.

 

 

You WOULDN'T.

 

Most of the MagLT ends up in your brain - not your muscles.

 

MagLT is the wrong form for muscle-pains. Exogenous Mag-Oxide isn't a bad idea when you need it for your muscles - purchase some form of spray and apply directly to the skin.

 

 

If you need it for your muscles, then eating Mag isn't always the best solution - there are other ways to get it into the muscles.