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Joint Supplements?

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#1 BDon

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:40 AM


Specifically for Rotator-Cuffs. I pretty much go heavy on military press thought I can supplement something for it. I was thinking...

Cissus Quad (10g Training days, 3-5g Off days)
Liquid Omega-3/Fish-oil (2000mg EPA : 1000mg DHA on Training Days, and something 800-875mg EPA : 400-500mg DHA on Off days)
Vit. D-3 5,000 IU daily

Reason why I split off days doses and training days doses is to get more bang for my buck out of these supplements so It can last me awhile. I hear good things about Collagen also.

I'd appreciate all the help!


- Brandon
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#2 Luminosity

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 03:52 AM

I'd recommend Swanson's brand Type II Chicken collagen. It's sold in capsules but is not really well digested in pill form. I would take the contents of the bottle and put in it a clean pickle jar with room temperature water until the capsules are dissolved. (About eight hours at room temperature, mixing periodically). The keep the jar in the frig. Take twice a day on an empty stomach with vitamin C or juice containing vitamin C. Wait at least twenty minutes to eat.

MSM is another good one. It is also best taken dissolved in water with vitamin C on an empty stomach. You have to take it separate from the collagen and wait at least twenty minutes. You can just mix the powder with water before you take it. You can take up to one or two teaspoons at a time, twice a day, if you can tolerate that much. If you have sluggishness, gas or bloating cut down the dose. If fact start smaller and work up to tolerance.

Vitamin C in general will help. Being well-nourished in general will help. Try to eat a steamed green vegetable every day. Try to avoid sodas and energy drinks. Listen to your body.
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#3 BDon

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 08:53 AM

Thank you!

That's new to me neverheard Type II Chicken Collagen. Sounds like a long process lol

Most that I know only take Glucosamine no MSM or Chondroitin.

Ever hear of Cissus Quad.?

Also Fish Oil high dised at 2000mg EPA, 1000mg DHA is any good or thats too much?

I hear Vitamin C 3,000mg - 5,000 mg daily is great for you and acts as a dieuretic

I'd recommend Swanson's brand Type II Chicken collagen. It's sold in capsules but is not really well digested in pill form. I would take the contents of the bottle and put in it a clean pickle jar with room temperature water until the capsules are dissolved. (About eight hours at room temperature, mixing periodically). The keep the jar in the frig. Take twice a day on an empty stomach with vitamin C or juice containing vitamin C. Wait at least twenty minutes to eat.

MSM is another good one. It is also best taken dissolved in water with vitamin C on an empty stomach. You have to take it separate from the collagen and wait at least twenty minutes. You can just mix the powder with water before you take it. You can take up to one or two teaspoons at a time, twice a day, if you can tolerate that much. If you have sluggishness, gas or bloating cut down the dose. If fact start smaller and work up to tolerance.

Vitamin C in general will help. Being well-nourished in general will help. Try to eat a steamed green vegetable every day. Try to avoid sodas and energy drinks. Listen to your body.


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#4 ta5

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 05:21 AM

And:
Jarrosil/Biosil
Maybe Manganese
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#5 Luminosity

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 06:02 AM


Ever hear of Cissus Quad.?

NO

Also Fish Oil high dised at 2000mg EPA, 1000mg DHA is any good or thats too much?

PERSONALLY I STOPPED TRYING TO TAKE FISH OILS YEARS AGO BECAUSE ALL THAT I TRIED WERE RANCID. I TRY TO EAT FRESH FISH AND OTHER FOOD SOURCES OF GOOD FATS. CAN'T COMMENT ON THE DOSAGE BUT YOU MIGHT WANT TO OPEN IT UP AND SMELL IT AND TASTE IT TO SEE IF IT'S RANCID. THINK ABOUT HOW FISH COULD BE KEPT FRESH FOR YEARS AT ROOM TEMPERATURE, OR EVEN REFRIGERATED.

I hear Vitamin C 3,000mg - 5,000 mg daily is great for you and acts as a dieuretic

THAT SOUNDS TOO HIGH. IF IT IS ACTING AS A DIURETIC, IT IS TOO HIGH FOR SURE. YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT.

TRYING TO FORCE STUFF WITH YOUR BODY WILL BACKFIRE ON YOU IN TIME.


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#6 BDon

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:46 AM

Thanks guys you guys ROCK! :)
Honestly yes I just want something to keep my joints strong, lubricated and active. I read the best is injections of Deca and Growth-Hormone. But I am natural and I don't want to consider that as I am 21. I could say I am a bit short on the money so I have to focus on the necessities.

I keep hearing that Glucosamine, MSM, Chondroitin isn't really effective. It works substantially over time within over several weeks.

High-dosing of Fish-oil apparently works great for the joints

Cissus quad. is actually popular so I'll see more into that.
~>

Collagen II (Chicken) Is new to me.
SAMe I hear is great for the joints too
Glycine / Lysine ~> I hear both are great for joint
Manganese, Hylaurinic Acid I hear also good.

List goes on! lol
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#7 Paularious

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 04:52 PM

I was having alot of chronic shoulder, elbow and hip pain last fall and i started taking Krill Oil and Astaxanthin. I was taking probably 8-20mg/ day astaxanthin and 1-2 g/day of Krill Oil. By the end the week i would say that 90% of the shoulder pain and 75% of the hip pain was gone.

Later in the year I installed a hot tub which also helps :-)

I also take a full stack of Sam-e, Glucosamine, chondrotin, MSM, Collagen II etc but i have never felt an effect or a change like when i started taking the Krill and Astaxanthin so it definitely filled a gap somewhere perhaps complimenting what i was already taking.

Has anyone else experienced this effect from Krill Oil or Astaxanthin?
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#8 Paularious

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 05:17 PM

Before i started taking Krill oil i was already high does fish oil. So just to clarify one thing that gets missed i think in discussions around fish and krill oil. They are not the same thing, similar but not the same.

Rather than repeat it all here is a link with some useful information

http://www.fourhourw...-than-fish-oil/
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#9 Brainfogged

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 05:21 PM

collagen type 2 is gelatin, buy gelatin instead. It´s much cheaper!
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#10 Luminosity

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:59 PM

Brainfogged indeed. The types of collagen are quite different. Also, not all reputed sources of type II collagen are that. Some are just types one and three which are cheaper. The brand I recommended is authentic at this time.

I tried astanthanthin but it didn't do anything for me. I'm glad it worked for you.

When I tried glucosamine and chondroitin years ago they didn't work for me. Recently I tried Cosamins which supposedly contain those things extracted from shellfish shells. It just causes joint pain.

Chicken cartilage Type II collagen naturally contains glucosamin, chondroitin and collagen which I find to be assimilable.

The key with nutrients is what is right for that person and what that person can assimilate. Maybe crab shells do contain glucosamin, but most people can't metabolize it in that form. MSM and collagen are frequently sold in pill form, but I feel they are only assimilated well in liquid solutions, preferably along with vitamin C.

One reason to take type II collagen is that our diet is deficient in those nutrients. Think about it, we eat only the muscle meats and throw half the animal away. Our muscles are relatively well-nourished but as people get older they develop problems with precisely the parts of the body we do not eat in animals; joints, cartilage, connective tissue, skin, eyes. Native peoples eat all of the animal. Traditional western cultures also utilized more of the animal such as calves foot jelly, soup stock made from bones and cartilage, bone marrow, organ meats, blood sausage.

MSM is also a good one because it is currently deficient in the soil and because our produce travels such a long way that this nutrient is gone by the time you eat it. If you take it properly you will have the best chance to see if it helps you.

Other than that, I would say that those injections you spoke about sound like a bad idea. Remember to eat well. Try to stay natural, and beware of megadoses. They can just put a strain on your body.

Edited by Luminosity, 07 April 2012 - 10:02 PM.

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#11 Brainfogged

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 01:39 AM

PRP injections might also help. Maybe if you are really bothered ;)
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#12 Steve_86

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:05 AM

Cissus works well but I think it is bad for the heart as it increases plasma 5-ht levels.
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#13 BDon

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:11 AM

Interesting ^ any study for this?
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#14 Steve_86

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:32 AM

Interesting ^ any study for this?


Yeah here you go: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1800848/

I wonder if there is another substance which could be taken to stop the increase in 5-ht?

It's a shame because cissus really helps my joints
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#15 snowbell

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:18 PM

Anyone ever tried Tart cherry extract for arthritis ?
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#16 nameless

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:09 PM

I considered tart cherry, but never tried it. I almost tried one of the CherryPURE supplements (I think VS and enzymatic makes them) as it has higher anthocyanins than most other brands. But I could never get the ingredient manufacturer to give me details on extraction methods, so I never bothered.

I have tried several things for joint pain -- pycnogenol, celadrin and briefly, msm. At best, perhaps they a had temporary benefit, but more likely it was just coincidence.

For myself, I found getting vitamin D into non-deficient range (32+) probably the most helpful. Something else that is probably a coincidence, but also seemed to help was when I changed to a more expensive fish oil. More likely the benefit was from taking antibiotics though, as I had Lyme, and after taking them for quite some time, I noticed some joint pain simply went away. My neck can still be a problem though sometimes... a little creaky.
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#17 BDon

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:35 PM

Good point Nameless,

Which fish oil are you refering to as expensive? I hear D-3, SAMe, High-dosing Omega-3, Cissus. does the body good. Cissus can have estrogenic effects though.

yeah my joints are just dry, stiff, achey/creaky.
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#18 nameless

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 02:33 AM

The fish oil I'm currently using is Nordic Naturals, the high concentrate ones, 2 pills daily, which is about 1100 mg. epa/dha daily. I wouldn't go super high dose, due to possible immune suppression (unless you have lupus or some autoimmune disease). I used to take much higher doses of fish oils, years ago, up to 3g/daily. I didn't notice any difference regarding joint pain relief when comparing high dose to my current dose.

The main reason I switched to nordic had nothing at all to do with joint issues. I had a coupon to drugstore.com, and the only two decent brands they had at the time was barleans and nordic. My previous bottle of barleans was overly fishy, so I just bought a big bottle of nordic instead. After a while, I noticed I no longer had any joint pain in my fingers... which very well could have been a coincidence or due to previous use of antibiotics. Or maybe my previous fish oil was simply bad.
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#19 JChief

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 02:44 AM

I know it's been said before but give MSM a try.
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#20 Brainfogged

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 06:06 AM

  • Cissus
  • MSM
  • Glucosamine
  • Silicon
  • Chondriotin
  • Galactolipids (GOPO, Rosa Canina L)
  • Gelatin
  • Fish oil
  • Vitamin C
  • Nandrolone
  • Prehab/rehab
  • Icepacks
As stated earlier PRP injections might help but if anything cortisone shots will take the pain away.
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#21 BDon

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 07:52 PM

Nameless so super-dosing omega-3 would be useless? But better for body-recomposition (getting leaner, etc).
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#22 nameless

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:23 PM

I wouldn't say useless, but the effects probably aren't what you are looking for. If you have an autoimmune disease, I could see it possibly helping there. Perhaps those with super high triglycerides would get some benefit, although dietary changes would be a better option.

One downside is immune suppression. It doesn't really take much EPA to reduce NK cell activity --
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11237929

It is possible there could be some immune modulation going on, instead of immune suppression. Although I do recall a couple of DHA studies showing other immune markers going down too (possibly due to vit E being depleted). There was also an algae DHA study a while back showing oxidation in the body due to the DHA --

http://www.futurepun...ves/006499.html

The study design was flawed based on dosing, so there is no way to know what the optimal dose is. But it does seem to indicate that too much DHA = bad.

I haven't looked into Omega 3s and muscle mass, or anything like that, so afraid I can't help there. I'd think overall health though would be the priority, so if even it did help with muscle building, the downsides probably would outweigh that.

Edited by nameless, 14 April 2012 - 08:23 PM.

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#23 BDon

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:34 PM

My primary source of protein is mainly fish overseas throughout the whole summer in Spain. So I am sure i'd be getting trace amounts of EPA/DHA daily as I eat a lot of fish everyday! trust me everyday! so probably no need for a super-dosing of omega-3. Typically you want a high EPA value over DHA correct? DHA isn't important? I notice more companies are making a DHA based omega-3 why is this? My other question is do you want a ration of 3:2 EPA to DHA or 3:1? Yes if I am looking for joint-health mainly 3g of EPA/DHA combined should be enough?
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#24 nameless

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:44 PM

3g EPA/DHA is too much. If you are eating fish daily, you really have no need to supplement Omega 3s at all -- unless you are eating baby-sized servings.

Most fish oil supplements are higher in EPA than DHA. Most Algae supplements are either all DHA, or have a ratio where DHA is greater than EPA. As for fish oil, it's just the way they manufacture it, and probably also has to do with the fact they use sardines and anchovies a lot. Algae starts off as DHA, which is why most are DHA only.

Both EPA and DHA are important. Fish (not oil, but real fish) are typically higher in DHA than EPA. But I believe sardines/anchovies are closer to a 1:1 ratio (if I recall correctly).

As for ideal ratios... I'm not sure if anyone has an answer. Higher EPA ratios may help mood and depression more than DHA. For joint pain/inflammation, a higher EPA ratio may be beneficial. For brain structure, higher DHA may be better. If it was me, and you eat tons of fish, I wouldn't worry about supplementing omega 3s at all. You may wish to get your mercury levels tested, but you are probably fine in regard to Omega 3 intake.

Edited by nameless, 14 April 2012 - 08:46 PM.

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#25 BDon

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:52 PM

Thank you!
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#26 BDon

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 08:53 PM

Regarding mercury content I don't eat fish at all in the US throughout the year just summer.
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#27 Atropy

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:20 AM

Is it alright to take Bovine gelatin powder, Whey protein isolate and glucosomine in the same shake?Will there be competition for absorption between the 2 protein sources?
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