11 replies to this topic

[VerdeGo]

Hi,

Very soon I'll be trying out sulbutiamine and pramiracetam, each individually, and I was wondering if you could impart any last minute advice. I'll post my experiences in this thread shortly. I'm familiar with your forums and have done quite a bit of research, but I'm getting my facts straight by posting here. I'd love to hear your advice.

Do both need to be taken with a choline source? Will ALCAR work better than lecithin capsules? I'm a big fan of ALCAR. Right now I'm cycling between L-carnitine liquid and ALCAR. I had to stop taking L-tyrosine because of tolerance. I've just started my journey into nootropics.

I read that sulbutiamine is fat soluble, so it should be taken on a full stomach. If I need to take ALCAR or another choline supplement, do I it at the same time as sulb? Before, during, or after a meal? Sorry for getting technical. I just want to make the most out of my experience,

Should sulb be cycled to avoid tolerance? I read tolerance is inevitable. Should I take pram every day and are there any drug interactions with either? I take creatine on the days I work out (roughly 3 times a week), I drink mostly beer on occasion and smoke a minimal amount of marijuana just before I go to bed.

Also, are such nootropics broken down in the liver? A study I saw tonight, http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11387954 , said this:

The kidney had the highest concentration of pramiracetam; the liver had the next highest concentration, and then the intestine, lung, muscle, heart, gonad, spleen and sebum had the high concentration in order. The drug was also detected in the brain. 0.7% of the given dose was excreted in unchanged form in bile in 24 hours. 28.26% and 6.35% were excreted in urine and feces respectively in 72 hours. The plasma protein combining rate detected by the method of

balance

dialysis was 20.1-22.2%.

I'm wondering if I should stop taking creatine because of kidney health, especially if either of these nootropics adversely affects the kidneys or the liver. Is there any real strain on those organs from taking consistent, multiple doses of nootropics?

Hope you can share your wisdom and give me any last advice before I start my journey.

[VerdeGo]

OK not much feedback from here, so I went ahead anyway.

Day 1: I started sulbutiamine on the wrong day apparently. I had to wake up early, was up late the night before, and I had taken 7.5 mg of hydrocodone the evening before for a toothache. That was my last dose after four days of using hydrocodone and I'm not an addict to the stuff, but it definitely made me feel like I was "under water" or lethargic in my thinking the following day after taking such nasty stuff (the Lortab, that is). I took L-Carnitine liquid (which includes B vitamins) and ALCAR with a small dose, probably 200 mg of sulbutiamine just before a lunch date with a girl I know. I felt fearless, no anxiety, and despite my tiredness I didn't care about analyzing other people's reactions to my own actions. I even kissed the girl on the lips as she dropped me off, though we've never kissed before. But by the time I arrived to work and took more ALCAR I felt like I was going to faint...my feet were swimming with air and my hands and feet were clammy. The words kept pouring out of my mouth with cohesive conversation but I kept my distance from people until I "came down" a bit and got some better focus. I was completely wiped out by the end of the night.

Day 2: I took a low dose of pramiracetam, 150 mg or so. I felt a better focus and clarity, with colors becoming more intense and I found myself Googling the drug much more, and reading detailed reports. Motivation did not increase. I took some ALCAR and drove to work and the music was rather intense. I had also taken a bit of L-tyrosine (just a dab on the tongue) and it resulted in sporadic laughing fits on the car ride there, but within an hour or two I started to crash...hard. I just felt completely drained and tired, and no amount of L-carnitine liquid or ALCAR could wake me back up. I had a few beers after I got home and took more L-carnitine liquid and felt wonderful again, completely focused. And motivated. I've found L-carnitine liquid is great after a beer or two for motivation and clarity. Never fails.

Day 3 (today): I woke up, took 200 mg of sulb and 100 mg or so more, with a bit of ALCAR. After taking ALCAR I felt a bit speedy and uncertain. Went to Walmart for an oil change and things were more pronounced, lucid, yet I lacked the total confidence I felt the day before on the ride to work. Once I returned home I took no other supplements and thoroughly cleaned my entire house, then felt a great sense of exaltation as I finished and settled into the evening with a movie, taking an occasional smoke on the lanai and looking up at the stars under a cool, crisp evening here in Florida. Everything was beautiful, I had total confidence (+8 hrs after sulb) and a smile crept across my face multiple times. I even played my piano even though I haven't touched it in years and I had no qualms talking to women through text and on dating sites... Keep in mind I had a beer then took some L-carnitine liquid as usual and it was a blast of fresh air...but more so than usual. I think the underlying good feeling comes from the sulb. And now I suddenly feel the motivation and drive to contribute to this log. This was truly a wonderful day, though I couldn't really pinpoint any specific feelings. Except for just after taking the sulb in the morning, I felt a little high, focused...but without the intoxication or speediness.

A little about me... I have looked all my life for substances to increase motivation and decrease social anxiety. On the outside I am quite normal, but I thrive for social interaction and want to talk to women and be an Alpha male, which I am not. I first started with GHB, and that made me walk up and talk to complete strangers with no fear ... and to this day it was the ONLY true mood enhancer. No matter the situation, when I took it I became completely happy. Not even alcohol or marijuana can do that for me. I since looked for things that affected GABA or GHB receptors, so phenibut was the next thing I experimented with, but it was no where close to GHB's effects, and tolerance built up quickly. I soon had to give up.

Flash forward to about 10 years later. Tried Oxytocin but it was more of a placebo effect and while the love hormone is interesting, it wasn't what I was expecting as far as motivation and being outgoing is concerned. Then I tried L-tyrosine...WOW. I felt very talkative and happy...and for a week I felt on top of the world. No fear, just wanted to live life to the fullest. Obviously from the effect on dopamine. Then tolerance built up and I started on ALCAR... again, WOW. Tolerance built up to the powder form and I took the liquid L-carnitine, and as long as I take it in the right situations both carnitines have helped tremendously with being more outgoing and talkative. No fear, no hesitation in talking to strangers, but they lack the motivation of GHB and the consistent feeling of being high on life and that anything is possible. If anything I have to dose constantly and the effects only last a short while.

Now this takes me to sulb. I heard addiction is bad and tolerance is a bitch. But today I felt good. Not that high... just calm, focused, and content. I don't know how much is to contribute to sulb or just a good, relaxing day off. I'm already pretty level-headed and happy most of the time, but after tasting total freedom with GHB ten yeas ago I will always search for the true mood elevator and socializing molecule that I came to know and love. It seems anything that is that great is a double-edged sword and has its own consequences. For GHB it was taking just a few sips too much and passing out, but if timed appropriately I could induce astral projection.

Some people say prami helps with psychic notions, and being a former ghost hunter I find that interesting, but I also find sulb much more interesting than the racetams right now. I want to live in the now, not the past. I'm more interested in life than death.. And I heard racetams bring up past memories all too easily.

Can anyone recommend something that would suit my needs better? I will continue to update you. As I stated above, L-carnitine (with b vitamins) and ALCAR seem to be the best motivators for social interaction I've found (especially combined with alcohol...along with l-tyrosine, as long as tolerance doesn't develop), and I remain sharp and witty while on them. I guess I will continuing searching. But I must say I haven't felt this awake since ten years ago.

[dsohei]

since alcar and carnitine help you so much, start the research there, simply. perhaps you just need more choline or choline precursors. you also are dealing with other drugs that have easy tolerance thresholds and or addictive/damaging issues. try the simple substances and explanations first before getting into more complex drugs.

[Ted0923]

Hey VerdeGo,

Are you still taking Pramiracetam and Sulbutiamine?

I would like to hear how you're doing still with those nootropics

[VerdeGo]

I take carnitine every day, cycle tyrosine for a few weeks every month, and between cycles do a small amount of sulbutiamine. I've noticed less is more with these supplements so I take far below the recommended dosages and still get the motivated, positive outlook on life. Things are great!

[xsiv1]

Good to hear. I've ordered some sub and like you, used to love the pro-social effects of GHB over a decade ago. Like others, we quickly found out that it was indeed a perilous road traveled. Phenibut was also very nice until tolerance developed. I tapered off it and can still use it on occasion but it wasn't without some trial and error that I successfully broke the dependence I had unwittingly picked up. Lessons learned. I'm a fan of aniracetam and occasional Piracetam. Do you quickly develop tolerance to sulbutiamine or do you just end up feeling crappy after extended use? I'm just revising my supplement regimen to keep mixing things up every 3-6 months and for some compounds, I'll take them sparingly through the week. Any kind of gaba acting compounds are being used sparingly aside from Ashwaghanda at this time.

[lifebuddy]

Very interesting stuff. I'm gonna order some and get experimenting. I love pramiracetam, and every day usage doesn't seem to affect its usefulness.

GHB is a bed wetter!!!!

[sapaiderman]

verdego's posts here inspired me to buy subultiamine, but it doesn't do anything for me at all and just sits in the cupboard unused

Very interesting stuff. I'm gonna order some and get experimenting. I love pramiracetam, and every day usage doesn't seem to affect its usefulness.

what dosage are you taking of prami and are you taking it with anything else?

[lifebuddy]

I am a racetam lover, so that is most of my stack. Pram was the longest to take effect. When I first started it, it cut out all of the others to see if I could notice anything. Nothing at first - it takes much longer than the others to work. Weeks. I use 400-600mg. I also consume choline daily in the form of lecithin, and am working my way through a bottle of foul tasting deprenyl.

Edited by lifebuddy, 29 November 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[xsiv1]

Good to hear. I've ordered some sub and like you, used to love the pro-social effects of GHB over a decade ago. Like others, we quickly found out that it was indeed a perilous road traveled. Phenibut was also very nice until tolerance developed. I tapered off it and can still use it on occasion but it wasn't without some trial and error that I successfully broke the dependence I had unwittingly picked up. Lessons learned. I'm a fan of aniracetam and occasional Piracetam. Do you quickly develop tolerance to sulbutiamine or do you just end up feeling crappy after extended use? I'm just revising my supplement regimen to keep mixing things up every 3-6 months and for some compounds, I'll take them sparingly through the week. Any kind of gaba acting compounds are being used sparingly aside from Ashwaghanda at this time.

Can anyone answer the above question in bold or is this site kind of dead with regards to Nootropics? As an aside, and if anyone actually reads this...I'm on my 3rd day of Noopept at only 10mgs at 9:30am.At 6:30am, I take a couple aniracetam, and some choline with my usual vits/mins/efas. I'm liking Noopept only for it's motivational properties and I feel it...sort of stimulant like to an extent. I intend on taking weekends off for the Npept and discontinuing it after 3 mths of use. I'm finding nowadays, for me, it's best to cycle on and off various noots.

[VerdeGo]

You can develop tolerance over repeated sulb use, and I've noticed a "crappy" feeling the following day even when there is no tolerance. So the answer to your question is YES and YES. But when done in moderation and low amounts (I'm sensitive to this kind of stuff so I get effects from an amount well below the recommended dose) it has benefits, especially when doing it on a day of physical activity like canoeing or helping someone move. It's also great for sex, it improves your mood (nowhere near gamma did), and can increase motivation in the right setting. Don't take with tyrosine, because they each have a different effect on dopamine. I personally will use sulb about once a week for 3 to 4 weeks, then stop and cycle tyrosine for a few weeks (low dose every day), then switch back to sulb. The sulb starts to lose effectiveness when you're doing it multiple times a week for a few weeks.

The ALCAR has changed my life the most, cleared up my thinking, and given me direction and focus. The tyrosine and sulbutiamine are great complimentary supplements. In the past 9 months since I started using these supplements, I've bought a house, bought a canoe, did landscaping on my property, found an awesome girlfriend, along with multiple other things to be thankful for. Never take for granted what you have, and always strive to better yourself.

One last sidenote... I've found that it's a lot easier to keep emotions in check, especially those involving women, developing feelings, etc. I use to fall hard all the time but now I'm the one in control, or at least I'd like to think that. Just before ALCAR I was in a brutal relationship that I kept going and even flew to California after she moved to try and fix. It was a dead end road. One month after ALCAR I found a great woman by chance, have taken things extremely slow, and haven't even used the L word yet and it's been 7 months. Also not a single argument. So I don't know what it is, but there seems to be a little magic about it. I use the law of attraction to focus on things I'd like to materialize in my life, and the ALCAR and others seem to help my overall focus on what I want to happen in life.

Good luck!

[xsiv1]

Quite interesting effects from ALCAR. For me, it definitely makes me more focused and alert. I've used Sulb 3 times and can notice it. I only used it once per day and intend on using it on days where I'll need some extra boost in combination with either aniracetam or piracetam. I've also taken Noopept for 4 days and it's effects are similar in that there's enhanced focus cognitively and perhaps a bit more motivation. I don't take it on weekends and intend on tapering off (day on, day off route) before I take a 2-3 month break from it. I find that out of the racetams, aniracetam is definitely the most anxiolytic. I like that part of it. I'm big on direct Gaba-ergic compounds (barring benzos which do nothing for me but make me sleep) and in their absence, I've taken to L-theanine with some caffeine and some Bacopa. I've also incorporated Ashwaghanda and some Maca into my regimen above my go-to daily vits/mins/efas. Can't remark on any of them except to say that L-theanine has a subtle calming effect on me. I'm quite leery of it's tolerance profile so I'll discontinue it's use soon. I do have a bottle of centro which I've yet to try and am pretty sensitive to any stimulants (except caffeine, unless over done) so I'll try some with cautious optimism. Basically I like to keep trying to rotate those compounds that one can develop a tolerance to. L-Tyrosine and I don't get along since it's tends to make me irritable even in small doses. I much prefer the effect I get from DLPA, some B6 & Vitamin C taken in combination with each other. It provides a decent mood lift on the days I do take it although I try and relegate it to a couple times per week.

Thanks for the response man, and you're right...be thankful for what you have and not what you don't have. You never know what the day will bring. ; )